Rockdrummer: many brave men and women have died fighting for the freedom of our country which allows you to be a self centered idiot

Why do people say this?

Those brave men and women were fighting brave men and women who were fighting for the freedom of their own country, or possibly for the right to conquer other countries.

Chances are, whatever country you're a citizen of, people have died for it. That doesn't make it magically awesome.

The pledge is the biggest BS in school. was announced over the intercom from the time i started school til i farking graduated. after 3rd grade i just stood there so no one would look at me weird, I didn't even say it. I think that after you figure out what every word means in school, you shouldn't have to say it.

No natural born American should have to stand, sit, dance a jig during an anthem, nor should they be REQUIRED to recite one.

When I was a little kid and we recited the pledge of allegiance I always used to wonder if the "Republic Forwitchistan" was anywhere near Pakistan or Afghanistan.

Good thing we all recited those meaningless words every morning.

BrynnMacFlynn: I remember being yanked out of class by the vice principal of my high school for not saying the pledge and sitting in class. I objected to the whole God bit, and that I felt the reasons for the school making the pledge required were simply post 9/11 hysteria, rather than being motivated by any sort of beneficial thing.

He lined me up with three of my friends against the lockers and yelled at us in our faces for about half an hour about how we were disrespecting him as a former military man and every man and woman overseas in Afghanistan and Iraq, and how unAmerican we were. He missed the part where I'm a descendant of a Mayflower pilgrim, and that my great uncle worked for the Department of Defense, and that my uncle was a former Air Force man.

/refuses to say the pledge unless she means it

If you went to public school, you had an easily winning lawsuit there.

Sherlock Holmes N. Gardens: As a non-American, I've always been fascinated by this public ritual of yours. It was manufactured, as I understand it, in the 1950s at the same time all that 'Under God' business was added everywhere to differentiate the American body politic from the godless Reds.

That I get. What I don't get is how lining up to chant in unison, an oath that was written in the most conformist of American periods -- the post war red scare period -- is how you articulate your belief in individual choice. And woe to anyone who doesn't toe the line.

SH.
/Not bashing.
//Just interested

How's the air up there on your high horse? Conformist? Woe to anyone who doesn't toe the line?

Some of us take pride in living in this nation, and we like to express it. I've never said the pledge because I had to. I have always recited it with pride and gratitude for those who sacrifice so much to make the life I live possible.

Like I said upthread, I don't agree with forcing someone to say it, but those who think of it as some stupid ritual to be done reluctantly in front of some meaningless piece of cloth obviously live pretty empty lives. If you don't take pride in where you live, why would you choose to live there? If you choose to live there because it merely suits you the best, why are you so ungrateful to the nation responsible for providing you the lifestyle you enjoy?

Sherlock Holmes N. Gardens: As a non-American, I've always been fascinated by this public ritual of yours. It was manufactured, as I understand it, in the 1950s at the same time all that 'Under God' business was added everywhere to differentiate the American body politic from the godless Reds.

That I get. What I don't get is how lining up to chant in unison, an oath that was written in the most conformist of American periods -- the post war red scare period -- is how you articulate your belief in individual choice. And woe to anyone who doesn't toe the line.

SH.
/Not bashing.
//Just interested

The Pledge itself was written in 1892 (by a socialist minister who later became an atheist). The Under God business was, indeed, added by Eisenhower.

Most Americans are taught nothing about any of this.

I don't care if they don't say it if it goes against personal convictions but not standing is a show of disrespect...if they can't say the pledge of alligence to the country they call home...STFU AND GTFU

I would say not standing amounts to the same as denouncing their US citizenship.

GOOD!! They should stand during the pledge. If somebody dosnt want to say "under god", then dont say that part, but if you live in this country and go to school here, you should say the pledge. I had to when I went to school, and never thought twice about it. Now a very small percentage of people have a problem with it, and we as a majority have to go along with them so their feelings dont get hurt. BULL shiat!!! fark THEM!!
Stand the fark up or sit the fark down on the immigration bus so it can drive your ass out of here!!

jst3p: Emposter: The flag is not just "an object." The American Flag represents the United States of America, as is explained by the pledge itself. By taking the Pledge of Allegiance, you are pledging your loyalty to the United States of America. If you are unwilling to take this pledge, then I don't think you should be allowed to be a US citizen,

As if I were given a choice? To play devil's advocate: What does it prove? If someone isn't loyal they will just say the words anyway, it is like asking someone if they are lying to you.

I'm not going to get into the rights of minors with you, that's for another day. But as soon as you turn 18 you do have a choice...you can go live somewhere else.

If you think someone saying a string of words proves anything you are kind of simple minded.

Your straw man argument fails. I never said that that saying the pledge proves you are loyal. I said that if you refuse to pledge loyalty to the country you are a citizen of, you don't deserve to be a citizen.

As an aside, it's an interesting comparison that in the US, the right of centre party is the party of patriotism, flags, trumpets and drums while in many of the other industrialized democracies, it's the parties on the left which are the nationalists.

tonesskin: OH MY GOD, THE SECOND AMENDMENT MAKES ME SO ANGRY! I AM OUTRAGED BY THE BILL OF RIGHTS!

pkellmey: deadplant: Nationalism is akin to racism.

Err, wait, you believe each nationality is a separate race? How in the world do you fill out government forms?

I'm sure you're already well aware, but there's no difference saying "I'm better than you because I'm white." and "I'm better than you because I'm American.".
So yeah, nationalism is akin to racism.
/I know you knew that

Credy: Some of us take pride in living in this nation, and we like to express it.

Exactly! We are proud to be here and like to express it by forcing other people to say the pledge and judging them when they don't!

Emposter: I said that if you refuse to pledge loyalty to the country you are a citizen of, you don't deserve to be a citizen.

Yes you do.

Emposter: Your straw man argument fails. I never said that that saying the pledge proves you are loyal. I said that if you refuse to pledge loyalty to the country you are a citizen of, you don't deserve to be a citizen.

So saying a string of words I don't mean makes me worthy of citizenship? Do you see how stupid that sounds?

I stood up to say the Pledge when I was in school, but I never said the "under God" part. I think you should stand up, but if you don't want to say anything, just keep your mouth shut. I knew plenty of people who did that. We'd all stand, they'd just stand there silently and then sit back down when it was over. I didn't even put my hand over my heart, I had them folded in front of me.

No one ever said anything to me about it.

Credy: but those who think of it as some stupid ritual to be done reluctantly in front of some meaningless piece of cloth obviously live pretty empty lives.

If by empty lives, you mean able to think for themselves, you're right.

Approves.



/wait... whut?

mark12A: OMG!!! Requiring the Snowflakes to show a *minimal* amount of respect to the country that provides them with more freedom and opportunity than anywhere else on the planet! Ungrateful biatches.

lol wut

Rockdrummer: Yeah, let's not get off our fat asses and pledge allegiance to a flag representing a country that is providing a free education and rights to choose while many brave men and women have died fighting for the freedom of our country which allows you to be a self centered idiot. Oh yeah, better keep the social security and government benefits coming on time too, eh?

/Need to toss some of these libtards in front of an invading army so they know what it means to fight for something.

//Yeah I'm an older curmudgeonly guy. So What? Get the hell off my lawn.

Does that include gay rights? Racial equality? Because I recall you being very vocal and outspoken against those things in the past. I guess all the men and women who you so overdramatically resurrected so you could parade them in that pathetic appeal to emotion that you call an argument only died for white, heterosexual males.

Credy: Like I said upthread, I don't agree with forcing someone to say it, but those who think of it as some stupid ritual to be done reluctantly in front of some meaningless piece of cloth obviously live pretty empty lives. If you don't take pride in where you live, why would you choose to live there? If you choose to live there because it merely suits you the best, why are you so ungrateful to the nation responsible for providing you the lifestyle you enjoy?

You have a nasty habit of creating false dichotomies. This isn't the first time I've pointed this out either.

Why do you have such trouble dealing with other people's opinions at face value?

Sherlock Holmes N. Gardens: Emposter:
When they turn 18, they can choose to move to somewhere else and not be American citizens. I don't see how anyone can expect the benefits of being a citizen of a country without being loyal to it. It's part of a basic social contract.

But my point is that this ritual is a socially conformist one, and that's a separate issue from actual civic loyalty.

There are lots of socially conformist rituals. What exactly is it that makes this one so terrible again?

Epsilon: Talon: Children should not be forced to pledge to the flag in any capacity, including being forced to stand

I agree with this. In America, all people, including kids, should be free to choose whether or not they want to pledge their allegiance (or recite the little prayer that Congress slipped in 60 years ago). The right to dissent is an absolute right, and the exercise thereof does not make one a 'traitor' as some conservatives suggest.

Just say the f*cking thing, I mean really. Is it gonna change their beliefs or suddenly brainwash them?

/why not let them choose to drink or smoke
//or have sex with their hot-ass teachers?
///where does 'they have a right to choose' end in regards to minors?

solokumba: /there have been many times i've flown glory this way
//waiting for the onslaught of trolls, neocons and freepers
///i will farking own you on a discussion of the flag so you better be ready
////or i'll just ignore you like usual

Ok then, under what circumstances have you? I knew a guy in college who did all the time. He had green hair and worked as a barista.

Emposter: There are lots of socially conformist rituals. What exactly is it that makes this one so terrible again?

It need not be terrible to be opposed. If you are going to stick it in the school day, the burden is yours to provide a reason why its so wonderful.

What exactly makes this socially conformist ritual so wonderful again?

I plead alignment to the flakes of the you-know-whats of amnesia.

It's asinine that a child should be forced into swearing allegiance to a symbol that ostensibly protects their rights to not swear.

bline21: ///where does 'they have a right to choose' end in regards to minors?

I can't wait til you have kids. I'm sure you are going to think exaaaactly the same way.

I guess common courtesy, decency and respect are no longer in vogue. Isn't it nice to have all your freedoms and liberties. Rather pitiful that you don't feel at all compelled to minimally show some reverence in return.

I love how everyone is turning it into a pledge issue when it is about standing.

If you are going to observe the pledge, or a national anthem, then, out of respect for that country, you should stand.

As far as the US Pledge of Allegiance... You are pledging to a FLAG. An inanimate object. That alone is pretty goofy.

Then you pledge to the republic it stands for. Ok, this makes a little more sense, but every day? That seems a bit like brainwashing. I don't pledge every day now, so does that mean that I'm any less of a US citizen?

/ Didn't do the Pledge in high school.
// Still stood when others did it.

give me doughnuts: There's something to be proud of: Being a descendant of people who were such uptight assholes they were kicked out of England, and turned away by the Dutch.

When you put it that way, I might be part of that group as well... I will have to look into it.

Shut up and show respect you worthless punks. To all the complainers that see 'God' and start throwing fits, grow up.

Talon: Children should not be forced to pledge to the flag in any capacity, including being forced to stand (and thereby acknowledge the flag and the pledge). Forcing children to partake in the pledge in any capacity goes against religious freedom: first for those who consider the whole ritual on par with breaking the whole
'worship no god but me' thing (such as Jehova's witnesses), and second for those children whose parents do not want them participating in what essentially amounts to a declaration of belief in the Judeo-Christian God and belief in his personal interaction in the wellbeing of America.


"STOP, IT'S A TRICK! They're duping you into participating in religion!"

Consider the following hypothetical:
-At 9:00 a.m., I recite the Pledge of Allegiance - a solemn oath of loyalty to my country, its government, and its designated cloth symbol.
-At 10:00 a.m., said government goes nuts and does something heinously evil - say, drops a nuke on Paris.
-At noon, the rest of the nations of Europe declre war on the U.S. to avenge the bombing. Soon, after, the President appears on TV calling for all able-bodied men to volunteer for military service to repell the coming invasion.

Am I now, by virtue of my "Pledge", morally bound to fight for this government that has committed such an evil? If so, is this the kind of promise that anyone should be willing to make? If not - if the Pledge is just some pretty words, and not a real, binding oath - then why bother with it in the first place?

bartink: bline21: ///where does 'they have a right to choose' end in regards to minors?

I can't wait til you have kids. I'm sure you are going to think exaaaactly the same way.

Way to deflect!

Emposter: Emposter:
What exactly is it that makes this one so terrible again?

I never said it was terrible. I said it was interesting.

Credy: Certainly there is conformism, and a great deal of social expectation about it. Imagine the world of shiat that would be unleashed in any one hoping to get into public office who didn't want to participate in this ritual.

Secondly, 'those who think of it as some stupid ritual to be done reluctantly in front of some meaningless piece of cloth obviously live pretty empty lives' is, in itself, a valuation, I'd observe again that this is a pretty unique ritual amongst the industrialized democracies.

Students are still expected to *gasp* waste time with idol worship before they can actually begin learning.

FTFSubby.

Don't want to say the pledge?

Fine.

Get the fark out of the government schools

Have a nice day.