FARK.com: (4310115) Womens shelters ordered to help male victims of domestic violence or have their funding cut off

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		Womens shelters ordered to help male victims of domestic violence or have their funding cut off (telegraph.co.uk)		381
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Smarshmallow		2009-04-05 12:01:24 PM

IKillBugs: It would be offensive and ignorant if we were discussing race, but we aren't.

We are discussing gender, and only gender.

You missed his point entirely. I think that it's a completely valid one.

cryinoutloud		2009-04-05 12:01:40 PM

Anastacya:
But I would question your choice of this guy. He never acted dangerous or weird from the outset? He didn't set off warning bells?

No, he didn't. Not from the outset. It wasn't until about a year in. No "what are you doing", none of the typical possessive behavior, etc. Sometimes it's not there until you've invested quite a bit of time.

Yes, me too. Not until we were married. And he still fools A LOT of people. You all don't understand how convincing they are until you see them in action (and you don't--because to outsiders they're the nicest people around.)

I came from a pretty-farked up family, so how would I know to avoid people like this? Think about it before you ask questions like this (and they're in EVERY SINGLE THREAD on this subject). If all you ever knew was dysfunction, if that was "normal" to you, why would you grow up and choose a mate who was different from that? It would be like me choosing to hook up with a man who was a hard-core Muslim with five other wives. That is too foreign to me. When I was in my 20's, a nice 'normal' guy was strange to me. I went and found a guy who reminded me of my family, just like most of us do.

punto		2009-04-05 12:02:34 PM

Often the women and children they help will only feel comfortable without a male presence.

well, they need to get over it and understand that the abuser is not every man in the planet, just their douchebag boyfriend.

Still, I'm against this. I mean, first womens shelters, what's next? male hooters waiters? male strippers? it's a slippery slope people!

cryinoutloud		2009-04-05 12:03:24 PM

peachgirl:
cryinoutloud: .
didn't read the thread, did you? Just thought you'd come in and offer your expert advice.

Read it. Yawned through your post about police injustice when you didn't report the abuse.

Well, as long as you didn't forget to mention that your boyfriend liked to spank you. that was the important part, wasn't it?

LordZorch		2009-04-05 12:03:44 PM

PokeyMon: My ex attacked me with a big ol' knife in the kitchen.

And she tried to beat me to death with a baseball bat while I was asleep....

As far as the courts were concerned, it was "try to stay out of her way when she gets homicidal, you bastard"...

Doppleganger871		2009-04-05 12:03:47 PM

Egalitarian: OK Farkers of both sexes - why did you put up with this crap?

I've never been with a man who hit me. I expect that were a man to hit me, I would walk out on him and not go back. Why do you put up with that first hit? or that first tantrum of lying across the door?

Often wonder that myself. I blame child-proof caps.

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:04:41 PM

Smarshmallow: IKillBugs: It would be offensive and ignorant if we were discussing race, but we aren't.

We are discussing gender, and only gender.

You missed his point entirely. I think that it's a completely valid one.

No, I got his point, that's why I stated that it would be ignorant and offensive. This discussion is about gender, not race. 2 completely different balls of wax, deserving 2 separate discussions.

cryinoutloud		2009-04-05 12:05:18 PM

annoyed_grunt:
The point which you are not only quoting facts to back up, but consistently missing, is that it happens to BOTH women and men. It seems you are asserting that we should not prosecute women who abuse men, and not help men who are victims of abuse, simply because they're slightly less likely to be a victim in these crimes. Those 147,000 victims are still victims, whether they're evil, evil men or eternally good and helpless women.

Who said that? Not me.

CrispFlows		2009-04-05 12:08:07 PM

You know what I've wondered...

What happens if a woman snaps when a guy is abusing her and kills the guy?

She's a hero! She took control of her life. (See the movie, "Enough")

What happens if a guy snaps from one hammer hit too many?

I betcha he sure as hell isn't gonna be commended as a hero.

Smarshmallow		2009-04-05 12:10:30 PM

IKillBugs: No, I got his point, that's why I stated that it would be ignorant and offensive. This discussion is about gender, not race. 2 completely different balls of wax, deserving 2 separate discussions.

He's aware of that, and even points it out. He's drawing a comparison, and it's a perfectly appropriate one.

dead_dangler		2009-04-05 12:10:31 PM

cryinoutloud: I came from a pretty-farked up family, so how would I know to avoid people like this? Think about it before you ask questions like this (and they're in EVERY SINGLE THREAD on this subject). If all you ever knew was dysfunction, if that was "normal" to you, why would you grow up and choose a mate who was different from that? It would be like me choosing to hook up with a man who was a hard-core Muslim with five other wives. That is too foreign to me. When I was in my 20's, a nice 'normal' guy was strange to me. I went and found a guy who reminded me of my family, just like most of us do.

But the same argument can be applied to abusive men!!!

Shouldn't they be excused when they beat their partner, because, after all, it's all they've ever known?!?!? They're not bad guys, they just grew up in a dysfunctional family!!!

peachgirl		2009-04-05 12:10:55 PM

cryinoutloud:
Well, as long as you didn't forget to mention that your boyfriend liked to spank you. that was the important part, wasn't it?

Likes.
Should I make up a sob story instead?

Greywar		2009-04-05 12:10:56 PM

CrispFlows: You know what I've wondered...

What happens if a woman snaps when a guy is abusing her and kills the guy?

She's a hero! She took control of her life. (See the movie, "Enough")

What happens if a guy snaps from one hammer hit too many?

I betcha he sure as hell isn't gonna be commended as a hero.

I suspect its more common that the man takes his life. Women are often told that they can be the victim and get support, whereas men are told that if they are the victim they need to man up, and are worthless.

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:11:46 PM

Smarshmallow: IKillBugs: No, I got his point, that's why I stated that it would be ignorant and offensive. This discussion is about gender, not race. 2 completely different balls of wax, deserving 2 separate discussions.

He's aware of that, and even points it out. He's drawing a comparison, and it's a perfectly appropriate one.

Appropriate for a completely separate discussion.

Greywar		2009-04-05 12:13:21 PM

peachgirl: cryinoutloud:
Well, as long as you didn't forget to mention that your boyfriend liked to spank you. that was the important part, wasn't it?

Likes.
Should I make up a sob story instead?

Uhmmm i don't know about anyone else, but i would love to hear more details. especially more intimate details..and what other things you do....

/hey this is fark-what did you expect?

Polly Ester		2009-04-05 12:13:28 PM

What a male victim of domestic violence may look like

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:14:46 PM

Polly Ester: What a male victim of domestic violence may look like

What the reason men don't report abuse would post.

CrispFlows		2009-04-05 12:15:36 PM

IKillBugs: ashmael: It's funny how offensive and ignorant we would view some of the comments on this thread if, instead of seeking to provide a safe place for non-men away for men, that qualifier was used for any other subset of people. Like, say, a safe place for white people away from black people. I mean, if you were just assaulted by a black person, you should be given special treatment in a center designed for helping people who have been assaulted by black people, and no black people should be allowed there, because that's dangerous.

It would be offensive and ignorant if we were discussing race, but we aren't.

We are discussing gender, and only gender.

It's an separating characteristic and is not that different.

One is melanoma count and the other is chromosomal difference.

I was a roommate with three other black dudes, one was cool but the other two was douchebags. One belongs to the NAACP, a 'Black's first' fraternity and I'm not sure, black panthers and the other guy just went along.

Every day did not go by without their BS of me repressing them.

Can you believe that? A single white male in the company of three black dudes, one in a pre-med school accusing me of repressing their race.

/ Hiya Jamal. Fark you, Greg... Man up, Aaron.

Smarshmallow		2009-04-05 12:16:12 PM

IKillBugs: Appropriate for a completely separate discussion.

You don't understand comparisons, do you? See, a comparison is a tool that allows us to put two different things side-by-side to emphasize the differences. You can't compare something to itself to highlight differences, because there aren't any.

ashmael		2009-04-05 12:18:04 PM

IKillBugs: It would be offensive and ignorant if we were discussing race, but we aren't.

We are discussing gender, and only gender.

Oh, good to know that discrimination is a-okay in that realm but not any others.

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:19:23 PM

Smarshmallow: IKillBugs: Appropriate for a completely separate discussion.

You don't understand comparisons, do you? See, a comparison is a tool that allows us to put two different things side-by-side to emphasize the differences. You can't compare something to itself to highlight differences, because there aren't any.

Yes, I do understand comparisons, and admitted it's validity. I also explained that this was a discussing revolving around gender. Both are important issues and do not deserved to be diluted. Hence...separate discussion.

Egalitarian		2009-04-05 12:20:01 PM

Man, why should anyone ever get into a relationship ever, since half of people turn into psychos one, two, three years down the road.

You know what makes me bitter: a lot of you dudes place no value on a woman being NOT like these psycho biatches, until years into misery. You know, a woman who shows up on time, returns phone calls, is supportive, doesn't tear you down, doesn't cheat, doesn't freak out and throw plates at your head, takes care of you in the bedroom, doesn't withhold sex to manipulate you.

You'd rather have some freakin' drama-addicted arm candy bimbo to impress your friends. To my mind, this is just as bad as women who only want to date "bad boys".

\my ex BF congratulated me on many of the above qualities, comparing me to the "exciting redhead" his brother was dating
\\she drunkenly threw vodka on his friends and struck them rapidly with the flat of a knife blade
\\\\but she was a redhead with big boobs, so of course she carries more market share than I do

cldafletcher		2009-04-05 12:20:12 PM

Women's only clubs must be banned.

CrispFlows		2009-04-05 12:21:04 PM

Egalitarian: Greywar
It sounds like you've been through some really awful times.

But I am still asking, why did you get involved with this woman in the first place and decide to procreate with her? Did her psycho-ness just suddenly appear one day after the kids were born?

Some people sees kids as an lock-in for the other to stay and therefore, are allowed to act like an ass....

Since to them, things would stay status quo. You know, the 'think of the kids' BS.

If I saw my dad abused and he just accepts it as normal, I'm not sure if I would respect him. I'd respect him more to leave.

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:21:15 PM

CrispFlows: It's an separating characteristic and is not that different.

One is melanoma count and the other is chromosomal difference.

I was a roommate with three other black dudes, one was cool but the other two was douchebags. One belongs to the NAACP, a 'Black's first' fraternity and I'm not sure, black panthers and the other guy just went along.

Every day did not go by without their BS of me repressing them.

Can you believe that? A single white male in the company of three black dudes, one in a pre-med school accusing me of repressing their race.

/ Hiya Jamal. Fark you, Greg... Man up, Aaron.

Please see my response to smarshmallow.

ashmael: Oh, good to know that discrimination is a-okay in that realm but not any others.

1, never said anything of the sort.

2, see response to smarshmallow.

tin_man		2009-04-05 12:21:50 PM

IKillBugs: Smarshmallow: IKillBugs: Appropriate for a completely separate discussion.

You don't understand comparisons, do you? See, a comparison is a tool that allows us to put two different things side-by-side to emphasize the differences. You can't compare something to itself to highlight differences, because there aren't any.

Yes, I do understand comparisons, and admitted it's validity. I also explained that this was a discussing revolving around gender. Both are important issues and do not deserved to be diluted. Hence...separate discussion.

Domestic violence is different because there are emotions in play that aren't present in other kinds of conflict.

Polly Ester		2009-04-05 12:22:17 PM

IKillBugs: Polly Ester: What a male victim of domestic violence may look like

What the reason men don't report abuse would post.

Easy, tiger.
I only wanted to point out the masculine features of the woman who wants to deny service to male victims.

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:23:06 PM

tin_man: Domestic violence is different because there are emotions in play that aren't present in other kinds of conflict.

Thank you.

This is a discussion specifically about spousal abuse, not violence in general.

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:23:41 PM

Polly Ester: I only wanted to point out the masculine features of the woman who wants to deny service to male victims.

In that case, carry on.

CrispFlows		2009-04-05 12:24:10 PM

Analogies are not acceptable comparative tool in arguments because 'that method dilutes the importance of the issue'?!

Whatever floats your boat, Debate Judge.

KarentheJimSlayer		2009-04-05 12:24:42 PM

balin007: KarentheJimSlayer: Introducing men into a coed Safehouse environment is not a good idea, as the whole point of the Safehouse is for the victim to focus on themselves, and the last thing they need is to be around a guy in an environment like that.

Why? Because it might actually make women see they are not the real victims all the time? It might make them realize that "oh snap, now more people are going to know we have to treat the men we beat?"

Any reason you put forth for not allowing a man (or child over 12) into a shelter for a abused women is utterly useless. It should be an abused "PERSON" shelter and not some sexist thing created by the feminists of the world to ensure that men still look evil, while in fact they need the exact same service's as the females that go there for help.

As far as I am concerned any shelter that would refuse to accept a man in to help him in an abusive situation does not NEED my tax dollars to keep it open, it's either equal service to both sex's or GTFO!

Um...several of our victims are women who have been abused by other women.

If you think the prevention of domestic violence is a "feminist thing," you couldn't be more wrong.

We had issues in the past because we don't have the facility to keep men and women separate...there were sex/abuse issues...

We don't speak poorly about males at the shelter. We don't badmouth the abuser. We don't encourage women to become lesbians or to burn their bras or whatever you think feminists do nowadays.

We offer help and support in an environment that's conducive to it. Having men around would, frankly, not let the women be as comfortable with themselves.

But if you want to keep up with the "b-b-b-but feminists wahhh" idea, feel free.

tin_man		2009-04-05 12:25:26 PM

CrispFlows: Analogies are not acceptable comparative tool in arguments because 'that method dilutes the importance of the issue'?!

Whatever floats your boat, Debate Judge.

I think your comparison has merit, but it dilutes the reality of what we're talking about here. That was my only point.

Greywar		2009-04-05 12:25:38 PM

Egalitarian:

You'd rather have some freakin' drama-addicted arm candy bimbo to impress your friends. To my mind, this is just as bad as women who only want to date "bad boys".

Hormones fark us up early in life. Even today i can still fall victim to the "omg look at those boobs" thingy. I do enjoy it...and well.....by now I know - big boobs and not a widow probably means psycho at my age. If widowed-check the cause of death.

And women do the bad boy thing WAY too much as well...probably some chemical thingy there too about being able to protect children against wild predaters too.

CrispFlows		2009-04-05 12:29:29 PM

Egalitarian: Man, why should anyone ever get into a relationship ever, since half of people turn into psychos one, two, three years down the road.

You know what makes me bitter: a lot of you dudes place no value on a woman being NOT like these psycho biatches, until years into misery. You know, a woman who shows up on time, returns phone calls, is supportive, doesn't tear you down, doesn't cheat, doesn't freak out and throw plates at your head, takes care of you in the bedroom, doesn't withhold sex to manipulate you.

You'd rather have some freakin' drama-addicted arm candy bimbo to impress your friends. To my mind, this is just as bad as women who only want to date "bad boys".

\my ex BF congratulated me on many of the above qualities, comparing me to the "exciting redhead" his brother was dating
\\she drunkenly threw vodka on his friends and struck them rapidly with the flat of a knife blade
\\\\but she was a redhead with big boobs, so of course she carries more market share than I do

Trust me, I value my wife for those characteristics.

I got tired of women with issues when I just gave up and oddly, within the month, I met my SO.

You know what drew me to her?

Her smile... I figured if she can smile so well without knowing it, she's gotta have a great personality.

5 years later, It still feels like I just married her. She's awesome and very understanding. I made sure she doesn't allow me to do any BS and I get the same deal from her.

/ My cousin throws knives instead of plates.
// There's something about having insane family that helps you get this "issues" radar.

dead_dangler		2009-04-05 12:30:29 PM

balin007		2009-04-05 12:30:55 PM

KarentheJimSlayer: As far as I am concerned any shelter that would refuse to accept a man in to help him in an abusive situation does not NEED my tax dollars to keep it open, it's either equal service to both sex's or GTFO!

Um...several of our victims are women who have been abused by other women.

If you think the prevention of domestic violence is a "feminist thing," you couldn't be more wrong.

We had issues in the past because we don't have the facility to keep men and women separate...there were sex/abuse issues...

We don't speak poorly about males at the shelter. We don't badmouth the abuser. We don't encourage women to become lesbians or to burn their bras or whatever you think feminists do nowadays.

We offer help and support in an environment that's conducive to it. Having men around would, frankly, not let the women be as comfortable with themselves.

But if you want to keep up with the "b-b-b-but feminists wahhh" idea, feel free.

My basic point was. If you want my tax dollars, you support both sex's in the same manner. If you can't do it, then don't ask for monies. Seems like a pretty clear statement.

For years now women have been hammering home the point of equality in the work force, in the community, private clubs. Guess what now they are getting it in return and they are just not going to like it, or will find excuses as to why they cannot do it. Tough, deal with it and treat all the victims of abuse, not just your little girlie friends.

I admit I am not sure how it would all work out but things change, and this is just one of those things that needs to change.

Smarshmallow		2009-04-05 12:32:21 PM

IKillBugs: Yes, I do understand comparisons, and admitted it's validity. I also explained that this was a discussing revolving around gender. Both are important issues and do not deserved to be diluted. Hence...separate discussion.

Again, you don't understand the point. He's not trying to discuss racial discrimination. He's comparing racial segregation to sexual discrimination, and our attitudes to an equivalent situation. For you to say he can't make that comparison, without even trying to justify yourself beyond "it's different," sounds dangerously like you sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la la, can't hear you!"

Treating all men as if they're violent is no different than treating all black people as if they're violent. His point was that for some reason, one situation is acceptable, the other isn't.

Smarshmallow		2009-04-05 12:34:53 PM

tin_man: Domestic violence is different because there are emotions in play that aren't present in other kinds of conflict.

Oh, bullshiat, there's plenty of potential for emotional baggage in a race situation too. This is just more of the "it's different" excuse that IKillBugs was trying.

ashmael		2009-04-05 12:35:42 PM

tin_man:
I think your comparison has merit, but it dilutes the reality of what we're talking about here. That was my only point.

Fine. You won't address my indirect attacks so here goes.

The victim of a traumatic domestic assault needs a safe place away from their assailant. In providing them with a safe place away from all men, the idea is reinforced that their assailant is equivalent to all men. If this weren't the case, then there would be no need to provide segregated safe places, only guarded safe places. And if it's a worry that the assailant could still reach the victim, then it's not a safe place to begin with.

Anyways, the entire argument for having segregated safe houses falls apart in the case of the abused lesbian.

tiamet4		2009-04-05 12:36:16 PM

Great, now the "women get all the breaks in our unjust system" men have been joined by the "black man's keeping me down!" trolls.

\ah Fark

CrispFlows		2009-04-05 12:36:27 PM

KarentheJimSlayer: balin007: KarentheJimSlayer: Introducing men into a coed Safehouse environment is not a good idea, as the whole point of the Safehouse is for the victim to focus on themselves, and the last thing they need is to be around a guy in an environment like that.

Why? Because it might actually make women see they are not the real victims all the time? It might make them realize that "oh snap, now more people are going to know we have to treat the men we beat?"

Any reason you put forth for not allowing a man (or child over 12) into a shelter for a abused women is utterly useless. It should be an abused "PERSON" shelter and not some sexist thing created by the feminists of the world to ensure that men still look evil, while in fact they need the exact same service's as the females that go there for help.

As far as I am concerned any shelter that would refuse to accept a man in to help him in an abusive situation does not NEED my tax dollars to keep it open, it's either equal service to both sex's or GTFO!

Um...several of our victims are women who have been abused by other women.

If you think the prevention of domestic violence is a "feminist thing," you couldn't be more wrong.

We had issues in the past because we don't have the facility to keep men and women separate...there were sex/abuse issues...

We don't speak poorly about males at the shelter. We don't badmouth the abuser. We don't encourage women to become lesbians or to burn their bras or whatever you think feminists do nowadays.

We offer help and support in an environment that's conducive to it. Having men around would, frankly, not let the women be as comfortable with themselves.

But if you want to keep up with the "b-b-b-but feminists wahhh" idea, feel free.

I have no problem with feminists - They helped restore balance between gender differences and In fact, the first act obama signed was for equality of pay between men and women.

We are still dealing with gender imbalance to this day. However, I must emphasize this: By not allowing men to be around, you ARE enforcing the idea that men propagated this problem.

Why not have it women only in the beginning and eventually have an advanced group therapy where the guys are allowed?

Same with the guys, where they can recognize that other guys deal with the same BS too? Isn't that what helps domestic violence victims? The sense that you're not alone in this?

dead_dangler		2009-04-05 12:37:00 PM

tiamet4: Great, now the "women get all the breaks in our unjust system" men have been joined by the "black man's keeping me down!" trolls.

\ah Fark

Are you for real?

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:37:37 PM

Smarshmallow: Again, you don't understand the point. He's not trying to discuss racial discrimination. He's comparing racial segregation to sexual discrimination, and our attitudes to an equivalent situation. For you to say he can't make that comparison, without even trying to justify yourself beyond "it's different," sounds dangerously like you sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la la, can't hear you!"

Treating all men as if they're violent is no different than treating all black people as if they're violent. His point was that for some reason, one situation is acceptable, the other isn't.

Once again....I understood his analogy, and accepted it's validity, as neither situation is acceptable. By bringing that comparison in, however moves the discussion from spousal abuse to discrimination, another topic deserving a separate discussion.

CrispFlows		2009-04-05 12:38:11 PM

dead_dangler: Egalitarian: Man, why should anyone ever get into a relationship ever, since half of people turn into psychos one, two, three years down the road.

You know what makes me bitter: a lot of you dudes place no value on a woman being NOT like these psycho biatches, until years into misery. You know, a woman who shows up on time, returns phone calls, is supportive, doesn't tear you down, doesn't cheat, doesn't freak out and throw plates at your head, takes care of you in the bedroom, doesn't withhold sex to manipulate you.

You'd rather have some freakin' drama-addicted arm candy bimbo to impress your friends. To my mind, this is just as bad as women who only want to date "bad boys".

\my ex BF congratulated me on many of the above qualities, comparing me to the "exciting redhead" his brother was dating
\\she drunkenly threw vodka on his friends and struck them rapidly with the flat of a knife blade
\\\\but she was a redhead with big boobs, so of course she carries more market share than I do

You sound fat.

You sound dim 'n dense.

IKillBugs		2009-04-05 12:39:36 PM

Smarshmallow: Oh, bullshiat, there's plenty of potential for emotional baggage in a race situation too. This is just more of the "it's different" excuse that IKillBugs was trying.

Please read the article. Its about spousal abuse, not about racial violence.

That was the only difference I am referring to.

tin_man		2009-04-05 12:39:43 PM

Smarshmallow: Oh, bullshiat, there's plenty of potential for emotional baggage in a race situation too. This is just more of the "it's different" excuse that IKillBugs was trying.

Oh bullshiat, because the emotional baggage present in your situation is different than the emotional baggage of a person who was abused by somebody that they trusted, and who had promised to love them. Apples and oranges.

ashmael		2009-04-05 12:40:44 PM

dead_dangler: tiamet4: Great, now the "women get all the breaks in our unjust system" men have been joined by the "black man's keeping me down!" trolls.

\ah Fark

Are you for real?

If she couldn't dismiss me as irrelevant without addressing my point, she might have to actually address my point.

Tainted1		2009-04-05 12:40:52 PM

cryinoutloud: Number of violent victimizations
committed by intimates

Male
1992 145,650
1993 163,558
1993 176,168
1994 115,483
1995 147,896

Female
1992 952,188
1993 1,072,072
1994 1,003,16
1995 953,683
1996 837,899

Note: Intimates for the NCVS include current or former
spouses, boyfriends, and girlfriends. Intimates for the SHR
include spouses, ex-spouses, common-law spouses, same
sex partners, boyfriends, and girlfriends.

Violent victimizations
include rape, sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated
and simple assault, as measured by the NCVS, and murder
as reported by law enforcement agencies to the FBI. Data
are for victims age 12 or older.

Sources: BJS, National Crime Victimization Survey
(NCVS), 1992-96, and FBI, Supplementary Homicide

Correction, number of reported vicimizations.

Smarshmallow		2009-04-05 12:42:23 PM

IKillBugs: Once again....I understood his analogy, and accepted it's validity, as neither situation is acceptable. By bringing that comparison in, however moves the discussion from spousal abuse to discrimination, another topic deserving a separate discussion.

No, it doesn't. That's the part you don't get. He's not trying to discuss the racial situation. He's using it because it's a cut-and-try situation that requires no discussion. It would be wrong to do this if the abuser group was "black people." He's simply using it for comparison. You didn't accept his validity, here's your Boobies:

IKillBugs:
It would be offensive and ignorant if we were discussing race, but we aren't.

We are discussing gender, and only gender.

You said that it isn't offensive. Now, you're backtracking and saying that you accept the validity of his comparison.

vudukungfu		2009-04-05 12:42:51 PM

I find it Pythonesque when a discussiion about abuse becomes an argument.

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