Oldiron_79: You expect people to spell correctly on 4/20? Some people are too busy rolling another one to reread for typos.

I certainly didn't when I hit post after typing "untying it FORM a hitching post"...

*sigh* : (

/not even stoned

bunner: Cathedralmaster: Ah, Willoughby, where a man can slow down to a walk and live his life full measure...

One of the best episodes, ever.

I lived about 12 miles from Willoughby, OH, so it was pretty weird to watch that and think "that's just down the road".


Yeah, I live near Willoughby too.

This was a nice one.

RoxtarRyan: erewhon: The thing is, though, that a lot of EMP scenarios depend on a nuke causing a significant amount of HF and VHF EM signal radiation.

High altitude detonation FT end of humanity.

You intrigue me, good sir. Occupation?

Well, in the Army I had a sort of combo "education" MOS that was relevant to comms and bombs. Got out, got a masters in EE, went to work for DOE in a quirky subspecialty department called ESA-WER for a while, hated it. A group of similar background guys got together, decided that there was probably a market for EE's and physics majors that had "unusual relevant backgrounds" and we started a consulting company. We do oddball one-shot designs, systems integration debugging, some small production for the military for stuff they can't find and don't want to wait around for. We sometimes do development kits for weirder parts for the big semiconductor houses, we do firmware work for BIOS's that are in classified stuff (I think we're the only one).

We've done a lot of radio, radar and DSP work, some avionics and weapon systems design stuff I can't talk about, you name it. We've got a restricted access facility and a small SCIF.

ToxicMunkee: RoxtarRyan: Trouble ahead: How the sun storm might look in London
...really?

Holy red giant, Batman. Superman

FTFY.

Is this the Rosicrucians?

erewhon: MrSteve007: not impressed

read it, non-fiction always makes for a better story.

Doesn't apply here.

It doesn't apply in that the damage is caused from different sources, however the mode and effects are identical. The instant E1 component of an EMP attack is what concerns most about electronics, however, the longer lasting E3 part of the pulse is identical to damage caused by solar storms and is what will damage transformers.

Like I said, it's a good read.

The History Channel went all apocalyptic yesterday. Like hours of how the earth will end and how it probably won't be too long.

I am not even attempting to build a retirement fund until 2013. Just to make sure I am not wasting all that fun I could have with the money I am saving.

MrSteve007: however, the longer lasting E3 part of the pulse is identical to damage caused by solar storms and is what will damage transformers.

There is a lot of really long-wave E1 that does in a lot of the long lines on antennas and transmission lines. In fact, the weapons generally expend the bulk of their energy in longer wave (less than 15 MHz) radio emissions from Compton-effect electron interaction.

But yes, the E3 component is similar to what happens in a CME, only it's shorter in duration. But again, it's all due to geomagnetic disturbances and magnetotelluric current induction. One causes counterpoise current flow, and the other induces what is essentially a DC component in the line which causes saturation inductance collapse.

However, there isn't an E1 or E2 component to a CME, and that's what most of the thread seems to be about. No, it won't wipe out "all electronics" (even an E1 won't), it is going to pop long line transformers primarily, with a side order of LF and VLF radio damage. There's some question about effects on long metal structures such as bridges and the like as well, although that would take the mother of all CME events. But you won't see HF and VHF damage to PCB mounted components like you might with a HAND.

OK, on this one I'll claim expertise. I have a PhD in Space Physics (anyone got a JOB?) and have published papers in Journal of Geophysical Research, Geophysical Research Letters and Space Weather. I've even met the guy they implied they got the info from. He's a reputable scientist who would have never said what they are implying in the article.

A solar flare with a CME has 2 parts, the radiation that travels at the speed of light, and the particles that move much slower. The NORMAL speed of the solar wind is ~450 Km/sec or ~ 1 million miles an hour. This means that normally it takes 3-4 days to get to us. The particles from the 2 flares that made up the superstorm of 1859 moved 5X that speed, arriving at Earth 17 hours and 40 minutes after their flares were observed. For more on the superstorm and likely technological problems written for the layman look for the August 2008 issue of Scientific American.

Needless to say, since it took me years to learn about this stuff, I'm not going to cover it in 1 Fark post. If you have a specific question email me.

What a sunstorm over London may look like.

Only if the sun were in the process of expanding before going Nova.

When it comes to the electrical grid:erewhon what he said.

newton: Turn up Haarp. It can strengthen the ionosphere for the hit. Shields Up.

at least two technologies were researched, partially at HAARP, partially elsewhere(s), that would ameliorate the impact of a CME.

Um.... NO
I've been at HAARP and worked for a couple months at HIPAS, the HAARP precursor. The most HAARP can do is wiggle the altitude that the electrical currents run through the atmosphere at, and then only directly overhead. It is a heater, that is it. Since they were doing some work for the Navy (trying to find ways to talk to subs through really freakin long wavelengths - but only during magnetic storms) some nutcase got the idea that it was some sort of black ops thing and has been flooding the internets with their warrgarbble. I've collected some of the stories - my favorite is how HAARP has been moved to the east coast and replicated. Running all 3 at once causes a rip in spacetime and there are dinosaurs running around New Jersey.

NotARocketScientist: Um.... NO
I've been at HAARP and worked for a couple months at HIPAS, the HAARP precursor.

CME's deposit energetic charged particles in the magnetosphere that circulate for years, causing bremstrahhlung emission of x-rays upon impact with the satellite structure. One of the functions tested at HAARP (actually, the first test was at Siple Station by Dr Helliwell) was in precipitation of trapped electrons from the inner magnetosphere to reduce this. The technology has since been significantly developed and is not, I believe, still tested at HAARP, but it was worked on there early on.

There was also a set of experiments on inducing magnetotelluric currents by wobbling the auroral electrojet, that's also been worked on elsewhere now in a bit different way, but as I said, I see that as being a bit more chancy. It has its own proponents but I don't see it going anywhere.

NotARocketScientist: I've collected some of the stories - my favorite is how HAARP has been moved to the east coast and replicated. Running all 3 at once causes a rip in spacetime and there are dinosaurs running around New Jersey.

Will they eat the street gangs? : )

Fascinating.

Thanks.

NotARocketScientist: I've collected some of the stories - my favorite is how HAARP has been moved to the east coast and replicated. Running all 3 at once causes a rip in spacetime and there are dinosaurs running around New Jersey.

I don't know about dinosaurs (it would likely improve New Jersey...) but, uh, there may be some truth to the story. I have a lot of fun trying to figure out how the story got started. In the case of that one, there was a military research project in that area that specialized in creating upper atmosphere radar mirrors. I could see the story mutating and being linked to HAARP, since that was also tested there at some point.

It is pretty convenient to be able to do this, not only for radar. It can be handy to make a radio duct or mirror to listen in to things you might not be able to otherwise, without a specialized satellite in the vicinity.

CME's deposit energetic charged particles in the magnetosphere that circulate for years,

90+% of these propagate out through the loss cone in a matter of days to weeks. Anything that takes longer than that is making the grand tour and spending all it's time several 10s of Re away form the planet in the outer magnetosphere.

There was also a set of experiments on inducing magnetotelluric currents by wobbling the auroral electrojet,

This is how they were inducing long wavelength radio waves in the earth, ionosphere waveguide, capable of being picked up by a submerged submarine. They decided they didn't want to limit their communications to only when a storm was happening though and cut the budget.

I have a lot of fun trying to figure out how the story got started. In the case of that one, there was a military research project in that area that specialized in creating upper atmosphere radar mirrors. I could see the story mutating and being linked to HAARP, since that was also tested there at some point.

A propagating electromagnetic wave will be reflected when the plasma frequency equals the wave frequency. Since the plasma frequency is dependent on the density, they heat the ionosphere till it has the right density. It justs heats. Another reason that it might have gotten the reputation problem it did was some bright boy decided to use unmarked, black vans with smoked glass as the facility vehicles. One of the other stories are that HAARP causes birds to fly backwards (I guess aerodynamics doesn't get a vote). They even have the film to prove it.

NotARocketScientist: some nutcase got the idea that it was some sort of black ops thing

Have you read this one yet? It's sort of long, but it embraces many different levels of wharrgarbl, from secret NSA police that arrest you for violating Navy NDAs, to HIPAS being a death ray, to PFRR being used to shoot down aliens or something. Oh, and they toss in Sumerians.

Have you read this one yet? It's sort of long, but it embraces many different levels of wharrgarbl, from secret NSA police that arrest you for violating Navy NDAs, to HIPAS being a death ray, to PFRR being used to shoot down aliens or something. Oh, and they toss in Sumerians.

DAMN! I worked at HIPAS and they never showed me the Deathray! Actually the people there might have trained it on our boss if we had one. I also worked at Poker flat and didn't get to see the alien ship tracking system! I feel gyped

GoDawgs!: The Sun is there

Buhahahah!! Oh, man, if i could have saved viewing that for a day when everything was pissing me off.. :D

StokeyBob: This was a nice one.




These aren't my colors.

NotARocketScientist: A propagating electromagnetic wave will be reflected when the plasma frequency equals the wave frequency. Since the plasma frequency is dependent on the density, they heat the ionosphere till it has the right density. It justs heats.

Sure. Never said it didn't, just that they did experiment with building radio mirrors that way, and there is a facility in New Jersey that was build to do nothing but that, so I can see how it got linked, maybe. Signal ducting and mirrors are big hairy deals for SIGINT.

The trick with clearing out trapped electrons from high altitude nuclear detonations is a really important one to the gubmint. As you say, most of them are gone in weeks to months but that is long enough to cause significant damage to orbital assets. Using cyclotron resonant interactions, you can precipitate it out in a few hours to a day, there's a couple of tricks to do this from orbit, one uses a near-field technique, and another uses far-field interactions that cause non-linear plasma responses. It's a lot more efficient to do it from orbit than from the ground, but you can still do it from the ground.

Did you ever get to work on the SAR obscuration project?

"Welcome to the human race."

approves

NotARocketScientist: They decided they didn't want to limit their communications to only when a storm was happening though and cut the budget.

They've pretty much terminated ELF as a submarine comm system anyway. It's not just the electrojet wobbler project, although you have to admit that was pretty inspired. Nowadays they use VLF, and "something else" is going to come along soon that's even weirder and less direct than you might imagine.

Weaver95: Good a reason as any to finally get one of these.

plus it was on sale on ebay. so that's always nice.

so now I need to get myself a toughbook laptop of some sort (something in/around the $400-$700 price range), and start pondering a food/medical supply.

That's pretty awesome!

So you'll be the only one with a laptop and a powersupply.

FarkII?

Tatsuma: tinfoil-hat maggie: I thought zombies where caused by comets.

Nuclear fallout, actually.

Should I be worried, since I live about a mile and a half away from Limerick nuclear plant?

/need to stock up on ammo
//what's that book that describes how to survive a zombie uprising?

This whole thread and hardly a reference to global warming. Disappointing, very disappointing.

I'm off to watch Mad Max 2 again.

Did you ever get to work on the SAR obscuration project?

no, didn't get a chance to. Saw plenty of talks on it though.

/sorry about the delay - was in the Hawkings thread

eddyatwork: NewportBarGuy: Mayan calender

I always figured the real story behind the calendar ending was the guy was working on it and it was 4:15 on a Friday before a long weekend and some of his buddies stopped by and told him they were going to the bar and he said fark the calendar it's like 700 years from now, somebody's bound to work on it before then and he left early to go drinking.

... and then got iced by a Conquistador?

Cathedralmaster: Looks like a ripoff of this article from New Scientist last March:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127001.300-space-storm-alert-90-second s- from-catastrophe.html?full=true

Ice cores show that Carrington-level events happen only once about every 500 years.

l2read, the date on that article is March 23rd, 2009.

Guess I'll start buying some guns, then.

Not that I really needed the excuse.

Alright look...

Solar flares can be bad. The largest ones it can throw at us could cause damage to our electrical grid, certainly, and definitely knock out plenty of satellites and cause general havoc for a while. But it is not going to send us back into the stone age, that is just silly.

Furthermore, our Sun is a VERY stable middle-aged star and has very few truly massive flares. There have been a handful over the centuries, but nothing that might warrant doomsday preparations.

And everyone says I was crazy when I invented the rubber-band powered hard drive!

Giblet Quote 2009-04-20 04:16:12 PM
nicksteel: AppleOptionEsc: WE ALL GONNA DIE Channel, Brought to you by the church of a church.

It's kinda off topic, but I'm so sick of the History Channel being more about how we might all die. Pro Tip: History has to happen first. You can have have all the death and gloom of future apocalypses after we all die.

/I hot linked that image
//Hot like Nostradamus, the Mayans, and a giant gamma ray burst

I have to agree with you. The second biggest problem are all of the different shows that go out hunting for big foot, the Loch Ness Monster, UFOs, ghosts (it goes on and on) and all they do is spend an hour walking around in semi-darkness and they never find anything. In a real world that would constitute a failure on every episode. Now people are willing to see around and watch people fail - I blame SURVIVOR.

I used to really enjoy the history channel until a couple of years ago when they got on the UFO/bigfoot/Nostradamus kick, but the reality shows are what really ruined it for me. Ice Road Truckers, The lumberjack show...really? WTF does any of these things have to do with history. They should really just change the name of teh channel, its almost like false advertising at this point.

Watch out, the Sun is angry!

/hot like Heavy Metal

RoxtarRyan: Trouble ahead: How the sun storm might look in London

...really?

That bit truly did make me laugh out loud.

Wolgan: Cathedralmaster: Looks like a ripoff of this article from New Scientist last March:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127001.300-space-storm-alert-90-second s- from-catastrophe.html?full=true

Ice cores show that Carrington-level events happen only once about every 500 years.

l2read, the date on that article is March 23rd, 2009.

And the date on the Daily Mail article is April, 2009. Hence, the daily mail article looks like a ripoff of the article from New Scientist. Which is precisely what I said. "this article" refers to the article from New Scientist I referenced with the link following the colon. Where's the confusion?

So after Dec. 21 2012. What will us apocalypse loving farkers have to look forward to?

/More foobies

Djh8: So after Dec. 21 2012. What will us apocalypse loving farkers have to look forward to?

/More foobies

I'm hoping someone brings back the John Titor hoax personally.

Helen_Arigby: RoxtarRyan: Trouble ahead: How the sun storm might look in London

...really?

It looks like how I always pictured Charn. Except with a lit-up clock face. Never pictured that...

So at least if it happens, we'll know better than to strike the bell.

Wow, you're right! Didn't think about that.

Any tall "beautiful" people uttering the deplorable word over there lately?

/in other news, watched LWAW tonight.
//joked that the kids ran into a dark haired kid wearing glasses on the train out of london.
///"Oops, sorry, wrong movie..."

nicksteel: emnar: Why do these articles (not just the Daily Fail) always assume nobody will be fixing the broken equipment?

Yes, if something like that happened it would be a royal pain in the ass and civilization might be disrupted for a week or three. And during those days, it will definitely pay to be prepared with food, guns, etc. But they'll fix the broken stuff eventually and things will get back to normal -- it won't take decades.

A week or three??? You are extremely optimistic, aren't you? Last September it took the local power company 8 days to restore power to some 300,000 customers in Ohio, after a wind storm knocked down wires and poles. And to do that, they had to bring in crews from as far away as North Carolina to do that.

Now, imagine if the local crews could expect no help from other areas and ALL of the transformers on all of those power poles had to be replaced. In this subdivision, each house has a dedicated transformer. It is not a rare thing to see these days, either.

Let alone the sub stations and all of the other equipment that is going to require repair. Three weeks?? It will take three weeks to complete a plan to attack the problem.

Unfortunately this is also what happened in the Pacific NW after the 2008 storms. We also took several days to get power back to *some* people, using trucks coming from as far away as Pennsylvania.

And don't even talk to me about 2006...we didn't have power for over a week in subfreezing temps. It was 35F INSIDE the apartment. (yes, our insulation is crap.)

This happens too much over here not to plan for extended periods without power, so we might be okay. (extra large fireplaces, better insulation, growing/hunting your old food.)

/Just need to get that solar panel, for that one month we get sun, so we can play Worms2 on the laptop.

ursomniac: damageddude:
Would it make a difference if the power companies powered down and went off line just before the storm hits?

Yes. Yes it might.

Now explain to the rest of us how they're supposed to know this.

Recall that light travels at --- the speed of light. So looking at the Sun, you're seeing what happened there 8m20s ago.

If something happened five minutes ago, it's on its way, and we'll see it in 3m20s.

So what's the radius of the warhead?
5 miles.
What's the range of the gun?
3 miles.

/nothing is obscure on fark.

"Mayan Prophecies" by Adrian Gilbert and Maurice Collette.

They found this link with the Mayan calendar years ago. The general premise is that the 22 year peak-to-peak solar flare cycle is part of a much larger event that occurs in which that the Mayans observed and recorded for their mysterious long cycle.

Plausible. I guess if we're lucky (or not) we'll find out.

Tatsuma: reillan: I'm prepared because I play fantasy MMOs.

Are Violent Videogames Adequately Preparing Our Children For the Coming Apocalypse?

Epic win.

Master Chief: Empathize

Oh god! Now THAT'S obscure!

I for one will be prepared with a machete and a balacalver

bunner: Well, in the Army I had a sort of combo "education" MOS that was relevant to comms and bombs. Got out, got a masters in EE, went to work for DOE in a quirky subspecialty department called ESA-WER for a while, hated it. A group of similar background guys got together, decided that there was probably a market for EE's and physics majors that had "unusual relevant backgrounds" and we started a consulting company. We do oddball one-shot designs, systems integration debugging, some small production for the military for stuff they can't find and don't want to wait around for. We sometimes do development kits for weirder parts for the big semiconductor houses, we do firmware work for BIOS's that are in classified stuff (I think we're the only one).

We've done a lot of radio, radar and DSP work, some avionics and weapon systems design stuff I can't talk about, you name it. We've got a restricted access facility and a small SCIF.


That. Is the coolest thing. I have ever heard of. Give me a few more years of experience and I will ask for a job application.

Jeff73: bunner: Well, in the Army I had a sort of combo "education" MOS that was relevant to comms and bombs. Got out, got a masters in EE, went to work for DOE in a quirky subspecialty department called ESA-WER for a while, hated it. A group of similar background guys got together, decided that there was probably a market for EE's and physics majors that had "unusual relevant backgrounds" and we started a consulting company. We do oddball one-shot designs, systems integration debugging, some small production for the military for stuff they can't find and don't want to wait around for. We sometimes do development kits for weirder parts for the big semiconductor houses, we do firmware work for BIOS's that are in classified stuff (I think we're the only one).

We've done a lot of radio, radar and DSP work, some avionics and weapon systems design stuff I can't talk about, you name it. We've got a restricted access facility and a small SCIF.


That. Is the coolest thing. I have ever heard of. Give me a few more years of experience and I will ask for a job application.

I have no idea how that got attributed to me but the post that the database spits out is one about Fairchild compressors. That post's not anywhere on this page.

Dixie_Wrecked: micah1701: Came for Ham Radio reference. Over in 4.

So why don't you upgrade to at least General so you can enjoy more fun?

sorry for the late reply... I'm taking a course right now. Hopefully I'll pass the test early this summer.