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(Gallup)   Just like President Obama, a majority of Americans oppose gay marriage   (gallup.com) divider line 1841
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20735 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 May 2009 at 11:52 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-05-27 05:36:46 PM  
roadmarks: So I can hit you up for a donation to help the Gay Straight Alliance in your local district?

/much more common in my experience than a strict GLBT club


No, because that is still classifying people based on sexual orientation, with which I disagree. If you change it to a club for equality of all people, then I will join that club, but as it stands now, it is clearly a club "FOR" people of non-mainstream sexual orientations, however you want to dance around that fact.

mloree: so, you're saying that these people "with immutable characteristics" are accepted into the fabric of social life? The reason for these clubs is that these kids are ostracized or at least not accepted as equals by their peers, necessitating clubs though which they can find social acceptance and support.

Ok, you have identified a problem. I agree. Where we disagree is the solution. I don't believe that more classification, more divisiveness, and more segregation is the answer, and those are precisely what I have witnessed coming from many of these clubs. I don't believe in sheltering people in back rooms and private parties aimed at their demographic, I believe in setting a positive example out in the open.

Are you TRYING to be obtuse or are just a homophobe?


If you think I am a homophobe after all I have said here, then you are the only one who is being obtuse. I think it would also come as a great surprise to many of my self-identifying gay friends.

Murkanen: With "friends" like yourself who needs enemies?

I am not your enemy unless you insist upon making me your enemy through intolerance of differing opinion and methodology. I am a friend of all people EQUALLY.
 
2009-05-27 05:37:01 PM  
GT_bike: Because my 1st grader needs to know about 2 daddys or 2 mommies raising a child, which allegedly only occurs in the lowest of lowest percent of same gender couples?

Why do you fear giving knowledge of a harmless situation that they are more and more likely to encounter to your first grader? I mean I agree that some subjects are inappropriate for a first grader but in this day and age you are already explaining that some kids have a mommy and a daddy at two different houses and that is ok, it isn't a great leap to explain that sometimes kids have 2 mommies or daddies. It sounds like you don't have much experience with kids. My daughter just finished the first grade and we had the conversation without much trouble.
 
2009-05-27 05:37:24 PM  
superoogie: GT_bike:
because at it's core homosexuality needs social legitimacy to allow for more social experimenting in younger and younger children to foster and bring the inherant confusion in young children to the surface. Then use it as a way to tell them they are gay because they got a sexual reaction to some stimuli.

Because my 1st grader needs to know about 2 daddys or 2 mommies raising a child, which allegedly only occurs in the lowest of lowest percent of same gender couples?

Tolerance does not require learning about the preferred gender in the bed during bedroom gymniastics. I don't have to teach my 1st grader about slavery for her make friends with an African American kid at school or wherever.

What's it like being that wrong? Does it hurt? Tickle?


I'm thinking for him, it's familiar.
 
2009-05-27 05:37:24 PM  
sharpie_69: serial_crusher: EsteeFlwrPot: /for the record, i'm a cute girl. "ugly chicks" does not apply to me

Says the girl with no photo in her profile to back it up. On the internet, anyone can be a "cute girl".

/I'm 7 feet tall

Oh dear ... you didn't.

/Here we go!


she used to. She's cute enough if you're into scrawny average looking chicks.
 
2009-05-27 05:37:28 PM  
Hyperbolic Hyperbole: CrankMyBlueSax: I disagree. I think separation of the sexes is a result of religious misogyny and the demonization of sexuality.

"Women are gross and inferior, and so we should make them shower in separate areas lest they befoul men with their stink"

Umm, no. Locker rooms are divided to be as utilitarian as possible.


And furthermore, what the hell does demonization of sexuality have to do with this? Because locker room shower time is when you should be exploring sexuality?
 
2009-05-27 05:37:39 PM  
FloydA: but at least one TFette would probably beat us up

hehehe :D

a promise for a beer or several if you're ever in the PNW.

thanks, I may just take you up on that :D

CrankMyBlueSax: I think separation of the sexes is a result of religious misogyny and the demonization of sexuality.

The first part of that is actually an interesting bit of early Christian history. Paul himself said women could preach, just had to cover their heads, like men had to. He also named several women in one of his letters and mentioned they were important people. In and around Rome, it was women who lead the earliest Christian services, what would later be formalized into the mass. However there emerged a bunch of rather unpleasant individuals over the year who changed things. Some of Greek background, and if ever there was a culture that was misogynist it was old Greek culture, others from others. But for the times, in the Roman Empire they were not exactly in tune with it. Roman law provided that women could not only own property, but buy it and sell it of their own accord, they could also divorce and in Roman culture women were a vital part of civic life.

As for demonizing sexuality, same general group of people behind it.
 
2009-05-27 05:38:12 PM  
serial_crusher: Hyperbolic Hyperbole: CrankMyBlueSax: I disagree. I think separation of the sexes is a result of religious misogyny and the demonization of sexuality.

"Women are gross and inferior, and so we should make them shower in separate areas lest they befoul men with their stink"

Yeah, every women's bathroom I've ever been in (don't ask) was way cleaner than the corresponding men's room. If we were really trying to subjugate them, we might tell the cleaning staff to pay more attention to ours.


I worked accommodations (included cleaning the bathrooms) at a summer camp and my experience is exactly the opposite.
 
2009-05-27 05:38:35 PM  
wademh: Does it feel that way? Gee, I'm so sorry. I truly am and think I even understand. Now get over it. So how about, "we're here, we're queer, now let's all get on with our lives." But you have such a chip on your shoulder that you react to someone pointing out that poor tactics were used by asserting that they are out to make you a second class citizen. Get off the high horse.

First of all, I'm not gay (not that there's anything wrong with it). And that is all gay people are asking for, that they be allowed to get on with their lives just like straight people. If they are denied the same rights and privileges that straight people enjoy then yes, they are in essence being treated as second class citizens.

Given a choice, I will vote to support gay marriage.

Good for you, but don't expect a medal for your generosity.

But the rhetoric on this issue reeks of over-inflated whining. Enough straight people happily live together for decades without the need of some government sanctioning that I just don't buy this universal claim that gays must be allowed to marry in order to finally have fulfillment in their lives. And everyone gets turned off by over-inflated rhetoric.

So then maybe we should strip all currently married couples of their marital status because after all, I just don't buy the claim that straight people must be allowed to marry in order to finally have fulfillment in their lives? And they better not start whining about it.
 
2009-05-27 05:39:45 PM  
GT_bike: because at it's core homosexuality needs social legitimacy to allow for more social experimenting in younger and younger children to foster and bring the inherant confusion in young children to the surface. Then use it as a way to tell them they are gay because they got a sexual reaction to some stimuli.

I understand your concern, but you have to known this is an entirely unfounded statement. "At it's core"? Is Homosexuality a physical body now? Does it have an office and a president? You're speaking of a widely disparate movement as though it were an entity. Or maybe you're saying you've noticed trends in this direction?

Also, I've got to question the social experimentation thing. While I have certainly met many a gay man who was more than open to social experimentation, it wasn't children he was interested in. And the ones who DID want kids were pretty much like any other parent I've ever met.

Because my 1st grader needs to know about 2 daddys or 2 mommies raising a child, which allegedly only occurs in the lowest of lowest percent of same gender couples?

True. But what do you do if they ask? Which, in my experience, they're all but guaranteed to do.

Tolerance does not require learning about the preferred gender in the bed during bedroom gymniastics. I don't have to teach my 1st grader about slavery for her make friends with an African American kid at school or wherever.

True. But I'm going to have to argue that there is no such thing as a gay child. Everyone is equally asexual prior to puberty. The same cannot be said of race or socio economic status, so it's not quite the equal comparison it might seem to be.
 
2009-05-27 05:39:51 PM  
Is it really even "demonization of sexuality" that they're trying to keep the 5-10 minutes you're supposed to be cleaning up relegated to cleaning up?

Is it suddenly demonization of sexuality to assume you ought to be paying attention in class rather than staring at Susan's tits?
 
2009-05-27 05:40:21 PM  
serial_crusher: CrankMyBlueSax: Hyperbolic Hyperbole: I'm just saying that clearly locker rooms were divided by gender to avoid sexual clashings.

I disagree. I think separation of the sexes is a result of religious misogyny and the demonization of sexuality.

You just basically said the same thing, right? Except you seem to think sexuality has a place in the locker room, whereas Hyperbolic Hyperbole would rather you kept it in the bedroom?


Human sexuality is a reality regardless of what the name of the room is I am sharing with somebody. Expression of interest is fine. People cross the line when that interest is acted on in the absence of reciprocation from the person they are sexually attracted to.
 
2009-05-27 05:40:27 PM  
FloydA: but at least one TFette would probably beat us up

At least
one? Er... who is in the harem of yours?

WhyteRaven74: Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: I just don't understand why it is so goddamned difficult for people to treat each other as individuals

I don't get it either. I'm as lost as you are on the subject.


People are idiots.

The Southern Dandy: Raise your hand if you actually know a gay couple who got married, and please describe how their marriage has ruined you or your children's life.

I'm from Canada and same sex marriage has caused the Alberta cows to drop dead of a plague, Quebec to repeal its language laws, the BC pot harvest to fail and the polar bears to revolt.

Oh, wait, no, sorry. NOBODY was in any way affected, marriages continue with little fuss and in no way has 'the family' been ruined nor hetero marriage 'devalued'.

People are idiots.
 
2009-05-27 05:40:41 PM  
Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: roadmarks: So I can hit you up for a donation to help the Gay Straight Alliance in your local district?

/much more common in my experience than a strict GLBT club

No, because that is still classifying people based on sexual orientation, with which I disagree. If you change it to a club for equality of all people, then I will join that club, but as it stands now, it is clearly a club "FOR" people of non-mainstream sexual orientations, however you want to dance around that fact.

mloree: so, you're saying that these people "with immutable characteristics" are accepted into the fabric of social life? The reason for these clubs is that these kids are ostracized or at least not accepted as equals by their peers, necessitating clubs though which they can find social acceptance and support.

Ok, you have identified a problem. I agree. Where we disagree is the solution. I don't believe that more classification, more divisiveness, and more segregation is the answer, and those are precisely what I have witnessed coming from many of these clubs. I don't believe in sheltering people in back rooms and private parties aimed at their demographic, I believe in setting a positive example out in the open.

Are you TRYING to be obtuse or are just a homophobe?

If you think I am a homophobe after all I have said here, then you are the only one who is being obtuse. I think it would also come as a great surprise to many of my self-identifying gay friends.

Murkanen: With "friends" like yourself who needs enemies?

I am not your enemy unless you insist upon making me your enemy through intolerance of differing opinion and methodology. I am a friend of all people EQUALLY.


Good. Once you get all the straight people to stop harassing and killing the gay people we can all start up a human club and sit around and make s'mores and sing Kumbaya(sp?). The homosexuals creating these clubs didn't create the division. They are simply trying to survive it. Blaming them for the division is the epitome of blaming the victim.
 
2009-05-27 05:41:06 PM  
Murkanen: Actually thinking that GLBT clubs are about "the sexualization of children" does make you a bigot. Being against same-sex marriage does as well, just not to the same extent.

I never said that was what they were about, I simply pointed out that it's an unintended consequence because you cannot separate Sex from Homosexuality.
 
2009-05-27 05:41:14 PM  
badaboom: Al Sharpton? Really? Really?

Al Sharpton in a debate during the Democratic primaries a few years back said that to him civil unions are a case of separate but equal. And that, surprise surprise, he's got a problem with that. To him marriage is it, no civil union stuff.
 
2009-05-27 05:41:39 PM  
The Southern Dandy: Raise your hand if you actually know a gay couple who got married, and please describe how their marriage has ruined you or your children's life.

This one gay couple like 5 miles from my house got married, and 3 three years later, my house burned down.

Coincidence?
 
2009-05-27 05:41:56 PM  
Murkanen: You're the only Jew, religious or otherwise, that I've ever seen go out of his/her way to write Christian as Xian every single time.

I do not know any Orthodox Jew who does NOT go out of his way to write it that way

Murkanen: It was also a new development with you since you only started doing it after you started going to Israel to camp out in the West Bank.

Long before that, mein friend.
 
2009-05-27 05:42:27 PM  
CanisNoir: I never said that was what they were about, I simply pointed out that it's an unintended consequence because you cannot separate Sex from Homosexuality.

You can't separate Sex from Life either. So?
 
2009-05-27 05:42:45 PM  
discospinster: Uh no. I have chosen to have sex with nobody, but that does not give me a sexual orientation of NIL. Your sexual orientation is who you would have sex or a romantic relationship with, whether you actually have or not.

So a guy who finds himself attracted to other guys, but only has sex with women and marries a woman, would still be a homosexual?

Again, it's the Tree in the Woods type of deal.
 
2009-05-27 05:43:25 PM  
jekxrb: Quebec to repeal its language laws

Would this be a bad thing if indeed it happened? ;)
 
2009-05-27 05:43:53 PM  
Tatsuma: Murkanen: You're the only Jew, religious or otherwise, that I've ever seen go out of his/her way to write Christian as Xian every single time.

I do not know any Orthodox Jew who does NOT go out of his way to write it that way

Murkanen: It was also a new development with you since you only started doing it after you started going to Israel to camp out in the West Bank.

Long before that, mein friend.


That was subtle
 
2009-05-27 05:44:04 PM  
CrankMyBlueSax: Human sexuality is a reality regardless of what the name of the room is I am sharing with somebody. Expression of interest is fine.

Yes, sexuality is eternal, it's everywhere, its on whether or not we realize it, but you'd still be stepping on the rights of those who do not want to be openly treated that way.
 
2009-05-27 05:44:15 PM  
whistleridge: If the No-Prop 8 groups want to gain maximum ground among voters like me, they would do well to push tolerance and not demand that they be embraced as well. But they don't seem to be doing that. And I'm not sure why.

So how does one go about doing that? "Please let us have the same rights you do but by all means continue to go on thinking we are disgusting and that you wouldn't want us to be alone with your children, or ringing your doorbell to ask you to sign a petition".

You know, the whole civil rights thing could have been a lot easier if Black people would have just had the foresight to pull a Michael Jackson and lighten their skin to the point that you thought they were white. Why embrace your differences when you can just assimilate and hide them?
 
2009-05-27 05:45:02 PM  
mloree: What you are missing is that these clubs for gays, blacks, future IT professionals, etc. are for groups of students who are in a vulnerable position. Society is run and dominated by straight white people, straight white people who are openly hostile to one or more of these groups. The clubs serve as a way to counter that hostility and provide the social support that is denied them by the majority.

Absolutely false and detestable. See, this is what all of these clubs lead to, a hostility toward "the whites" and "the men" and "the straights" who supposedly run everything from smoke-filled backrooms. This is complete nonsense. Some people are bigots, but the vast majority of society are not, including the vast majority of white, straight men. Where discrimination (not disparity mind you) is open and proven, I will fight it every step of the way. When it is being made as an accusation against someone or a group as a whole, as you are doing, vaguely and based on sweeping unfair race-based generalizations, I cannot support that because it is using hostility and discrimination to fight the same.

In short, you're missing the part about differential power in society. If we were all born equal then you would have a point


Two wrongs do not make a right. Where discrimination clearly exists, we should expose it and stamp it out. Other than that, the best we can do is set a good example by not classifying, not segregating, and not making hypocrites of ourselves in our strive for equality.
 
2009-05-27 05:45:04 PM  
WhyteRaven74: jekxrb: Quebec to repeal its language laws

Would this be a bad thing if indeed it happened? ;)


*snert*

I know, I know...

But I was thinking of really SHOCKING, unlikely things.... ;)
 
2009-05-27 05:46:09 PM  
ChemYod: The Southern Dandy: Raise your hand if you actually know a gay couple who got married, and please describe how their marriage has ruined you or your children's life.

This one gay couple like 5 miles from my house got married, and 3 three years later, my house burned down.

Coincidence?


Obviously not! It was the wrath of God. He knows about you, and that goat, and that time last September...
 
2009-05-27 05:46:35 PM  
sharpie_69: You can't separate Sex from Life either. So?

I don't define whether or not I'm alive based upon who I screw, therefore you're wrong.
 
2009-05-27 05:47:14 PM  
Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: mloree: What you are missing is that these clubs for gays, blacks, future IT professionals, etc. are for groups of students who are in a vulnerable position. Society is run and dominated by straight white people, straight white people who are openly hostile to one or more of these groups. The clubs serve as a way to counter that hostility and provide the social support that is denied them by the majority.

Absolutely false and detestable. See, this is what all of these clubs lead to, a hostility toward "the whites" and "the men" and "the straights" who supposedly run everything from smoke-filled backrooms. This is complete nonsense. Some people are bigots, but the vast majority of society are not, including the vast majority of white, straight men. Where discrimination (not disparity mind you) is open and proven, I will fight it every step of the way. When it is being made as an accusation against someone or a group as a whole, as you are doing, vaguely and based on sweeping unfair race-based generalizations, I cannot support that because it is using hostility and discrimination to fight the same.

In short, you're missing the part about differential power in society. If we were all born equal then you would have a point

Two wrongs do not make a right. Where discrimination clearly exists, we should expose it and stamp it out. Other than that, the best we can do is set a good example by not classifying, not segregating, and not making hypocrites of ourselves in our strive for equality.


okay then. Who are the ones championing the defense of marriage act? who are the ones doing the gay bashing? who? They, not you?

take responsibility for your privilege.
 
2009-05-27 05:47:18 PM  
jekxrb: But I was thinking of really SHOCKING, unlikely things.... ;)

And it most definitely is unlikely and were it to happen, I'd be looking around for dogs and cats living together ;)
 
2009-05-27 05:47:21 PM  
I went to a LGBT meeting in college. You know what the fark they were talking about for 50 of the 60 minutes I was there? A bowling tournament. The other ten minutes was dedicated to upcoming news or events.

These clubs can have everything or nothing to do with what the title reads. The only reason they group together in specific demographics is because some things, if they need to be brought up, are just easier understood by someone going through the same thing.
 
2009-05-27 05:48:31 PM  
sharpie_69: You can't separate Sex from Life either. So?

Sex has been separated from my life since I left her.

/well, not completely but it feels like it
 
2009-05-27 05:48:52 PM  
mloree: Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: mloree: Ah, self-serving logic to alleviate guilt.

I do not feel guilty, because I have discriminated against NO ONE. I have gay friends, friends of various ethnic minorities, and friends who are women. I do not insist on classifying and stereotyping them along these lines, but I recognize that some of them and others do. That is their own choice to make, although it is a choice with which I disagree. I simply see people as individuals and treat them with dignity and on their merits. I consider this to be the solution.

/yes, stupid, compared to non-gay teens.

I am not stupid, and this was left unclear is his post. He could have been referring to any number of other demographics for comparison.

That statistic shows what happens when teenage homosexuals are first exposed the kind of bigotry and vitriol you see in this thread.

Ok, so we've established that there is a problem. I agree with this. The question now becomes what to do about it. I am unwilling to discriminate and segregate in order to alleviate discrimination and segregation. You might be, but I am not. If you can come up with a solution that includes people of all different demographics, then I will support that solution. But I will join no club that classifies or discriminates between people on that basis.

okay, the other solution is to force everyone into the same club... does that sound good?

What you are missing is that these clubs for gays, blacks, future IT professionals, etc. are for groups of students who are in a vulnerable position. Society is run and dominated by straight white people, straight white people who are openly hostile to one or more of these groups. The clubs serve as a way to counter that hostility and provide the social support that is denied them by the majority.

In short, you're missing the part about differential power in society. If we were all born equal then you would have a point


Since logic doesn't seem to be working, I just want to point out that you are SUPPORTING separate but equal with your "different clubs for black people and GLBTs." I find this hilarious, since this whole issue is about fighting separate but equal in the realm of marriage.

The solution is to fight for equal acceptance, not hide from your oppressors while reinforcing your group's isolation from mainstream culture.
 
2009-05-27 05:49:03 PM  
Hyperbolic Hyperbole: I went to a LGBT meeting in college. You know what the fark they were talking about for 50 of the 60 minutes I was there? A bowling tournament. The other ten minutes was dedicated to upcoming news or events.

These clubs can have everything or nothing to do with what the title reads. The only reason they group together in specific demographics is because some things, if they need to be brought up, are just easier understood by someone going through the same thing.


Which is an excellent example of the LGBT marriage microcosm. Let them do their own thing, and they'll do it just like anyone else, no difference at all.

But isolate them and make them feel put upon, and Jesus H. Christ, they'll never shut up.
 
2009-05-27 05:49:45 PM  
Hyperbolic Hyperbole: I went to a LGBT meeting in college. You know what the fark they were talking about for 50 of the 60 minutes I was there? A bowling tournament. The other ten minutes was dedicated to upcoming news or events.

These clubs can have everything or nothing to do with what the title reads. The only reason they group together in specific demographics is because some things, if they need to be brought up, are just easier understood by someone going through the same thing.


They knew they had a "breeder" there, so they behaved. The next meeting was where they discussed their agenda, which includes corrupting every child with their perversion in order to swell their ranks.
 
2009-05-27 05:50:09 PM  
Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: Absolutely false and detestable. See, this is what all of these clubs lead to, a hostility toward "the whites" and "the men" and "the straights" who supposedly run everything from smoke-filled backrooms. This is complete nonsense. Some people are bigots, but the vast majority of society are not, including the vast majority of white, straight men.

Well, seeing as this whole thread is about a poll that says the majority of people in this country do not support gay marriage, I think you might be wrong about this.
 
2009-05-27 05:50:33 PM  
mloree: Good. Once you get all the straight people to stop harassing and killing the gay people we can all start up a human club and sit around and make s'mores and sing Kumbaya(sp?). The homosexuals creating these clubs didn't create the division. They are simply trying to survive it. Blaming them for the division is the epitome of blaming the victim.

No, no, no. I hold everyone accountable for their own personal choices and actions. When somebody classifies a person as "gay" or "black" and discriminates against them by denying them a job or committing violence against them on that basis, I will oppose them for that choice that they made. On the other hand, when somebody starts a club for "gay students" or "black students" (or however they want to word it), I will oppose that as well. I am not blaming any victims, I simply oppose divisiveness, classification, and discrimination in all of its forms.

I also thoroughly reject what I see as your fear-mongering against the "white, straight masses." You play very fast and loose with your rhetoric in this regard, and I think it's irresponsible and unfair. Very few gay people are killed or attacked by very few straight people. When it happens it is wrong, but you still have to treat all of the actors involved as individuals and not as groups. As I have said before, two wrongs do not make a right and this kind of classification and segregation of demographics is not the answer.
 
2009-05-27 05:50:41 PM  
Emposter: mloree: Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: mloree: Ah, self-serving logic to alleviate guilt.

I do not feel guilty, because I have discriminated against NO ONE. I have gay friends, friends of various ethnic minorities, and friends who are women. I do not insist on classifying and stereotyping them along these lines, but I recognize that some of them and others do. That is their own choice to make, although it is a choice with which I disagree. I simply see people as individuals and treat them with dignity and on their merits. I consider this to be the solution.

/yes, stupid, compared to non-gay teens.

I am not stupid, and this was left unclear is his post. He could have been referring to any number of other demographics for comparison.

That statistic shows what happens when teenage homosexuals are first exposed the kind of bigotry and vitriol you see in this thread.

Ok, so we've established that there is a problem. I agree with this. The question now becomes what to do about it. I am unwilling to discriminate and segregate in order to alleviate discrimination and segregation. You might be, but I am not. If you can come up with a solution that includes people of all different demographics, then I will support that solution. But I will join no club that classifies or discriminates between people on that basis.

okay, the other solution is to force everyone into the same club... does that sound good?

What you are missing is that these clubs for gays, blacks, future IT professionals, etc. are for groups of students who are in a vulnerable position. Society is run and dominated by straight white people, straight white people who are openly hostile to one or more of these groups. The clubs serve as a way to counter that hostility and provide the social support that is denied them by the majority.

In short, you're missing the part about differential power in society. If we were all born equal then you would have a point

Since logic doesn't seem to be working, I just want to point out that you are SUPPORTING separate but equal with your "different clubs for black people and GLBTs." I find this hilarious, since this whole issue is about fighting separate but equal in the realm of marriage.

The solution is to fight for equal acceptance, not hide from your oppressors while reinforcing your group's isolation from mainstream culture.


You have no idea what these clubs DO, do you?

in short: SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH WHEN MEN ARE TALKING!
 
2009-05-27 05:50:51 PM  
mloree: The homosexuals creating these clubs didn't create the division. They are simply trying to survive perpetuating it.

FTFY
 
2009-05-27 05:51:39 PM  
Hyperbolic Hyperbole: I went to a LGBT meeting in college. You know what the fark they were talking about for 50 of the 60 minutes I was there? A bowling tournament. The other ten minutes was dedicated to upcoming news or events.

These clubs can have everything or nothing to do with what the title reads. The only reason they group together in specific demographics is because some things, if they need to be brought up, are just easier understood by someone going through the same thing.


Ours was a lot of events, bowling, stuff like that... until a local fraternity held a KKK rally at the fraternity house (building paid for with mandatory university decking funds). For what it's worth, on that issue at least, the GSA (SODA), and the African-American Student Union, as well as about 40 other groups all got on board. We were all happy to support their freedom of speech, but we all expressed profound unhappiness that the were using our mandatory fees to facilitate that speech. If the KKK wants to have a rally, they can pay for it their own damned selves.
 
2009-05-27 05:52:43 PM  
Gays are the slipperiest slope there is
 
2009-05-27 05:53:07 PM  
Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: mloree: Good. Once you get all the straight people to stop harassing and killing the gay people we can all start up a human club and sit around and make s'mores and sing Kumbaya(sp?). The homosexuals creating these clubs didn't create the division. They are simply trying to survive it. Blaming them for the division is the epitome of blaming the victim.

No, no, no. I hold everyone accountable for their own personal choices and actions. When somebody classifies a person as "gay" or "black" and discriminates against them by denying them a job or committing violence against them on that basis, I will oppose them for that choice that they made. On the other hand, when somebody starts a club for "gay students" or "black students" (or however they want to word it), I will oppose that as well. I am not blaming any victims, I simply oppose divisiveness, classification, and discrimination in all of its forms.

I also thoroughly reject what I see as your fear-mongering against the "white, straight masses." You play very fast and loose with your rhetoric in this regard, and I think it's irresponsible and unfair. Very few gay people are killed or attacked by very few straight people. When it happens it is wrong, but you still have to treat all of the actors involved as individuals and not as groups. As I have said before, two wrongs do not make a right and this kind of classification and segregation of demographics is not the answer.


did you read the article that this tread (supposedly) relates to?

The fact of the matter is that we live in social groups, not as individuals. That's reality.
 
2009-05-27 05:53:13 PM  
CanisNoir: sharpie_69: You can't separate Sex from Life either. So?

I don't define whether or not I'm alive based upon who I screw, therefore you're wrong.


Want to try again? Or should we leave it at your above?
 
2009-05-27 05:53:16 PM  
Hyperbolic Hyperbole: CrankMyBlueSax: Human sexuality is a reality regardless of what the name of the room is I am sharing with somebody. Expression of interest is fine.

Yes, sexuality is eternal, it's everywhere, its on whether or not we realize it, but you'd still be stepping on the rights of those who do not want to be openly treated that way.


Separation of locker rooms based on gender has not and will not stop people from considering each other sexually. Considering all the forms human sexuality takes on, there isn't a gym big enough to support all the locker rooms required to sort people by sexual preference.

Moving away from the locker room analogy. Does anybody have the right to not be considered sexually by another person? I don't think so. That person is going to need to be a hermit.
 
2009-05-27 05:53:41 PM  
Emposter:
mloree: The homosexuals creating these clubs didn't create the division. They are simply trying to survive perpetuating it.

FTFY


There's nothing else to say except that you're wrong, and you continue to be wrong, and nothing will change your mind, which is sad.
 
2009-05-27 05:54:17 PM  
mloree: You have no idea what these clubs DO, do you?

in short: SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH WHEN MEN ARE TALKING!


A well thought out and logical argument. Clearly I am no match for your superior intellect. Ill just go away now and let you bask in the glory of victory.

/snicker
//not likely
 
2009-05-27 05:54:29 PM  
Emposter: mloree: The homosexuals creating these clubs didn't create the division. They are simply trying to survive perpetuating it.

FTFY


Right, ostracize a segment of the population and them blame them and their clubs for perpetuating the division.... pretty self-serving logic you got there, hoss.
 
2009-05-27 05:54:30 PM  
Emposter: mloree: The homosexuals creating these clubs didn't create the division. They are simply trying to survive perpetuating it.

FTFY


Talk to me about the evils of avoiding mixing after *you've* taken a baseball bat to the head. It's not to say that one should form their own cultural ghetto... but there is a safety that comes with being in a group.
 
2009-05-27 05:55:47 PM  
roadmarks: You want to explain the discrepancy in the suicide rates of gay teens vs straight ones?

/twice as many gay teens


I'd have to see your source. From what I understand, white males are the most likely to commit suicide (data didn't specify sexual preference). I did see some data that said that there have been some studies showing that gay and lesbian suicide rates are higher, but the data is inconclusive since it lacks overall suicide rates. You can check out what I'm talking about here in this well sourced article. (new window)

I wasn't also saying that gays and lesbians don't feel those feelings and such, just that those kinds of feelings are very common among teens and not just gay ones.
 
2009-05-27 05:56:15 PM  
whistleridge:
Sexuality is not a choice. Acting on it is. We could all choose to live celibate lives dedicated to study, prayer, meditation, or the perfection of the tulip bulb, but we don't. But it's not an inevitability, it's a choice.

As long as it is a choice I don't HAVE to make.


Marrying your partner of 16 years is fine. Do it. Have fun at it. I wish you well (seriously). But then shut the hell up about it.

I wouldn't HAVE to talk about it if I didn't have to fight for the right to do it.


Which is the *exact* same way that I feel about the 23 year old twit down the hall here at work who WILL NOT SHUT UP about the damn ring her bf just gave her. If you have the equal right to marry (and I think you should), I also have the equal right to not have to hear about it nonstop.

Which sounds worse than I mean it. I'm sure my experiences are clouded by negative interactions with a few bad seeds, but the gay men I know don't seem to be interested in equal rights so much as the right to flaunt their lifestyle as much as they want. And I shouldn't be made to feel bad for thinking they're acting like whores and calling them on it, just like I would any two teenagers sucking face in an inappropriate location.


Good luck with that. I don't particularly care to see two people sucking face in public no matter what the gender(s) of the couple. When you can get them to shut up you will have a lot more viable argument for getting me to shut up.


As for gay rights...this is what I believe. There is no question that LGBTs should have equal rights in every way under the US Constitution, including rights of marriage, inheritance, parentage, etc. However, I also believe that if you happen to be Judeo-Christian, you probably can't get married in a synagogue or a church. I'm not the theologian that Tatsuma is, but it would seem to me that both sets of Scriptures are pretty damn clear on the topic. Which sucks, and I sympathize. But I still don't think there's any way around it, any more than a guy who gets of on killing people slowly has a way around indulging what is, to him, a very natural desire (not to compare LGBT to criminal behavior)

Interesting that you only refer to TWO scriptures, since there are hundreds. (And plenty of religions that DON'T have issues with gays) And you are also wrong that Christian churches and Jewish synagogues do not perform marriage ceremonies for gays - there are plenty that do - just not of the fundamentalist or Orthodox variety.
 
2009-05-27 05:56:48 PM  
Generation_D: If the state participates in marriage, then marriage cannot exclude. Cannot create separate classes of people.

I see the point you are trying to make but it's not correct. Minors cannot legally buy alcohol. Non-doctors cannot legally practice medicine. Felons cannot legally buy guns. Non-citizens cannot legally vote. People with too many points on their license cannot legally drive. The state excludes all the time. The state creates separate classes all the time.

So you need to refine your point. You need criteria to define the classes and the exclusions and determine which we endorse and which we don't.
 
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