Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: but there wont be any because nobody wants to go to college and graduate with 0 job securit

If I can pay my house off in the next couple of years, I might consider teaching for the pension alone.

Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears:
dont blame the unions for the car industry. blame the management that keeps oking the craptastic gashogging clunkers that have been pumped out for some time now.

who would want to buy these things?

Management pumps out gashogs because the public loves to drive them. They are only willing to drive those little tin cans on skateboards powered by fairy farts when the price of gas gets too high. Soccer Moms love them because you can put all the kids and the requisite 200 pounds per child of safety equipment. Old ladies love them because they feel safe turning left on a one-way street from the right lane. Guys love them because you can load your buddies and all their golf clubs in them and have a good weekend.

Toyota's latest plant in Texas? Going to build a big beefy truck to compete with the Big Three's lineup of 3/4 and 1 Ton trucks.

I know the media and your leftist overlords have told you that management is stupid because they build those cars. But that's what people want to drive. That's why they built them.

Mr. Right: Apik0r0s:
Capitalism is the collectivization of Capital.

Communism is the collectivization of Labor.


Capitalism is not collective. Capitalism is individual. When capital becomes collectivized it is corporatism. Don't confuse the two. Individual capitalists who succeed do so because of what Smith referred to as Enlightened Self Interest. Corporatism fails because it tends to short term greed. Capitalism needs no controls - the market and competition serving an enlightened consumerate provide all the constraint needed. Corporatism requires regulation precisely because of the absolute economic power it could wield.

Unions are monopolies as well as being collective. Can't get much more dangerous and corruption-prone than those conditions.


I'm using the godsdamned term as we all know it now - of course it's corporatism dipshiat, but this isn't 1840 so I'll use the farking words we all use today. Take the pedantic stick out of your arse and try to see the farking point.

Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears:

better than what?

your solution is to make every teacher into a burger king worker so your child's education becomes a long string of substitute teachers.

people who work in burger king with no security do it because:

a) they suck
b) they're kids
c) they've got down syndrome

No, my solution is to make it easier to fire teachers for poor performance. This will result in the poor performing teachers stepping up or not teaching kids. Both of which are preferable to staying in the system and milking it.

Your solution is to ignore the fact that there are incompetent people teaching the kids.

Mr. Right: Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears:
dont blame the unions for the car industry. blame the management that keeps oking the craptastic gashogging clunkers that have been pumped out for some time now.

who would want to buy these things?

Management pumps out gashogs because the public loves to drive them. They are only willing to drive those little tin cans on skateboards powered by fairy farts when the price of gas gets too high. Soccer Moms love them because you can put all the kids and the requisite 200 pounds per child of safety equipment. Old ladies love them because they feel safe turning left on a one-way street from the right lane. Guys love them because you can load your buddies and all their golf clubs in them and have a good weekend.

Toyota's latest plant in Texas? Going to build a big beefy truck to compete with the Big Three's lineup of 3/4 and 1 Ton trucks.

I know the media and your leftist overlords have told you that management is stupid because they build those cars. But that's what people want to drive. That's why they built them.

so....why cant chrysler sell its cars?

DaSwankOne: Mr. Right:the market and competition serving an enlightened consumerate provide all the constraint needed. Corporatism requires regulation precisely because of the absolute economic power it could wield.

And that is why pure capitalism fails. The average person is incapable on distinguishing between price and cost.

FTFM

I won't disagree with you. I think it's another shortcoming of our education system and parenting in this country. But why is it OK for companies who can't cut it to fail but not for consumers?

Sometimes I think that its morally wrong to allow a fool to keep his money.

jst3p: Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears:

better than what?

your solution is to make every teacher into a burger king worker so your child's education becomes a long string of substitute teachers.

people who work in burger king with no security do it because:

a) they suck
b) they're kids
c) they've got down syndrome

No, my solution is to make it easier to fire teachers for poor performance. This will result in the poor performing teachers stepping up or not teaching kids. Both of which are preferable to staying in the system and milking it.

Your solution is to ignore the fact that there are incompetent people teaching the kids.

my solution is to motivate non incompetent people to become teachers.


you: negative reinforcement

me: positive reinforcement

punitive employment works great on prisoners making license plates but not so well on educators.

I wonder what other shiat Obama will pull while our attention is diverted by these swine (flu).

Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: my solution is to motivate non incompetent people to become teachers.

Crappy pay but job security will never accomplish that. Competent people don't need artificial job security, we make our own.


you: negative reinforcement

me: positive reinforcement

punitive employment works great on prisoners making license plates but not so well on educators.

Works pretty well in just about every other professional field in the country without unions. What do you do for a living?

jst3p: captain_heroic44: Get real. There aren't enough teachers right now, and municipalities still won't pay them crap.

There aren't an ideal number but all things being equal (meaning excluding situations like inner city schools) there are "enough". There isn't enough of a crunch for them. Parents don't think a 28:1 student teacher ratio is a problem. Watch it creep up to 35 or 40 and see what happens.

What you're talking about is pure speculation. Here's what we do know: right now, across the country, there is a teacher shortage. We also know that the nationwide teacher shortage has utterly failed to prompt meaningful pay increases for teachers. Sure. Letting the market drag education quality to a 40:1 student/teacher ratio might prompt some small increases in teacher wages, which over time might result in more people becoming teachers. But in the intervening decade or two, education quality drops to crap, and we get a generation of kids who may have met a teacher once sometime at school.

I have an alternative proposal. Go to the unions: offer a schedule of salary increases in exchange for more accountability for teachers. Will they take it? If the price is right. If the raises are enough to compensate for lost job security, you bet they will. If they're not, unions will say, "nope, our teachers would rather have the job security they have than the $500/year raise your offering. Nice try though."

If society ponies up, so will the unions. That's the way a free market is supposed to work.

But here's the reality: municipalities just don't like paying for schools. In Missouri, at least, passing school bonds is one of the hardest things to do. Rural red Americans just don't think education is a value, and they would not pony up to offer teachers more salary under any conditions. Hence the move to break the unions: right-wing authoritarians are angered by the fact that they don't hold absolute power over teachers, and they want to change that.

Until someone offers a union real salary increases in exchange for dropping job security, I'll side with the teacher unions every time.

ttintagel: Well, it wasn't the unions deciding what products to make at GM and Chrysler, or what to charge for them, or how much the executives got compensated. Auto manufacturers in Germany and Japan are unionized, and they're not doing so badly because they're better-managed.

So much misinformation here. The Auto Companies are not in the trouble they are in because they were managed poorly or making the wrong cars. Guess what, SUV's are GM's highest selling market and making them the most money.

The problem they ran into is nobody is buying cars right now. The volume of sales has hit a record low. I'm no expert, but I can see the fact that nobody can get credit having an impact on their ability to purchase a car; I can also see someone very concerned about their job, hesitating when thinking about plunking down 30K and a five year commitment to payments.

They made some bad deals with the Unions that are hurting them now when volume has dried up, but that doesn't change the fact that the auto companies are victims of the Economy Tanking (You know caused by that housing bubble) not the cause of it.

/Doesn't mean I support Bail Outs for em, I'm mixed due to where I live.

Apik0r0s:
I'm using the godsdamned term as we all know it now - of course it's corporatism dipshiat, but this isn't 1840 so I'll use the farking words we all use today. Take the pedantic stick out of your arse and try to see the farking point.

When we have an Administration, a Congress, and whole political party dedicated to the elimination of the private sector on the notion that capitalism doesn't work, I think it time to get back to basic definitions.

Very nice how your name calling moves the argument forward, however. Brilliant repartee. Or is that word too old for you?

And still, no matter what year you're talking about, capitalism is not collective.

jst3p: Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: my solution is to motivate non incompetent people to become teachers.

Crappy pay but job security will never accomplish that. Competent people don't need artificial job security, we make our own.


you: negative reinforcement

me: positive reinforcement

punitive employment works great on prisoners making license plates but not so well on educators.

Works pretty well in just about every other professional field in the country without unions. What do you do for a living?

just about every other professional field in the country without unions pays better, so what's your point?

captain_heroic44: What you're talking about is pure speculation.

Of course it is, I am just some farker.


Until someone offers a union real salary increases in exchange for dropping job security, I'll side with the teacher unions every time.

I snipped your post for the sake of saving space. I like your proposal, at least it is doing something to change the system. But unions giving up protecting lazy workers? That is about as realistic as my "plan".

Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: jst3p: Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: my solution is to motivate non incompetent people to become teachers.

Crappy pay but job security will never accomplish that. Competent people don't need artificial job security, we make our own.


you: negative reinforcement

me: positive reinforcement

punitive employment works great on prisoners making license plates but not so well on educators.

Works pretty well in just about every other professional field in the country without unions. What do you do for a living?

just about every other professional field in the country without unions pays better, so what's your point?

In part because at my place of employment the number of viable workers is not kept artificially high by protecting those who do not perform.

I don't know...
THIRD BASE!

CBR ME ASAP: RemyDuron: MasterThief: Bloody William: Because it's the fault of the unions that the housing bubble burst? Because it's the fault of the unions that companies like Enron and Worldcom farked California over? Because it's the fault of the unions that the economy has collapsed after the September crash? Because it's the fault of the unions that financial institutions became "too big to fail" after Gramm-Leach-Bliley?

No, because it is the fault of the unions that GM and Chrysler are on government life support, and because it is the fault of the unions that America's public education system is the laughing stock of the industrialized world, and because it is the fault of the unions that California and New York are in such dire financial straits due to pension and benefit overcommitments to public employees.

Unions are human institutions just as much as corporations, no better and no worse. Goose, gander, sauce, and all that.

BWAHAHAHA!

You're a farking moron.

If the unions benefits caused GM to go under, why did GM sign the god damn contracts? They AGREED to every single benefit the workers get. And the unions have been giving concessions for years now.

And our education system sucks because we have a lot of people with very bad home situations. Short of requiring all sub-par students to go to boarding schools OR vastly improving the home situation of a great many students, there is no way to fix that. It has little to nothing to do with the Teacher's Union. People have an inflated idea of what teachers can do. Sure, an exceptionally bad teacher can turn students off, but really, I'd say, 99.9% of the time, a teacher has no bearing at all whether children learn or not. If they don't want to learn it takes an exceptionally good teacher, a rare human being, to get them to want to learn. If they want to learn it would take an exceptionally bad teacher to make them not want to learn. The children wanting to learn is the important part, and that comes from home.

Public employees have a lot of benefits because, compared to private sector counterparts, they're underpaid. People always complain about government being slow and inefficient and you want to remove the single thing making government employment somewhat appealing?

Really, I'd love for the world to be such that unions weren't necessary. I'd love higher minimum wage laws, love to see it made illegal for companies to artificially increase staff turnover so they can keep benefits to a minimum, love to see companies not keeping employees just under full time, love to see strict anti trust laws and some big companies broken up. But it doesn't happen, or at least doesn't happen enough.

Sounds like you'd love to see a lot of good things, but you'll settle for shiat. Unions are filled with unskilled retards that don't deserve all of the benefits they are given.

If they are such unskilled retards, obviously the companies should not have signed the contracts, since unskilled retards should be easy to replace, right?

Unions are a stop-gap solution to abuses of workers in a capitalist system. Until we, as a country, understand that capitalism and socialism mean things besides "good" and "bad," they're about as good as we'll get.

Some unions probably need to be broken up, as do a great number of corporations IMO. I'd love to see a lot of the nation wide corporations broken up into regional companies, and the unions to go with them. That'd be fine. But it has to be both, weaken them both, not one or the other.

Phil Herup: Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: it's more a usa thing to try and use fear and medical insurance to control workers.


Yet when John McCain proposed a real alternative to this, that would allow the worker to be in charge of his own insurance, thus empowering the worker. Everybody laughed. Even when he said there would be a large tax credit to pay the deductible. No... they can't tax my benefits...no.

Instead most of the minions laughed and bought Obama's "promised" congressional health care package for everyone hook, line, and sinker.

Now look who is also proposing the taxing of benefits.

The left can revise history as much as they want. You are probably a radical in a militia, just like all of the returning war vets.

Was a Teamster many years ago. They (employees) get manipulated worse by the teamsters than the company. If you weren't slow when you got employed, they'll make you slow.

Thank god it was only temporary and college prepared me to be responsible for my own future.

95% of posters on here don't even have a job, but all feel the need to shiat on unions.

Nemo's Brother: You are probably a radical in a militia, just like all of the returning war vets.

a radical wants reform.

reactionary is the term that you're searching for.

Nemo's Brother: Phil Herup: Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: it's more a usa thing to try and use fear and medical insurance to control workers.


Yet when John McCain proposed a real alternative to this, that would allow the worker to be in charge of his own insurance, thus empowering the worker. Everybody laughed. Even when he said there would be a large tax credit to pay the deductible. No... they can't tax my benefits...no.

Instead most of the minions laughed and bought Obama's "promised" congressional health care package for everyone hook, line, and sinker.

Now look who is also proposing the taxing of benefits.

The left can revise history as much as they want. You are probably a radical in a militia, just like all of the returning war vets.

You just revised history yourself while condemning it, that's what we call H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-I-C-A-L.

The Dog Ate The Constitution: 95% of posters on here don't even have a job, but all feel the need to shiat on unions.

I don't have a job...and I support unions.

So: FACE!

Apik0r0s - What exactly was stupid about my post? I made no distinction between public and private ownership, only showed that they are both COLLECTIVE in nature.

A bunch of shareholders invest in a company like Wal-Mart or Home Depot and directly support the killing off of smaller businesses that can't afford large scale operations in Communist China.

A bunch of welders in an area get together and demand to be paid what the market will bear.

Am I to feel bad for both? Neither? Explain.


What's stupid is that being 'collective' has nothing to do with what's significant to each system. The matter of ownership is what is significant.

You responded to a post in which someone was debating someone else who had claimed "Unions are the perfect form of socialism."

By claiming that communism is the collectivization of labor, you are suggesting that bargaining collectively is "communist." It's not. Socialism is the workers owning the damn factory. Communism is the community owning the factory under the aegis of the state.

Unions don't own the company, therefore unions are not socialist and damn sure not communist.

Bargaining collectively is capitalism...

Two workers saying

"he can't do the job without us, instead of undercutting each other for HIS benefit, let's work together for ours"

is no different than two companies saying

"you've got this segment of the market, we've nailed that segment, instead of undercutting each other and duplicating costs to divide it, let's work together and corner the whole damn thing and get better bargaining power with our suppliers to boot!"

technicolor-misfit: is no different than two companies saying

"you've got this segment of the market, we've nailed that segment, instead of undercutting each other and duplicating costs to divide it, let's work together and corner the whole damn thing and get better bargaining power with our suppliers to boot!"

Works for the Oil companies.

captain_heroic44: They enter the occupation knowing that the bargain is for the complete package: low salary but high job security. Just as the market deems they should have a low salary, it also deems that low salary should be compensated for with high job security. Eliminate the job security, start firing teachers, and teaching quality will go down. I guarantee it. Job security and love of the work are the only two reasons to become a teacher. Unions are guaranteeing that at least some competent people become teachers.

You know what else will guarantee job security? When no one wants to be a teacher because the pay is too low. (I imagine that there are some people who think that 40-50K for 9-10 months a year is a screw deal.)

But school districts faced with firing a poor performance teacher knowing that they cannot replace them because there are not enough teachers, will ALSO choose to keep a crappy teacher on staff, because a lousy teacher is better than no teacher.

So the end result on that particular point is the same with or without a union.

The problem now is that even WITH plenty of teachers, the unions have made it hard to fire the crappy ones, but have been unwilling (unable?) to provide some mechanism to ensure that teachers meet the highest standards.

So you get the worst of both worlds.

Nemo's Brother: You are probably a radical in a militia, just like all of the returning war vets.



No I'm just an asshole

jst3p: In part because at my place of employment the number of viable workers is not kept artificially high by protecting those who do not perform.

I don't know...
THIRD BASE!


Would like a word.

rcain: Never let the company tell you what they are willing to pay, come out with your salary requirements upfront. Paste them on your cover letter and repeat them at the appropriate time in the interview process, typically when you meet with HR. And always ask for more than you think you can get, because you might just get it and if you don't, you'll get damn close to it if you stick to your guns during negotiation.

And that is how it's always worked for me.

That is great that it works for you - maybe I'm just beat down, but I don't think that many people can pull that off.

BojanglesPaladin: jst3p: In part because at my place of employment the number of viable workers is not kept artificially high by protecting those who do not perform.

I don't know...
THIRD BASE!


Would like a word.

Very nice. I Led, OL.

Terryg999:

Unions have done their share and should be outlawed.

Yes Yes let's outlaw the unions so the corporations can again abuse their workers. Profits above all else and anyone who gets in the way will be crushed.

Your an idiot.

tryptik: That is great that it works for you - maybe I'm just beat down, but I don't think that many people can pull that off.

Unless yor salary expectations are roughly in line with the position you are applying for, all you will do with this behavior is fast-track your resume to File 13 at HR. Of course, this will also mean you don't get called in for an interview for a position you wouldn't take, so it saves everyone time.

If they are already in line with the position being applied for, then, then yes, that topic should be broached during the interview. They should bring it up, but if they don't you should. If nothing else, to ensure you are not wasting each other's time.

As someone who hires people regularly, I find putting your salary expectations on a cover letter a bit obnoxious, but then I post salary ranges with my job listings.

Just my .02 from the other side of that hiring desk.

sparkeyjames: Yes Yes let's outlaw the unions so the corporations can again abuse their workers.

Unions are no longer the only safeguard against labor abuse. In fact, they are largely obsolete now with labor laws and every State having a labor board of some kind.

Nothing Sweeter Than Redneck Tears: dont blame the unions for the car industry. blame the management that keeps oking the craptastic gashogging clunkers that have been pumped out for some time now.

who would want to buy these things?

The problem is not that nobody wants to buy US-made cars, the problem is that they're too expensive and still don't bring in enough profit. Car companies have to pay enormous amounts for wages, unemployment, retirement benefits, etc., while Japan skates by ignoring most of this and uses the extra profits to advertise everywhere. Unions just protect the lazy and/or stupid, while preventing non-union workers from entering the industry.

To a lesser extent, teachers' unions have also messed up American education. You can't fire the worst teachers without a lot of hassle, and the unions do everything they can to stomp innovation and hard work (since a teacher producing results shows up everyone else). There was one case I read about recently where the school board voted to give results-based bonuses to teachers. Grades rose by like 20-30% in a year, and what did the union do? Pushed to get its people into the school board so they could squash the program. It might give other people ideas...

jst3p: Very nice. I Led, OL

Oh...he's our shortstop...

sunlion: Unions are what made America a great country, period. Love it or leave it.

I love this simple black and white thinking. Must make your life so easy to see things so clearly. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we see shades of gray and live in a world slightly more complex then yours.

kenposan: sunlion: Unions are what made America a great country, period. Love it or leave it.

I love this simple black and white thinking. Must make your life so easy to see things so clearly. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we see shades of gray and live in a world slightly more complex then yours.

Wow somewhere in that vague shades-of-grey comment there was a point. I think.

whidbey: Wow somewhere in that vague shades-of-grey comment there was a point. I think.

More of a point than is found in yours, I think.

whidbey: I don't have a job...

You mean "I'm not a slave to 'The Man.'" right?

BojanglesPaladin: whidbey: Wow somewhere in that vague shades-of-grey comment there was a point. I think.

More of a point than is found in yours, I think.

Oooh snark.

GoldSpider: You mean "I'm not a slave to 'The Man.'" right?

I'm not, actually. It's kind of boring. I need to re-enslave myself, and soon...:)

jst3p
No, my solution is to make it easier to fire teachers for poor performance. This will result in the poor performing teachers stepping up or not teaching kids. Both of which are preferable to staying in the system and milking it.


So, let me get this straight, if your kid is a retard fark-stick (like his parents) that does nothing in class (like his parents, apparently), and his parents are simply too busy shooting guns and drinking Busch to help him (no surprise), then a teacher should be fired for his/her incompetence and inability to perform? Are you really that stupid?

Maybe, just maybe, parents should help their son/daughter learn and stop blaming schools, and they should take an active role in their offspring's education. Seems to be working very well with the Chinese...

Deborah Greenfield, is now a high-ranking deputy at Labor, who also worked on the Obama transition team on labor issues.

So does that mean she gets to fie the "less detailed" conflict report?

NamBud: So, let me get this straight, if your kid is a retard fark-stick (like his parents) that does nothing in class (like his parents, apparently), and his parents are simply too busy shooting guns and drinking Busch to help him (no surprise), then a teacher should be fired for his/her incompetence and inability to perform? Are you really that stupid?

If you think a single under performing student would be the sole determinant in the firing of a teacher, you aught to step aside and let the grown-ups figure this out.

GoldSpider

"If you think a single under performing student would be the sole determinant in the firing of a teacher, you aught to step aside and let the grown-ups figure this out."

If you are stupid enough to think that parents would not pursue this line of thought, you need to get a life (Check out the local Playboy Cheerleader coach).

Stupid people like you in large groups do a lot of harm to society.

NamBud: jst3p
No, my solution is to make it easier to fire teachers for poor performance. This will result in the poor performing teachers stepping up or not teaching kids. Both of which are preferable to staying in the system and milking it.


So, let me get this straight, if your kid is a retard fark-stick (like his parents) that does nothing in class (like his parents, apparently), and his parents are simply too busy shooting guns and drinking Busch to help him (no surprise), then a teacher should be fired for his/her incompetence and inability to perform? Are you really that stupid?

Maybe, just maybe, parents should help their son/daughter learn and stop blaming schools, and they should take an active role in their offspring's education. Seems to be working very well with the Chinese...

Adult literacy rate in China ~ 91%
Adult literacy rate in the US ~ 99%

Yeah, lets follow their lead.

Are you honestly saying you don't believe that there are a significant number of poor teachers that, were it not for their union, would have been fired long ago and that poor parenting is the only cause of the problems in our public school system?

NamBud: If you are stupid enough to think that parents would not pursue this line of thought, you need to get a life (Check out the local Playboy Cheerleader coach).

Parents pursue a lot of stupid things. The right thing to do is tell them "NO" and then "GTFO".

There, that was easy, wasn't it?

NamBud: So, let me get this straight, if your kid is a retard fark-stick (like his parents) that does nothing in class (like his parents, apparently), and his parents are simply too busy shooting guns and drinking Busch to help him (no surprise), then a teacher should be fired for his/her incompetence and inability to perform? Are you really that stupid?

Maybe, just maybe, parents should help their son/daughter learn and stop blaming schools, and they should take an active role in their offspring's education. Seems to be working very well with the Chinese...

No, the student should be placed in the proper class for his grade level and motivated to perform well from there. Parental involvement is certainly very important, but there's no reason why teachers should be using lack of parental involvement as an excuse for not doing a good job themselves. Good teachers can become almost surrogate parents, while bad teachers just ignore (or drug) anyone above or below average.

Teacher's unions have to take some of the blame, though, for doing their best to squash innovation. It's hard to be a good teacher when being a good teacher gets you fired. It's no surprise that private schools far outperform public schools, even though they pay their teachers less.

jst3p

Adult literacy rate in China ~ 91%
Adult literacy rate in the US ~ 99%

Literacy is not the sole indicator of our school system, but I think you know that, as you are arguing the opposite point.

For a nation that is not completely industrialized, that is pretty damn good. In fact, let's look at the numbers...
91% China = ~ 1,210,000,000
99% USA = ~300,000,000

They have a few more literate people than us...

Yeah, lets follow their lead.

Yeah, let's, as you grammar could use the help.

Are you honestly saying you don't believe that there are a significant number of poor teachers that, were it not for their union, would have been fired long ago and that poor parenting is the only cause of the problems in our public school system?

Now, that is a worthwhile question. No, I don't believe that. Though, I am not a fool that would attribute it solely to the teachers either. It is the system. The teaching profession quite simply does not pay enough money to get intelligent people in the classroom. If our brightest from industry taught our children, we would be much better off, but no, people like you just want to punish teachers instead of getting to the root cause.

jst3p:
I'm pretty sure he means Chinese in America, where as a rule, Parents are far more involved and diligent in thier children's education.

NamBud: Yeah, let's, as you grammar could use the help.

Self-pwnage is the BEST!

So could my typing.... :)