Matt. 5:34-7 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

I am not as religious as I used to be but it would be interesting to see someone argue that the pledge violates their religious beliefs.

I know it is a stretch.

Talon: Diogenes:
I know this is rather illiberal of me.....

I think you should not force kids to say it under certain circumstances (foreign nationals, exchange students, etc.) But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.

Why? And how can you reconcile that with a belief (I presume you have) that people ought to have religious freedom.

It's not just about uppity atheists being forced to say "God" (however much merit such a thing has), but also religious persons (Christian and otherwise) who may have legitimate religious objections to pledging allegiance to an object in the name of a Judeo-Christian deity.

It's not about what you "should" or "shouldn't" do, but what a public facility is requiring you to do. And imo the very notion of a pledge to an object is outdate, and at the very least silly. People shouldn't have to promise a flag that they will be loyal to their country to demonstrate their patriotism.

The flag is not just "an object." The American Flag represents the United States of America, as is explained by the pledge itself. By taking the Pledge of Allegiance, you are pledging your loyalty to the United States of America. If you are unwilling to take this pledge, then I don't think you should be allowed to be a US citizen, though I don't mind at all if you refuse to say the words "under God," as they have no real relevance. As logically follows, I have no objection to non-US citizens not reciting the pledge, though I would expect them to still stand out of respect for the nation which allows you to reside here.

amiker77: what's the protocol for the national anthem?

"When the national anthem is played or sung, U.S. citizens should stand straight and rigid and salute at the first note and hold the salute through the last note. The salute is directed to the flag, if displayed, otherwise to the singer."

from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_a_national_anthem_etiquette

Salute? for the whole song? Fark that shiat.

deadplant: Nationalism is akin to racism.

What moron started this stupid meme?

Quit indoctrinating your children with belief systems. Teach them reason instead.

Everybody cries out that kids are out of control because the parents aren't teaching them ethics/morals. FYI, those are belief systems.

Without ethics or morals, reason and logic could easily justify the most horrific actions imaginable.

deadplant: Nationalism is akin to racism.
Quit indoctrinating your children with belief systems. Teach them reason instead.

The only thing similar is they both end in "ism". Sorry that you think they are similar, but they are not. It is fine to have pride in something, and you don't have to be a racist to have pride in your community, state or country, regardless of where in the world you are from.

Standing for the flag is expressive conduct. This seems unconstitutional.

One of my teachers back in high school called me a communist for sleeping through the pledge... Douche.

As a non-American, I've always been fascinated by this public ritual of yours. It was manufactured, as I understand it, in the 1950s at the same time all that 'Under God' business was added everywhere to differentiate the American body politic from the godless Reds.

That I get. What I don't get is how lining up to chant in unison, an oath that was written in the most conformist of American periods -- the post war red scare period -- is how you articulate your belief in individual choice. And woe to anyone who doesn't toe the line.

SH.
/Not bashing.
//Just interested

Wasn't this settled over half a century ago by SCoTUS?

FTA: Yancey said he would hold an additional meeting on Monday afternoon to discuss the matter.

Not to bust the chops of school board bureaucracy, but this is why nothing gets done in this country. It's a simple matter of a "sit or stand" decision on a traditional Pledge, and it requires more than one meeting?

/Just make a decision already.
//And if they're made to stand.
///You better cattle-prod that kid in the wheelchair.

/Foreign exchange and otherwise can go sit in the corner and think about what they've done.

Gecko Gingrich: Also, I feel compelled to point out that time and again, the US Court system has upheld the idea that Rights don't even begin to start until you're 18.

Ok, if the kids don't have rights, then why force them to pledge allegience to a flag that doesn't give them any rights?

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

The Pledge of Allegiance is strictly voluntary and the state cannot force a citizen (including students) to participate in any way.

I can't believe that over 65 years later that School Boards haven't realized this is the law of the land and well established Constitutional issue. They must either act in ignorance or get some really bad legal advice if they think they can force any student to even acknowledge the Pledge of Allegiance. Certainly, the school can stop a student who may disrupt things, but they can't force them to participate - including making them stand during the recitation.

mypalmike:

OK, got it... I should probably start doing the hand-over-the-heart thing myself, then, or make up a great fake name for when the "true" patriots ask me for it...

Diogenes: Talon: Children should not be forced to pledge to the flag in any capacity, including being forced to stand (and thereby acknowledge the flag and the pledge). Forcing children to partake in the pledge in any capacity goes against religious freedom: first for those who consider the whole ritual on par with breaking the whole
'worship no god but me' thing (such as Jehova's witnesses), and second for those children whose parents do not want them participating in what essentially amounts to a declaration of belief in the Judeo-Christian God and belief in his personal interaction in the wellbeing of America.

I know this is rather illiberal of me.....

I think you should not force kids to say it under certain circumstances (foreign nationals, exchange students, etc.) But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.

Agreed. Same reason I take my hat off at the baseball game. If you are going to participate, do it as it was meant to be done.

Always stood for the pledge, never said it.

I think a pledge is an important piece of civic unity, but doesn't forcing someone to say it defeat the principles this country was founded on?

But we should ask them to stand. You're teaching respect for other people's beliefs. If they don't want to stand, they need to give a good reason for it that shows that they object to American policies and are sitting out of protest. A teachable moment, if you will.

Not that I really care too much about this topic but...

If these parents/children are not willing to pledge loyalty to the United States, why are they willing to take advantage of services offered by the United States? Or even willing to live in the United States? I know it's unconstitutional to force someone to pledge allegiance and contrary to the idea our nation was founded on, but why in the hell would anyone not loyal to the nation be willing to live in it, pay into it and use the services it provides?

If you're not willing to express your loyalty to the United States, it doesn't really make much sense for you to be a part of it now does it?

Look guys, if you don't stand during the pledge it no longer has its magical powers. Be a good citizen and pledge to the piece of cloth.

Diogenes: But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.


Damn straight.

Emposter: The flag is not just "an object." The American Flag represents the United States of America, as is explained by the pledge itself. By taking the Pledge of Allegiance, you are pledging your loyalty to the United States of America. If you are unwilling to take this pledge, then I don't think you should be allowed to be a US citizen, though I don't mind at all if you refuse to say the words "under God," as they have no real relevance. As logically follows, I have no objection to non-US citizens not reciting the pledge, though I would expect them to still stand out of respect for the nation which allows you to reside here.

Racist! Hate-monger!

ichiban: Diogenes: But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.


Damn straight.

So people with hunched backs can't say the pledge?

"Without ethics or morals, reason and logic, religion is often used to could easily justify the most horrific actions imaginable."

FTFY.

I said the Pledge of Allegiance every day in school until the 8th grade when I moved to Texas and I learned that Texas has their own pledge. Having to learn the new one and think about what it meant me realize they were both pretty stupid, and I haven't said it since.


...do any other states have their own pledge? I think it's pretty asinine.

As a non-American, I've always been fascinated by this public ritual of yours. It was manufactured, as I understand it, in the 1950s at the same time all that 'Under God' business was added everywhere to differentiate the American body politic from the godless Reds.

Oh the disingenuity! It's not like countries all over the world don't have similar customs.

whyarefartslumpy: Actually, in this case the flag is a symbol and not an object. As compared to pledging alliegance to a toaster or burned out dildo. I am in favor of the pledge, but believe that it is stupid to make it mandatory

The problem with doing so is that you're teaching blind unthinking obedience instead of ensuring the country is worthy enough of allegiance for a rational thinking person to say the pledge and mean it. Jingoism and fascism aren't patriotism, if anything, they're the exact opposite.

deadplant: Teach them reason instead. Smart.
Nationalism is akin to racism. Not so much.
Quit indoctrinating your children with belief systems. Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos.

/there have been many times i've flown glory this way
//waiting for the onslaught of trolls, neocons and freepers
///i will farking own you on a discussion of the flag so you better be ready
////or i'll just ignore you like usual

Emposter: The flag is not just "an object." The American Flag represents the United States of America, as is explained by the pledge itself. By taking the Pledge of Allegiance, you are pledging your loyalty to the United States of America. If you are unwilling to take this pledge, then I don't think you should be allowed to be a US citizen,

As if I were given a choice? To play devil's advocate: What does it prove? If someone isn't loyal they will just say the words anyway, it is like asking someone if they are lying to you.

If you think someone saying a string of words proves anything you are kind of simple minded.

If you choose to recite the pledge of allegiance, you should stand to do so. However, I agree that no one should be 'forced' to say it, or even recite it in full. I know several people that omit "under God" from the pledge when they say it, though they still say it.

There are many stories of heroism and patriotism that work much better at reinforcing my love for country than a repetitive public prayer that's based on a pretense.

Sherlock Holmes N. Gardens: What I don't get is how lining up to chant in unison, an oath that was written in the most conformist of American periods -- the post war red scare period -- is how you articulate your belief in individual choice. And woe to anyone who doesn't toe the line.


When they turn 18, they can choose to move to somewhere else and not be American citizens. I don't see how anyone can expect the benefits of being a citizen of a country without being loyal to it. It's part of a basic social contract.

Yeah, let's not get off our fat asses and pledge allegiance to a flag representing a country that is providing a free education and rights to choose while many brave men and women have died fighting for the freedom of our country which allows you to be a self centered idiot. Oh yeah, better keep the social security and government benefits coming on time too, eh?

/Need to toss some of these libtards in front of an invading army so they know what it means to fight for something.

//Yeah I'm an older curmudgeonly guy. So What? Get the hell off my lawn.

Sherlock Holmes N. Gardens: As a non-American, I've always been fascinated by this public ritual of yours. It was manufactured, as I understand it, in the 1950s at the same time all that 'Under God' business was added everywhere to differentiate the American body politic from the godless Reds.

I'm pretty sure it pre-dates the 50's, (as show by the fascist salute further up in the thread). But everything else you said is right. It smells of a conformism and blind loyalty, which you would think goes against the American ideals of individuality and free participation.

OniNeko: If you choose to recite the pledge of allegiance, you should stand to do so.

Why?

You ever notice that nearly all pledge and flag pin enthusiasts are the first to talk about the need to have guns to overthrow the democracy?

You ever notice many are from the South and are the descendants of secessionists?

I remember being yanked out of class by the vice principal of my high school for not saying the pledge and sitting in class. I objected to the whole God bit, and that I felt the reasons for the school making the pledge required were simply post 9/11 hysteria, rather than being motivated by any sort of beneficial thing.

He lined me up with three of my friends against the lockers and yelled at us in our faces for about half an hour about how we were disrespecting him as a former military man and every man and woman overseas in Afghanistan and Iraq, and how unAmerican we were. He missed the part where I'm a descendant of a Mayflower pilgrim, and that my great uncle worked for the Department of Defense, and that my uncle was a former Air Force man.

/refuses to say the pledge unless she means it

I_Am_Weasel: Hey you, kid. Stand up and salute the symbol of your freedoms or you'll be in trouble.


this

Emposter:
When they turn 18, they can choose to move to somewhere else and not be American citizens. I don't see how anyone can expect the benefits of being a citizen of a country without being loyal to it. It's part of a basic social contract.

But my point is that this ritual is a socially conformist one, and that's a separate issue from actual civic loyalty.

Talon: Forcing children to partake in the pledge in any capacity goes against religious freedom:

So, my American History book is now a religious book? I love the part where Washington parts the Delaware and leads his people across.

ne2d: Things like this don't bother me a bit, because I have a life.

And the government wants to do something about that.

Credy: Not that I really care too much about this topic but...

If these parents/children are not willing to pledge loyalty to the United States, why are they willing to take advantage of services offered by the United States? Or even willing to live in the United States? I know it's unconstitutional to force someone to pledge allegiance and contrary to the idea our nation was founded on, but why in the hell would anyone not loyal to the nation be willing to live in it, pay into it and use the services it provides?

If you're not willing to express your loyalty to the United States, it doesn't really make much sense for you to be a part of it now does it?

People's reasons will vary. I personally live here simply because I was born here, I have family here, and there are very good private education institutions in this country. Many hope to change the country into something better by being a part of it. I wouldn't assume that everyone "takes advantage of the services" that this country provides either, except in the vaguest sense. For example, I haven't used the fire service, police service, public education service, welfare service, health service or pretty much any other service this country has to offer. I know you'll say the military protects my freedoms, and I personally think that's a steaming crock of shiat, but we can agree to disagree there. As for pledging, no, I don't feel the need to pledge anything to anybody, much less some empty nationalist symbol.

Credy: Not that I really care too much about this topic but...

If these parents/children are not willing to pledge loyalty to the United States, why are they willing to take advantage of services offered by the United States? Or even willing to live in the United States? I know it's unconstitutional to force someone to pledge allegiance and contrary to the idea our nation was founded on, but why in the hell would anyone not loyal to the nation be willing to live in it, pay into it and use the services it provides?

If you're not willing to express your loyalty to the United States, it doesn't really make much sense for you to be a part of it now does it?

Well they're little kids we're talking about here. Require them to swear oaths at 18 to receive full adult citizenship, fine. But little kids who can't even understand the implications? They cannot form any kind of contract, why should they be able to swear an oath of that magnitude.

I have the same issue with things like baptism and confirmations, fwiw. We should be educating our kids about things like citizenship and religion, and then letting them choose for themselves once they have the knowledge and maturity and we're ready to call them adults.

bartink: You ever notice that nearly all pledge and flag pin enthusiasts are the first to talk about the need to have guns to overthrow the democracy?

You ever notice many are from the South and are the descendants of secessionists?

OH MY GOD, THE SECOND AMENDMENT MAKES ME SO ANGRY! I AM OUTRAGED BY THE BILL OF RIGHTS!

Huh.

My feeling run thusly . . .

I've pledged my allegiance. It's not like it washes off at night. Once pledged, you shouldn't have to re-up one's allegiance every morning between the lunch menu and field trip notices. And making children stand and recite words they don't understand serves no purpose I can see.

Hollywood Cole: Stoj: Being forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance ruined my life. I am still in counseling to this very day.

:(

*E-pat on the back* It's ok buddy. I too was forced to say something I didn't full understand as a child and it farked me up also.

I'm a preachers kid.
/there, I win.

I had to stand and recite the Lord's prayer and sing God Save The Queen every day in grade school. Then in grade 7 the country turned heathen I guess because that went out of fashion.