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(Some Damn Yankee)   Who is the second-worst infielder of all time, going all the way back to 1871? (Hint: he's an active player)   (hardballtimes.com) divider line 147
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6714 clicks; posted to Sports » on 28 May 2009 at 2:58 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-05-28 12:46:43 PM  
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd the Yankees Suck. Theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Yankees Suck!
 
2009-05-28 12:48:01 PM  
I'm going with the Yankees.

Pretty much all of them.
 
2009-05-28 12:48:03 PM  
How dare you call me out in that headline.
 
2009-05-28 12:48:56 PM  
If you had to read the link to figure out who the worst defensive shortstop in recent baseball history is, you haven't been paying attention.

Yes, he dives a lot. I would dive a lot if you put me out there too, because I'm also too slow to play the position, and lots of fieldable grounders would roll past me.
 
2009-05-28 12:48:57 PM  
I'm guessing Derek Jeter. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team. His defense has always been sub-par. Yeah, yeah, great leader, good (not great) offensive stats, but defensively terrible.
 
2009-05-28 12:51:40 PM  
And they say Dungeons and Dragons players are geeky.
 
2009-05-28 12:51:47 PM  
That is one ugly-ass website.
 
2009-05-28 12:52:04 PM  
Damn, that guy did a lot of math to confirm what we were all thinking.
 
2009-05-28 12:53:03 PM  
Lando Lincoln: And they say Dungeons and Dragons players are geeky.

Give them time. We baseball geeks have a hundred year head start on the D&D dorks on honing our geekiness.
 
2009-05-28 12:53:48 PM  
Lando Lincoln: And they say Dungeons and Dragons players are geeky.

Little known fact: Derek Jeter sucks at Dungeons and Dragons.
 
2009-05-28 12:55:56 PM  
chimp_ninja: Lando Lincoln: And they say Dungeons and Dragons players are geeky.

Little known fact: Derek Jeter sucks at Dungeons and Dragons.


Well, at least on defense.
 
2009-05-28 12:56:08 PM  
Hey good job. You made baseball even more boring.
 
2009-05-28 01:05:52 PM  
Ok, that's hilarious. He was more impressive when he was playing for Columbus, which I think I saw him at the couple games I went to when I was younger with my grandfather.
 
2009-05-28 01:08:28 PM  
Adjective Bird Whiskey: Hey good job. You made baseball even more boring.

img5.imageshack.us
 
2009-05-28 01:28:33 PM  
Adjective Bird Whiskey: Hey good job. You made baseball even more boring.

Hey now. We've had far too many interesting statistics lately from Nate Silver. It is good to see boring make a return to its home in statistical analysis.
 
2009-05-28 01:31:23 PM  
It seems to me that with the availability of computers these days, all permutations and combinations of every single set of historical statistics in baseball could already have been added, subtracted, multiplied or divided by all possible sets of all of the others, and any player could be shown to be better than any other player, by some metric that someone would feel was important, probably because it showed that a hero of their team was good or a hero of another was bad. For instance, if you multiply Ted Williams' lifetime batting average by his ERA, he's a god, but if you divide he's a slacker.

When I was a kid, everything you needed to know fit on the back of a baseball card, and you got a stick of very durable bubble gum too.
 
2009-05-28 01:34:12 PM  
img43.imageshack.us

/one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good
 
2009-05-28 01:39:12 PM  
Ron Hubbard?
 
aba
2009-05-28 01:46:52 PM  
Sure, he's horrible at defense, and we all know that...But how many of the Maxim Top 100 hottest women has subby/Author slept with?
 
2009-05-28 01:50:28 PM  
Heinie Sand.

Wow, now that's a great baseball name. This guy just surpassed Clyde Klutz on my All Star list. Didn't he play designated hissyfitter for the Cleveland Pantywaists until he was traded to the Virginia Silicosi?
 
2009-05-28 02:19:45 PM  
the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Yeah, good thing he made that play or else the Yankees would have lost to the A's instead of the Diamondbacks that year.


/Mr. November my aching ass
 
2009-05-28 02:30:09 PM  
I miss Ozzie.
 
2009-05-28 02:34:38 PM  
yogaFLAME: I miss Ozzie.

So do I, dammit.

/Padre fan
 
2009-05-28 02:43:03 PM  
Nabb1: I'm guessing Derek Jeter. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team. His defense has always been sub-par. Yeah, yeah, great leader, good (not great) offensive stats, but defensively terrible.

If a 315 lifetime BA with over 1500 runs scored over 1,000 RBI's and the likelyhood of reaching over 3000 hits (as a shortstop no less)are just average offensive stats to you, then I'm guessing your baseball knowledge woudn't fill a thimble
 
2009-05-28 02:54:41 PM  
gridlocksammy: Nabb1: I'm guessing Derek Jeter. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team. His defense has always been sub-par. Yeah, yeah, great leader, good (not great) offensive stats, but defensively terrible.

If a 315 lifetime BA with over 1500 runs scored over 1,000 RBI's and the likelyhood of reaching over 3000 hits (as a shortstop no less)are just average offensive stats to you, then I'm guessing your baseball knowledge woudn't fill a thimble


You're right. I gave the career offensive numbers short shrift. My mistake. I was thinking more of recent production. His numbers were down last year, but he seems to be doing better so far this year. I notice you aren't sticking up for his defense.
 
2009-05-28 03:01:20 PM  
Nabb1: gridlocksammy: Nabb1: I'm guessing Derek Jeter. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team. His defense has always been sub-par. Yeah, yeah, great leader, good (not great) offensive stats, but defensively terrible.

If a 315 lifetime BA with over 1500 runs scored over 1,000 RBI's and the likelyhood of reaching over 3000 hits (as a shortstop no less)are just average offensive stats to you, then I'm guessing your baseball knowledge woudn't fill a thimble

You're right. I gave the career offensive numbers short shrift. My mistake. I was thinking more of recent production. His numbers were down last year, but he seems to be doing better so far this year. I notice you aren't sticking up for his defense.


and good doesn't mean average.

/happy no Eckstein on this list
 
2009-05-28 03:01:46 PM  
I was forced to guess Julio Lugo. I was pleasantly surprised.
 
2009-05-28 03:03:46 PM  
the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Best goddamned play I ever saw.
 
2009-05-28 03:04:33 PM  
aba: Sure, he's horrible at defense, and we all know that...But how many of the Maxim Top 100 hottest women has subby/Author slept with?

Beards.
 
2009-05-28 03:04:56 PM  
Mark Belanger won like 10 gold gloves at short stop for Baltimore back in the 70's. He was also THE WORST offensive short stop in the history of the world over that time.

You can make stats say almost anything.
 
2009-05-28 03:08:26 PM  
Brooks Robinson representin'

imagecache.allposters.com
 
2009-05-28 03:08:30 PM  
OK, so that article made my head hurt, as things with math often do. BUT -- correct me if I am wrong here -- does this formula not rely heavily on data that does not exist?

Also, was there really a MLB player named Heinie Sand?

I call shenanigans on the whole bidness.
 
2009-05-28 03:09:38 PM  
The Dynamite Monkey: the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Best goddamned play I ever saw.


Jason Giambi deserves an assist on that out for not using what passes for a brain in that thick skull and not sliding. At least, the play might have been closer if Posada had to reach further to get the tag.
 
2009-05-28 03:10:16 PM  
Oh, please let it be David Eckstein.

[Checks] Well, nearly as good. But, of course it should have course say "defensive infielder", and also it should say "relative to others playing his position".

lunchinlewis: Mark Belanger won like 10 gold gloves at short stop for Baltimore back in the 70's. He was also THE WORST offensive short stop in the history of the world over that time.

You can make stats say almost anything.


The stats say Belanger was a brilliant defensive SS, second only to the Wizard of Oz in the modern era. And I've never seen any offensive metric that said anything other than terrible with the bat in his hand. Whether you like RBI's or OPS+, Belanger sucked with the bat.
 
2009-05-28 03:13:05 PM  
Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball, I have to wonder if the person making the claim has watched the Indians at all for the past few seasons. I can't believe that Jeter has a worse range than Jhonny Peralta.
 
2009-05-28 03:13:38 PM  
Hmmm, Hal Chase scores very very badly, but nearly all his contemporaries said he was
a) a total scumbag
b) the greatest defensive 1B whoever lived...

Interesting...
 
2009-05-28 03:13:45 PM  
Nabb1: Jason Giambi deserves an assist on that out for not using what passes for a brain in that thick skull and not sliding. At least, the play might have been closer if Posada had to reach further to get the tag.

I agree with you. But if Jeter doesn't make that ridiculous shovel pass, he wouldn't have had to slide, and he didn't expect he'd have to.
 
2009-05-28 03:17:05 PM  
Jeter would make a lot more plays if he wasn't busy holding A-Rod's dick.
 
2009-05-28 03:17:43 PM  
senorpogo: Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball,

That's not (quite) what is being said. They say he's been a poor SS, for a very long time. Peralta won't get the chance to build up that much cumulative defensive suck, because he doesn't hit like the young Jeter.
 
2009-05-28 03:18:12 PM  
I immediately guessed Jeter, I'm glad I was right.

But then, I guess it was sort of obvious.
 
2009-05-28 03:22:09 PM  
www.cbc.ca
is amused.
 
2009-05-28 03:25:20 PM  
gwowen: senorpogo: Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball,

That's not (quite) what is being said. They say he's been a poor SS, for a very long time. Peralta won't get the chance to build up that much cumulative defensive suck, because he doesn't hit like the young Jeter.


I didn't mean this specific article/measure, but rather the general conversation that always seems to follow in the wake of such articles.

Truly bad defensive middle infielders don't stay middle infielders for long. They either get shipped out of the league or relocated to somewhere else on the diamond (usually early in their career).

So while Jeter may be the worst of the guys who can cut it at shortstop, he's nowhere NEAR the worst infielder of all time like the headline suggests.
 
2009-05-28 03:33:06 PM  
congrats stat geek with a grudge! next week an 82 page random stats account on why Mariano Rivera is the worst closer in modern history and you'll have achieved "stat geek for a bad baseball site" hall of fame status.

that much work to make your point actually works against your objective.

I find "Jeter sucks!" seems to do the trick a lot better.
 
2009-05-28 03:33:37 PM  
raccoon2k: Brooks Robinson representin'

Brooks and Belanger.

Best left side of infield ever?
 
2009-05-28 03:34:11 PM  
Bid McPhee 4 1882-1899 9585 251.3

Just wanted to point out that by ~1890 every other second baseman had adopted the new-fangled "wearing a glove" strategy. McPhee never did. The last 9-10 years or so of his career, he was the only one not wearing a glove. And he still was a better fielder than the lot of them.

/I know way too much about 19th century baseball
 
2009-05-28 03:34:59 PM  
gwowen: senorpogo: Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball,

That's not (quite) what is being said. They say he's been a poor SS, for a very long time. Peralta won't get the chance to build up that much cumulative defensive suck, because he doesn't hit like the young Jeter.


But Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball (out of starters, at least). If you compare him to Peralta, Jeter has slightly worse range, and is much worse at turning DPs. Peralta makes more errors, but not a lot more.

Jeter's actually been getting a bit better, though. Over the last two seasons, he's looked roughly average. Bravo!
 
2009-05-28 03:35:46 PM  
Nabb1: The Dynamite Monkey: the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Best goddamned play I ever saw.

Jeremy Giambi deserves an assist on that out for not using what passes for a brain in that thick skull and not sliding. At least, the play might have been closer if Posada had to reach further to get the tag.


Seriously, man. Slide, you asshole.
 
2009-05-28 03:37:11 PM  
Yes, these results are flawed. And so long as we bear that in mind, they're better than no results.

Um, no, flawed results aren't better than no results.
 
2009-05-28 03:42:07 PM  
DeWayne Mann:
But Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball (out of starters, at least). If you compare him to Peralta, Jeter has slightly worse range, and is much worse at turning DPs. Peralta makes more errors, but not a lot more.


Do you a source/link with said info?

Not trying to be hard here. Not saying it doesn't exist. I'd just like to look at it.

I just seriously have trouble believing than anyone out there has worse range than JP.
 
2009-05-28 03:44:26 PM  
It was Jeremy Giambi I think.
 
2009-05-28 03:49:03 PM  
Obviously, his study is legitimate because he has Brooks Robinson as #1.

/have a BR autographed baseball - only autograph I've ever owned. Only one I'll ever need.
 
2009-05-28 03:51:14 PM  
Farkomatic: Obviously, his study is legitimate because he has Brooks Robinson as #1.

/have a BR autographed baseball - only autograph I've ever owned. Only one I'll ever need.


I have a Brooks autographed program, and a ball with Nolan Ryan, and Rod Carew's autograph.
 
2009-05-28 03:53:59 PM  
Heheheheh...Glasscock.
 
2009-05-28 04:00:24 PM  
i looked at the lists, saw Graig Nettles at the "top of" something, and realized this list is about as relevant to wins/losses as a list of the players with the most blackheads on their nose.

/Knew I shouldn't have gotten rid of that card....
static.baseballtoaster.com
//hotlinked
 
2009-05-28 04:02:20 PM  
senorpogo: Do you a source/link with said info?

Not trying to be hard here. Not saying it doesn't exist. I'd just like to look at it.

I just seriously have trouble believing than anyone out there has worse range than JP.


Yeah, no problem. Fangraphs.com lists UZR data, updated every Sunday. Here's Jeter's page, and here's Jhonny. They've both been pretty bad. You'll want to look at RngR (which is Range Runs Above Average), and you'll probably want to convert it to some sort of rate statistic (RngR/Inn would probably work well) to get a clear picture, since they have different amounts of playing time. Also, note that UZR only goes back to 2002 at this point.

Really, they're about equal, but Peralta's been positive this season, unlike Jeter, so I gave him the edge.
 
2009-05-28 04:04:10 PM  
gwowen: Hmmm, Hal Chase scores very very badly, but nearly all his contemporaries said he was
a) a total scumbag
b) the greatest defensive 1B whoever lived...

Interesting...


Defensive stats are iffy to begin with, but they really fail at first base. There are a couple reasons; one is that 1B plays "out of position" a lot by holding a runner on, so it screws up the plus/minus. Another reason is because "defense" to 1B is more about catching throws than fielding grounders. For example, Derrick Lee always scores horribly, but if you watch him dig out throws, you know he is good.

senorpogo: gwowen:
Truly bad defensive middle infielders don't stay middle infielders for long. They either get shipped out of the league or relocated to somewhere else on the diamond (usually early in their career).

So while Jeter may be the worst of the guys who can cut it at shortstop, he's nowhere NEAR the worst infielder of all time like the headline suggests.


It is debatable if Jeter can cut it at SS is the issue. Clearly, the worst infielder of all time probably never made it out of little league. Unfortunately for Jeter, he can only be compared to other major league SSs, but that is the most fair comparison that can be made.

/if you even get a cup of coffee in the big leagues, you are in the top 99.99999% of all baseball players ever, but you can still suck.
 
2009-05-28 04:05:00 PM  
his 4 world series rings must be a fluke
 
2009-05-28 04:06:01 PM  
the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Worst play ever. A's should've won.The Dynamite Monkey: the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Best goddamned play I ever saw.


Most hated play I ever saw, aside from the 'tuck rule'.
 
2009-05-28 04:06:33 PM  
DeWayne Mann: Really, they're about equal, but Peralta's been positive this season, unlike Jeter, so I gave him the edge.

Thanks. I'll check it out.
 
2009-05-28 04:11:56 PM  
senorpogo: Thanks. I'll check it out.

You also might want to check out The Fielding Bible (which also comes in book form, with far, FAR more data). Jeter tends to rank last among SS with their plus/minus rating, while Peralta tends to hang around average. In a minute I'll go grab my copy of the book & let you know if they have any more insight on Jhonny.
 
2009-05-28 04:13:00 PM  
What scissor may look like:
www.scissormetimbers.com
 
2009-05-28 04:23:40 PM  
DeWayne Mann: You also might want to check out The Fielding Bible (which also comes in book form, with far, FAR more data). Jeter tends to rank last among SS with their plus/minus rating, while Peralta tends to hang around average. In a minute I'll go grab my copy of the book & let you know if they have any more insight on Jhonny.

Ok, the fielding bible book does have a short blurb on Jhonny:

"Peralta's fielding skills are often derided, but there are more deserving targets for this kind of scorn. Peralta makes most of the routine plays and ranked in the top five in assists with 427 (granted, the Indians' staff was a groundball staff). He can make accurate throws from almost any position and does a nice job on the double play. His biggest flaw is more mental than physical: he has a tendency to panic and rush his throws when he doesn't field the ball cleanly."

In Jeter's blurb, they mention that his bad arm requires him to play shallower than most SSs. That could be the difference in their ranges: Peralta simply plays back a bit, letting him get to a few more balls while relying on his arm.
 
2009-05-28 04:28:09 PM  
the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

was one of the best plays of all time, so vieled stabs at someone who plays average defense are pointless.

he definitely has the hardware to prove he is great, and will eventually be in the HoF as well as having his # retired on the most prolific baseball franchise of all time.
 
2009-05-28 04:32:58 PM  
tforbes: he definitely has the hardware to prove he is great

Because there's no way the 'hardware' can be wrong, right? Who cares if you only played 28 games at the position?
 
2009-05-28 04:36:53 PM  
but.but.but he dove in the stands to catch a ball!!
even though he had plenty of time to stop, making the dive so unnecessary he could be on the Italian national soccer team
 
2009-05-28 04:37:48 PM  
vanhalenfan32: congrats stat geek with a grudge! next week an 82 page random stats account on why Mariano Rivera is the worst closer in modern history and you'll have achieved "stat geek for a bad baseball site" hall of fame status.

that much work to make your point actually works against your objective.

I find "Jeter sucks!" seems to do the trick a lot better.


Jesus, you're dumb.
 
2009-05-28 04:38:04 PM  
Wow, this is ground breaking, let me tell you. Is this the same mathematician who "proved" Jeter is a terrible shortstop 3 or 4 years ago, or someone else with an axe to grind?

First, let's cover the things the numbers don't talk about. Does anyone ever feel the need to mention the various amazing plays he's made? I know you've talked about the play against Oakland...but what about the diving catch into the stands against the Red Sox? How many grabs in shallow center have we seen from him?

Is he the greatest shortstop ever? Probably not. But a shortstop is the total of his fielding ability, his hitting ability, and yes, his clubhouse and teamwork abilities. Here are some numbers that are often overlooked:

4 world series rings
9 all star appearances (most likely to become 10 this year)
3 gold gloves
3 silver sluggers
1 - total number of players to be both the All Star and World Series MVP in one year (and that would be none other than Derek Jeter)

So take your second rate shortstop, who has *either* great defense *or* great offense, and hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.
 
2009-05-28 04:45:26 PM  
I always find these threads laughable. Jeter is getting old, yes, but he's far from the 2nd worst MLB infielder ever. Defensive ranking are not as refined as offensive analysis. Could Jeter's numbers have anything to do with the infield at Yankee stadium (bad hops, quick infield, et al)? For as terrible as he (allegedly) is, it's amazing that he's managed to keep that position in the one of the toughest baseball cities in the world. It's also amazing that he will probably be a first ballot hall of famer. Not bad for a guy that sucks. :-/

Where is Jimmy Rollins rank among active players? Because he, to me, if the best shortstop in the game.
 
2009-05-28 04:45:53 PM  
wmichaelis: hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.
 
2009-05-28 04:46:38 PM  
Wow, with such a terrible shortstop and team captain, this team has got to be in the basement, right??

Right?


Wait, what?

and please, YTG, shock me with your "runs scored differential" statistical malarkey.
 
2009-05-28 04:47:25 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

I'm sorry, four rings is irrelevant?
 
2009-05-28 04:49:59 PM  
murp0837: Not bad for a guy that sucks. :-/

You do understand this is about defense, right? No one is arguing that he hasn't been an excellent offensive shortstop, but aside from a couple of highlight reel plays over a, what, 13-yr career, his defense in unquestionably bad.

Is it time yet for the Mnookin quote? To paraphrase - people think Jeter is good at short because he makes routine plays look spectacular.
 
2009-05-28 04:50:13 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: wmichaelis: hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.


Why, exactly, are my numbers irrelevant? Forget them all, if you want, except for the 3 Gold Gloves. How do you explain that one?
 
2009-05-28 04:50:17 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

How are any of those stats irrelevant? Seriously, dude. So, as a BoSox fan, you are telling me that you would have preferred to have the platoon at SS instead of Jeter for the last 14 years?
 
2009-05-28 04:51:26 PM  
wmichaelis: Wow, this is ground breaking, let me tell you. Is this the same mathematician who "proved" Jeter is a terrible shortstop 3 or 4 years ago, or someone else with an axe to grind?

First, let's cover the things the numbers don't talk about. Does anyone ever feel the need to mention the various amazing plays he's made? I know you've talked about the play against Oakland...but what about the diving catch into the stands against the Red Sox? How many grabs in shallow center have we seen from him?

Is he the greatest shortstop ever? Probably not. But a shortstop is the total of his fielding ability, his hitting ability, and yes, his clubhouse and teamwork abilities. Here are some numbers that are often overlooked:

4 world series rings
9 all star appearances (most likely to become 10 this year)
3 gold gloves
3 silver sluggers
1 - total number of players to be both the All Star and World Series MVP in one year (and that would be none other than Derek Jeter)

So take your second rate shortstop, who has *either* great defense *or* great offense, and hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.


Did you just claim that Jeter's rings and awards are often overlooked?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Jeter's good. He's better at SS than all the other not-shortstops, let alone people who don't play baseball.

He's just not better than the other shortstops. Why is that so hard to understand?
 
2009-05-28 04:51:42 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.


Oh wait, you're a BOSTON fan. I see now. Yeah, I remember how you guys used to tout how much better Nomaahhh was than Jeter.

I won't say a word about Pedroia because the sample size is too small.

You want to talk inaedequate? From Pedroia's wiki page:

He also recorded the first Major League hit in Citi Field history when he hit a bloop double down the right field line in an April 3rd exhibition game against the New York Mets.

That's a pre-season game. Which doesn't count. But go ahead, tell yourself that Dustin broke CitiField in.
 
2009-05-28 04:54:50 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: You do understand this is about defense, right? No one is arguing that he hasn't been an excellent offensive shortstop, but aside from a couple of highlight reel plays over a, what, 13-yr career, his defense in unquestionably bad.

Yes, I understand the hypothesis. I've been watching Yankees baseball for as long as I can remember, and rarely has the difference between the opposing SS and Jeter been glaring. There are two that I've watched that were above and beyond anyone I've ever seen - Vizquel and Rollins. The rest of the league SS seem to be comparable. Some have better years than others, but all-in-all longevity has to have some merit.

I'm not saying Jeter is great, but he's certainly not "below average". You don't keep that position for 14 years if you are below average.
 
2009-05-28 04:56:42 PM  
wmichaelis: Zulu_as_Kono: wmichaelis: hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Why, exactly, are my numbers irrelevant? Forget them all, if you want, except for the 3 Gold Gloves. How do you explain that one?


Gold Gloves are voted on by people who have NO clue about defense.

In recent history:

Rafael Palmeiro won one at 1B in '99, when he DHed almost the whole year. I think he played what, 28 games there that season?

David Wright's won the last two 3B GG's in the NL. As much as I love Wright, Ryan Zimmerman kicks his ass up and down the diamond on defense.

Jimmy Rollins won a GG two years ago, when Troy Tulowitzki led all major league shortsops in total chances (by 117!) and fielding percentage. Get to the most balls and make the most plays when you get there, you're the best.

Need more examples?
 
2009-05-28 04:57:29 PM  
Dafatone:Did you just claim that Jeter's rings and awards are often overlooked?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


Is it? Then tell me, in the original article, where are they mentioned?

If he's not better than other shortstops, what, were they all taking 2004-2006 off? Is that why he got those Gold Gloves?

As murp0837 said, if he's so damned terrible, how has he managed to play 14 years for arguably the toughest team to play for? And not even be moved from his position when Alex Rodriguez came to town?
 
2009-05-28 04:59:10 PM  
wmichaelis:
Is he the greatest shortstop ever? Probably not. But a shortstop is the total of his fielding ability, his hitting ability, and yes, his clubhouse and teamwork abilities. Here are some numbers that are often overlooked:


The player is the sum of all his abilities, that is true. However, this thread is solely about one of those abilities of Jeter: his ability to play defense. The other abilities are irrelevant to this discussion.

What is so hard about that concept?
 
2009-05-28 05:00:18 PM  
MattyFridays: I'm sorry, four rings is irrelevant?

Did he win them all by himself? If no, then yes - irrelevant.
 
2009-05-28 05:02:45 PM  
I saw an interesting stat recently. It listed career BABIP:

Ty Cobb- 372
Derek Jeter- 358
Tony Gwynn- 341
Ted Williams- 328
Pete Rose- 319

So he's got that going for him...
 
2009-05-28 05:03:28 PM  
Zulu showing up in a Jeter defense thread?

It's more likely than you think.

;)
 
2009-05-28 05:04:24 PM  
tforbes: the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

was one of the best plays of all time, so vieled stabs at someone who plays average defense are pointless.

he definitely has the hardware to prove he is great, and will eventually be in the HoF as well as having his # retired on the most prolific baseball franchise of all time.


Below average defense, but as you point out, offense is almost incalculably more important than defense. Which is why you can say that Jeter's range sucks, but you can never say that Jeter sucks.
 
2009-05-28 05:05:04 PM  
wmichaelis: Forget them all, if you want, except for the 3 Gold Gloves. How do you explain that one?

The Gold Glove is a popularity contest, not a serious measure of performance.

murp0837: How are any of those stats irrelevant? Seriously, dude. So, as a BoSox fan, you are telling me that you would have preferred to have the platoon at SS instead of Jeter for the last 14 years?

I'm not saying his offense hasn't outweighed his defensive deficiencies. I believe I've even said in this thread that he's a great hitter. But he's not a good defensive shortstop. Simple as that.

MattyFridays: Zulu_as_Kono: Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.


Oh wait, you're a BOSTON fan. ... But go ahead, tell yourself that Dustin broke CitiField in.


Oh, okay, you're one of those. Nevermind, then.
 
2009-05-28 05:05:15 PM  
bacongood:

What is so hard about that concept?


Because it's asinine. If you listened solely to FARK and not actually, I don't know, WATCHED THE FREAKING GAMES, you'd think that Jeter is the Mackey Sasser of Shortstops and shouldn't even be playing the game.


Is he a God among SS? No. Is he servicable? Yes. Quite simply, this is a trolling thread to get Yankee fans annoyed and everyone else a chance to bash a player using twisted statistics that suit a purpose.
 
2009-05-28 05:05:47 PM  
Dafatone: David Wright's won the last two 3B GG's in the NL. As much as I love Wright, Ryan Zimmerman kicks his ass up and down the diamond on defense.

Jimmy Rollins won a GG two years ago, when Troy Tulowitzki led all major league shortsops in total chances (by 117!) and fielding percentage. Get to the most balls and make the most plays when you get there, you're the best.


The problem, man, is that defensive stats are so subjective. How can you possibly judge whether a player should have fielded the ball, but didn't. I know enough about Sabermetrics, and even the most innovative of sabermetricians will admit that defensive analysis still has a lot of work to do.

It's easy to criticize year-end awards. Palmeiro GG in 1999 was an abomination, but throughout the history of the game there have been questionable awards. MVPs are hotly debated, GGs are controversial sometimes, but you know what? They're usually voted upon by people to follow baseball everyday, not just some wanker who is good with a calculator.
 
2009-05-28 05:08:47 PM  
wmichaelis: Dafatone:Did you just claim that Jeter's rings and awards are often overlooked?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Is it? Then tell me, in the original article, where are they mentioned?

If he's not better than other shortstops, what, were they all taking 2004-2006 off? Is that why he got those Gold Gloves?

As murp0837 said, if he's so damned terrible, how has he managed to play 14 years for arguably the toughest team to play for? And not even be moved from his position when Alex Rodriguez came to town?


Okay, so the article should start something like this?

"Hey everyone, we're here to talk about Jeter's defense. But we want you all to know, before we get into some heavy statistics, that he won 3 gold gloves. Even though the readers of this sort of analysis certainly already know that, we have to mention it because if Jeter's gold gloves aren't mentioned EVERY SINGLE TIME his defense is discussed, they're "overlooked."

Jeter's in the lineup for his bat, and because his glove isn't terrible. Just worse than most of the other full-time shortstops in baseball.

Oh, and Murp0837: If you're a yankees fan, you must've seen John McDonald on the Blue Jays. He's light years ahead of Rollins. Not Vizquel, though.
 
2009-05-28 05:11:32 PM  
Wise_Guy: It's more likely than you think.

We all need our hobbies.
 
2009-05-28 05:13:53 PM  
murp0837: Dafatone: David Wright's won the last two 3B GG's in the NL. As much as I love Wright, Ryan Zimmerman kicks his ass up and down the diamond on defense.

Jimmy Rollins won a GG two years ago, when Troy Tulowitzki led all major league shortsops in total chances (by 117!) and fielding percentage. Get to the most balls and make the most plays when you get there, you're the best.

The problem, man, is that defensive stats are so subjective. How can you possibly judge whether a player should have fielded the ball, but didn't. I know enough about Sabermetrics, and even the most innovative of sabermetricians will admit that defensive analysis still has a lot of work to do.

It's easy to criticize year-end awards. Palmeiro GG in 1999 was an abomination, but throughout the history of the game there have been questionable awards. MVPs are hotly debated, GGs are controversial sometimes, but you know what? They're usually voted upon by people to follow baseball everyday, not just some wanker who is good with a calculator.


I pretty much agree with you, except for that "wanker who is good with a calculator" bit. This stereotyping of sabermatricians is ridiculous. I promise you that the guys (guy?) who wrote this article have watched more baseball than you and me combined. And I've watched a LOT of baseball.
 
2009-05-28 05:15:21 PM  
MattyFridays: bacongood:

What is so hard about that concept?

Because it's asinine. If you listened solely to FARK and not actually, I don't know, WATCHED THE FREAKING GAMES, you'd think that Jeter is the Mackey Sasser of Shortstops and shouldn't even be playing the game.


Is he a God among SS? No. Is he servicable? Yes. Quite simply, this is a trolling thread to get Yankee fans annoyed and everyone else a chance to bash a player using twisted statistics that suit a purpose.


Where has someone said that Jeter should not play?

I don't think Jeter needs anyone to defend him, worst case scenerio he gets in the HOF on the first ballot. Pretty much everyone agrees to that. But that doesn't mean he has no faults.

But when someone like Jeter wins Gold Glove Awards, but every defensive metric indicates he is below average at defense, it is something that should be talked about. Trust me, people on FARK bashing Jeter watch just as much baseball as you do. If you can't see the difference between Jeter and the other SSs playing in the majors, you need to pay attention more. Watch where Jeter lines up defensively (shallower than normal). Watch how he moves to his left (not well at all). Watch how much he gets on his throws (not as much as most SSs).

If you can't see his faults, you either aren't looking or you are ignoring the obvious.
 
2009-05-28 05:17:51 PM  
Dafatone: Oh, and Murp0837: If you're a yankees fan, you must've seen John McDonald on the Blue Jays. He's light years ahead of Rollins. Not Vizquel, though.

It never said I didn't see impressive short stops, but for my money Rollins and Vizquel are the two best that I've seen personally. I went to two Philly games last year when the play the Brewers. I'd always known Rollins to be good, but when I saw him live he was electric.
 
2009-05-28 05:18:01 PM  
murp0837: You don't keep that position for 14 years if you are below average.

That he wasn't moved out of that position when A-Rod came on board is indefensible, if you'll pardon the pun. And the fact is that Jeter has been below average defensively at short pretty much his whole career, but he's been mostly wildly above average offensively, and that's why he's stayed there. It really isn't that hard to understand, is it?

wmichaelis: Is it? Then tell me, in the original article, where are they mentioned?

They aren't mentioned because they are not what the article is about.

wmichaelis: Is that why he got those Gold Gloves?

You've got to get over this Gold Glove business. Really, they're about perception, and are meaningless if you're interested in fact.
 
2009-05-28 05:18:16 PM  
Dafatone:
Oh, and Murp0837: If you're a yankees fan, you must've seen John McDonald on the Blue Jays. He's light years ahead of Rollins. Not Vizquel, though.


Adam Everett used to be the best in the game, but since his injury, he can't do it anymore. I'm not sure who I think the best full-timer is right now.

Big fan of Hu's glove too.
 
2009-05-28 05:20:27 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: murp0837: You don't keep that position for 14 years if you are below average.

That he wasn't moved out of that position when A-Rod came on board is indefensible, if you'll pardon the pun. And the fact is that Jeter has been below average defensively at short pretty much his whole career, but he's been mostly wildly above average offensively, and that's why he's stayed there. It really isn't that hard to understand, is it?


There is an argument for not moving him when A-Rod came. SSs generally have a shorter shelf life than corner infielders. Putting less miles on A-Rod at SS could pay off by him maintaining his bat longer in his career.

I don't think that is the logic the Yankees used, but it would have been legit.
 
2009-05-28 05:20:39 PM  
bacongood: Dafatone:
Oh, and Murp0837: If you're a yankees fan, you must've seen John McDonald on the Blue Jays. He's light years ahead of Rollins. Not Vizquel, though.

Adam Everett used to be the best in the game, but since his injury, he can't do it anymore. I'm not sure who I think the best full-timer is right now.

Big fan of Hu's glove too.


Isn't he on first?
 
2009-05-28 05:21:12 PM  
bacongood: I'm not sure who I think the best full-timer is right now.

Check out the youngster in Texas, Elvis Andrus. Maybe he's not the best RIGHT NOW, but after a year or two, he seems like a pretty safe bet.
 
2009-05-28 05:22:04 PM  
Dafatone: wmichaelis: Dafatone:Did you just claim that Jeter's rings and awards are often overlooked?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Is it? Then tell me, in the original article, where are they mentioned?

If he's not better than other shortstops, what, were they all taking 2004-2006 off? Is that why he got those Gold Gloves?

As murp0837 said, if he's so damned terrible, how has he managed to play 14 years for arguably the toughest team to play for? And not even be moved from his position when Alex Rodriguez came to town?

Okay, so the article should start something like this?

"Hey everyone, we're here to talk about Jeter's defense. But we want you all to know, before we get into some heavy statistics, that he won 3 gold gloves. Even though the readers of this sort of analysis certainly already know that, we have to mention it because if Jeter's gold gloves aren't mentioned EVERY SINGLE TIME his defense is discussed, they're "overlooked."

Jeter's in the lineup for his bat, and because his glove isn't terrible. Just worse than most of the other full-time shortstops in baseball.

Oh, and Murp0837: If you're a yankees fan, you must've seen John McDonald on the Blue Jays. He's light years ahead of Rollins. Not Vizquel, though.


According to the thread and the article, that's very wrong, he's beyond terrible. That's the position it seem like you've been taking. And that's what gets people annoyed. He's not, but everyone make it sound like he is.
 
2009-05-28 05:23:10 PM  
murp0837: How can you possibly judge whether a player should have fielded the ball, but didn't. I know enough about Sabermetrics

If you know enough about Sabermetrics to know the thinking on the deficiencies of defensive stats, you should know that most of the current stats, which are acknowledged to be imperfect, answer your question by analyzing every play in every game, and comparing it to every similar play in every game in the substantial record, and going from there.
 
2009-05-28 05:27:20 PM  
bacongood: I don't think that is the logic the Yankees used, but it would have been legit.

It was sentiment, pure and simple, from what I understand. You can't have a new guy take Capt. Intangible's position away, can you?

And I don't know if it would've been a legit reason to begin with - give up a huge competitive advantage for a potential marginal long term gain? Sorry, I don't buy it.
 
2009-05-28 05:29:48 PM  
cptjeff: Dafatone: wmichaelis: Dafatone:Did you just claim that Jeter's rings and awards are often overlooked?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Is it? Then tell me, in the original article, where are they mentioned?

If he's not better than other shortstops, what, were they all taking 2004-2006 off? Is that why he got those Gold Gloves?

As murp0837 said, if he's so damned terrible, how has he managed to play 14 years for arguably the toughest team to play for? And not even be moved from his position when Alex Rodriguez came to town?

Okay, so the article should start something like this?

"Hey everyone, we're here to talk about Jeter's defense. But we want you all to know, before we get into some heavy statistics, that he won 3 gold gloves. Even though the readers of this sort of analysis certainly already know that, we have to mention it because if Jeter's gold gloves aren't mentioned EVERY SINGLE TIME his defense is discussed, they're "overlooked."

Jeter's in the lineup for his bat, and because his glove isn't terrible. Just worse than most of the other full-time shortstops in baseball.

Oh, and Murp0837: If you're a yankees fan, you must've seen John McDonald on the Blue Jays. He's light years ahead of Rollins. Not Vizquel, though.

According to the thread and the article, that's very wrong, he's beyond terrible. That's the position it seem like you've been taking. And that's what gets people annoyed. He's not, but everyone make it sound like he is.


He's terrible compared to OTHER FULL TIME shortstops. He beats most utility infielders of the world, and you and me.

He's probably one of the worst of all time, defensively, WHO HAS HELD DOWN THE POSITION FOR 15 SEASONS.
 
2009-05-28 05:33:54 PM  
The Yankees currently have a streak of 14 games without an error.

/Just thought I'd throw that out there.
 
2009-05-28 05:40:31 PM  
Wise_Guy: The Yankees currently have a streak of 14 games without an error.

/Just thought I'd throw that out there.


Yes, but knowing the Yankees, there were a fair number of chances they never got to.

;) back at ya'
 
2009-05-28 05:48:09 PM  
Tulowitzki is an awesome SS on defense. Too bad after his injury, he cant get his bat straight.
 
2009-05-28 05:48:22 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: Wise_Guy: The Yankees currently have a streak of 14 games without an error.

/Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Yes, but knowing the Yankees, there were a fair number of chances they never got to.

;) back at ya'


It's good to know one's limitations.

BTW, it's really weird having a regular first baseman who can actually field. Haven't had that since Tino...
 
2009-05-28 05:51:08 PM  
DeWayne Mann: bacongood: I'm not sure who I think the best full-timer is right now.

Check out the youngster in Texas, Elvis Andrus. Maybe he's not the best RIGHT NOW, but after a year or two, he seems like a pretty safe bet.


Baseball seems to be stuck in a little zone where there are some guys who used to be good, but have lost a step, and guys like Andrus who need more time. We'll see.

Most improved may be Theriot this year.
 
2009-05-28 05:57:44 PM  
Brandon Inge
 
2009-05-28 06:00:39 PM  
dettigersnw22: Brandon Inge

What about him?

Because he's actually a pretty good defensive 3B, if you're suggesting otherwise.
 
2009-05-28 06:15:06 PM  
the biggest redneck here: /one of these makes up for an awful lot of regular-season missed grounders against Tampa from before they were good

Fine, extra points for actually being in position as the 2nd cutoff. In all seriousness, I regard failure to hit the cutoff man as one of the major reasons why scoring is up over the last 10-15 years. the fact that, when a 1-in-10,000 play happened, a below-average defensive player actually executed the play correctly has little to do with his defensive ability over all 10,000 plays. I'm sure he led the league in leadership that year too.

Jeter definitely ushered in the era of higher offensive expectations for SS. I remember when Jeter/ARod/Nomar was the ultimate barroom debate. They were all headed for Cooperstown, the record books, and a lifetime of cameo appearances on CSI. Who would have guessed that, 15 years after each debuted, Jeter would be a mummy; A-Rod would be a fraud; and Nomar would be the lesser athlete in his own marriage?
 
2009-05-28 06:29:03 PM  
To any of your gramps old enugh to see him play, was Brooks Robinson really that good?

This SZR metric has him 33% better than Ozzie Smith, who was definitally the best fielder as I was growing up. My mind is having trouble fathoming that Brooks could be a that much better, but I never got to watch the man play...
 
2009-05-28 06:40:53 PM  
pmmal: I remember when Jeter/ARod/Nomar was the ultimate barroom debate.

Started even before that, before Nomar's rookie season:

i11.photobucket.com

SI, 2/24/97.

BTW - I'm sure you recognize them, but that's Alex Gonzalez, Edgar Renteria, and Rey Ordonez in the second tier.
 
2009-05-28 06:49:13 PM  
Kygz: To any of your gramps old enugh to see him play, was Brooks Robinson really that good?

I only saw him play on TV a few times towards the end of his career, but from what I've come to understand, he really was exceptional.
 
2009-05-28 06:52:52 PM  
murp0837: You don't keep that position for 14 years if you are below average.

Um... yes, actually, you do.
How do I know this? Well, the Yankees have had a defensively GOOD shortstop on the team for years (and he's a better hitter, to boot). Yet, because of Jeter's history on the team, he's playing the position over the obviously more talented player.

It's pretty easy to see that Jeter is a SS because he's Derek Jeter, not because he's a good SS.
 
2009-05-28 06:55:12 PM  
cptjeff: According to the thread and the article, that's very wrong, he's beyond terrible

Actually, it's not necessarily his "glove" that's the problem, it's the rest of him.
 
2009-05-28 06:57:02 PM  
pmmal: Jeter definitely ushered in the era of higher offensive expectations for SS.

Cal Ripken Jr would like to have a word with you.

/actually, he ushered in the era of slower, bigger players (who can hit sometimes) playing the position
 
2009-05-28 06:58:16 PM  
Oh, and to add...

pmmal: Who would have guessed that... Nomar would be the lesser athlete in his own marriage?

... that's good. I'm going to steal it.
 
2009-05-28 06:59:56 PM  
Zulu_as_Kono: pmmal: I remember when Jeter/ARod/Nomar was the ultimate barroom debate.

Started even before that, before Nomar's rookie season:



SI, 2/24/97.

BTW - I'm sure you recognize them, but that's Alex Gonzalez, Edgar Renteria, and Rey Ordonez in the second tier.


Nothing pissed me off more than listening to people compare Renteria's glovework with Ordonez. Ordonez is the best defensive player I've ever seen. Yeah, I'm showing my age here (didn't really pay THAT much attention to Ozzie Smith when I was 7.)
 
2009-05-28 07:12:31 PM  
This is why the Gold Glove Award is completely worthless.
 
2009-05-28 07:16:08 PM  
Dafatone: Zulu_as_Kono: pmmal: I remember when Jeter/ARod/Nomar was the ultimate barroom debate.

Started even before that, before Nomar's rookie season:



SI, 2/24/97.

BTW - I'm sure you recognize them, but that's Alex Gonzalez, Edgar Renteria, and Rey Ordonez in the second tier.

Nothing pissed me off more than listening to people compare Renteria's glovework with Ordonez. Ordonez is the best defensive player I've ever seen. Yeah, I'm showing my age here (didn't really pay THAT much attention to Ozzie Smith when I was 7.)


Ozzie was incredible. I can't wait to see what Alcedas Escobar can do in the bigs (hopefully, still with the Brewers).
 
2009-05-28 07:36:44 PM  
Yuniesky Betancourt makes Jeter look like Ozzie Smith.
 
2009-05-28 07:50:14 PM  
Nabb1: good (not great) offensive stats

The guy is number #73 on the ALL TIME batting average list, he has 6 200 hit seasons (3 more with 190+), #76 on all time hits list with a chance to be in the top 50 by seasons end, He's tied for #234 on the career RBI list with 1024 RBIs (tied with Barry Bonds, a power hitter), by the end of the season he'll probably be at least 190.

Yeah, he sucks on defense, but you're just plain foolish to say he's only "good" on offense
 
2009-05-28 07:54:44 PM  
hbk72777: Nabb1: good (not great) offensive stats

The guy is number #73 on the ALL TIME batting average list, he has 6 200 hit seasons (3 more with 190+), #76 on all time hits list with a chance to be in the top 50 by seasons end, He's tied for #234 on the career RBI list with 1024 RBIs (tied with Barry Bonds, a power hitter), by the end of the season he'll probably be at least 190.

Yeah, he sucks on defense, but you're just plain foolish to say he's only "good" on offense


You must LOVE Pete Rose.
 
2009-05-28 07:59:30 PM  
Kygz: To any of your gramps old enugh to see him play, was Brooks Robinson really that good?

This SZR metric has him 33% better than Ozzie Smith, who was definitally the best fielder as I was growing up. My mind is having trouble fathoming that Brooks could be a that much better, but I never got to watch the man play...


Try to track down a highlight of the 1970 World Series. That man was a wizard and his glove pretty much demoralized the baby Big Red Machine that year. Incomparable defensively.
 
2009-05-28 08:24:07 PM  
Kygz: To any of your gramps old enugh to see him play, was Brooks Robinson really that good?

This SZR metric has him 33% better than Ozzie Smith, who was definitally the best fielder as I was growing up. My mind is having trouble fathoming that Brooks could be a that much better, but I never got to watch the man play...


They didn't name him "The Human Vacuum Cleaner" for nothing. He was the best defensive 3rd baseman ever. The only reason he's not the best all around 3rd baseman ever is because Mike Schmidt was born. Schmidt was almost as good defensively, but way better offensively.

Short bio here (new window)

/got robbed of a game winning rbi is the 1969 world series by Ron Swoboda - my great uncle.
 
2009-05-28 08:41:37 PM  
much as I hate the Yankees, I respectfully disagree.

www.beckett.com

Phillies fans made this guy a verb. As in, "Wow, he really Jeltzed that play."
 
2009-05-28 10:15:59 PM  
wmichaelis:

If he's not better than other shortstops, what, were they all taking 2004-2006 off? Is that why he got those Gold Gloves?

As murp0837 said, if he's so damned terrible, how has he managed to play 14 years for arguably the toughest team to play for? And not even be moved from his position when Alex Rodriguez came to town?


First, Gold Gloves are a poor metric for defining defensive excellence. Rafael Palmeiro was a gold glove first baseman in 1999 even though he played all of 28 games at that position.

Second, A-Rod moved to third because his offensive production was more in line with a top tier thrid baseman. Also, A-Rod the superior athlete, was a better choice to shift positions. If Jeter were to have been moved he would have gone to second becasue of his weaker arm and lack of range. However the PR would have been disastrous if the Yanks were to move the face of the franchise to make room for a mercenary.

Third, the Yankees run from 1996-2000 had everything to do with the fact they had the best pitching staff in baseball during that time. Their starters may not have been as good as Atlanta's, but they could hold their own, and their bullpen was vastly superior. They weren't an offensive juggernaut with Jeter leading the charge.
 
2009-05-28 10:18:14 PM  
wmichaelis: Wow, this is ground breaking, let me tell you. Is this the same mathematician who "proved" Jeter is a terrible shortstop 3 or 4 years ago, or someone else with an axe to grind?

Actually, if you read the article, it wasn't focused on Jeter at all. He just happened to show up in the course of running the numbers.

First, let's cover the things the numbers don't talk about. Does anyone ever feel the need to mention the various amazing plays he's made?

Yes, all the time. It's tiresome.

I know you've talked about the play against Oakland...but what about the diving catch into the stands against the Red Sox?

This is like saying, "Johnny MacDonald isn't a terrible offensive player - remember the one time he hit a grand slam?"

How many grabs in shallow center have we seen from him?

Probably not significantly more or less than any other mediocre or crappy SS.

Is he the greatest shortstop ever?

No.

Probably not. But a shortstop is the total of his fielding ability, his hitting ability, and yes, his clubhouse and teamwork abilities. Here are some numbers that are often overlooked:

4 world series rings


This is somewhat impressive, but it should be noted that there are 25 dudes on a team. Also, Jeter's OPS in World Series play is 50 points less than his career average, just fyi.

9 all star appearances (most likely to become 10 this year)

All-stars are selected in part by the fans. Jeter plays in the biggest market in the country. Also, measuring a player by all-star game appearances is asinine and pointless.

3 gold gloves

Do we really have to keep pointing out how dumb GG's are? Rafael Palmeiro, etc., etc.

3 silver sluggers

He's a pretty great offensive player, but this isn't the way to prove it.

1 - total number of players to be both the All Star and World Series MVP in one year (and that would be none other than Derek Jeter)


You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. So let me get this straight - he was the best player in a meaningless exhibition game, and then also the best player in a 7 game series 3 months later???? OMG!

So take your second rate shortstop, who has *either* great defense *or* great offense, and hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

If baseball statistics are "overly complex math" for you, we're certainly not the ones with "inadequacy" issues.
 
2009-05-28 10:21:00 PM  
wmichaelis: Zulu_as_Kono: wmichaelis: hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Why, exactly, are my numbers irrelevant? Forget them all, if you want, except for the 3 Gold Gloves. How do you explain that one?



rofl
 
2009-05-28 10:26:45 PM  
senorpogo: Every time I read about how Jeter is the worst defensive SS in baseball, I have to wonder if the person making the claim has watched the Indians at all for the past few seasons. I can't believe that Jeter has a worse range than Jhonny Peralta.

Watch a side-by-side of those two. You'll notice something.

-Almost exactly the same stance
-Both have terrible range at SS
-Both heralded for their offense, which isn't even that great
-Both holding back a better fielding SS (Arod for Jeter, Azdrubal for Jhonny)
-Both wearing #2

Also, for extra lulz, compare the stances of both #13s (Azdrubal vs. Arod).
 
2009-05-28 10:33:02 PM  
Just to clarify for people who aren't reading TFA:

It's not that Jeter is the 2nd worst infielder of all time on a percentage basis. He's not the 2nd least likely person to make a play. It's a counting measurement. Over the course of his career he's missed the 2nd most plays that an average SS would have made.

Of course, to wind up there, you have to be good enough with the stick to play for a lot of years. It is kind of similar to how the career leaders in interceptions in the NFL or goalie losses in the NHL are actually pretty good players. Being at the top of such a list demands longevity, which in turn demands some sort of usefulness. Jeter, as everyone readily concedes, has been a pretty damn useful offensive SS.
 
2009-05-28 11:22:47 PM  
Oh great, another "Jeter sucks on defense!" thread. Glad I wasn't around for it. What utter nonsense, everyone makes it sound like he'd stand around like the Statue of Liberty or something.
 
2009-05-28 11:26:18 PM  
wmichaelis:
4 world series rings
9 all star appearances (most likely to become 10 this year)
3 gold gloves
3 silver sluggers
1 - total number of players to be both the All Star and World Series MVP in one year (and that would be none other than Derek Jeter)

Let's adjust these #s if he was hypothetically drafted by say, the Royals instead of the Yankees:
0 world series rings
3 all star appearances (most likely to stay 3 this year)
0 gold gloves
0 silver sluggers
0 - total number of players to be both the All Star and World Series MVP in one year (is this a joke?)
 
2009-05-28 11:28:30 PM  
wmichaelis: Does anyone ever feel the need to mention the various amazing plays he's made?

The singular of "data" is not "anecdote."
 
2009-05-29 12:31:16 AM  
boxiebrown: Just to clarify for people who aren't reading TFA:

It's not that Jeter is the 2nd worst infielder of all time on a percentage basis. He's not the 2nd least likely person to make a play. It's a counting measurement. Over the course of his career he's missed the 2nd most plays that an average SS would have made.

Of course, to wind up there, you have to be good enough with the stick to play for a lot of years. It is kind of similar to how the career leaders in interceptions in the NFL or goalie losses in the NHL are actually pretty good players. Being at the top of such a list demands longevity, which in turn demands some sort of usefulness. Jeter, as everyone readily concedes, has been a pretty damn useful offensive SS.


Which forces the question of how bad does Fresco Thompson have to be to be on that list after only 6 years when everyone else is a decade plus, especially after you'll have people claiming that Eckstein should be #1 on the list(at least of active starters with longevity, of which Eck has about a decade)
 
2009-05-29 01:32:39 AM  
Broktun: raccoon2k: Brooks Robinson representin'

Brooks and Belanger.

Best left side of infield ever?


Probably.

Other damn good Orioles infielders; Mike Bordick, Cal Ripken, Luis Aparicio, Roberto Alomar, Miguel Tejada(I know, roids), Davey Johnson, Brian Roberts, Boog Powell, Palmiero(I know roids)

Pretty good for 60 years. Want to go back to the National League Orioles and the list gets longer.
 
2009-05-29 01:36:08 AM  
wmichaelis: Zulu_as_Kono: wmichaelis: hopefully your overly complex math can help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Or, you can rant online using irrelevant numbers to help you get over your feelings of inadequacy.

Why, exactly, are my numbers irrelevant? Forget them all, if you want, except for the 3 Gold Gloves. How do you explain that one?


Gold Glove is meaningless. The year Mike Bordick set the record for most games in a row without an error while also setting the record for most chances he didn't get it, they gave it to A-Rod.
 
2009-05-29 01:49:47 AM  
bhcompy: Which forces the question of how bad does Fresco Thompson have to be to be on that list after only 6 years when everyone else is a decade plus, especially after you'll have people claiming that Eckstein should be #1 on the list(at least of active starters with longevity, of which Eck has about a decade)

It's unclear if David Eckstein counts as a shortstop, as he has to play within five feet of the first baseman so that he has enough time to wrap both arms around the baseball and roll it to the bag.

It's also unclear if Eckstein gets an assist or a putout if the first baseman just scoops him up into his mitt to speed things along.
 
2009-05-29 01:56:44 AM  
lunchinlewis: Mark Belanger won like 10 gold gloves at short stop for Baltimore back in the 70's. He was also THE WORST offensive short stop in the history of the world over that time.

Holy crap. 6,602 PA across 18 seasons, and he slugged .280. You have to be one damn impressive defender to hit like a girl for 2,015 games and still have a manager say "We're starting Belanger today." one more time.

He may be the answer to "The player with an OBP bigger than his SLG who batted the most."
 
2009-05-29 08:24:54 AM  
At the end of the day, all anyone is going to remember is how many world series rings he has. I couldnt care less about "what the numbers say". Every time the Yanks need a hit he can usually get one and that all that matters. He's average defensively, but has a knack to get to the ball quickly and get rid of it. You cant really ask for much more from a guy whos like 35 and was never a defensive wizard to begin with.
 
2009-05-29 09:16:19 AM  
Jeter's hitting, value as a teammate, and number of World Series rings have absolutely nothing to do with his abilities, or lack thereof as a shortstop.

Remember back when the Red Sox and their fans liked Manny Ramirez, and had no problem casually admitting he sucked as a fielder? Guess what, Yankees fans, Jeter is great - but he sucks in the field. If you admit it like the rest of baseball, save idiots like Joe Morgan, maybe there would be less and less of a reason for so many articles explaining how terrible he is.
 
2009-05-29 09:24:14 AM  
So, wait, the 2006 Detroit Tigers entire pitching staff is excluded from defense?

I watched the Cards groundball the World Series away from my Motor City Kitties.

/sigh
 
2009-05-29 09:29:17 AM  
NakedDrummer: 1 - total number of players to be both the All Star and World Series MVP in one year (and that would be none other than Derek Jeter)

LOLwut?

2007 - Mike Lowell
2006 - David Eckstein (Yup)
2004 - Manny Ramirez

It's around this point I realized you meant All-Star MVP and not just a member of the All-Star Team, and then I LOL'd even more because you think that's relevant.
 
2009-05-29 09:45:34 AM  
BiscuitsForSmut: At the end of the day, all anyone is going to remember is how many world series rings he has. I couldnt care less about "what the numbers say".

So if someone asks you who the greatest shortstops in Yankee history are, you'd say Phil Rizzuto (7 rings) and Frankie Crosetti (6 rings) were better than Derek Jeter?
 
2009-05-29 09:49:05 AM  
BiscuitsForSmut: At the end of the day, all anyone is going to remember is how many world series rings he has.

Also better than Derek Jeter on the Biscuits scale: Luis Sojo. He has five rings, and is therefore 125% the baseball player Derek Jeter ever was.
 
2009-05-29 10:54:06 AM  
BiscuitsForSmut: At the end of the day, all anyone is going to remember is how many world series rings he has.

Really? I don't even remember him for that now. At the end of the day he's going to be remembered for winning on a team that was willing to buy the World Series(regardless of the fact the pre-2000 teams had a lot of good farm players on it rather than mercenaries)
 
2009-05-29 12:41:49 PM  
bhcompy: BiscuitsForSmut: At the end of the day, all anyone is going to remember is how many world series rings he has.

Really? I don't even remember him for that now. At the end of the day he's going to be remembered for winning on a team that was willing to buy the World Series(regardless of the fact the pre-2000 teams had a lot of good farm players on it rather than mercenaries)


Really? That would make you stupid.
 
2009-05-29 01:11:19 PM  
bhcompy: BiscuitsForSmut: At the end of the day, all anyone is going to remember is how many world series rings he has.

Really? I don't even remember him for that now. At the end of the day he's going to be remembered for winning on a team that was willing to buy the World Series(regardless of the fact the pre-2000 teams had a lot of good farm players on it rather than mercenaries)


"A team that was willing to buy the World Series (even though they didn't.)"

2/10.
 
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