Mnemia: imfallen_angel: And if you also read the other parts... I mention how defensive people with alcohol problems are.

They ALWAYS say that they have it under control.

It's funny that way.

Here it is again. Don't assume that everyone can't control their drinking just because you can't. Among people who control their drinking, saying that they are not alcoholics is TRUE, not a defensive excuse.

tweekster: I just broke up with a recovering alcoholic about a month back and she thought the downfall of our 3 week "relationship" was me recognizing something inside myself (ie that I am an alcoholic and dating her made me confront that) and that was why it didn't work out

I'm guessing it's a form of psychological projection used to rationalize their own behavior and shift some of the "blame" from themselves. Not that I think they really deserve "blame" (since I think it's at least in part a genetic thing whether or not someone has an addictive personality type). But admitting that other people can drink without becoming alcoholics makes them feel worse about themselves and their inability to do so. It's an emotional defense mechanism.

While I know that you tried to save your arse from this post with the apology, I still want to rub it in. (with a reason behind it)

Stings to have your argument completely blow up on you, doesn't it? Talking out of your arse doesn't make you smart, and thinking that you know it all makes you a fool.

notauniquesnowflake: imfallen_angel:

Your "pride" in being an alcoholic speaks volume, and you thinking that you're better than others for it makes you an ass, nothing else, nothing special, just an ass.

Yeah....I never once said my drinking makes me better than other people. I simply asked for people to respect me and quit trying to make me stop when it's not affecting anyone else. Indeed, it's not even adversely affecting my own life.

Perhaps you thought me pointing out your grammatical errors equates me thinking I'm better than everyone else. No sir, not everyone else. However, I certainly am better at utilizing the English language than you.

Guys, guys, guys.
I hate to see this bickering.
I drink because you guys fight you know.

imfallen_angel: But it's a given that anyone that has to be defensive about their drinking usually are for a reason. It's not an assumption, it plain logic.

Sure it's an assumption. You know nothing about me or anyone else on the Internet's drinking except for what we tell you. Any conclusion you draw from that is an assumption. Now I would say that it's different if you're being defensive because your friends, family and other people who actually know you are worried about your behavior.

imfallen_angel: While I know that you tried to save your arse from this post with the apology, I still want to rub it in. (with a reason behind it)

Stings to have your argument completely blow up on you, doesn't it? Talking out of your arse doesn't make you smart, and thinking that you know it all makes you a fool.

It didn't "blow up in my face", because I had no reason to think otherwise until you made that statement. I really don't care what you think of me. You're a bit of a judgemental asshole, though, I would say.

Having been heavily involved with the young lawyer group in town when I was practicing, I have to say, nearly everyone held it together, no matter how much we drank in the evenings. Not a single person ever got fired or even reprimanded for their behavior (and we were fairly debauched), and I can only think of one person who even got a reputation about her drinking (and it really was more of the showing off her goodies while drunk than the drinking itself).

Yeah, productivity was down the third Thursday of every month (the morning after the young lawyers' meeting), but law is very much a matter of "do you get your shiat done (and done well) or not," so you work harder on... well, I was going to say Friday, but that won't work either since offices are ghost towns after 3 pm on Friday.

notauniquesnowflake: Indeed, it's not even adversely affecting my own life.

I used to think the same thing. Heck, I was even a moderately successful attorney while completely farked up (like TFA is all about).

To this day, I am amazed that I didn't even know what I was missing. Life wasn't so bad -- but I didn't know it could be so much better. I also didn't realize that I had hurt others until long after I stopped hurting them. It's a matter of perspective.

Come and see us when you're ready. And if you never feel ready, that's OK.

notauniquesnowflake: Yeah....I never once said my drinking makes me better than other people. I simply asked for people to respect me and quit trying to make me stop when it's not affecting anyone else. Indeed, it's not even adversely affecting my own life.

Perhaps you thought me pointing out your grammatical errors equates me thinking I'm better than everyone else. No sir, not everyone else. However, I certainly am better at utilizing the English language than you.

What if it does affect others and you fail to see it?

And what the hell are you so hard pressed about a typo like this? dear God kid... let it go. Trust me, your skills are far below what you'd like to believe about me, as you don't even know me... but go ahead, if it makes you feel better about yourself... but frankly, it's getting stupid at this point. I'm posting between things I've working on, so I'm not going to dedicate my full attention to details you know... shessss..

pootsie: notauniquesnowflake: Indeed, it's not even adversely affecting my own life.

I used to think the same thing. Heck, I was even a moderately successful attorney while completely farked up (like TFA is all about).

To this day, I am amazed that I didn't even know what I was missing. Life wasn't so bad -- but I didn't know it could be so much better. I also didn't realize that I had hurt others until long after I stopped hurting them. It's a matter of perspective.

Come and see us when you're ready. And if you never feel ready, that's OK.

Well, at least you're being respectful so *hats off,* *golf clap,* and all that.

/Maybe when I'm done dealing with the regular and repressed memories of my abusive childhood I'll get around to dealing with the drinking. In the meantime, it's what's keeping me sane though. It's kind of like my cuddly Linus blanket, and I get very upset when people try to take it away.

pootsie: The tricky part is that addiction is a condition that includes denial. Both an addict and a non-addict will deny having a problem. The ones who put more effort into the denial get our sensors up, because we used to put a lot of effort into it also.

But there may be truth to what you both say.

Consider also this; an addict or alcoholic is better off sheilded completely from using. An absolutist attitude, annoying as it may be, helps many of us steer clear. It may be annoying, but we're better off annoying you than killing you in a drunk-driving incident ;- )

And I totally agree with most of this. If someone can't control themselves, by all means, they should stay away from any sort of addictive substance entirely. The thing is, there is a certain percentage of people that are just genetically predisposed to addictive behavior. The same rules that apply to "normal" people don't apply to them. That's why I think blanket guidelines are foolish.

I also maybe don't agree with the absolutism part. Haven't some studies shown that absolutist approaches actually don't work as well as approaches that use scientifically-based treatment?

imfallen_angel: notauniquesnowflake: Yeah....I never once said my drinking makes me better than other people. I simply asked for people to respect me and quit trying to make me stop when it's not affecting anyone else. Indeed, it's not even adversely affecting my own life.

Perhaps you thought me pointing out your grammatical errors equates me thinking I'm better than everyone else. No sir, not everyone else. However, I certainly am better at utilizing the English language than you.

What if it does affect others and you fail to see it?

And what the hell are you so hard pressed about a typo like this? dear God kid... let it go. Trust me, your skills are far below what you'd like to believe about me, as you don't even know me... but go ahead, if it makes you feel better about yourself... but frankly, it's getting stupid at this point. I'm posting between things I've working on, so I'm not going to dedicate my full attention to details you know... shessss..

Awww, the old divorced guy has his knickers in a twist.

Mnemia: imfallen_angel: But it's a given that anyone that has to be defensive about their drinking usually are for a reason. It's not an assumption, it plain logic.

Sure it's an assumption. You know nothing about me or anyone else on the Internet's drinking except for what we tell you. Any conclusion you draw from that is an assumption. Now I would say that it's different if you're being defensive because your friends, family and other people who actually know you are worried about your behavior.

Mnemia: imfallen_angel: While I know that you tried to save your arse from this post with the apology, I still want to rub it in. (with a reason behind it)

Stings to have your argument completely blow up on you, doesn't it? Talking out of your arse doesn't make you smart, and thinking that you know it all makes you a fool.

It didn't "blow up in my face", because I had no reason to think otherwise until you made that statement. I really don't care what you think of me. You're a bit of a judgemental asshole, though, I would say.

Teehee... here we go again..

So it's okay for YOU to make assumptions, but not someone else?

It blowed up in your face, get over it.

And learn to read... I didn't assume anything, I mentioned that some replies were very defensive, which is a common trait among people with dependencies, and I left it at that.

But see how that goes.

Anyways, as your and other's posts are getting repetitive and childish, I'm not going to bother replying unless you actually want to have a conversation about this subject, and NOT this stupid pissing contest.

imfallen_angel: And learn to read... I didn't assume anything, I mentioned that some replies were very defensive, which is a common trait among people with dependencies, and I left it at that.

What you did was act like a smug asshole with your implications.

imfallen_angel:
Anyways, as your and other's posts are getting repetitive and childish, I'm not going to bother replying unless you actually want to have a conversation about this subject, and NOT this stupid pissing contest.

You might want to find discussion threads that aren't on Fark if that's your goal.

/seriously

Mnemia

That seems to be a pretty good insight. Most of my friends from college, etc who got into what I would consider "problem drinking" did that, drinking themselves to the point where they were enjoying that sedative effect. Myself, I hate feeling like shiat/getting a hangover, so I always stopped before then, even when I was drinking much more in college.

Good post.

Thanks.

I've spent a long time talking to alcoholics (including myself) who spent (read:wasted) years experimenting with control in the hopes that they could drink like "a normal person", i.e., a non-alcoholic, without realizing that drinking like a "normal person" would have no appeal whatsoever.

It's important to distinguish between frat-boy machismo drinking, which can be a stage, and true alcoholic drinking. I think another defining characteristic is that by the time you're in your late 20s-early 30s, drinking like that isn't cute anymore.

notauniquesnowflake: Awww, the old divorced guy has his knickers in a twist.

That's quite the assumption... naw.. I'm more going "duh".

And I'm not divorced btw.... just another assumption on your side.


Anyways, anything intelligent that you'd actually like to talk about?

notauniquesnowflake: Maybe when I'm done dealing with the regular and repressed memories of my abusive childhood I'll get around to dealing with the drinking. In the meantime, it's what's keeping me sane though. It's kind of like my cuddly Linus blanket, and I get very upset when people try to take it away.

It worked the other way around for me. Using helped me cope with all that stuff, but not resolve it. Getting clean helped me resolve it.

And yes, the part where my blankie got ripped away really sucked, because I had not resolved my issues and my only coping mechanism was gone.

You probably have no idea that I mean this, but I think I know exactly how you feel.

I'll put EIP if you wann talk more.

Mnemia: What you did was act like a smug asshole with your implications.

Nope... that's only the way that you want to see it.

Kinda sucks doesn't it.

imfallen_angel: notauniquesnowflake: Awww, the old divorced guy has his knickers in a twist.

That's quite the assumption... naw.. I'm more going "duh".

And I'm not divorced btw.... just another assumption on your side.


Anyways, anything intelligent that you'd actually like to talk about?

Sure, but that'd require me finding someone intelligent to engage in conversation with.

/ba-dum-bum-ching!
//Old people like you are the reason "ignore" was invented.

Mnemia: Haven't some studies shown that absolutist approaches actually don't work as well as approaches that use scientifically-based treatment?

All I know is what works in my life. "Drugs are bad, m'kay" is a good rule for me and my ilk.

notauniquesnowflake: imfallen_angel:
Anyways, as your and other's posts are getting repetitive and childish, I'm not going to bother replying unless you actually want to have a conversation about this subject, and NOT this stupid pissing contest.

You might want to find discussion threads that aren't on Fark if that's your goal.

/seriously

Nah... I do sometimes manage to get someone with half a brain that actually want to "talk"...

pootsie: notauniquesnowflake: Maybe when I'm done dealing with the regular and repressed memories of my abusive childhood I'll get around to dealing with the drinking. In the meantime, it's what's keeping me sane though. It's kind of like my cuddly Linus blanket, and I get very upset when people try to take it away.

It worked the other way around for me. Using helped me cope with all that stuff, but not resolve it. Getting clean helped me resolve it.

And yes, the part where my blankie got ripped away really sucked, because I had not resolved my issues and my only coping mechanism was gone.

You probably have no idea that I mean this, but I think I know exactly how you feel.

I'll put EIP if you wann talk more.

Meh, feel free to email me if you want. My email's already in my profile. Then we can stop annoying all the fighting drunk/sober people.

ATTENTION FARKERS AND FARKETTES

LIKING A DRINK OR TWO OR EVEN MORE AFTER WORK DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN ALCOHOLIC

GETTING shiatFACED AT PARTIES DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN ALCOHOLIC

WHEN YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF CONTROLLING YOUR DRINKING AND IT INTERFERES WITH YOUR PERSONAL LIFE THEN AND ONLY THEN ARE YOU AN ALCOHOLIC

THAT IS ALL

**END COMMUNICATION**

notauniquesnowflake: Sure, but that'd require me finding someone intelligent to engage in conversation with.

/ba-dum-bum-ching!
//Old people like you are the reason "ignore" was invented.

awww... you getting your feelings hurt now?

No wonder you drink... it probably helps you block out everyone that tells you that you're an arse.

Mykeru: I've spent a long time talking to alcoholics (including myself) who spent (read:wasted) years experimenting with control in the hopes that they could drink like "a normal person", i.e., a non-alcoholic, without realizing that drinking like a "normal person" would have no appeal whatsoever.

...well, I think it does have appeal beyond just getting drunk...that's why lots of people do it. It's just a different kind of appeal. For example, a lot of people like to try different wines or beers to experience all the different kinds of flavors that are out there. Many of them never drink to the point of getting drunk or even more than a little buzzed.

But if you mean it would have no appeal to an alcoholic, that might be true if they were only interested in the "drunk" feeling.

notauniquesnowflake: imfallen_angel: notauniquesnowflake:

Yeah, you're really intelligent. *rolls eyes*

Anyway, whether or not I'd want a legally drunk person performing those various duties would depend on whether or not they're an alcoholic. Alcoholics generally can do pretty much anything drunk they do sober, and often do it better. I, for one, interact with the general public more congenially if I'm a bit tipsy than if I'm sober. Similarly, a stiff drink could calm a doctor's nerves before surgery.

/Also, if a doctor normally drinks and then isn't drinking, he'd get that delirium tremens thing going, and I really don't want shaky hands all up in my insides.

Let's see; you flame me over a quick and dirty typo in my post that I did very quickly... yeah, good way to show how better you are....


And that you post like this over alcoholics kinda indicates the usual thing.

I'd have to guess that you being so defensive about it usually indicates that you're having a little bit of trouble with the bottle and trying to justify it?


You type the same thing twice, and there is no way that "worst" is a typo for "worse." The letters aren't even close to each other or typed with the same finger.

Further, I'm not denying anything. I think it's pretty obvious from my posts in any thread about alcohol that I freely admit to being an alcoholic. I simply am a functioning one and don't see anything wrong with it. I know, I know, you'll ask my definition of "functioning."

* I have a full-time job.
* I am a straight-A graduate student part-time.
* I have been fully supporting myself for 5 years and am only 22.
* I maintain several friendships and a significant relationship.
* The only people who know how much I drink are my man and my close friends (and you anonymous Farkers).

Defensive about it due to shame/refusal to admit it? No.

Defensive about it because society is out to get functioning alcoholics? Yes.

You let the fatties have their food, the smokers have their smokes, etc.... Let us alcoholics have our alcohol and leave us alone until we start farking up other people's lives, mk?

/It's my liver.

When smokers smoke before driving or fatties eat before driving they don't end up killing entire families in the other lane.

THAT'S why society is after functioning alcoholics, drunks can and do kill people daily. Smokers, arguably with 2nd hand smoke, but fatties don't hurt anyone but themselves and their loved ones.

ATTENTION DANWISEMAN

ALL CAPS IS ANNOYING AND MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A JERK.

pootsie: Mnemia: Haven't some studies shown that absolutist approaches actually don't work as well as approaches that use scientifically-based treatment?

All I know is what works in my life. "Drugs are bad, m'kay" is a good rule for me and my ilk.

Sounds good... kinda what I do too.

Congrats to you and all others that mentioned that they've managed to work on dealing with their alcoholism.

I think that it's easy to see and know that until someone have actually lived it, they just don't "get it".

I've just see the defensiveness with so many people, and so far, it's been sad to see so many do this and ended up having to face it at some point.

And the worst part, is they never,(not once) cared about the pain they caused others until it really it's a point (which varies greatly from one person to another).

As far as AA goes, I have to say that it's not AA (as an organization) itself that can be a problem, but the people that "take over", so if one group doesn't work for you, go to another.

imfallen_angel: And the worst part, is they never,(not once) cared about the pain they caused others until it really a it's hits a point (which varies greatly from one person to another).

I better correct myself before someone else gets all upset about it.

_{/brain and fingers aren't connected right today}

imfallen_angel: As far as AA goes, I have to say that it's not AA (as an organization) itself that can be a problem, but the people that "take over", so if one group doesn't work for you, go to another.

You seem to have a lot of personal experience with AA.

All I know for sure about alcoholism or drug addiction is that EVERY time I got out of a meeting all I wanted to do was get high...

...and for those who've said that the meetings are cult-ish I'd have to say that you are almost right. They aren't cultish, they're clickish and elitist. In fact, I found them outright overbearing and repressive. I'd never say that they don't help people, they've helped millions recover their dignity, control, and lives through their steps and meetings. I'm just saying that I have never found a group (in 5 years) that I would go to if the courts weren't making me.

/clean for 8 years.
//never going back.

OneFretAway:

Denial ain't just a psychological condition characterized by an overwhelming need to shield one's self from potentially devastating self knowledge. It's also a river in Egypt.

It's also a swanky restaurant in Sex and the City where Mr. Big shows up to meet Carrie's friends for dinner. This one act apparently excuses all the other douchebaggery he puts her through. I find this funny and ironic.

OneFretAway: This is why it's been fun farking with you Mnemia. But seriously, I have no emotional investment in your drinking or lack thereof. I'm happy for you that you don't have alcoholism, cancer, lupis, a toothache, diabetes, or any number of other maladies.

Denial ain't just a psychological condition characterized by an overwhelming need to shield one's self from potentially devastating self knowledge. It's also a river in Egypt.

See, I'm cool with you if you just admit to farking around. That's what Fark is all about, and it's what I'm doing right now. I'm only pissed off by the people who come in and throw their judgmental bullshiat on other people for no real reason (whether it's on this topic or any other).

Mnemia: But if you mean it would have no appeal to an alcoholic, that might be true if they were only interested in the "drunk" feeling.

That actually works hand in hand.

The physical dependency and the "haze" are both part of the addiction.

Remove the "haze", which some research have shown some progressive results with some medication that lets you drink without the alcohol giving the person a buzz, and the people in the test group did much better at stopping drinking. The article about this was a while back (6 month to a year I believe). It's still in testing/development as far as I know.

imfallen_angel: As far as AA goes, I have to say that it's not AA (as an organization) itself that can be a problem, but the people that "take over", so if one group doesn't work for you, go to another.

I have heard a few stories about the individual groups in my area. One allows co-ed sponsors which is apparently a big no no in the program, the others do not...or atleast that was the impression that I got. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong on that.

Mnemia: You seem to have a lot of personal experience with AA.

Yes I do... I went to many meetings as a support person, and meet many great people.

Learned a LOT about addictions and the impacts it does to people's lives.

In law school right now. Never met so many alcoholics in my life.

tweekster: imfallen_angel: As far as AA goes, I have to say that it's not AA (as an organization) itself that can be a problem, but the people that "take over", so if one group doesn't work for you, go to another.

I have heard a few stories about the individual groups in my area. One allows co-ed sponsors which is apparently a big no no in the program, the others do not...or atleast that was the impression that I got. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong on that.

Well, you have to take this as fact... any group that see each other for a long period of time do end up with a dependency with the familiar.

I've seen some groups turn into a real soap opera.

I've seen some people that go to these meetings in the hopes to meet someone. (as a meat market).

I've seen....well.. a lot let's just say.

Mnemia

I also maybe don't agree with the absolutism part. Haven't some studies shown that absolutist approaches actually don't work as well as approaches that use scientifically-based treatment?

That's one of my objections to AA and 12-stepping (for alcoholism, drugs, debt, gambling, being messy, etc) as a one-size-fits-all approach that simply doesn't work for anyone, really. Which is a shame because over 90% of clinical treatment programs are Step-based. It's like going to the hospital to have your appendix out and instead they give you Christian Scientists to pray over it.

I really don't buy into the "disease model". No one has ever found the "alcoholic gene". I think it's clear that alcoholism is a combination of factors involving physiological reaction to alcohol coupled with learned behavior and cultural factors.

Still, just because there's no "alkie gene" doesn't negate physiological factors. Otherwise, what's the significance of the low rate of alcoholism among Mediterraneans (where there's been thousands of years to weed the problem drinkers out of the gene pool) and the incredible rate of alcoholism among Native Americans who have only been exposed to alcohol for a couple hundred years or so?

Alcoholics Anonymous sees the problem as a "spiritual disease".

Huh? What? The problem with AA is often not so much that they are wrong, it's more like their "program" is a non-sequitur.

As far as "absolutist approachs", Alcoholic's Anonymous and 12-Stepping is not only ubiquitous, but thoroughly absolutist.

Actual studies done demonstrate that AA has a worse success rate than the rate of spontaneous remission and when 12-Steppers relapse they engage in 5 times as much binge drinking as someone with no "treatment" and 9 times as much as someone given some form of behavioral therapy. The reason for this, I think, is that AA is a self-perpetuating program of religious conversion that has little do do with drinking, or anything else, that promotes powerlessness, giving over control, group-think, the swallowing of nonsense and contradiction and living in a constant state of mourning over one's inability to drink normally.

There are alternatives. I go to AA now and then, but I also do SOS (Secular Organization for Sobriety) and SMART recovery, both of which are behaviorally-based. Also, I try not to obsess about poor me being unable to be a social drinker. As I said, AA is basically a wake for people to cry over their inability to drink. Although they do act as a support network, you have to keep in mind that anyone who had stuck out AA for months and years is going to support you by parroting AA nonsense. You know exactly the sort of bumper-sticker advice they'll give.

That said, if AA works for someone, good. Stick with it for as long as it does good. I would just hate for them to buy into AA nonsense that Stepping is the "only way" and the choice is AA or jails, institutions or death. For most people, though, I think they have to tailor their own "recovery" to their needs because, despite the AA indifference to why people drink, people have as many reasons for drinking as there are brands of booze.

imfallen_angel: That actually works hand in hand.

The physical dependency and the "haze" are both part of the addiction.

Remove the "haze", which some research have shown some progressive results with some medication that lets you drink without the alcohol giving the person a buzz, and the people in the test group did much better at stopping drinking. The article about this was a while back (6 month to a year I believe). It's still in testing/development as far as I know.

Yes, this is the sort of thing that I think actually might work quite well. Isn't that kind of similar to the principle used by Chantix for smoking? (Although I'm aware that there are now some questions about nasty side-effects with Chantix). Break the psychological-physical feedback loop and it's probably much easier to break the addiction.

/See how much nicer it is when we're civil?

Dirtybird971: I'd never say that they don't help people, they've helped millions recover their dignity, control, and lives through their steps and meetings.

I'm pretty sure that AA doesn't have a higher success rate than people outside of AA. It's kind of a dark secret.

Mnemia:

Yes, this is the sort of thing that I think actually might work quite well. Isn't that kind of similar to the principle used by Chantix for smoking? (Although I'm aware that there are now some questions about nasty side-effects with Chantix). Break the psychological-physical feedback loop and it's probably much easier to break the addiction.


But then how will I get my psychological fix? Oh, I know, psychopathic drugs that society approves of.

/Don't take it the wrong way, Mnemia. I like you.

imfallen_angel: Yes I do... I went to many meetings as a support person, and meet many great people.

Learned a LOT about addictions and the impacts it does to people's lives.

That would explain a lot about your general attitudes as displayed in that thread. I understand where you're coming from a lot more knowing this fact about you. Your views have probably been shaped by a lot of things you've seen, kind of like how some cops end up adopting a jaded view of humanity because they are regularly exposed to the worst dregs of society.

Whatever.

Is it 5:00 yet? I'm thirsty.

Mykeru: Still, just because there's no "alkie gene" doesn't negate physiological factors.

I think that like a lot of things, it's probably not caused by a single gene and it's probably a combination of environmental and social factors along with genetic predisposition. Research has shown that alcoholism and drug addiction run in families, and while I'm sure some of that is a social/learned behavior thing, I have to imagine at least some genetic factors are involved with that.

notauniquesnowflake: But then how will I get my psychological fix? Oh, I know, psychopathic drugs that society approves of.

//Sips third cup of coffee of the day

Mnemia

But if you mean it would have no appeal to an alcoholic, that might be true if they were only interested in the "drunk" feeling.

That's exactly what I meant: Drinking "normally" has no appeal for the alcoholic. Alcoholics say we want to drink like a "normal" person, but if we could, we'd be disappointed. I mean, think about it: All an alcoholic has to do to drink like a "normal person" is stop after a couple drinks. That's not what the alcoholic is shooting for: The goal is the level of inebriation, sedation, loss of inhibition or what have you, that lies beyond a couple drinks.

Or, to put it another way: Alcoholics don't drink alcohol for the taste, if you know what I mean.

Mykeru: That said, if AA works for someone, good. Stick with it for as long as it does good. I would just hate for them to buy into AA nonsense that Stepping is the "only way" and the choice is AA or jails, institutions or death. For most people, though, I think they have to tailor their own "recovery" to their needs because, despite the AA indifference to why people drink, people have as many reasons for drinking as there are brands of booze.

I have to agree and disagree on some of the things that you said in this one.

The problem is not the 12 step program.

1) it's how people decide to view it.

Just like the Bible, it's meant as a guide, but as the Bible, some decide it's interpretation means one thing, and only what THEY believe. Which is why I mention that you should never judge AA from a single meeting. The participants will make a world of difference from one meeting to the next.

2) some (many) see AA as an absolution. They go, fell all happy about it, then go out drinking again right after the meeting, thinking that it's a free pass, which they'll just say about how sorry they are (again) at the next meeting.

THAT would be the majority of those that fail. It's not AA's fault.

Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox Quote 2009-04-14 02:54:11 PM
Dirtybird971: I'd never say that they don't help people, they've helped millions recover their dignity, control, and lives through their steps and meetings.

I'm pretty sure that AA doesn't have a higher success rate than people outside of AA. It's kind of a dark secret.

I've heard that said before, but I don't know that I'd agree. It's considerably harder quitting a substance on your own than in a room of people that have been there. I think the average addict would get more beneficial information when going to meetings than just sitting at home twitching. Even if you can't swallow the whole "God thing", the steps are excellent at realizing things you'd never discover by yourself or with someone who has never been there before.
That being said, when it's time to stop and you know it, it won't matter where you are or with whom you are drinking coffee.