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(Guardian)   How many container ships does it take to equal all the world's cars in pollution? a) 15; b) 150; c) 1,500; d) 15,000. Goodbye Dollar Store. Hello SUV   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 279
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38853 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2009 at 2:26 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-04-14 07:44:00 PM
No, no. It's about carbon dioxide an AGW an Carbon Credits, yea, Carbon Credits.
Get yer Carbon Credits now, while you are still in panic mode.
OH, and lectric dream cars, get 'em now, going fast.
 
2009-04-14 07:48:50 PM
No! It MUST by my SUV that is dooming the polar bears!!! I will be CRUSHED if you tell me I am not personally responsible for the death of at least one fuzzy endangered animal!
 
2009-04-14 09:07:15 PM
How many container ships does it take to equal all the world's cars in pollution? a) 15; b) 150; c) 1,500; d) 15,000. Goodbye Dollar Store. Hello SUV

Well, there seems to be an absence of a certain ornithological piece. A headline regarding mass awareness of a certain avian variety.
 
2009-04-14 09:07:44 PM
I know, let's power them all with nuclear reactors!
 
2009-04-14 09:11:35 PM
Eco-nerds have known this for a while. It's why you should shop locally as much as possible, especially for food.
 
2009-04-14 09:17:04 PM
It seems to be a mostly unknown fact that the few million semi-trucks in this country pump out more pollution than all the cars combined. For years there was almost no regulation on the pollution produced by big rigs. The trucking industry has a very powerful and well funded lobby in DC.
 
2009-04-14 09:18:13 PM
Hippies shopping at Ikea just got more ironic.
 
2009-04-14 09:37:21 PM
Marcus Aurelius: I know, let's power them all with nuclear reactors!

Not a bad idea, actually. Lots of larger naval vessels run on nuke reactors.

One proviso: the reactors would be automated and sealed while at sea. Otherwise the pirates would be targeting the reactor contents instead of the ship cargo.
 
2009-04-14 09:43:57 PM
www.merchantnavyofficers.com

The Otto Hahn, an retired nuclear shipping vessel.


mancub.narod.ru
The Sevmorput a Russian nuclear icebreaker.
 
2009-04-14 10:10:09 PM
bobbette: Eco-nerds have known this for a while. It's why you should shop locally as much as possible, especially for food.

Nobody ever thinks about those things--how much energy is used packaging and moving around all our Stuff.

I was shocked when I found out last summer that a regular old 17-foot powerboat got about one mile to a gallon of gas.
 
2009-04-14 11:27:59 PM
cryinoutloud: bobbette: Eco-nerds have known this for a while. It's why you should shop locally as much as possible, especially for food.

Nobody ever thinks about those things--how much energy is used packaging and moving around all our Stuff.


I pretty much worry about it endlessly and have crises at the grocery store when I try to figure out whether organic lentils of unknown provenance could have cause more carbon to be emitted than locally grown beef.

/Ask me about the crushing guilt that accompanies shopping for clothing!
//Once you find out about this stuff, it's like Pandora's box
 
2009-04-14 11:35:05 PM
Always (c), etc
 
2009-04-15 12:00:37 AM
bobbette: I pretty much worry about it endlessly and have crises at the grocery store when I try to figure out whether organic lentils of unknown provenance could have cause more carbon to be emitted than locally grown beef.

/Ask me about the crushing guilt that accompanies shopping for clothing!
//Once you find out about this stuff, it's like Pandora's box


Wow, that's some ego you got there... the fate of the world hanging in the balance as you ponder the complexities of your actions at the grocery store.
Me, I shrug and consume freely.

Of course, I try to go with locally produced as much as possible, but it doesn't haunt my dreams or bother me at the store when I buy fresh produce when it's out of season here and I know damn well those tomatoes are coming from Mexico. Nope, I buy it and eat it up.

And it tastes good.
 
2009-04-15 12:11:28 AM
Why can't they bring back sailpower. Maybe they could used supersized kites or something.
 
2009-04-15 12:20:01 AM
Elzar: Why can't they bring back sailpower. Maybe they could used supersized kites or something.

There's a company that's actually trying the kite idea out. Popular Mechanics' (new window) website has a small blurb on an actual test. That page also has a link to a more detailed story.
 
2009-04-15 02:31:41 AM
i wonder what percentage of those container ships are carrying cars?
 
2009-04-15 02:31:44 AM
Maybe. But your SUV still isn't helping, especially when you use it to cart home truckloads of consumer goods from who-knows-where.
 
2009-04-15 02:33:22 AM
Bored Horde: Marcus Aurelius: I know, let's power them all with nuclear reactors!

Not a bad idea, actually. Lots of larger naval vessels run on nuke reactors.

One proviso: the reactors would be automated and sealed while at sea. Otherwise the pirates would be targeting the reactor contents instead of the ship cargo.


So use fairly thoroughly-activated fuel. It would get stolen once, then the world would laugh at the horrible deaths by radiation burn suffered by the pirates, then it would be left alone.

Additional bonus: highly enriched = possibility of a hijacked ship going Chernobyl on ya. Hell, I wouldn't target one.

Basically, let the russians build the civilian reactors, heh.
 
2009-04-15 02:34:42 AM
bobbette: organic lentils of unknown provenance

Now there's a band name.
 
2009-04-15 02:34:44 AM
And Maritime shipping is not counted under Kyoto
 
2009-04-15 02:35:59 AM
Okay, I get it, they don't like the bunker diesel in use. But counting the sulfur content of massive diesel engines against the mostly non-sulfurous gasoline engines in the cars is BS.

Compare the sulfur emissions against Chinese coal power. I think then we'll see a more realistic comparison.
 
2009-04-15 02:37:06 AM
rcain: bobbette: I pretty much worry about it endlessly and have crises at the grocery store when I try to figure out whether organic lentils of unknown provenance could have cause more carbon to be emitted than locally grown beef.

/Ask me about the crushing guilt that accompanies shopping for clothing!
//Once you find out about this stuff, it's like Pandora's box

Wow, that's some ego you got there... the fate of the world hanging in the balance as you ponder the complexities of your actions at the grocery store.
Me, I shrug and consume freely.

Of course, I try to go with locally produced as much as possible, but it doesn't haunt my dreams or bother me at the store when I buy fresh produce when it's out of season here and I know damn well those tomatoes are coming from Mexico. Nope, I buy it and eat it up.

And it tastes good.


Well, aren't you just a no-nonsense type of joe sixpack! Why, I bet you even drive a SUV on a tread mill 10 hours a day just to prove your no-nonsenseyness.
 
2009-04-15 02:38:10 AM
The problem with regulating international shipping emissions is that ships follow the law of the flag. If their vessel is registered and flies the flag of a given nation, they are subject to the jurisdiction of that nation's laws. Even if the US implements strict emission standards for ships in US waters, those laws won't govern a Russian-flagged ship carrying goods from Singapore to Rotterdam.

There's a reason why a ton of ships fly Liberian and Panamanian flags. Carnival Cruise Lines is able to get away with having such wretched health, environmental, and safety conditions because all but a small handful of their ships are Panama-flagged.
 
2009-04-15 02:39:03 AM
how much worse should I feel than the most inconsiderate fark on the road (bicyclist during rush hour) about how much "cancer and asthma" I cause on my way to work?
 
2009-04-15 02:40:25 AM
veale728: Always (c), etc


Not always.
img7.imageshack.us
 
2009-04-15 02:41:56 AM
Bored Horde: The Otto Hahn, an retired nuclear shipping vessel.

Wessel. Nooclear wessel.
 
2009-04-15 02:47:55 AM
That's what I love about this whole argument.

"Listen honey, I want to save the planet, so we need to start growing our own beets in the backyard, and reduce our carbon emissions to nil!" "Honey, that's insane, I'll crack open a bottle of wine." "No, it's not! You will admit that I'm totally sane or I will not have sex with you until August!"

"Listen dear, you wanted to live a sustainable lifestyle, and that's just precious, but all that means is that our new television is going to cost $9,599, your Blu-ray player will cost $1,299, and it will cost $55.99 per disc. Sure you'll be able to grow beets (which I love, by the way) but an uncompromising adherence to anti-globalism will only hurt more people than it helps."
 
2009-04-15 02:48:13 AM
I wonder how we could avoid having to ship so much crap all over the world...

I know! Make it yer own damn self.
 
2009-04-15 02:50:17 AM
And this is why the LA basin could have nothing but EVs on the road, yet still have tons of smog.
Port and coastal rules need to be strengthened and enforced.
 
2009-04-15 02:53:04 AM
bobbette: cryinoutloud: bobbette: Eco-nerds have known this for a while. It's why you should shop locally as much as possible, especially for food.

Nobody ever thinks about those things--how much energy is used packaging and moving around all our Stuff.


I pretty much worry about it endlessly and have crises at the grocery store when I try to figure out whether organic lentils of unknown provenance could have cause more carbon to be emitted than locally grown beef.

/Ask me about the crushing guilt that accompanies shopping for clothing!
//Once you find out about this stuff, it's like Pandora's box


I agree, Granville Island seems to ally some of my nuttiness about this, and this cool organic farm in Ladner before Westham Island.

/its kind of like watching Syriana and then getting the chills pumping gae
 
2009-04-15 02:53:29 AM
for those that buy at the store and think they're buying "locally"
(especially you organic loving morons.. 50% + in price! IT MUST BE GOLD!)

your an idiot

ever heard of a farmers market?
 
2009-04-15 02:54:46 AM
rcain: Nope, I buy it and eat it up.

And it tastes good.


That's some ego you got there.
 
2009-04-15 02:54:56 AM
This is where I get all smug and say that I haven't bought anything from China (and severely limited all other international purchases) in 18 months - it's really tough (especially having a 3 year old that wants toys), but it's worth it to me. The hippie liberal in me gets to play the "less pollution from shipping", "no slave labor" and "support local producers" cards, all in the same hand!

If you wanna try it, start with buying used/refurbished products (you'll save money too, and keep your economics more local) and search for "made in America" companies online - there are quite a few out there, and the more people that start doing this, the more likely it is that more companies will keep production in the states.

/smug mode off
//not really, but that's all for today.
 
2009-04-15 02:56:03 AM
rcain: Wow, that's some ego you got there... the fate of the world hanging in the balance as you ponder the complexities of your actions at the grocery store.
Me, I shrug and consume freely.


How is it an ego complex when you're trying to decide on how to cause the least harm for life on the planet? And how is it not an ego complex to feel that you are entitled to cause such harm?
 
2009-04-15 02:57:08 AM
/gas
//new keyboard
///Calling Dr. Freud
 
2009-04-15 02:57:41 AM
vert0: your an idiot

your

/your
 
2009-04-15 03:01:46 AM
cryinoutloud: bobbette: Eco-nerds have known this for a while. It's why you should shop locally as much as possible, especially for food.

Nobody ever thinks about those things--how much energy is used packaging and moving around all our Stuff.


Speak for yourself. I think about it all the time. Everyone should.
 
2009-04-15 03:01:57 AM
b>Zulgaines: vert0: your an idiot

your

/your


That's driving the point home.
 
2009-04-15 03:03:13 AM
Fail tag should come into play here for everyone that doesn't realize that they're not talking about carbon dioxide here, and that they don't emit as much carbon dioxide... just other cancer-causing pollutants. Sorry to bust your bubbles, global warming/wierding is still an issue, and *SHOCK* there's actually more than one environmental issue in this world.
 
2009-04-15 03:03:35 AM
Elvis_Pelt: rcain: Nope, I buy it and eat it up.

And it tastes good.

That's some ego you got there.


Eggo waffles with syrup! You can't blame him for eating those up, they do taste good...
 
2009-04-15 03:03:44 AM
mikebdoss: If you wanna try it, start with buying used/refurbished products (you'll save money too, and keep your economics more local) and search for "made in America" companies online - there are quite a few out there, and the more people that start doing this, the more likely it is that more companies will keep production in the states.

If you relegate yourself to buying only American-made goods, you end up killing dozens of third-world workers who would gladly have made cheap products to sell to your child. Globalism isn't a bad thing. It boosts up the collective economy of the world at the expense of the highest tier of the world (Americans), which isn't all that bad of a trade. Eventually other countries will create a booming middle class that will desire the quality that only American companies can provide.

If you want to indoctrinate your child to buy American because the CO2 emissions of foreign facilities melt the polar icecaps, by all means, go ahead. But at least give your kid the opposing side of the story, wherein his fanaticism towards American-made goods forces a girl in Thailand into prostitution instead of stamping pointless consumer shiat.
 
2009-04-15 03:05:22 AM
Don't blame the ships, blame the ocean!

Don't hate the playa, hate the game, yo.
 
2009-04-15 03:05:46 AM
vert0: for those that buy at the store and think they're buying "locally"
(especially you organic loving morons.. 50% + in price! IT MUST BE GOLD!)

your an idiot

ever heard of a farmers market?


Until you realise that the farmers markets are mostly people trucking the goods from long distances, or bought from wholesale produce houses...

/been in produce buisness for 15 years.
//keep dreaming.
 
2009-04-15 03:06:07 AM
rcain: bobbette: I pretty much worry about it endlessly and have crises at the grocery store when I try to figure out whether organic lentils of unknown provenance could have cause more carbon to be emitted than locally grown beef.

/Ask me about the crushing guilt that accompanies shopping for clothing!
//Once you find out about this stuff, it's like Pandora's box

Wow, that's some ego you got there... the fate of the world hanging in the balance as you ponder the complexities of your actions at the grocery store.
Me, I shrug and consume freely.

Of course, I try to go with locally produced as much as possible, but it doesn't haunt my dreams or bother me at the store when I buy fresh produce when it's out of season here and I know damn well those tomatoes are coming from Mexico. Nope, I buy it and eat it up.

And it tastes good.


farm4.static.flickr.com
 
2009-04-15 03:07:19 AM
mikebdoss: This is where I get all smug and say that I haven't bought anything from China...

I've been looking a lot more at the Made In tags on things. It's been pretty hard to not buy Chinese. I've still looking for a replacement thermostat with LCD display that isn't made there. And if I want any accessories for my XBox 360, I have to throw my hands up like a Frenchman and buy Chinese because I see no other alternative (except to give up my console, which is crazy talk).
 
2009-04-15 03:08:29 AM
Jim_Callahan: Bored Horde: Marcus Aurelius: I know, let's power them all with nuclear reactors!

Not a bad idea, actually. Lots of larger naval vessels run on nuke reactors.

One proviso: the reactors would be automated and sealed while at sea. Otherwise the pirates would be targeting the reactor contents instead of the ship cargo.

So use fairly thoroughly-activated fuel. It would get stolen once, then the world would laugh at the horrible deaths by radiation burn suffered by the pirates, then it would be left alone.

Additional bonus: highly enriched = possibility of a hijacked ship going Chernobyl on ya. Hell, I wouldn't target one.

Basically, let the russians build the civilian reactors, heh.


One word: Chernobyl.

Now now, I'm not saying nuclear power is a bad idea. I'm rather for it, myself. I'm just saying, don't let the farking Russians build civilian reactors.

As for everyone else who's shocked at this, what? You think you could afford that computer you're reading this on if we didn't ship things halfway across the world in mass quantities? Companies don't go out to buy crap from far away just to pollute more, they do it 'cuz it's cheaper, and as much money as they make off of it they do pass savings on to you (not as much as they should but it is a free market after all, welcome to Reality, where people don't care about you).

Basically, if you're living in an air-conditioned house in North America, you owe your standard of living to our modern transportation network. Even if you buy locally, even if you eschew all sorts of things, the mass consumer society that you reject has provided you with the ability to generate sufficient wealth to live more comfortably than any king or emperor has prior to the 20th Century. So your hypocrisy is noted.

/Still hopes for nuclear fusion.
//Generates insane amounts of energy, clean, and high-tech? Greenpeace will hate it.
 
2009-04-15 03:09:07 AM
mason4300: Eggo waffles with syrup! You can't blame him for eating those up, they do taste good...

Yeah, but is it Eggo syrup?
 
2009-04-15 03:10:45 AM
i242.photobucket.com

Should I not have bought that? Was that wrong?
 
2009-04-15 03:13:51 AM
Kierkegaard's Pseudonym: "Listen honey, I want to save the planet, so we need to start growing our own beets in the backyard, and reduce our carbon emissions to nil!" "Honey, that's insane, I'll crack open a bottle of wine." "No, it's not! You will admit that I'm totally sane or I will not have sex with you until August!"

"Listen dear, you wanted to live a sustainable lifestyle, and that's just precious, but all that means is that our new television is going to cost $9,599, your Blu-ray player will cost $1,299, and it will cost $55.99 per disc. Sure you'll be able to grow beets (which I love, by the way) but an uncompromising adherence to anti-globalism will only hurt more people than it helps."


I understand you don't care for environmentalism, but positioning an airheaded wife (that you speak to as though she were a dog or a small child) as your environmentalist paper tiger only reaffirms the prevailing view that there exists a near 100% overlap between the gas n' guns crowd and raging misogynists.

I understand that this doesn't make sense to you, but the whole "Green revolution" nonsense will be fantastic for the country. Prices will drop rather than rise as an expanding nuclear power grid supplemented by wind, solar, hydro and geothermal (where appropriate) will reduce the cost of electricity, in turn reducing the cost of fabrication and shipping as these ships will probably be some of the first large scale hydrogen powered vessels (that hydrogen having been produced by nuclear powered electrolysis.)

America's fleet of automobiles will gradually transition from gas to electric, with high density capacitors or lithium iron phosphate batteries providing the long ranges you crave (thanks in part to battery exchange infrastructure being built as we speak by Project Better Place) even as the motors provide torque superior to any internal combustion vehicle. New transit projects funded by the stimulus such as high speed electric rail and PRT networks going up around the country will reduce traffic congestion and provide low cost transportation within and between major cities.

The focus on energy efficiency will enable us to power more appliances off of the same amount of energy, which opens up the market for useful new products as well as easing the load on the grid. More and more home owners will buy and assemble kits for personal solar and wind power generation, as generating electricity at the point of consumption is far less lossy than transmitting it across miles of power lines. The average power bill (and water bill as well, with the advent of affordable home rain capture/filtration systems) will plummet allowing the average citizen to enjoy a more luxurious standard of living.

Most crucial of all, freedom from our oil addiction means an end to our messy entanglement in oil-rich middle eastern nations, politically, economically and one day militarily.
 
2009-04-15 03:16:01 AM
Party Boy: Well, there seems to be an absence of a certain ornithological piece. A headline regarding mass awareness of a certain avian variety.

i191.photobucket.com

What are you talking about?
 
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