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(Telegraph)   Womens shelters ordered to help male victims of domestic violence or have their funding cut off   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 381
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6791 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Apr 2009 at 9:07 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-04-05 01:56:36 PM
ha ha sweeeeet
 
2009-04-05 01:58:09 PM
Aunt Crabby: There should be services for both genders, but they should meet the needs of real people, not hypothetical standards of "gender blind" societies. The services do not have to be mixed gender at all times, nor do think we should assume men and women needs are exactly the same at all times. None the less, since men are being abused by partners of both genders, there is a need it should be addressed. While I would be skeptical of a study claiming men and women are physically abused by their spouses at exactly equal rates, women can also be abusive, and threatened women may have a tendency to fight dirty (I am 5'2" with no upper arm strength--if I am every forced to fight, I will fight dirty). Gay men who are abused also need services (as do abused lesbians). I have heard that finding a shelter that takes in abused women with teenage sons is very hard. I see nothing wrong with providing gender segregated sleeping or "safe rooms" within a shelter and hopefully some small family spaces for those with children of all ages. That isn't the same as completely denying one gender services.

There was a time when I trusted women more than men. I think that is just because I am straight an never got romantically involved with women. I hope I have grown to see people and not stereotypes, but I still feel that if it is a physical altercation most men are a bigger threat, whereas if it is office politics or a smear campaign, women scare me much more than most men. To those who are bitter (male and female) I understand, I really do. However our personal issues (mine and yours) have nothing t do with what is the correct policy to help the most people in a fair way.

Building and servicing such spaces for both genders may be an additional burden, but it is worth the effort. Offering services to anyone who is abused says that we know this problem runs deeper than historical sexism, not that we don't think sexism ever plays a role in abuse. That being said, having a safe place is important to any abuse survivor. Sometimes men and women may have different needs, and the needs of individuals may vary from others of their gender. Domestic violence programs should try to meet peoples needs on an equal basis, and not to treat everyone "the same".


Well said.
 
2009-04-05 02:03:46 PM
This OBBN guy seems reasonable, and we should listen to him.
 
2009-04-05 02:07:12 PM
CrispFlows: OBBN: ashmael: his sounds reasonable except domestic violence has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with relationship.

See my above posts, domestic violence is increasingly becoming less about domestic violence and more about positioning yourself for the upcoming divorce. Don't believe me, just do a google search and read horror story after horror story. Funny thing about the stories too, they all sound exactly alike. Almost as if some organization was advising women on how to go about doing this.

Which keywords would you recommend?

/ or google phrase?


Quite honestly I can't remember the google phrase that I searched under, it has been a few years and I have tried to purge my mind of the whole ordeal.
However for a good overview go to www.dadsdivorce.com and take a look at their forums, especially the going thru a divorce one. The post are strikingly similar as to the way the domestic violence charges came about.
Also, as mentioned before, my attorney told me that he ADVISES his women clients to make DV accusations, real or not and that it is common for most attorneys he knows to do that.
Also, my divorce was in Georgia and the local womens shelter that "advised" my ex is being sued by a number of men for the tactics they are telling women to use.
It is really unbelievable and I am not un-caring about the plight of abused women. There is no excuse for it, but I have been on the receiving end of the false accusation and I personally know how screwed up your life becomes once that is on your record.
The charges of course were dropped b/c my ex had no proof and I knew that she would never lie under oath in a court room. BUT to this day (almost 5 years later) I still have this arrest come up in background checks for jobs (I have been denied a job for a position that I had over 10 years experience in b/c of this showing up on my background check), I am not allowed to chapparone my childrens school events b/c they did a background check and this came up. I also have to go thru hoops to purchase a firearm b/c of this accusation.
Listen, if I did it then I would have no problem taking my punishment. However I didn't do a damn thing. This happened b/c of the reasons listed above. There is no penalty for her making the false accusation. It is frustrating and downright scary.
If you really would like some links to some of this stuff, let me know and I will dig them up for you. I have them saved on my desktop computer and can forward them to you. Right now I am sitting at my pool wathcing my kids swim, so I can't leave for the moment.
Also, please understand that I am not anti-women. I just don't want to see this happen to anyone else. No one deserves to go thru what I have gone thru.
 
2009-04-05 02:12:56 PM
tin_man: This OBBN guy seems reasonable, and we should listen to him.

I hope that you aren't being sarcastic. I am just trying to relay a real danger for married men. I hope that it never happens to you or anyone you know, but if it does remember that I warned you.
If you think I am bitter you are correct. I was thrown out of my home, I was barred from seeing my children and the attorney fees were more than I make in a year.
 
2009-04-05 02:25:22 PM
OBBN: tin_man: This OBBN guy seems reasonable, and we should listen to him.

I hope that you aren't being sarcastic. I am just trying to relay a real danger for married men. I hope that it never happens to you or anyone you know, but if it does remember that I warned you.
If you think I am bitter you are correct. I was thrown out of my home, I was barred from seeing my children and the attorney fees were more than I make in a year.


I've been through it, and I know what can happen. But you trying to paint all women as predators in waiting is no better than some trying to paint all men the same. Women didn't fark you over; one woman did. Most women aren't like that, any more than most men want to beat and possess women. Sorry you had a bad time, and you aren't alone in that, but you can't blame a whole class of people based on the actions of one.

It gets you nowhere.
 
2009-04-05 02:29:04 PM
OBBN: ashmael: his sounds reasonable except domestic violence has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with relationship.

See my above posts, domestic violence is increasingly becoming less about domestic violence and more about positioning yourself for the upcoming divorce. Don't believe me, just do a google search and read horror story after horror story. Funny thing about the stories too, they all sound exactly alike. Almost as if some organization was advising women on how to go about doing this.


So, did you report your lawyer when he admitted to you that he actively encouraged perjury when he was advising these women to lie? I'm calling total BS on that part of your story unless you took actions to follow up on this. I've been on enough of these threads and seen enough actual lawyers post here calling BS on claims like that to be fooled. That, and your screed while might be partially true sounds much like the propaganda stock stories and language you see on the sites that you mentioned in your post.
 
2009-04-05 02:35:35 PM
The Nazis at NOW will not be happy by this.
 
2009-04-05 02:38:47 PM
tin_man: OBBN: tin_man: This OBBN guy seems reasonable, and we should listen to him.

I hope that you aren't being sarcastic. I am just trying to relay a real danger for married men. I hope that it never happens to you or anyone you know, but if it does remember that I warned you.
If you think I am bitter you are correct. I was thrown out of my home, I was barred from seeing my children and the attorney fees were more than I make in a year.

I've been through it, and I know what can happen. But you trying to paint all women as predators in waiting is no better than some trying to paint all men the same. Women didn't fark you over; one woman did. Most women aren't like that, any more than most men want to beat and possess women. Sorry you had a bad time, and you aren't alone in that, but you can't blame a whole class of people based on the actions of one.

It gets you nowhere.


Actually I am not trying to paint all women as predators. But if you happen to be with one who decides to go the route my ex did (and there are PLENTY who have, I am not a rare case) you will be screwed. The point that I am making is that as a man you are guilty until proven innocent and you can very easily have your life and reputation destroyed without doing anything to cause it. Every man should be aware of the possibility. I have fire extinguishers in my home, but that doesn't mean I want a fire. The point is if you think that a divorce is imminent, find out what can be done to you and do everything you can to protect yourself. I saw it coming, though I didn't think the divorce would happen. So, instead of doing some research and finding out what might happen I just sat there. So now I pay the price for not being informed.
All women aren't bad, just like all cops aren't bad, etc.... But be prepared, know what can happen so you don't get caught with your pants down.
 
2009-04-05 02:43:13 PM
gulogulo: OBBN: ashmael: his sounds reasonable except domestic violence has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with relationship.

See my above posts, domestic violence is increasingly becoming less about domestic violence and more about positioning yourself for the upcoming divorce. Don't believe me, just do a google search and read horror story after horror story. Funny thing about the stories too, they all sound exactly alike. Almost as if some organization was advising women on how to go about doing this.

So, did you report your lawyer when he admitted to you that he actively encouraged perjury when he was advising these women to lie? I'm calling total BS on that part of your story unless you took actions to follow up on this. I've been on enough of these threads and seen enough actual lawyers post here calling BS on claims like that to be fooled. That, and your screed while might be partially true sounds much like the propaganda stock stories and language you see on the sites that you mentioned in your post.


No I didn't report my attorney. To be honest I was really in a state of shock at that time in my life. Between the emotional roller coaster and the pain not much was clear then. Looking back there are a lot of things I would have done different. Another attorney, yes .. report him .. maybe I should have, but I really didn't think about it at the time. I actually thought that he was on my side ... but like most attorneys he was on the side of making money. Divorce is big business in this country. The attorneys, the women's groups, the courts. No one wants to save marriages in this country, there is too much money to be made in divorces.
 
2009-04-05 02:45:36 PM
OBBN: All women aren't bad, just like all cops aren't bad, etc.... But be prepared, know what can happen so you don't get caught with your pants down.

Fair enough.
 
2009-04-05 02:46:39 PM
Article doesn't state how many immediately closed upon hearing they would have to help a man.
 
2009-04-05 02:49:13 PM
ashmael: This sounds reasonable except domestic violence has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with relationship. You then segregate to protect them based on gender and not relationship.

I do agree with you, and in fact that brings up an interesting point of what to do in such a system with gay/lesbian victims.

But the "high needs" scenario I was speaking of would be an individual who experienced such a traumatic event that they are being treated for post traumatic stress disorder arising from it. While in such a case that has nothing to do with gender, PTSD basically means that the tiniest amount of stress is physiologically responded to at the crisis level anxiety of the initial event itself... hence offering a controlled environment not because the opposite gender is bad, but to provide a short term stress-limited environment so that other therapy can take place without the victim being in a constant state of extreme anxiety... with the ultimate goal of such a setup being a short term setup to help "set the bedrock" for their recovery, so to speak.

Let's take it from a straight male's perspective with PTSD due to an extreme event: every time he sees a woman within the shelter: he not only feels anxious because it brings to mind the event, but also because of feelings of shame for being in such a circumstance in the first place, etc. Due to the PTSD, that minor anxiety is exploded in magnitude and experienced at a level on par with the night his ex tried to kill him.

The same goes for women... after an extreme event cause PTSD, there will be some anxiety around men: women in such situations often report anxiety due to the feeling of powerlessness in the initial event, due to the man being physically stronger. In most cases, this is something to be worked on, and becoming familiar with the opposite sex as being non violent is important. But for an individual with PSTD immediately after the traumatic event, that minor anxiety is experienced at the same level as the fear she was experiencing the night she was savagely beaten by her ex.

Again, these are individual cases, and all I'm saying is that a blanket law misses the individual. One or two very small shelters in each region that can offer the flexibility of same sex lodging, or even isolated lodging, with the rest of the shelter program integrated to varying degrees, would meet more needs than a blanket "everyone must be treated by everyone."
 
2009-04-05 02:49:31 PM
gulogulo: So, did you report your lawyer when he admitted to you that he actively encouraged perjury when he was advising these women to lie? I'm calling total BS on that part of your story unless you took actions to follow up on this.

I was going to argue this point with you, but then I read that:

I've been on enough of these threads and seen enough actual lawyers post here calling BS on claims like that to be fooled.

Thank God I didn't. You have posts on Fark to call on as evidence that is doesn't happen. How could I possibly argue against that?
 
2009-04-05 02:49:44 PM
dead_dangler: This seems like a great way to meet women with low self-esteem and/or daddy issues.

Genius, beat me to it.
 
2009-04-05 03:01:01 PM
Schmea: I do agree with you, and in fact that brings up an interesting point of what to do in such a system with gay/lesbian victims.

But the "high needs" scenario I was speaking of would be an individual who experienced such a traumatic event that they are being treated for post traumatic stress disorder arising from it. While in such a case that has nothing to do with gender, PTSD basically means that the tiniest amount of stress is physiologically responded to at the crisis level anxiety of the initial event itself... hence offering a controlled environment not because the opposite gender is bad, but to provide a short term stress-limited environment so that other therapy can take place without the victim being in a constant state of extreme anxiety... with the ultimate goal of such a setup being a short term setup to help "set the bedrock" for their recovery, so to speak.

Let's take it from a straight male's perspective with PTSD due to an extreme event: every time he sees a woman within the shelter: he not only feels anxious because it brings to mind the event, but also because of feelings of shame for being in such a circumstance in the first place, etc. Due to the PTSD, that minor anxiety is exploded in magnitude and experienced at a level on par with the night his ex tried to kill him.

The same goes for women... after an extreme event cause PTSD, there will be some anxiety around men: women in such situations often report anxiety due to the feeling of powerlessness in the initial event, due to the man being physically stronger. In most cases, this is something to be worked on, and becoming familiar with the opposite sex as being non violent is important. But for an individual with PSTD immediately after the traumatic event, that minor anxiety is experienced at the same level as the fear she was experiencing the night she was savagely beaten by her ex.

Again, these are individual cases, and all I'm saying is that a blanket law misses the individual. One or two very small shelters in each region that can offer the flexibility of same sex lodging, or even isolated lodging, with the rest of the shelter program integrated to varying degrees, would meet more needs than a blanket "everyone must be treated by everyone."


You're making the blanket claim that domestic abuse causes post traumatic stress. While I don't deny that this is possible, I think that those cases are the extreme and not the normal. For contrast, let's take an even more heinous and traumatic crime: rape. Do we require people to not share a gender with the assailant in order to offer medical services, counseling, support, or safety to the victim? Conversely, do we offer to victims of rape tax-funded shelters that discriminate against anyone sharing a common characteristic with assailants?
 
2009-04-05 03:01:13 PM
The Numbers: gulogulo: So, did you report your lawyer when he admitted to you that he actively encouraged perjury when he was advising these women to lie? I'm calling total BS on that part of your story unless you took actions to follow up on this.

I was going to argue this point with you, but then I read that:

I've been on enough of these threads and seen enough actual lawyers post here calling BS on claims like that to be fooled.

Thank God I didn't. You have posts on Fark to call on as evidence that is doesn't happen. How could I possibly argue against that?


Oh come on, take it with a grain of salt. I know enough about the law and perjury to know that a lawyer is in serious trouble if he's telling his clients to lie. If a lawyer ADMITS to you that's what he does, you ought to be reporting it. So what's your complaint?
 
2009-04-05 03:07:30 PM
OBBN: gulogulo: OBBN: ashmael: his sounds reasonable except domestic violence has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with relationship.

See my above posts, domestic violence is increasingly becoming less about domestic violence and more about positioning yourself for the upcoming divorce. Don't believe me, just do a google search and read horror story after horror story. Funny thing about the stories too, they all sound exactly alike. Almost as if some organization was advising women on how to go about doing this.

So, did you report your lawyer when he admitted to you that he actively encouraged perjury when he was advising these women to lie? I'm calling total BS on that part of your story unless you took actions to follow up on this. I've been on enough of these threads and seen enough actual lawyers post here calling BS on claims like that to be fooled. That, and your screed while might be partially true sounds much like the propaganda stock stories and language you see on the sites that you mentioned in your post.

No I didn't report my attorney. To be honest I was really in a state of shock at that time in my life. Between the emotional roller coaster and the pain not much was clear then. Looking back there are a lot of things I would have done different. Another attorney, yes .. report him .. maybe I should have, but I really didn't think about it at the time. I actually thought that he was on my side ... but like most attorneys he was on the side of making money. Divorce is big business in this country. The attorneys, the women's groups, the courts. No one wants to save marriages in this country, there is too much money to be made in divorces.


It all gets back to really knowing the person you're with before you marry them. It isn't marriages that are the problem, it's the people who don't look before they leap. Your ex sounds awful, but really..if you think about it, did she ever have a vindictive streak before? Maybe not towards you, but towards other people that upset her? My guess is there were signs that there was this nasty streak in her but as it wasn't directed towards you it was probably fairly easy to overlook it. Of course, you have a lot of company in this as many people overlook their loved one's flaws when faced with the possibility of being single again. So, don't feel too bad. However, this isn't a flaw of marriage, its a flaw of the current societal mindset and need for instant gratification. It isn't a gender issue, and I'm glad to see that you don't see it necessarily as one either.

If what your lawyer said is true, you could still go back and report the incident.
 
2009-04-05 03:15:31 PM
ashmael: You're making the blanket claim that domestic abuse causes post traumatic stress. While I don't deny that this is possible, I think that those cases are the extreme and not the normal. For contrast, let's take an even more heinous and traumatic crime: rape. Do we require people to not share a gender with the assailant in order to offer medical services, counseling, support, or safety to the victim? Conversely, do we offer to victims of rape tax-funded shelters that discriminate against anyone sharing a common characteristic with assailants?

Sorry - I obviously didn't convey what I was trying to say properly. I am talking about an extremely small subset of victims of domestic abuse... hence the small facility (by small, I mean like... a single house). The much larger population of domestic abuse victims who don't fall under the category of diagnosed/suspected post traumatic stress, would be better served by integrated shelters with varying ranged of integration (men and women's dorm etc).

Your question about rape is an interesting one, and to be honest, I have no answer. To be honest I don't know what services are available to victims of rape.

My thought is not to discriminate... if it's not offered as an option to both genders, then it's a failing system.
 
2009-04-05 03:19:07 PM
gulogulo: I know enough about the law and perjury to know that a lawyer is in serious trouble if he's gets caught telling his clients to lie.

FTFY

And I know enough about lawyers to know there are some who will take that risk. Maybe it won't always be done directly, perhaps twisting innocent situations to become apparent instances of abuse, but there are lawyers who will play the system however they can just to get a win.

If a lawyer ADMITS to you that's what he does, you ought to be reporting it. So what's your complaint?

Yes, it ought to be reported, but not reporting it isn't evidence that it didn't happen
 
2009-04-05 03:20:24 PM
Sow, reap, yada yada yada...
 
2009-04-05 03:25:33 PM
Good. Shelters should be providing services to victims of domestic abuse, regardless of gender.

/ Get with it, already!
 
2009-04-05 03:30:59 PM
One of you guys should use this to his advantage. Go to a shelter, claim to be abused. Find a hot, crying MILF and tell her your woes. Profit?
 
2009-04-05 03:36:14 PM
Moonfisher: One of you guys should use this to his advantage. Go to a shelter, claim to be abused. Find a hot, crying MILF and tell her your woes. Profit?

The shelters should be separate for men and women as it would be very easy for an abusive partner to claim abuse i.e get into a fight go to the shelter which would most likely to be the same as his/her victim since they would live in the same area and beat the crap out of them. But there should be help for both.
 
2009-04-05 03:41:55 PM
The Numbers: gulogulo: I know enough about the law and perjury to know that a lawyer is in serious trouble if he's gets caught telling his clients to lie.

FTFY

And I know enough about lawyers to know there are some who will take that risk. Maybe it won't always be done directly, perhaps twisting innocent situations to become apparent instances of abuse, but there are lawyers who will play the system however they can just to get a win.

If a lawyer ADMITS to you that's what he does, you ought to be reporting it. So what's your complaint?

Yes, it ought to be reported, but not reporting it isn't evidence that it didn't happen


Of course there are crooked lawyers out there, but that doesn't mean its standard, either, to tell women to lie.

Not to mention, if you're sitting with a lawyer that is casually telling you that your farked because of the widespread perjury and and other lawyers convince their female clients to do, don't you think you'd get a new attorney for at least the fact that he's incredibly stupid to be sharing that info with you?
 
2009-04-05 03:44:06 PM
I really should proofread. "Your farked" is "you're farked" and other corrections that need to be made.
 
2009-04-05 03:46:06 PM
I could have easily won a knock-down drag-out fight with this girl, but it's not a prize fight. It's someone you have feelings for trying to strangle you. Someone you don't want to hurt, even while keeping them from injuring you.

This.

This is the difference b/w men and women and why there is not the help for men in that if they so desired most men could flatten the woman who is abusing them, while most women cannot do so and if they tried would be beaten more. However it is the exact reason that we should bend over backwards to stop women from abusing their men as it is the good men and the kind men who will not beat the crap through a person(woman) even when she hits him. These are the men we want. We want them to know that violence is never tolerated and that we will help if someone is being abused and that we will never ignore them and that we will never put them in a position whereby they need to deal with it outside of the law.

woman or MAN
 
2009-04-05 04:09:48 PM
This is long past due. Though it obviously doesn't force the sexist women in places like this to give equal treatment to abused men, so it does not go far enough. This anti sexism law needs extending and then rolling out in many places.

In revolting places like New Zealand, Political Correctness does not mean equality for all. Men often get beaten and then are forced onto the street while paying for the rent or mortgage for their ex partner (it is called an "Occupation Order). Men are often beaten to a bloody pulp by massive Polynesian women and then the women run to the courts with not a bruise or scratch to claim they were beaten by their man... the man is not allowed to have a defense (ex parte), even if they hear about the secret court case that will automatically find them and their beaten and batted bodies guilty of domestic abuse. With no mens refuges, generations of men have been forced to live on the street and to eat fruit off public fruit trees.

Well at least NZ tried dragging its sorry arse into the first world a few years back by making rape by a woman illegal. Women do rape. Women rape children, women and men. Women are not above using weapons to rape men in New Zealand. Men who were raped were told it was not illegal for a woman to rape men by the police before NZ made it a crime.

Men are also regularly subjected to fraud by the court system as well. Government funded court counseling services "anger management" are known in New Zealand to add any random mans name to their list of "clients" so they can claim that he requested anger management, and received anger management counseling. Without these names, these services would not get the funding that they do to keep the councilors in the lifestyle they prefer.

These women claim they want equality, but only want female superiority. Political correctness is code for white man bashing (many times literally)... make no mistake.
 
2009-04-05 04:19:32 PM
As a female who has been abused in a relationship with a larger male,(although when push came to shove, it turns out I was just that hair nastier it took to survive), I think this might be a positive idea.
It wouldn't be a great hook-up setting though, as these people are likely to end up beating each other if they re-mate in the early stages, but it could still go miles to sweep away stereotypes and reduce the downtime spent wallowing in victimization.
 
2009-04-05 04:22:32 PM
gulogulo: Of course there are crooked lawyers out there, but that doesn't mean its standard, either, to tell women to lie.

I don't think it is standard for lawyers to outright tell people to lie, but in the combative courtroom environment it is standard for a lawyer to portray all events in a manner that favours their client, and in doing this some will cross lines.

Not to mention, if you're sitting with a lawyer that is casually telling you that your farked because of the widespread perjury and and other lawyers convince their female clients to do, don't you think you'd get a new attorney for at least the fact that he's incredibly stupid to be sharing that info with you?

Could that not also be classed as giving an honest appraisal of the system, and of your chances? Personally I would be more upset with a lawyer if they knew it went on but didn't mention it to me because they couldn't then properly prepare me for what to expect in the courtroom.

Secondly - if it were for custody of my kids and I knew my wife and her lawyer were going to fight dirty, would I want someone who understood the 'dark arts' of the courtroom? Yes, I think I would (although that doesn't mean I would actually stoop to that level).
 
2009-04-05 04:23:31 PM
But good like to a man trying to get into a shelter. When I needed help, they found I wasn't nearly needy enough because I didn't have dependent children. And if the lack of children hadn't disqualified me, the fact that I had a job would have.
If a man can't show that he's absolutely bereft, helpless and desperate, he'll still likely experience the same absence of help.
 
2009-04-05 04:27:53 PM
MelMacD: As a female who has been abused in a relationship with a larger male,(although when push came to shove, it turns out I was just that hair nastier it took to survive),

Nice turn of phrase.
 
2009-04-05 04:35:20 PM
The Numbers: Could that not also be classed as giving an honest appraisal of the system, and of your chances? Personally I would be more upset with a lawyer if they knew it went on but didn't mention it to me because they couldn't then properly prepare me for what to expect in the courtroom.

You're confusing a lawyer telling someone how the system works with a lawyer admitting he cheats the system on a regular basis and all of his friends do too. One is prudent, the other not only could get you in a lot of trouble but also makes you look incredibly stupid to admit to something so openly. PARTICULARLY when it is meant to dissuade someone from fighting a court case. That simply doesn't make sense. Is it possible that some dimwitted lawyer has done this? Yes. But what are the chances of someone being even denser and saying "Gee, this guy sounds good, I want him representing me even if he doesn't know how to keep his trap shut about things that could get him disbarred." Pretty slim. And what are the chances that this phenomenon of lawyers admitting to illegal behavior to potential clients is really wide-spread; the rule rather than the exception? Really, really farking small.
 
2009-04-05 04:46:02 PM
Years ago, guys were taught not to hit women, just each other. Then, women started taking advantage of this exception. Now, if a guy follows the rule, he's in a no-win situation. He either defends himself, and gets called a brute. Or, he doesn't defend himself and takes abuse, and gets called a wuss. Women are definitely the more vicious. Maybe not stronger, or more skilled, but more vicious. I'm all for peaceful resolution, but when someone's swinging a butcher knife or baseball bat at me, I'm swinging right back at the first chance. I'm sure most people, male and female would act the same. If funding is being siphoned off for women's services, men's service also deserve funding.
 
2009-04-05 04:51:01 PM
Based on what I've read here, it seems that if you're a man and are forced to defend yourself if a woman attacks you, there are a few simple rules to live by:

1. Make sure you defend yourself with extreme prejudice
2. Make sure there are no witnesses
3. Have a good friend help you hide the body
4. Claim spousal abandonment
5. Profit!

/The sad thing is, it seems that this is the only way for a man to win
 
2009-04-05 04:59:06 PM
gulogulo: You're confusing a lawyer telling someone how the system works with a lawyer admitting he cheats the system on a regular basis and all of his friends do too. One is prudent, the other not only could get you in a lot of trouble but also makes you look incredibly stupid to admit to something so openly. PARTICULARLY when it is meant to dissuade someone from fighting a court case. That simply doesn't make sense. Is it possible that some dimwitted lawyer has done this? Yes. But what are the chances of someone being even denser and saying "Gee, this guy sounds good, I want him representing me even if he doesn't know how to keep his trap shut about things that could get him disbarred." Pretty slim. And what are the chances that this phenomenon of lawyers admitting to illegal behavior to potential clients is really wide-spread; the rule rather than the exception? Really, really farking small.

As you say, the chances of a lawyer openly admitting it in plain English are slim, but you seem to have totally discounted that a lot can be said by implication, or in an ambiguous fashion. Lawyers are masters of leading questions, rationalisations and double-speak - these are key components of their professional abilities.

Do you really think that a lawyer couldn't explain that this stuff goes on, or even that they themselves do it, in a manner that would cover themselves from any actual liability? Do you think that a lawyer couldn't draw someone into lying without having to explicitly tell them to do it?
 
2009-04-05 05:00:04 PM
OBBN: This issue hits home. A few years ago I went thru a NASTY divorce. My ex was having an affair (I didn't know it at the time). She wanted me out of the house and I told her that I wasn't leaving. I had done nothing wrong and we need to work out our problems.
Next thing I know there are two cops at the door and she is claiming that I "threatened" her! I end up arrest and in jail for 3 days and I didn't do a damn thing. On the way to the jail the arresting officer told me that if they get called on a domestic, someone is going to jail and it is almost ALWAYS the man. There doesn't have to be proof, she just has to make the accusation.
So, I am trying to figure out what happened, I called my kids and they tell me that the same day I was taken forcibly from my home "Mr. Chris" has moved in with us and mommy" WOW, she used a false domestic battery claim to force me from my home to move her boyfriend in!
So I get an attorney and you all are going to love this. He tells me that I can't fight this I will not win, period! And he also tells me that he advised all of his women clients going thru a divorce to make a domestic violence charge as it helps them in the divorce. Doesn't matter if it is true or not, just make the accusation. I couldn't believe it and then I did some reasearch on the internet and I find out that this is COMMON thru out the country! Story after story I read and it was exactly the same thing!
So, I tell my attorney lets play tit for tat and lets get a restraining order on her and play the game. Then I am told that in this county a man CANNOT get a restraining order on a woman unless she basically shot him or stabbed him. She got one on me to keep me from my home and my kids so her new boyfriend could live in my house.
I am sorry for the rant, but MEN YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT THIS IS A POSSIBILITY IF YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE GETTING A DIVORCE. IF YOU ARE IN THIS SITUATION I SUGGEST YOU VISIT WWW.DADSDIVORCE.COM AND TAKE A LOOK AT SOMETHING CALLED "THE LIST". This list will help you get prepared for the hell that is to follow.
I apologize to all for the rant, but unless it has happened to you, you have no idea how much your life will be farked. MEN DO NOT GET MARRIED, EVER IT IS A TRAP!


My ex-wife pulled this crap just a week before the change in custody hearing.
Took me five years of fighting to finally get these charges dead docketed.
Nobody gives a shiat about the truth.
 
2009-04-05 05:12:03 PM
This sucks , Now more guys will find out that shelters are great places to pick up needy girls.
 
2009-04-05 05:12:17 PM
charlied: OBBN: This issue hits home. A few years ago I went thru a NASTY divorce. My ex was having an affair (I didn't know it at the time). She wanted me out of the house and I told her that I wasn't leaving. I had done nothing wrong and we need to work out our problems.
Next thing I know there are two cops at the door and she is claiming that I "threatened" her! I end up arrest and in jail for 3 days and I didn't do a damn thing. On the way to the jail the arresting officer told me that if they get called on a domestic, someone is going to jail and it is almost ALWAYS the man. There doesn't have to be proof, she just has to make the accusation.
So, I am trying to figure out what happened, I called my kids and they tell me that the same day I was taken forcibly from my home "Mr. Chris" has moved in with us and mommy" WOW, she used a false domestic battery claim to force me from my home to move her boyfriend in!
So I get an attorney and you all are going to love this. He tells me that I can't fight this I will not win, period! And he also tells me that he advised all of his women clients going thru a divorce to make a domestic violence charge as it helps them in the divorce. Doesn't matter if it is true or not, just make the accusation. I couldn't believe it and then I did some reasearch on the internet and I find out that this is COMMON thru out the country! Story after story I read and it was exactly the same thing!
So, I tell my attorney lets play tit for tat and lets get a restraining order on her and play the game. Then I am told that in this county a man CANNOT get a restraining order on a woman unless she basically shot him or stabbed him. She got one on me to keep me from my home and my kids so her new boyfriend could live in my house.
I am sorry for the rant, but MEN YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT THIS IS A POSSIBILITY IF YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE GETTING A DIVORCE. IF YOU ARE IN THIS SITUATION I SUGGEST YOU VISIT WWW.DADSDIVORCE.COM AND TAKE A LOOK AT SOMETHING CALLED "THE LIST". This list will help you get prepared for the hell that is to follow.
I apologize to all for the rant, but unless it has happened to you, you have no idea how much your life will be farked. MEN DO NOT GET MARRIED, EVER IT IS A TRAP!

My ex-wife pulled this crap just a week before the change in custody hearing.
Took me five years of fighting to finally get these charges dead docketed.
Nobody gives a shiat about the truth.


Women often wonder why men would rather stick their dicks in a grinder than commit. Abuse of men through the court systems of the world is more than common, and men do talk to each other. When women can admit that the system as it stands needs to be dismantled, they will find men much more eager to commit.

I was abused by one woman more than anyone can believe (except my lawyer who did not believe me, and then she met the biatch. My lawyer then, with hands shaking and voice wavering, apologized for me for not believing every word), I then spent three years trying to have a vasectomy from 18 years old to 21 years old. No doctor would give me one. Just as there are a small minority of horrific men, there are a small minority of horrific women, and if those horrific women terrorize 10 men each in their lifetime, it spreads the fear of women to a disproportionate number of men. Some women only cuddle kittens in court for the judge... they prefer to hurl 4 month old babies across the room to hit the wall on the other side (that is one I personally lived through).
 
2009-04-05 05:26:00 PM
Ah, we just call them shelters now.
 
2009-04-05 05:27:02 PM
annoyed_grunt: lewismarktwo: Yeah, cause all men are the same and those men (all 12 of them) who were abused just can't wait to pay the abuse forward to the first women they come across.

Or maybe it's a good idea to expose abused women to non abusive men who might understand what they were going through so, you know, the abused women realize that all men aren't scum?

Wow, stereotype much?

So you don't think men that are the victim of the same thing as women should not receive the same care as women? How can you reconcile that as not being blatantly sexist?


Jormungandr: And the abused men realize the same thing?

www.learningthings.com

This is about abused women not wanting to be around any men because they don't trust them. I would think exposure to some of the few men who have gone through the same thing might be beneficial. I also weep for humanity.
 
2009-04-05 05:27:14 PM
i621.photobucket.com

Men are bad, m'kay
 
2009-04-05 06:19:51 PM
disestablishmenator

I'm getting really sick of all the politically-correct anti-male sexism in society.

Agree. Check out Glenn Sacks - http://www.glennsacks.com, he's a good source of news about these things, and links for taking action.

The latest BS I saw was a Facebook "Cause" called "real men never hit a woman" or something like that. Well guess who the beneficiary group for donations was? A lesbian-oriented LGBT charity! Guess what? There are similar rates of domestic violence among lesbian couples. So shouldn't their group be called "a real woman never hits a woman" or something? Don't they care about lesbians, being a lesbian group, or do they care more about spreading the sexist man-hate?

Most studies I've seen indicate women were as likely to initiate violence as men, though they got injured more often - and how much of the latter might be due to difference in willingness/support for women reporting DA injuries is anyone's guess.

OBBN

So I get an attorney and you all are going to love this. He tells me that I can't fight this I will not win, period! And he also tells me that he advised all of his women clients going thru a divorce to make a domestic violence charge as it helps them in the divorce. Doesn't matter if it is true or not, just make the accusation. I couldn't believe it and then I did some reasearch on the internet and I find out that this is COMMON thru out the country! Story after story I read and it was exactly the same thing!
So, I tell my attorney lets play tit for tat and lets get a restraining order on her and play the game. Then I am told that in this county a man CANNOT get a restraining order on a woman unless she basically shot him or stabbed him. She got one on me to keep me from my home and my kids so her new boyfriend could live in my house.
I am sorry for the rant, but MEN YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT THIS IS A POSSIBILITY IF YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE GETTING A DIVORCE. IF YOU ARE IN THIS SITUATION I SUGGEST YOU VISIT WWW.DADSDIVORCE.COM AND TAKE A LOOK AT SOMETHING CALLED "THE LIST". This list will help you get prepared for the hell that is to follow.


In addition to DadsDivorce.com consider looking to http://www.FathersAndFamilies.com.

MelMacD

But good like to a man trying to get into a shelter. When I needed help, they found I wasn't nearly needy enough because I didn't have dependent children.

But if a woman has kids, they're her dependent children, but not the man's?
 
2009-04-05 06:28:07 PM
grotto_man: disestablishmenator

I'm getting really sick of all the politically-correct anti-male sexism in society.

Agree. Check out Glenn Sacks - http://www.glennsacks.com, he's a good source of news about these things, and links for taking action.

The latest BS I saw was a Facebook "Cause" called "real men never hit a woman" or something like that. Well guess who the beneficiary group for donations was? A lesbian-oriented LGBT charity! Guess what? There are similar rates of domestic violence among lesbian couples. So shouldn't their group be called "a real woman never hits a woman" or something? Don't they care about lesbians, being a lesbian group, or do they care more about spreading the sexist man-hate?

Most studies I've seen indicate women were as likely to initiate violence as men, though they got injured more often - and how much of the latter might be due to difference in willingness/support for women reporting DA injuries is anyone's guess.

OBBN

So I get an attorney and you all are going to love this. He tells me that I can't fight this I will not win, period! And he also tells me that he advised all of his women clients going thru a divorce to make a domestic violence charge as it helps them in the divorce. Doesn't matter if it is true or not, just make the accusation. I couldn't believe it and then I did some reasearch on the internet and I find out that this is COMMON thru out the country! Story after story I read and it was exactly the same thing!
So, I tell my attorney lets play tit for tat and lets get a restraining order on her and play the game. Then I am told that in this county a man CANNOT get a restraining order on a woman unless she basically shot him or stabbed him. She got one on me to keep me from my home and my kids so her new boyfriend could live in my house.
I am sorry for the rant, but MEN YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT THIS IS A POSSIBILITY IF YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE GETTING A DIVORCE. IF YOU ARE IN THIS SITUATION I SUGGEST YOU VISIT WWW.DADSDIVORCE.COM AND TAKE A LOOK AT SOMETHING CALLED "THE LIST". This list will help you get prepared for the hell that is to follow.

In addition to DadsDivorce.com consider looking to http://www.FathersAndFamilies.com.

MelMacD

But good like to a man trying to get into a shelter. When I needed help, they found I wasn't nearly needy enough because I didn't have dependent children.

But if a woman has kids, they're her dependent children, but not the man's?


You forgot to add that in most child abuse cases it is a female relative that physically hurts the child. Some studies show that the abusers can be higher than 80% compared to less than 20% male.

The fact that the court believes that the children are safer in the hands of their mothers is blatant sexism.
 
2009-04-05 06:42:13 PM
lewismarktwo: annoyed_grunt: lewismarktwo: Yeah, cause all men are the same and those men (all 12 of them) who were abused just can't wait to pay the abuse forward to the first women they come across.

Or maybe it's a good idea to expose abused women to non abusive men who might understand what they were going through so, you know, the abused women realize that all men aren't scum?

Wow, stereotype much?

So you don't think men that are the victim of the same thing as women should not receive the same care as women? How can you reconcile that as not being blatantly sexist?

Jormungandr: And the abused men realize the same thing?



This is about abused women not wanting to be around any men because they don't trust them. I would think exposure to some of the few men who have gone through the same thing might be beneficial. I also weep for humanity.


I have been trying not to discuss my situation... but it needs to be said for the sake of other men who are victims. I was beaten regularly by the mother of my first child. She would beat my son severely, including hurling him across the room. I would hold my son in his bedroom while pushing on the door to stop her from breaking through to beat my son again. I had nowhere to take him. I couldn't subject him to life on the street. This continued, and I stopped having sex with her for obvious reasons. She decided I would service her if I wanted to or not. She took a piece of 2 by 4 and beat me for days non stop until I agreed to have sex with her. She demanded I give her oral sex. She had her period. Yes, I have severe mental problems with that even 20 years later. No the police refused to protect me. She demanded I service her again. I refused. She beat me again with the length of wood. I agreed under duress again... she then left and took the child claiming that she had been hit by me... I had broken bones and I was black and blue... she did not have a scratch on her. She needed no protection, she just needed another way to abuse me. She never moved back into the hoe, but she went to court and got ex parte non molestation, non violence, custody, and occupation orders against me. I had to pay 100% of the rent, but I was not allowed to go back to the empty house. I did not have any real income, so I had no money to live anywhere else, or to buy food. I lived on the street and ate fruit from public trees. I was not the only man on the street because of an "occupation order".

If I had to live with abused women to get away from her I would have. I was understandably terrified of women at the time. I suspect any woman facing real abuse would live with abused men to get away from a terrifying situation. I also suspect that a coed situation would be best fro both men and women in the same situation because it will help with the immediate feeling that all men or all women are abusers.

Exclusion of men is just sexist. There is no excuse. No different from sexist men at one point saying women could not work because they did not have the mental capacity of men.
 
2009-04-05 07:05:40 PM
As someone who has done work in domestic abuse shelters, I am getting a real kick out of these replies.....(I've always wanted to say that).

Requiring a shelter to provide aid to men does not mean that the shelter is required to house men in the same facility. Most shelters already offer services to men in the form of counseling, job assistance, legal aid, and shelter; they just have to be a little creative in meeting those shelter needs. It's really not a big deal. If an organization is not capable of finding ways to accommodate a man, I would rather designate my funding to an organization with the knowledge and competence than can meet the needs of all abuse victims.
 
2009-04-05 07:11:20 PM
boybunny: If I had to live with abused women to get away from her I would have. I was understandably terrified of women at the time. I suspect any woman facing real abuse would live with abused men to get away from a terrifying situation. I also suspect that a coed situation would be best fro both men and women in the same situation because it will help with the immediate feeling that all men or all women are abusers.

Exclusion of men is just sexist. There is no excuse. No different from sexist men at one point saying women could not work because they did not have the mental capacity of men.


As a professional recently commented, these safe houses aren't places meant to start therapy. You might have been comforted bunking with women but a terrified woman might not have been comfortable bunking with you. For anyone who has actually worked in these safe houses, it isn't about telling women that all men are dangerous or making them hate all men. Hell, my guy friend volunteered at one to deter the abusive spouses from coming around or at least talk them into going away. If that were the case, they wouldn't have let him come around. First is giving a sense of safety and security, then you can work on the damage through co-ed therapy.

This article isn't about the safe houses though (and in the way most of the ones for women were started, men can start their own, too). It is about the outreach services which absolutely should be offered to both sexes, regardless of gender.
 
2009-04-05 07:11:49 PM
Grotto_man
But if a woman has kids, they're her dependent children, but not the man's?

Typically, yeah. Your point?

Boybunny

You forgot to add that in most child abuse cases it is a female relative that physically hurts the child. Some studies show that the abusers can be higher than 80% compared to less than 20% male.

ORLY? Your source for those stats please.
 
2009-04-05 07:12:36 PM
I am a gay man who was a victim of domestic violence. He was drunk one night and just turned around and started punching. I had no time to react. And even if I did, it is hard to hit someone you love (if you are sane), even if you are being hit. It caused me a lot of emotional distress. Went through drug addiction, etc. This really messes people up, despite gender.
 
2009-04-05 07:25:15 PM
gulogulo: boybunny: If I had to live with abused women to get away from her I would have. I was understandably terrified of women at the time. I suspect any woman facing real abuse would live with abused men to get away from a terrifying situation. I also suspect that a coed situation would be best fro both men and women in the same situation because it will help with the immediate feeling that all men or all women are abusers.

Exclusion of men is just sexist. There is no excuse. No different from sexist men at one point saying women could not work because they did not have the mental capacity of men.

As a professional recently commented, these safe houses aren't places meant to start therapy. You might have been comforted bunking with women but a terrified woman might not have been comfortable bunking with you. For anyone who has actually worked in these safe houses, it isn't about telling women that all men are dangerous or making them hate all men. Hell, my guy friend volunteered at one to deter the abusive spouses from coming around or at least talk them into going away. If that were the case, they wouldn't have let him come around. First is giving a sense of safety and security, then you can work on the damage through co-ed therapy.

This article isn't about the safe houses though (and in the way most of the ones for women were started, men can start their own, too). It is about the outreach services which absolutely should be offered to both sexes, regardless of gender.


Shelters are a way to get people away from abuse. Not places for all to feel comfortable. If that were the case, abused women should all be flown to a five star resort in Rio because that is where they, and their children would be most comfortable.

Most professionals in this area have their own axes to grind. Having dealt with it myself. Do you realize that I tried to have rape counseling, but was refused over and over from every rape counseling service? One group even got all the sexist women in the office to come out and laugh me out of the building.

Women that feel aggrieved and want payback on all men gravitate toward this industry. It is not surprising men find no one that is willing to help.
 
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