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(Hot Air)   Professor points out the obvious problem facing US health care, which no politician would ever mention: We spend too much keeping really, really old people alive   (hotair.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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2197 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 May 2009 at 4:59 AM (6 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-05-13 06:40:49 AM  
Two things we can do ethically to fix the problem.
1) Legalize assisted suicide (don't push it in any manor, just make it legal)
2) Legalize heavy voluntary narcotics for the dying
3) Medicare should pay for doctor consultations rather than just procedures. (A doctor on NPR the other day was explaining how if he consulted a patient for 30 minutes on end of life care and how they could best stay healthy he was paid like 10 bucks by medicare, if he does an an expensive procedure that will only lengthen their life a tiny bit he is fully reimbursed).
 
2009-05-13 06:43:04 AM  
Slippery slope arguments are slippery. Also slopey.
 
2009-05-13 06:43:12 AM  

Socialized medicine proponents always go with the pragmatic approach... right?

img172.imageshack.us

 
2009-05-13 06:45:26 AM  

IamKaiserSoze!!!: The flaw in useing lifespan as a measure of the quality of the healthcare system is that it does not take into account the lifestyle choices of the citizens. Americans, are fatter, like to smoke, drink, drive fast and shoot/knife each other. Add to that that our most socioeconomic classes have the most babies with little or no prenatal care and no system in the world is going to get our lifespan up to high 70s or 80s.


Well, it's good to know that all those other countries are utopias with no violence, no poor people, no smokers and no alcoholics, because quite frankly I hadn't noticed.

Health care cost are lower in other countries because they provide less, not because they do it more efficiently. My mother (at 87) just got a pacemaker courtesy of Medicare within a week of showing symptoms.

And you're arguing against socialised medicine? Is there an appropriate fail pic for this?
 
2009-05-13 06:47:28 AM  

Phil Herup: Socialized medicine proponents opponents always go with the pragmatic whargarrbal approach... right?


ftfy
 
2009-05-13 06:51:50 AM  

Bad_Seed: And you're arguing against socialised medicine? Is there an appropriate fail pic for this?


some people are so dense they don't realize Medicare is socialized medicine.
 
2009-05-13 06:53:17 AM  

IamKaiserSoze!!!: My mother (at 87) just got a pacemaker courtesy of Medicare within a week of showing symptoms. That would not happen as quickly, or most likely not at all, in England or Canada. Maybe it shouldn't have, but that is what our current system enables.


Why should it not have happened for dear old mom?


I have no idea what mom's medical hx is, but pacemakers are far from heroic measures and it may extend her life quite a bit.

Why do you hate mom?
 
2009-05-13 06:53:27 AM  
If you limit care or coverage for those past a certain age, you should not limit pain management ond at least some mobility assistance
 
2009-05-13 06:53:45 AM  

Hobodeluxe: imo Kevorkian is a saint.


I'm sure it's because I'm very tired but I read that as emo Kevorkian is a saint. Then I laughed a little.
 
2009-05-13 07:02:59 AM  

Phil Herup: Socialized medicine proponents always go with the pragmatic approach... right?


OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!! OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!

RUSH SAYS BAD!! FOX SAYS BAD!! OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!

i159.photobucket.comi159.photobucket.comi159.photobucket.com
 
2009-05-13 07:05:23 AM  
Senilicide, you say?
 
2009-05-13 07:08:03 AM  
Nanny State Healthcare.. don't get old, or get Cancer. Thats it in a nutshell.
 
2009-05-13 07:09:52 AM  

winterwhile: Nanny State Healthcare.. don't get old, or get Cancer. Thats it in a nutshell.


I'm wishing you would climb back in your nutshell.
 
2009-05-13 07:10:32 AM  

IamKaiserSoze!!!: We absolutely have the best health care available in the world as evidenced by the fact that this is where the affluent in the world come when they get really sick


That's like claiming we're not in a recession because Paris Hilton made $25 million last year. The standard is how are our poorest doing, not our richest.
 
2009-05-13 07:10:56 AM  

IamKaiserSoze!!!: Health care cost are lower in other countries because they provide less, not because they do it more efficiently. My mother (at 87) just got a pacemaker courtesy of Medicare within a week of showing symptoms. That would not happen as quickly, or most likely not at all, in England or Canada.


Utter nonsense.

Waiting room wait times are bad in Canada, because everyone who has the sniffles decides to bother doctors with it, but i can tell you from experience that if you have a serious problem that bypasses the outpatient area you're treated like royalty.

I can't believe they manage to convince you guys, after your health care system is routinely shown to be the worst, that it's the best.
 
2009-05-13 07:11:39 AM  

whidbey: spill_thrill: No, the real problem is a massive, parasitic healthcare "industry".

You sir, win three Internets for nailing that one.


So is it fair to say that the free market caused this issue?
 
2009-05-13 07:12:33 AM  
"In a non-shortage, free-market pixie dust approach"

FTF HotAir.

/Free market magic for everyone! Just look at the utopia we've built since 1980. And now the communists what to take it away. Tinkerbell is rolling in her grave.
 
2009-05-13 07:13:28 AM  
Ya think?
www.baystate.com


These geriatric consumerist cash cows are grade A gold for big pharma. Plus they represent a rather large voting block.

www.thisischurch.com

Big business probably sees the young as way more expendable. While it's fun to milk the kid working at the fast food joint paying for community college for all his wages his income does not hold a candle to these geezers.
 
2009-05-13 07:13:37 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: I can't believe they manage to convince you guys, after your health care system is routinely shown to be the worst, that it's the best.


The US has a marketing system second to none!
 
2009-05-13 07:13:53 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: Utter nonsense.

Waiting room wait times are bad in Canada, because everyone who has the sniffles decides to bother doctors with it, but i can tell you from experience that if you have a serious problem that bypasses the outpatient area you're treated like royalty.

I can't believe they manage to convince you guys, after your health care system is routinely shown to be the worst, that it's the best.


In Texas at least our ER's are crowded with people who have no insurance and have no Primary HCP.
 
2009-05-13 07:14:19 AM  

Remove all Republicans: The standard is how are our poorest doing, not our richest.



Then we are still number one.

Case closed.

We have the fattest, HBO watching, cash-back-food-stamping poor people on earth.
 
2009-05-13 07:18:25 AM  

Phil Herup: We have the fattest, HBO watching, cash-back-food-stamping poor people on earth.


Who will die in the waiting room filling out form or will go bankrupt because they caught a cold. There's a reason we can't get enough doctors, they can't deal with the health insurance market.
 
2009-05-13 07:26:18 AM  

Remove all Republicans: Who will die in the waiting room filling out form or will go bankrupt because they caught a cold.



No they won't.

Hyperbolic Troll is hyperbolic.


/can you give it a rest?
 
2009-05-13 07:28:17 AM  

Edsel: As his family, you have the power to end his suffering by just turning off the food pump, if you think he wouldn't have wanted to live that way. Not trolling, it's the truth. Not the nursing home or the doctors who are at fault for keeping him alive, it's you.


Would that it were that easy...

To put it in blunt terms, you are suggesting that our entire family agree that we should starve my father to death, slowly, over a period of weeks. You are presupposing that everyone in the family would be in agreement and would allow such a thing. There is no clear legal mechanism for resolving these issues and there needs to be.

I do appreciate your input, even though I would suggest you haven't been down this road and I sincerely hope from the bottom of my heart you never have to.
 
2009-05-13 07:38:49 AM  
Basically we as a country need to realize two simple facts.

1. Death, particularly at an old age, is not something to be afraid of, and is in some ways not a bad thing. Especially not on my dime.

2. Preventative care does a lot. Make that available for free/cheap, with reasonable limitations - like an exam 1-2 times a year, not 300.

/Currently young.
//Finds it ironic that those who believe in heaven are among those who cling hardest to life, while at the same time raving against policies to help those once they are born.
 
2009-05-13 07:43:12 AM  
They can buy private insurance if they want expensive treatments to prolong their suffering.
 
2009-05-13 07:43:26 AM  

Phil Herup: Hyperbolic Troll is hyperbolic.


/can you give it a rest?


Why should he? You never give it a rest. Pot meet Kettle, Kettle this is pot.
 
2009-05-13 07:44:43 AM  

Phil Herup: IamKaiserSoze!!!: My mother (at 87) just got a pacemaker courtesy of Medicare within a week of showing symptoms. That would not happen as quickly, or most likely not at all, in England or Canada. Maybe it shouldn't have, but that is what our current system enables.

Why should it not have happened for dear old mom?


I have no idea what mom's medical hx is, but pacemakers are far from heroic measures and it may extend her life quite a bit.

Why do you hate mom?


No, dear old mum should have gotten one, but those argueing for socialized medicine are also argueing for rationing and restrictions.
 
2009-05-13 07:46:16 AM  

Thanatos_10: 2. Preventative care does a lot. Make that available for free/cheap, with reasonable limitations - like an exam 1-2 times a year, not 300.


In principle, I agree. However my concern is that once you get government in the business of "preventative care", you give them the authority to start managing personal lifestyle decisions in the name of keeping costs to taxpayers down.
 
2009-05-13 07:46:56 AM  

IamKaiserSoze!!!: No, dear old mum should have gotten one, but those argueing for socialized medicine are also argueing for rationing and restrictions.


How do you figure that? Also, you spelled arguing wrong.
 
2009-05-13 07:49:07 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: IamKaiserSoze!!!: Health care cost are lower in other countries because they provide less, not because they do it more efficiently. My mother (at 87) just got a pacemaker courtesy of Medicare within a week of showing symptoms. That would not happen as quickly, or most likely not at all, in England or Canada.

Utter nonsense.

Waiting room wait times are bad in Canada, because everyone who has the sniffles decides to bother doctors with it, but i can tell you from experience that if you have a serious problem that bypasses the outpatient area you're treated like royalty.

I can't believe they manage to convince you guys, after your health care system is routinely shown to be the worst, that it's the best.


Hmmmm.....I've worked in hospitals in Detroit and Rochester, NY and both made a lot of money off of Canadians who couldn't get the care they needed (or wanted) in Canada. It is from these folks that I have formed my opinions not from 'They'. Healthcare systems in both communities (as well as many other US border cities) do very well careing for the many folks who might differ with your opinion.
 
2009-05-13 07:53:12 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Phil Herup: Socialized medicine proponents always go with the pragmatic approach... right?

OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!! OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!

RUSH SAYS BAD!! FOX SAYS BAD!! OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!


Do you know what would happen to demand if healthcare becomes socialized?

The professor is an idiot. A country is great if it can take care of its old citizens and not leave them to die.
 
2009-05-13 07:54:51 AM  

crimsin23: Lionel Mandrake: Phil Herup: Socialized medicine proponents always go with the pragmatic approach... right?

OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!! OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!

RUSH SAYS BAD!! FOX SAYS BAD!! OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!

Do you know what would happen to demand if healthcare becomes socialized?

The professor is an idiot. A country is great if it can take care of its old citizens and not leave them to die.


He never said they shouldn't be cared for.
 
2009-05-13 07:56:30 AM  

Maddogjew: How do you figure that?


Rationing and restrictions is absolutely unavoidable for a full socialized health care system to be financially viable.
 
2009-05-13 07:58:02 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: They can buy private insurance if they want expensive treatments to prolong their suffering.


Who said that they are suffering? Just because they are old? Or because they have multiple medical problems? There is a lot for people to live for, even if they are old or sick. Their lives are in no way less important than yours or mine. A country has to take care of its citizens.
 
2009-05-13 07:59:36 AM  

crimsin23: HotWingConspiracy: They can buy private insurance if they want expensive treatments to prolong their suffering.

Who said that they are suffering? Just because they are old? Or because they have multiple medical problems? There is a lot for people to live for, even if they are old or sick. Their lives are in no way less important than yours or mine. A country has to take care of its citizens.


Ok, then they can buy private insurance to prolong their life of bliss.
 
2009-05-13 08:00:25 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: crimsin23: Lionel Mandrake: Phil Herup: Socialized medicine proponents always go with the pragmatic approach... right?

OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!! OMG!! SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!!

RUSH SAYS BAD!! FOX SAYS BAD!! OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!

Do you know what would happen to demand if healthcare becomes socialized?

The professor is an idiot. A country is great if it can take care of its old citizens and not leave them to die.

He never said they shouldn't be cared for.


He didn't, the second paragraph is just my opinion.
 
2009-05-13 08:00:29 AM  
The problem is that it's a long, dark, evil road that you are getting on by even suggesting this with the absolute best of intentions.

How long will it be before letting the 'old people' die off isn't quite enough?
 
2009-05-13 08:05:47 AM  

Phil Herup: Socialized medicine proponents always go with the pragmatic approach... right?


Well Phil, you've been occasionally entertaining and even more occasionally sane but you're pretty much phoning it in these days. Sorry buddy, time to put you in the cornfield with the the rest of them.

I hope you understand, I have limited time and even the few moments spent wasted evaluating your whargarbl could be better spent on another post.

Don't worry, it won't hurt when I push the plunger. It will be like going to sleep.
 
2009-05-13 08:05:51 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: crimsin23: HotWingConspiracy: They can buy private insurance if they want expensive treatments to prolong their suffering.

Who said that they are suffering? Just because they are old? Or because they have multiple medical problems? There is a lot for people to live for, even if they are old or sick. Their lives are in no way less important than yours or mine. A country has to take care of its citizens.

Ok, then they can buy private insurance to prolong their life of bliss.


Do you want to cancel social security too? A country has to take care of its citizens, especially the ones that need the most health. This part is non-negotiable. You can find other ways to cut cost, but this way is not it.
 
2009-05-13 08:06:30 AM  

Phil Herup: We have the fattest, HBO watching, cash-back-food-stamping poor people on earth.


Has anyone ever mentioned to you that you have a very poorly defined concept of the word success?
 
2009-05-13 08:12:22 AM  

winterwhile: Nanny State Healthcare.. don't get old, or get Cancer. Thats it in a nutshell.


Spend a little time watching a loved one slowly decay while even the most basic dignity is stripped from them until they have only just enough strength and understanding left to weep in humiliation and then get back to me on how our current way of handling the end of life is a good thing.
 
2009-05-13 08:12:44 AM  

Mentat: The correct answer is...: I've made my wishes to my family crystal clear: The moment I am formally diagnosed with any malady that irreversably degrades my mental acuity, or my physical quality of life to the point where I become a burden to my loved ones, they are to hire someone to "take me for a drive".

I've instructed my family to take me to a farm in the country that has lots of room where I'll be able to chase birds all day long.


Winnar.
 
2009-05-13 08:14:01 AM  

crimsin23: HotWingConspiracy: crimsin23: HotWingConspiracy: They can buy private insurance if they want expensive treatments to prolong their suffering.

Who said that they are suffering? Just because they are old? Or because they have multiple medical problems? There is a lot for people to live for, even if they are old or sick. Their lives are in no way less important than yours or mine. A country has to take care of its citizens.

Ok, then they can buy private insurance to prolong their life of bliss.

Do you want to cancel social security too? A country has to take care of its citizens, especially the ones that need the most health. This part is non-negotiable. You can find other ways to cut cost, but this way is not it.


I want a healthy mix of a social health care safety net for the basics, and reputable, honest insurance companies for any high-end or elective medicine and procedures one might want.

I agree we have to care for one another, but caring (to me, any way) doesn't mean using vast amounts of resources to keep someone alive for a few more days.
 
2009-05-13 08:20:16 AM  
Why is euthanasia called "merciful" for suffering pets, but "murder" for suffering relatives?
 
2009-05-13 08:23:38 AM  

GoldSpider: Why is euthanasia called "merciful" for suffering pets, but "murder" for suffering relatives?


Because Christians fear the afterlife.
 
2009-05-13 08:25:02 AM  

crimsin23: HotWingConspiracy: They can buy private insurance if they want expensive treatments to prolong their suffering.

Who said that they are suffering? Just because they are old? Or because they have multiple medical problems? There is a lot for people to live for, even if they are old or sick. Their lives are in no way less important than yours or mine. A country has to take care of its citizens.


OK, so you agree we need universal health care. Fine. But let me give you an example:

For the last 4 years I did respite care with a nice old guy who was stuck in a wheelchair from a stroke. Over the last 2 years he deteriorated badly; was in and out of the hospital and nursing home. He plainly told me 2 years ago, "I wish I were dead." Yet they kept saving him and torturing him, his poor wife was trpped caring for him, and no one was happy.

Letting someone go when their time is pretty plainly up, IS caring.
 
2009-05-13 08:26:54 AM  
It's a social luxury, like celebrity fixation or the ACLU defending Nazis.
 
2009-05-13 08:30:56 AM  
Professor points out the obvious problem facing US health care, which no politician would ever mention: We spend too much keeping stupid people alive

FTFY, Prof
 
2009-05-13 08:41:44 AM  
Well, the world needs Wal-Mart greeters too, Danny.
 
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