NorCalLos: Hollow points are not literally hollow, they're just soft (made of graphite or something, rather than lead).

wtf are you talking about

AnarchoJesse: I call bullshiat.

Hollow points wouldn't blow a hole through a wall-- they'd expand, because what you're describing is what they're supposed to prevent.

You are banned from ever talking about guns and bullets again. Especially magnums, if you're gonna call "bullshiat" on the idea of them going through walls.

That's just bag o' hammers stupid.

NorCalLos: AnarchoJesse: NorCalLos: I was this close to getting shot in the face with a .357 with hollow points when I was a teenager. We thought we had emptied the bullets from the chamber that was next in line and handed it to a friend. He pointed it at my head and I told him not to. He moved it a foot to the side and shot a hole through his bedroom wall, into his dad's room, through his dad's bed and into the floor. Apparently, the barrel rotates counter-clockwise.

I call bullshiat.

Hollow points wouldn't blow a hole through a wall-- they'd expand, because what you're describing is what they're supposed to prevent.

You can call bullshiat all you want, but it happened exactly as I stated it. You're not suggesting hollow points don't move through apartment walls and mattresses, are you?

I am, in fact. Let's give you a conservative guess-- two drywalls, some insulation between the two, a spring mattress with cushioning material on the inside, and wooden floor? There is no farking way a hollowpoint cut through all of that, if even the first two layers of drywall and insulation. It doesn't take much to make a hollow point expand.

That would make you really dumb. Hollow points are not literally hollow, they're just soft (made of graphite or something, rather than lead).

I know all about hollow points-- they're in the S&W on my hip right now, and I know enough about them to know that what you're describing is never likely to ever happen.

AnarchoJesse: I am, in fact. Let's give you a conservative guess-- two drywalls, some insulation between the two, a spring mattress with cushioning material on the inside, and wooden floor? There is no farking way a hollowpoint cut through all of that, if even the first two layers of drywall and insulation. It doesn't take much to make a hollow point expand.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Read and learn. Link (new window)

Molavian: AnarchoJesse: Hollow points wouldn't blow a hole through a wall-- they'd expand, because what you're describing is what they're supposed to prevent.

Hollowpoints will punch through drywall like a hot knife through butter.

Two drywalls and insulation? I'm sorry, but the reason why most folks I know carry hollow points is because they don't cut through walls and kill bystanders.

paygun: NorCalLos: Hollow points are not literally hollow, they're just soft (made of graphite or something, rather than lead).

wtf are you talking about

Not sure exactly, just what I observed in the .357 "my friend" stole out of a car when we were teenagers. The bullets had blue tips that were not made of whatever "normal" bullets are made of. An older cousin said they were hollow points. Was he/me wrong?

Here's a more specific example. .45 ACP hollow points going through 7 layers of 3/4" plywood.
Link (new window)

If bullets don't go through walls, how the hell do they go through the bad guy?

AnarchoJesse: NorCalLos: AnarchoJesse: NorCalLos: I was this close to getting shot in the face with a .357 with hollow points when I was a teenager. We thought we had emptied the bullets from the chamber that was next in line and handed it to a friend. He pointed it at my head and I told him not to. He moved it a foot to the side and shot a hole through his bedroom wall, into his dad's room, through his dad's bed and into the floor. Apparently, the barrel rotates counter-clockwise.

I call bullshiat.

Hollow points wouldn't blow a hole through a wall-- they'd expand, because what you're describing is what they're supposed to prevent.

You can call bullshiat all you want, but it happened exactly as I stated it. You're not suggesting hollow points don't move through apartment walls and mattresses, are you?

I am, in fact. Let's give you a conservative guess-- two drywalls, some insulation between the two, a spring mattress with cushioning material on the inside, and wooden floor? There is no farking way a hollowpoint cut through all of that, if even the first two layers of drywall and insulation. It doesn't take much to make a hollow point expand.

That would make you really dumb. Hollow points are not literally hollow, they're just soft (made of graphite or something, rather than lead).

I know all about hollow points-- they're in the S&W on my hip right now, and I know enough about them to know that what you're describing is never likely to ever happen.

You sir are a retard. I have fired a .357 Magnum hollow point at an old car door and it penetrated through the entire car.

Hollow points are designed to create a deeper broader wound channel. Period.

Jacketed hollow points (JHP) penetrate like a motherfarker.

What you are describing is more like a the law enforcement/self defense rounds desegned for minimal penetration and maximum kinetic discharge on impact. Federal makes a whole line of them in multiple calibers.

But since you sound like a cop I will assume you know jackshiat about firearms beyond that they are the thing you point an unruly teenagers.

old (revolver, or old rifle) bullets are generally all lead.
modern bullets (auto loaders) are generally lead encased in a copper jacket.

hollow points are just sorta hollow in front so they expand easier.

drywall is not significant.

NorCalLos: Not sure exactly, just what I observed in the .357 "my friend" stole out of a car when we were teenagers. The bullets had blue tips that were not made of whatever "normal" bullets are made of. An older cousin said they were hollow points. Was he/me wrong?

Probably Glaser Safety Slugs. Made specifically not to penetrate.

On that same site there is a test of Glasers through drywall. Glasers went through 6 sheets.

ne2d:
Pair-o-Dice: The original point and click interface.

When it comes to guns, "click" is not a good sound.

Unless you've just emptied your clip...

My (significant other, computer, band, favorite actor, city, gun collection, martial art) is better than your (significant other, computer, band, favorite actor, city, gun collection, martial art).

/that should cover it.

paygun: Here's a more specific example. .45 ACP hollow points going through 7 layers of 3/4" plywood.
Link (new window)

If bullets don't go through walls, how the hell do they go through the bad guy?

Holy crap. Hate to sound like a wuss on the internet, but my heart is racing thinking about what would've happened to my face/skull/brain had my dumb teenage friend not pointed the gun away from my head before pulling the trigger. Life is so fragile sometimes.

paygun: NorCalLos: Not sure exactly, just what I observed in the .357 "my friend" stole out of a car when we were teenagers. The bullets had blue tips that were not made of whatever "normal" bullets are made of. An older cousin said they were hollow points. Was he/me wrong?

Probably Glaser Safety Slugs. Made specifically not to penetrate.

On that same site there is a test of Glasers through drywall. Glasers went through 6 sheets.

So, what exactly would they not penetrate?

NorCalLos: Holy crap. Hate to sound like a wuss on the internet, but my heart is racing thinking about what would've happened to my face/skull/brain had my dumb teenage friend not pointed the gun away from my head before pulling the trigger. Life is so fragile sometimes.

Yeah it's a farked up thought. I bet you wouldn't have felt a thing though. I guess that is sort of comforting, in a really messed up way.

NorCalLos: paygun: Here's a more specific example. .45 ACP hollow points going through 7 layers of 3/4" plywood.
Link (new window)

If bullets don't go through walls, how the hell do they go through the bad guy?

Holy crap. Hate to sound like a wuss on the internet, but my heart is racing thinking about what would've happened to my face/skull/brain had my dumb teenage friend not pointed the gun away from my head before pulling the trigger. Life is so fragile sometimes.

If it indeed was a Glaser your head would have cracked open like a watermelon in the back.

If it is any consolation there would have been a relatively minor entry wound at such a close range. Probably could have done an open casket once they put a styrofoam ball inside the back of your head where your skull and brains used to be and then sewed the flaps of skin over it.

NorCalLos: So, what exactly would they not penetrate?

They're made that way to reduce the chances that they'll penetrate people. So you won't hit the guy behind the guy you shot. They definitely still get the job done.

Ya, my friend (Kevin Nelson) would've been f'd too. This would actually be a pretty sweet plot to a movie with that dude from Pineapple Express. You know, a couple teenagers trying to cover up the accidental shooting of their friend.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: NorCalLos: paygun: Here's a more specific example. .45 ACP hollow points going through 7 layers of 3/4" plywood.
Link (new window)

If bullets don't go through walls, how the hell do they go through the bad guy?

Holy crap. Hate to sound like a wuss on the internet, but my heart is racing thinking about what would've happened to my face/skull/brain had my dumb teenage friend not pointed the gun away from my head before pulling the trigger. Life is so fragile sometimes.

If it indeed was a Glaser your head would have cracked open like a watermelon in the back.

If it is any consolation there would have been a relatively minor entry wound at such a close range. Probably could have done an open casket once they put a styrofoam ball inside the back of your head where your skull and brains used to be and then sewed the flaps of skin over it.

Dude, I'm literally getting a head ache... and I think someone in another cubicle is dicing onions...

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach:
But since you sound like a cop I will assume you know jackshiat about firearms beyond that they are the thing you point an unruly teenagers.

I hate cops-- I am, as my name implies, an anarchist. That said though, I shoot (nearly) every weekend with my buddies, and we've done rounds testing ourselves. Almost invariably, we've found that HP (9, 40, and 45) rounds won't cut through most material, but instead just leaves a nasty ass dent in it. I won't deny that sheer velocity may make it possible for it to cut through material, but a HP cutting through two drywalls, the insulation between, and what I imagine to be an adult sized mattress made in the last 15 or so years? I'm sorry, but that's pushing my understanding of physics and bullets too far.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: If it is any consolation there would have been a relatively minor entry wound at such a close range.

I know a guy who shot himself in the leg with a 1911. The entry wound looked like it was done with a hole punch.

AnarchoJesse: Almost invariably, we've found that HP (9, 40, and 45) rounds won't cut through most material, but instead just leaves a nasty ass dent in it.

Are you talking about real firearms, or airsoft guns? What kind of material, what load, and at what range are you talking about?

AnarchoJesse: Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach:
But since you sound like a cop I will assume you know jackshiat about firearms beyond that they are the thing you point an unruly teenagers.

I hate cops-- I am, as my name implies, an anarchist. That said though, I shoot (nearly) every weekend with my buddies, and we've done rounds testing ourselves. Almost invariably, we've found that HP (9, 40, and 45) rounds won't cut through most material, but instead just leaves a nasty ass dent in it. I won't deny that sheer velocity may make it possible for it to cut through material, but a HP cutting through two drywalls, the insulation between, and what I imagine to be an adult sized mattress made in the last 15 or so years? I'm sorry, but that's pushing my understanding of physics and bullets too far.

The incident occurred right around 15 years ago, but I doubt the age of the mattress makes much of a difference. On a side note, it happened right around the time David Silver's (90210) friend killed himself while playing with his dad's revolver. My nickname was David Silver for a while (cuz none of us knew his friend's name).

paygun: AnarchoJesse: Almost invariably, we've found that HP (9, 40, and 45) rounds won't cut through most material, but instead just leaves a nasty ass dent in it.

Are you talking about real firearms, or airsoft guns? What kind of material, what load, and at what range are you talking about?

Real, actual firearms. My own personal S&W Sigma9, my roommates Beretta .45, and my other friends Taurus Judge. I'm going to have to plea unsure memory on the load type, mostly because we use anything we pull out of the chest that day for shooting practice, so it was a gammut run. Range is approximate to 30 feet, sometimes 50.

The material used was usually scrap metal, old furniture (desks, couches, etc), anything we could get our hands on to blow the shiat out of.

AnarchoJesse: Almost invariably, we've found that HP (9, 40, and 45) rounds won't cut through most material, but instead just leaves a nasty ass dent in it. I won't deny that sheer velocity may make it possible for it to cut through material, but a HP cutting through two drywalls, the insulation between, and what I imagine to be an adult sized mattress made in the last 15 or so years? I'm sorry, but that's pushing my understanding of physics and bullets too far.

Here's a test of 9mm hollow points going through four insulated drywall wall sections:

Link (new window)

You probably shouldn't talk about firearms if your only knowledge of them comes from movies.

AnarchoJesse: Real, actual firearms. My own personal S&W Sigma9, my roommates Beretta .45, and my other friends Taurus Judge. I'm going to have to plea unsure memory on the load type, mostly because we use anything we pull out of the chest that day for shooting practice, so it was a gammut run. Range is approximate to 30 feet, sometimes 50.

The material used was usually scrap metal, old furniture (desks, couches, etc), anything we could get our hands on to blow the shiat out of.

Wow. You're going to end up killing yourselves if you're shooting at random metal objects from 30 feet away.

paygun:
You probably shouldn't talk about firearms if your only knowledge of them comes from movies.

Yeah, I'm not part of GONH or anything. Nor have I owned guns since I was 16.

paygun Quote 2009-03-25 06:06:43 PM

Wow. You're going to end up killing yourselves if you're shooting at random metal objects from 30 feet away.

It's no different than shooting a car door or discarded boiler.

AnarchoJesse: The material used was usually scrap metal, old furniture (desks, couches, etc), anything we could get our hands on to blow the shiat out of.

You know, I bet I know what you're seeing. You shoot a couch end to end or a desk or something like that and it look like the bullet didn't exit because it didn't travel in a straight line after entry. But that doesn't mean it didn't, and it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't have enough power to make it through a piece of furniture.

At any rate, please be careful. If you're shooting at target like that from 30-50 feet you're asking for trouble. There's nothing wrong with going out and blowing shiat up and having some fun, but try to make sure you make it back home.

Most hollowpoint handgun bullets going through things like drywall or cloth will have the cavity plugged with the material and fail to expand at all. They will thus penetrate further in these materials than they would is a more fluid medium (such as a person) which would force them to expand.



Hollowpoints depend on hydraulic pressure to force them to expand.

Bullets such as Federal's expanding full metal jacket work on different principles and will expand from just the force of impact.

paygun: Here's a more specific example. .45 ACP hollow points going through 7 layers of 3/4" plywood.
Link (new window)

Just wanted to say thanks for the link. I am not really a gun person but I found that site fascinating for some reason. I like his scientific approach.

NorCalLos: I was this close to getting shot in the face with a .357 with hollow points when I was a teenager. We thought we had emptied the bullets from the chamber that was next in line and handed it to a friend. He pointed it at my head and I told him not to. He moved it a foot to the side and shot a hole through his bedroom wall, into his dad's room, through his dad's bed and into the floor. Apparently, the barrel rotates counter-clockwise.

I have that same problem with my GF's S&W Model 600... not almost shooting myself just forgetting which way the cylinder rotates) it's kinda embarrassing at the range to pick up your woman's gun, aim, pull the trigger and just hear a "click".

/I only have semi-autos
//1911s and XDs FTW
///.45 ACP ONLY
////.357 Mag is OK if your a girl...

berylman: Just wanted to say thanks for the link. I am not really a gun person but I found that site fascinating for some reason. I like his scientific approach.

It is interesting. He's a cool guy too. His friend he does the testing with (he calls him T-man) passed away recently, which I was really sorry to hear.

m1gunr: on a 1911 model the booger hooker cannot make the bang switch go unless the palm safety is engaged...

Uhhhh that's only on newer 1911s.... the standard design does NOT have a backstrap safety (grip safety)... MINE does, and i think they all SHOULD, but most DON'T. (Only the really high-quality ones do)

maniacbastard: The_Sponge: Hey...just what you see, pal.

Me I'd rather have a reverberating carbonizer with mutate capacity.

NICE reference. WOW.



/Nothing to see here...

MasterYong: m1gunr: on a 1911 model the booger hooker cannot make the bang switch go unless the palm safety is engaged...

Uhhhh that's only on newer 1911s.... the standard design does NOT have a backstrap safety (grip safety)... MINE does, and i think they all SHOULD, but most DON'T. (Only the really high-quality ones do)

Uhh...no.

THe grip safety has always been a part of the M1911 design. It was specifically requested by the Army around the time (1909 )of the pistol trials that led to its adoption.

My great-grandfather's M1911 from 1918 (pre-A1 even. Notice the flat mainspring housing and lack of scalloping behind the trigger) has a grip safety.

AnarchoJesse: NorCalLos: I was this close to getting shot in the face with a .357 with hollow points when I was a teenager. We thought we had emptied the bullets from the chamber that was next in line and handed it to a friend. He pointed it at my head and I told him not to. He moved it a foot to the side and shot a hole through his bedroom wall, into his dad's room, through his dad's bed and into the floor. Apparently, the barrel rotates counter-clockwise.

I call bullshiat.

Hollow points wouldn't blow a hole through a wall-- they'd expand, because what you're describing is what they're supposed to prevent.

I call bullshiat you obviously know next to nothing about firearms. A .357 Magnum JHP will go through the hood, engine block, then out the bottom of a 1993 Ford Ranger pickup truck. I know. I've done it.

/A .357 Mag will go through just about anything, JHP or not, whether you WANT it to or not.

paygun: At any rate, please be careful. If you're shooting at target like that from 30-50 feet you're asking for trouble. There's nothing wrong with going out and blowing shiat up and having some fun, but try to make sure you make it back home.

Don't waste your concern on that dude, he's obviously completely and totally ignorant, and uses outright fabrications as his little fortress to deflect criticism. His posturing may work at the elementary school where he teaches or the Nickelodeon boards he usually posts on, but as you can see they fall pretty flat here.

www.boxotruth.com of course it may be box of truth, I haven't been in a while.

PJMurphy: My Dad taught me the Big Three:

1) A gun is ALWAYS loaded, even when you know it's not.
2) A gun will shoot anything it's pointed at, even if you don't want it to.
3) A gun will kill any living thing it's pointed at, even if you want it to live.

These three rules are all you need to know. This bonehead only broke two of the rules. Now maybe if he was looking down the barrel to see if there was a bullet in the chamber.....

My dad taught me all those rules, and one more:
4) When someone hands you a gun and tells you it's not loaded, it IS loaded. Check the chamber.
He taught me that rule, and a few minutes later he handed me his rifle and said, "It's OK, it's not loaded." Five seconds later, he gently smacked me in the back of the head.
"What was that for?"
"For believing me when I said it's not loaded. Check the chamber."
I still feel that swat whenever I handle a gun... it reminds me that guns are always loaded.

That one has a corollary:
5) When your memory tells you a gun is not loaded, it IS loaded. Check the chamber.
I check my guns, put them in the case, drive to the range, and then check them again when I open the case.

Pair-o-Dice: ne2d:
Pair-o-Dice: The original point and click interface.

When it comes to guns, "click" is not a good sound.

Unless you've just emptied your clip...

...at which point your slide should have locked open. Sorry. No "click"...

MasterYong: ...at which point your slide should have locked open. Sorry. No "click"...

There are plenty of pistols that don't have a slide lock.

Of course, they're mostly pretty crappy ones (like the AMT Backup 380 in my safe) so the point might still stand.

Hrm. I guess hotlinking to a image hosted in the Czech Republic wasn't the best move.

Let's try that again with a different one:

Pointy end?

Irish - lovely people, just don't give them booze.
Middle Easterners - hospitable, warm, Korans turn them into cockmonkeys
Americans - a finer a group of fellows you couldn't hope to meet, just don't let them near guns

AnarchoJesse: NorCalLos: I was this close to getting shot in the face with a .357 with hollow points when I was a teenager. We thought we had emptied the bullets from the chamber that was next in line and handed it to a friend. He pointed it at my head and I told him not to. He moved it a foot to the side and shot a hole through his bedroom wall, into his dad's room, through his dad's bed and into the floor. Apparently, the barrel rotates counter-clockwise.

I call bullshiat.

Hollow points wouldn't blow a hole through a wall-- they'd expand, because what you're describing is what they're supposed to prevent.

You are either ignorant or stupid.

The headline for this thread should have been "Post your outlandishly stupid ideas about firearms here" or something like that.

AnarchoJesse:
I hate cops-- I am, as my name implies, an anarchist. That said though, I shoot (nearly) every weekend with my buddies, and we've done rounds testing ourselves. Almost invariably, we've found that HP (9, 40, and 45) rounds won't cut through most material, but instead just leaves a nasty ass dent in it. I won't deny that sheer velocity may make it possible for it to cut through material, but a HP cutting through two drywalls, the insulation between, and what I imagine to be an adult sized mattress made in the last 15 or so years? I'm sorry, but that's pushing my understanding of physics and bullets too far.


You have insulation between the sheets of drywall in the interior walls of your home? Is that some edgy, against the grain, stick-it-to-the-man new building procedure?

You and your buddies need to do more penetration experiments with something other than each others arses. You clearly don't know guns and ammo.

NorCalLos: So, what exactly would they not penetrate?
Your thin wallet after wasting money on trick ammo. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting with a real round. Frangible ammo is the answer to a question only an idiot would ponder - imagine a straight line through your house/apartment building/orphanage - how many people (besides the target) would it really intersect? Are you willing to use LESS EFFECTIVE ammo, that doesn't actually do the "won't pass through drywall" thing to alleviate your concern? The stuff is ineffective, too expensive to practice with / verify functionality in your autoloader, and hard to obtain.

MasterYong: Uhhhh that's only on newer 1911s.... the standard design does NOT have a backstrap safety (grip safety)... MINE does, and i think they all SHOULD, but most DON'T. (Only the really high-quality ones do)
WUT?
The original 1911 design had the grip safety!
Just because a firearm shoots the .45ACP round does not make it a 1911!


Everyone arguing about what a hollowpoint round will and won't penetrate, do some research before spewing dumb onto the screen:
BALL (FULL METAL JACKET) - any ammunition where the bullet is not designed to deform on impact. The military uses ball ammo, due to reliable feeding, a perception of less tissue damage, and various treaties. Ball ammo is suitable for personal use as target practice ammunition. In some smaller calibers or older firearms, ball ammo is the only reliable thing to shoot, either due to poor penetration or lousy feeding.
HOLLOWPOINT - designed to open and cause more damage when moving through soft material like meat ... you are made of meat, if you didn't know. Hollowpoints are made of various materials, the most common being copper-jacketed lead or solid copper.
FRANGIBLE - Designed to act like ball or hollowpoint ammo until hitting a hard surface, when they should shatter. Most frangible ammo is crap - anything able to hold together when shot from a gun will punch through residential construction with little trouble.
SOFT LEAD - practice ammunition made from cast lead with no jacket.