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(Local6)   Students are still expected to *gasp* STAND during the Pledge of Allegiance   (clickorlando.com) divider line 389
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8199 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2009 at 2:20 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-04-15 12:11:02 PM  
Whose bright idea was it to change it in the first place?
 
2009-04-15 12:14:36 PM  
Diogenes: Whose bright idea was it to change it in the first place?

Someone who understands the Constitution? I know, I know. Not likely in Florida.
 
2009-04-15 12:29:17 PM  
Children should not be forced to pledge to the flag in any capacity, including being forced to stand (and thereby acknowledge the flag and the pledge). Forcing children to partake in the pledge in any capacity goes against religious freedom: first for those who consider the whole ritual on par with breaking the whole
'worship no god but me' thing (such as Jehova's witnesses), and second for those children whose parents do not want them participating in what essentially amounts to a declaration of belief in the Judeo-Christian God and belief in his personal interaction in the wellbeing of America.
 
2009-04-15 12:34:53 PM  
You can make them stand, you can even force them to say it.
You can't make them believe it.
By forcing them you push them that much further away from ever believing it.
 
2009-04-15 12:35:31 PM  
You expect kids to stand? Have you seen how fat they've gotten?
 
2009-04-15 12:39:16 PM  
Talon: Children should not be forced to pledge to the flag in any capacity, including being forced to stand (and thereby acknowledge the flag and the pledge). Forcing children to partake in the pledge in any capacity goes against religious freedom: first for those who consider the whole ritual on par with breaking the whole
'worship no god but me' thing (such as Jehova's witnesses), and second for those children whose parents do not want them participating in what essentially amounts to a declaration of belief in the Judeo-Christian God and belief in his personal interaction in the wellbeing of America.


I know this is rather illiberal of me.....

I think you should not force kids to say it under certain circumstances (foreign nationals, exchange students, etc.) But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.
 
2009-04-15 12:48:25 PM  
Diogenes:
I know this is rather illiberal of me.....

I think you should not force kids to say it under certain circumstances (foreign nationals, exchange students, etc.) But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.


Why? And how can you reconcile that with a belief (I presume you have) that people ought to have religious freedom.

It's not just about uppity atheists being forced to say "God" (however much merit such a thing has), but also religious persons (Christian and otherwise) who may have legitimate religious objections to pledging allegiance to an object in the name of a Judeo-Christian deity.

It's not about what you "should" or "shouldn't" do, but what a public facility is requiring you to do. And imo the very notion of a pledge to an object is outdate, and at the very least silly. People shouldn't have to promise a flag that they will be loyal to their country to demonstrate their patriotism.
 
2009-04-15 12:53:06 PM  
Talon: Children should not be forced to pledge to the flag in any capacity, including being forced to stand

I agree with this. In America, all people, including kids, should be free to choose whether or not they want to pledge their allegiance (or recite the little prayer that Congress slipped in 60 years ago). The right to dissent is an absolute right, and the exercise thereof does not make one a 'traitor' as some conservatives suggest.

That being said, if you decide to recite it, I think it's proper to stand. I said the pledge regularly as a kid, and if I had kids I would encourage them to, but I would explain what it means and give them the choice.
 
2009-04-15 12:56:33 PM  
Talon: Diogenes:
I know this is rather illiberal of me.....

I think you should not force kids to say it under certain circumstances (foreign nationals, exchange students, etc.) But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.

Why? And how can you reconcile that with a belief (I presume you have) that people ought to have religious freedom.

It's not just about uppity atheists being forced to say "God" (however much merit such a thing has), but also religious persons (Christian and otherwise) who may have legitimate religious objections to pledging allegiance to an object in the name of a Judeo-Christian deity.

It's not about what you "should" or "shouldn't" do, but what a public facility is requiring you to do. And imo the very notion of a pledge to an object is outdate, and at the very least silly. People shouldn't have to promise a flag that they will be loyal to their country to demonstrate their patriotism.


I don't think the theological connection is as strong as you do. The flag represents the Republic. "Under god" is merely descriptive. Incorrect? Who can say? But it just doesn't bother me. I'm comfortable with regarding "god" as simply a concept.

And I wouldn't be saying "god" is only a Judeo-Christian deity, unless you want to toss yourself in with the people that insist we are a Christian country and that our laws moral code derives from the ten commadments.
 
2009-04-15 12:56:43 PM  
Things like this don't bother me a bit, because I have a life.
 
2009-04-15 12:57:47 PM  
Diogenes: But IF you're going to say it, you should do it properly and stand for it.

But what about Jehovah's Witnesses who don't want to say it on religious grounds?

\Would stand for the pledge
\\Wouldn't say it properly
\\\Teacher never noticed
 
2009-04-15 12:58:51 PM  
Diogenes: And I wouldn't be saying "god" is only a Judeo-Christian deity, unless you want to toss yourself in with the people that insist we are a Christian country and that our laws moral code derives from the ten commadments.

Those were the same people who added it to the original pledge.

\And they added "In god we trust" to the money, too
 
2009-04-15 01:00:15 PM  
ne2d: Things like this don't bother me a bit, because I have a life.

I think this is one of my favorite comments ever.

*We now return you to your regularly schedule Flamewar already in progress.
 
2009-04-15 01:01:16 PM  
The Icelander: But what about Jehovah's Witnesses who don't want to say it on religious grounds?

I think most of us are agreeing here that if you don't want to say it you should not be required to. Freedom of choice.

But if you choose to say it, it's proper to stand. Otherwise you're just doing it half-assed. Either do it right or don't do it at all. That's fair, isn't it?
 
2009-04-15 01:03:20 PM  
Pledging your allegiance to an object is on par with worshiping it. You are telling that object, the flag, that you will do something and swear to do so. I can see why people dont want to swear to tell the truth on the bible in court. If you have no allegiance to it, what meaning would it have anyway.
 
2009-04-15 01:05:41 PM  
I fully support kids' rights to Tweet the TXT of Allegiance.
 
2009-04-15 01:09:09 PM  
Epsilon: But if you choose to say it, it's proper to stand. Otherwise you're just doing it half-assed. Either do it right or don't do it at all. That's fair, isn't it?

I was unaware that we were talking about kids who were saying it while seated. It's one thing to force kids to stand if they have objections. It's another to get the chubby little snowflakes off their fat asses for thirty seconds so they can do something correctly.
 
2009-04-15 01:09:24 PM  
Diogenes: But it just doesn't bother me. I'm comfortable with regarding "god" as simply a concept.

I'm glad that *you* acknowledge that *you* get to make a decision for *yourself*. It's a shame *you* wouldn't allow others the same.

Diogenes: And I wouldn't be saying "god" is only a Judeo-Christian deity, unless you want to toss yourself in with the people that insist we are a Christian country and that our laws moral code derives from the ten commadments.

That's what we call a strawman.
 
2009-04-15 01:17:07 PM  
ne2d: Things like this don't bother me a bit, because I have a life.

I came here to post something very much like this except I was going to include. "With so many fat kids these days we need to get them up and moving around as much as possible. "
 
2009-04-15 01:19:18 PM  
Why are we still demanding loyalty oaths from our children?
 
2009-04-15 01:21:01 PM  
Being forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance ruined my life. I am still in counseling to this very day.

:(
 
2009-04-15 01:25:51 PM  
Stoj: Being forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance ruined my life. I am still in counseling to this very day.

:(


*E-pat on the back* It's ok buddy. I too was forced to say something I didn't full understand as a child and it farked me up also.
 
2009-04-15 01:27:58 PM  
The Icelander: Epsilon: But if you choose to say it, it's proper to stand. Otherwise you're just doing it half-assed. Either do it right or don't do it at all. That's fair, isn't it?

I was unaware that we were talking about kids who were saying it while seated. It's one thing to force kids to stand if they have objections. It's another to get the chubby little snowflakes off their fat asses for thirty seconds so they can do something correctly.


No. The issue is that the school is trying to force kids to stand even if they are not saying the pledge. It's unconstitutional, but worse, it's just about the most asinine use of petty authority ever.
 
2009-04-15 01:29:59 PM  
Also, I feel compelled to point out that time and again, the US Court system has upheld the idea that Rights don't even begin to start until you're 18.
 
2009-04-15 01:30:25 PM  
You stand up and properly salute your flag!

img145.imageshack.us
 
2009-04-15 01:38:02 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: Also, I feel compelled to point out that time and again, the US Court system has upheld the idea that Rights don't even begin to start until you're 18.

However, parental rights usually trump governmental rights. So, if a parent doesn't want the child to stand or say the pledge, they usually win.
 
2009-04-15 01:45:46 PM  
haemaker: However, parental rights usually trump governmental rights. So, if a parent doesn't want the child to stand or say the pledge, they usually win.

While in high school my parents' demands that my Fourth Amendment rights be upheld always seemed to fall on deaf ears. Same with my First Amendment rights. And Fifth. Sixth, Seventh and Eighth.
 
2009-04-15 01:55:23 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: While in high school my parents' demands that my Fourth Amendment rights be upheld always seemed to fall on deaf ears. Same with my First Amendment rights. And Fifth. Sixth, Seventh and Eighth.

...and on appeal?
 
2009-04-15 01:55:47 PM  
Excuse me Miss Perriwinkle but if you don't mind I'd like to invoke my filth amendment rights, or as you may know it - the unwritten "boner exemption."
 
2009-04-15 02:06:09 PM  
Hey you, kid. Stand up and salute the symbol of your freedoms or you'll be in trouble.
 
2009-04-15 02:25:34 PM  
Sybarite: You stand up and properly salute your flag!

I lol'ed, would lol again.
 
2009-04-15 02:25:54 PM  
take off your f*cking hats too!
 
2009-04-15 02:26:00 PM  
in their defense it is kind of hard to stand...the second time.

first time is when you take a pipe to their shins.
 
2009-04-15 02:27:01 PM  
We're still using that?

Jesus, it's not the '50s.
 
2009-04-15 02:27:24 PM  
I stand for the Pledge and place my hand over my heart (the bare minimum for respect), but I don't recite the words. I love this country and don't feel the need to prove it through loyalty oaths.
 
2009-04-15 02:27:29 PM  
When criminals in this world appear,
And break the laws that they should fear,
And frighten all who see or hear,
The cry goes up both far and near for
Under God,
Under God,
Under God,
Under God,

Speed of lightning, roar of thunder,
Fighting all who rob or plunder
Under God, woah-oh-oh, Under God!
 
2009-04-15 02:27:33 PM  
Nationalism is akin to racism.
Quit indoctrinating your children with belief systems. Teach them reason instead.
 
2009-04-15 02:27:41 PM  
It really must be nice to have so much time on your hands that you can focus on things of absolutely no consequence.
 
2009-04-15 02:27:56 PM  
State-sponsored loyalty pledge!
 
2009-04-15 02:28:44 PM  
Molavian: It really must be nice to have so much time on your hands that you can focus on things of absolutely no consequence.

Like Fark?
 
2009-04-15 02:30:05 PM  
God hates flags.
 
2009-04-15 02:30:55 PM  
OK, I have a real question about patriotism and respect and all that...

I know you're supposed to stand and put your hand over your heart for the pledge (if you choose to say the pledge), but what's the protocol for the national anthem? At hockey games, they tell the men to remove their hats, but they don't mention the hand over the heart thing. About half the crowd does it, half don't. Which is "correct," if it even matters?

/always wondered about that
//definitely not patriotic to yell "STARS!" when the words "stars" comes up in the anthem, but hey, I love me some Stars
 
2009-04-15 02:31:53 PM  
You stand up and properly salute your flag!

I vexillolol'd.
 
2009-04-15 02:32:27 PM  
swingerhead: Pledging your allegiance to an object is on par with worshiping it. You are telling that object, the flag, that you will do something and swear to do so. I can see why people dont want to swear to tell the truth on the bible in court. If you have no allegiance to it, what meaning would it have anyway.

Actually, in this case the flag is a symbol and not an object. As compared to pledging alliegance to a toaster or burned out dildo. I am in favor of the pledge, but believe that it is stupid to make it mandatory.

I have a pretty large flag that I am proud to fly at my house, and if it ever became "the law" to do so, I would promptly take it down. Or maybe fly it upside down. At least until the jack-booted thugs showed up.

/where'd I leave my foil beanie?
 
2009-04-15 02:33:07 PM  
I stood out of respect during the pledge in school.

I did not however say it, as I was and still am offended by the christian bullshiat that's been thrown in.

what's so hard about just standing and not saying anything?farking snowflakes.
 
2009-04-15 02:33:11 PM  
deadplant: Nationalism is akin to racism.

Err, wait, you believe each nationality is a separate race? How in the world do you fill out government forms?
 
2009-04-15 02:33:21 PM  
ZOMG FASCISM.

I actually did stand up once to say the Pledge.

The flag then raped me and killed my younger sister.

So please, don't put your child through those horrors.
 
2009-04-15 02:33:45 PM  
filth: No. The issue is that the school is trying to force kids to stand even if they are not saying the pledge. It's unconstitutional, but worse, it's just about the most asinine use of petty authority ever.

Oh, well then it's asinine.
 
2009-04-15 02:34:03 PM  
pkellmey: deadplant: Nationalism is akin to racism.

Err, wait, you believe each nationality is a separate race? How in the world do you fill out government forms?


With a pencil of contempt!
 
2009-04-15 02:34:31 PM  
amiker77: what's the protocol for the national anthem? At hockey games, they tell the men to remove their hats, but they don't mention the hand over the heart thing. About half the crowd does it, half don't. Which is "correct," if it even matters?

Current protocol (in the wake of 9/11) is that those who put their hands over their hearts are to write down the names of those who don't, and report them to the anti-terrorist hotline.
 
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