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(Ars Technica)   Emotiv Systems uses your thoughts to power gaming. Sorry Princess Peach, but your panties are now in another castle   (arstechnica.com) divider line
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2267 clicks; posted to Geek » on 24 Mar 2009 at 8:39 AM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-03-24 08:01:16 AM  
Does that mean people with teh ghey will be better at Kirby?

/NTTAWTT
 
2009-03-24 08:10:10 AM  
What does Princess Peach wear under that dress?
 
2009-03-24 08:47:01 AM  
want
 
2009-03-24 08:58:36 AM  

Plastic Diver Guy: What does Princess Peach wear under that dress?


1up.gif

/no images from work
 
2009-03-24 09:04:31 AM  
I tend to think that this will be buggy as a horse-drawn carriage, but I applaud the effort. Perhaps in a few generations, this technology will be reliable and predictable, able to actually control things with a decent level of reliability.

Then I can worry about figuring out an I/O interface and build a mind/face controlled, 'busa powered go-kart so that paraplegics can tear around terrorizing people like everyone else.

I understand that money and markets drive research, but it's depressing that the first really portable and cheap hands-free controller isn't specifically for the disabled, but for gamers who want both hands free to stuff cheetos into their faces.
 
2009-03-24 09:11:31 AM  

Zerk Schrader: I understand that money and markets drive research, but it's depressing that the first really portable and cheap hands-free controller isn't specifically for the disabled, but for gamers who want both hands free to stuff cheetos into their faces.


Well, it does make a certain amount of sense. The people that are likely to buy this are people with way too much time and money on their hands. They probably have a good job to be able to afford the newest, best, and the coolest, and will buy it just to show it off.

Quadriplegics, typically don't work, and are usually living on some sort of assistance program via the government or private donation system. That, or family. Not saying they can't be useful and productive members of the workforce, of course, but their options ARE fairly limited and you don't often see people in tongue-controlled wheelchairs tooling around the office. Thus, the likelihood of them being able to pay for this new emotive computer system is slim, and the government and private firms don't typically pay for "experimental" items or treatments.

Go where the money is, and hope it trickles down to those who actually NEED it eventually.
 
2009-03-24 09:11:36 AM  
Zerk Schrader: "I tend to think that this will be buggy as a horse-drawn carriage, but I applaud the effort. Perhaps in a few generations, this technology will be reliable and predictable, able to actually control things with a decent level of reliability."

By all reports, it already does. This isn't new technology, it's just consumer EEG.

Based on what I've seen/heard/read, expect to have very limited, but reliable, control. It senses only a linear gradient between focused and unfocused thought, with different 'target thoughts' controlling different axis.

Not good enough to replace a thumbstick yet, but good enough to replace button presses for some game functions.
 
2009-03-24 09:13:43 AM  

Zerk Schrader: I understand that money and markets drive research, but it's depressing that the first really portable and cheap hands-free controller isn't specifically for the disabled, but for gamers who want both hands free to stuff cheetos into their faces.


I don't see it as a purely Cheetoe-eating device, although I'm sure it will be used for that. Hands-free gaming would be a revolution bigger than the jump into three dimensions was. At the moment, you're limited by your input options. You can only do so much with a mouse/keyboard or controller, even if you're fast as a Korean Starcraft player. The input possibilities for thought-controlled gaming are limitless, really.
 
2009-03-24 09:16:26 AM  

emocomputerjock:
1up.gif
/no images from work


Somehow, it's funnier that way. Theater of the mind.
 
2009-03-24 09:16:30 AM  

Plastic Diver Guy: What does Princess Peach wear under that dress?


Thanks to Smash Bros. we know the answer to that.

/at work can't search
//but there is an image somewhere
 
2009-03-24 09:19:16 AM  

Lamune_Baba: Plastic Diver Guy: What does Princess Peach wear under that dress?

Thanks to Smash Bros. we know the answer to that.

/at work can't search
//but there is an image somewhere


I can do you one better and provide a video.

Kotaku will provide.
 
2009-03-24 09:20:48 AM  

Shadowknight: I can do you one better and provide a video.

Kotaku will provide.


Well, crap, I should have actually TRIED the video before I posted that. Video has been removed.
 
2009-03-24 09:21:04 AM  

Zerk Schrader: I understand that money and markets drive research, but it's depressing that the first really portable and cheap hands-free controller isn't specifically for the disabled, but for gamers who want both hands free to stuff cheetos into their faces.


Yikes, the plot of "Angelic Layer" reduced to a single run-on sentence.

Not that it was a good series, mind you (actually it's pretty bad), but the premise of using toys to drive medical research was all too plausible.
 
2009-03-24 09:21:51 AM  
 
2009-03-24 09:22:37 AM  

Shadowknight: Lamune_Baba: Plastic Diver Guy: What does Princess Peach wear under that dress?

Thanks to Smash Bros. we know the answer to that.

/at work can't search
//but there is an image somewhere

I can do you one better and provide a video.

Kotaku will provide.


Removed to to "violation"

/any other links
//gonna go "violate" something else...
 
2009-03-24 09:24:00 AM  

Zerk Schrader: I understand that money and markets drive research, but it's depressing that the first really portable and cheap hands-free controller isn't specifically for the disabled, but for gamers who want both hands free to stuff cheetos into their faces.


It's actually probably a bit better that way. There is nothing more anally retentive and picky than a gamer with too much money on his/her hands. They'll be the first to complain when something isn't completely, 100% perfect.

The other upside is that perfecting this technology on a gaming system is a lot safer than finding out there's a bug in the quadriplegic's car control system as he/she is heading down the highway at 65mph.

/Gamer
//Wish I had too much money on my hands
 
2009-03-24 09:24:49 AM  
Wow, this will change the world, in the same way that voice dictation software, pen-driven computing and virtual reality did.
 
2009-03-24 09:24:50 AM  

Spooge McDuck:

Removed to to "violation"

/any other links
//gonna go "violate" something else...


Look directly above this post. Or here, if you're lazy.
 
2009-03-24 09:27:07 AM  

Bacontastesgood: Wow, this will change the world, in the same way that voice dictation software, pen-driven computing and virtual reality did.


I think this WOULD have a bigger impact than any of those. Imagine putting on a headband and being able to control your house, drive your car, program your DVR, turn on the radio...

Technology is nowhere near that, obviously, but the future is bright.
 
2009-03-24 09:27:19 AM  

Shadowknight: Here, try this one instead.


haha I particularly enjoy the devs' attention to detail on this one.
 
2009-03-24 09:28:52 AM  

Bacontastesgood: Wow, this will change the world, in the same way that voice dictation software, pen-driven computing and virtual reality did.


In the future, you just typed that as fast as you thought it, without using the keyboard.
 
2009-03-24 09:33:17 AM  

Shadowknight: Spooge McDuck:

Removed to to "violation"

/any other links
//gonna go "violate" something else...

Look directly above this post. Or here, if you're lazy.


Hawt.
 
2009-03-24 09:36:44 AM  

Bacontastesgood: Wow, this will change the world, in the same way that voice dictation software, pen-driven computing and virtual reality did.


It's taking more time than hoped, but - for example - voice dictation is still moving along. There are real-world practical *working* applications right now -- voice dialing. And as much as we all complain about it, automated call systems are making progress.

Some things won't be practical - at least not for a bit longer - like the flying car. But it may happen.

The main problem is people who see a glimpse of new technology possibilities and immediately report that we'll all be using that tech in the next five years.

Doesn't work that way.

but tech is coming, always.
 
2009-03-24 09:39:10 AM  

Kierkegaard's Pseudonym: Bacontastesgood: Wow, this will change the world, in the same way that voice dictation software, pen-driven computing and virtual reality did.

In the future, you just typed that as fast as you thought it, without using the keyboard.


Right up until I read your comment, I thought this would be a good tech to have for the masses. Then it hit me:

There's steps that are involved in typing text on a computer. The mind thinks the thought, transmits it to the hands, the text shows up on screen, and then the eyes read the text to makes sure what the mind wanted is actually what was typed.

Each step provides a level of protection over someone saying something completely retarded. Sometimes, the mind stops the thought before it gets to the keyboard. Sometimes, reading things on the screen makes one think "I can't send this, what was I thinking?!".

I can only fear now for the day when these filters are taken away and what is thought is instantly transferred to your screen.

When that day comes, it will be the end of Fark as we know it.

/Weeps for our future
 
2009-03-24 09:48:44 AM  
Fark that golddigging Peach (NSFW language)
 
2009-03-24 09:49:27 AM  
I had the wierdest dream last night. I was walking down my street and there were actually little green mushrooms gliding down the sidewalks.

They even made the 1up sound when someone grabbed one.

/wierd.
//Needs to drink less right before bed...or more, I'm not sure.
 
2009-03-24 10:05:26 AM  
bacontastesgood: "Wow, this will change the world, in the same way that voice dictation software, pen-driven computing and virtual reality did."

But all of those things did change the world, just not in the precise form we expected. Virtual reality, while a consume flop, is the industry standard in the automotive design industry. You can't buy a car built after 1998 that wasn't designed in VR. Pen driven computing gave us the stylus, which gave way to the capacitive touchscreens of our iphones and ipods. Voice recognition can be found in many modern games (All the new Tom Clancy titles on XBox 360) and it figures heavily into every household robot design I've seen so far.

Have you ever seen "Year 1999", I think it was? A film made in the sixties which predicted life in 1999. It had wives using home terminals to order clothing over a CCTV network with cameras pointed at items in the store. While this prediction didn't materialize in the expected form, it successfully presaged internet shopping.

Futurists have a better track record than most think; they simply extrapolate obvious trends, and while they're rarely right about the specifics of form and implementation, they often do accurately predict future technologies.
 
2009-03-24 10:06:43 AM  
Uhh... was Peach 18 when those screenshots were taken?
 
2009-03-24 10:09:43 AM  

Oakenshield: emocomputerjock:
1up.gif
/no images from work

Somehow, it's funnier that way. Theater of the mind.


I disagree. This makes me laugh every time.

s61.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2009-03-24 10:11:56 AM  

Shadowknight:
Go where the money is, and hope it trickles down to those who actually NEED it eventually.


I know this is how these things work, but it still disturbs me in my horrible little heart. At least it's being worked on.

Kierkegaard's Pseudonym:
I don't see it as a purely Cheetoe-eating device, although I'm sure it will be used for that. Hands-free gaming would be a revolution bigger than the jump into three dimensions was. At the moment, you're limited by your input options. You can only do so much with a mouse/keyboard or controller, even if you're fast as a Korean Starcraft player. The input possibilities for thought-controlled gaming are limitless, really.


I'm not entirely sure. I think problems would arise as (for one example) I scream, "Fark you, Peach, you gutter whore!" over and over while playing Mario Kart. I'm not sure if the system could handle that. My thoughts during most games are not of a stable nature, and rarely reflect actual game content. PixelJunk Monsters has nothing to do with cooking, and yet I'm constantly in fear for my horrible, horrible biscuits.

dragonchild:
Yikes, the plot of "Angelic Layer" reduced to a single run-on sentence.


I have no idea what you're referencing, but I think you're right about my inability to write correctly. Thanks for catching that (and I'm not being sarcastic-- I genuinely hate screwing up like that).

Driedsponge:

It's actually probably a bit better that way. There is nothing more anally retentive and picky than a gamer with too much money on his/her hands. They'll be the first to complain when something isn't completely, 100% perfect.

The other upside is that perfecting this technology on a gaming system is a lot safer than finding out there's a bug in the quadriplegic's car control system as he/she is heading down the highway at 65mph.


You have a good point-- the rather anal target market should help with the reliability and accuracy of the controller.

And your second point is quite valid, and why I haven't made anything of the sort. Such a controller remains an ongoing mental project that I work on while I'm bored. I just can't think of controls that would be reliable under sudden, large changes in acceleration. I doubt I ever will, but it's fun to think about.

Hopefully I'll see the day where an ex-hellraiser quad acquaintance of mine can return to a productive life of public nuisance.
 
2009-03-24 10:17:15 AM  
Zamboro:

Your standards for "changing the world" are pretty low. The internet and cell phones changed the world. VR for car design? Seriously? Is that why that industry is doing so well? I guess it changed your world if you design autos.

Further, capacitive touchscreens are simpler and older tech than active digitizers used for tablet pcs.

My point was these things were hyped all to hell as changing our lives dramatically, when it was pretty obvious even at the time that wasn't gonna happen.

Futurists are mostly idiots who are wrong.
 
2009-03-24 10:22:40 AM  
Bacontastesgood: "Your standards for "changing the world" are pretty low. The internet and cell phones changed the world. VR for car design? Seriously? Is that why that industry is doing so well? I guess it changed your world if you design autos."

Yeah, I think the automobile design applications of VR were more world-changing than the videogame applications would've been.

Bacontastesgood: "Further, capacitive touchscreens are simpler and older tech than active digitizers used for tablet pcs."

So what? I only meant to establish descent. "Pen driven computing" did happen, and was the standard in PDAs for quite some time.

Bacontastesgood: "My point was these things were hyped all to hell as changing our lives dramatically, when it was pretty obvious even at the time that wasn't gonna happen."

But it did. It just happened behind the scenes, in industries you have no involvement with.

Bacontastesgood: "Futurists are mostly idiots who are wrong."

I already explained why this isn't the case.
 
2009-03-24 10:30:09 AM  
Mentat
Fark that golddigging Peach (NSFW language)


That's the only acceptable use of that song.
 
2009-03-24 10:32:03 AM  

mofomisfit: Mentat
Fark that golddigging Peach (NSFW language)

That's the only acceptable use of that song.


I've always had a weird soft spot for "The Offspring." Never bought any of their albums, but if "Keep 'em Separated" comes on the radio I turn it up and tend to drive 10 mph faster.
 
2009-03-24 10:41:05 AM  

Shadowknight: mofomisfit: Mentat
Fark that golddigging Peach (NSFW language)

That's the only acceptable use of that song.

I've always had a weird soft spot for "The Offspring." Never bought any of their albums, but if "Keep 'em Separated" comes on the radio I turn it up and tend to drive 10 mph faster.


i95.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2009-03-24 10:49:22 AM  

Zerk Schrader: I understand that money and markets drive research, but it's depressing that the first really portable and cheap hands-free controller isn't specifically for the disabled, but for gamers who want both hands free to stuff cheetos into their faces.


I have seen lots of research lately for thought controlled prosthetics actually had a client who was in the trial for the arms. Also there is new stuff coming with nerve regeneration which I consider even greater news.
 
2009-03-24 10:49:54 AM  
madmann

HA! You know what I meant, damn it...
 
2009-03-24 11:10:58 AM  
Random Guy: "I have seen lots of research lately for thought controlled prosthetics actually had a client who was in the trial for the arms. Also there is new stuff coming with nerve regeneration which I consider even greater news."

The i-Limb, right? I know Deka is still hard at work on the luke arm so I wouldn't expect it to be in trials yet.
 
2009-03-24 11:13:35 AM  
I signed up for their SDK & never touched it... they've got an emulator, and an active community but... meh, I want the real thing.

I think this is going to be best for home automation - perhaps not this specific design, but the idea. Imagine wearing dime-size clip you can stick on your glasses, beard, hair, whatever... and have it control lights, doors, appliances, music, and so forth...

been working on home automation with a co. for a while, using linux, and we've invested in mobile devices that can capture audio "device, lights on" or "device, play dvd, requiem for a dream" "device, move dvd to living room"...

but being able to think that instead of saying it would be so much better

/buying one when they come out
//have to be careful
///or pr0n will turn on every tv in the house
////all the time
 
2009-03-24 11:23:22 AM  

Zerk Schrader: Hopefully I'll see the day where an ex-hellraiser quad acquaintance of mine can return to a productive life of public nuisance.


They could always run amphetamines in their wheelchair, and how hard can it be to beat quadriplegic hippies?

Back on topic, it took the Wii to bring motion as a control mechanism to the living room, something that pre-existed in a very niche way. I would imagine that this controller may well go the same way - it's not going to replace the mouse/keyboard/gamepad entirely, just supplement it or act as a control mechanism for a new set of games.
 
2009-03-24 11:23:23 AM  

Zamboro: Random Guy: "I have seen lots of research lately for thought controlled prosthetics actually had a client who was in the trial for the arms. Also there is new stuff coming with nerve regeneration which I consider even greater news."

The i-Limb, right? I know Deka is still hard at work on the luke arm so I wouldn't expect it to be in trials yet.


I believe it was the i-limb that he had first. It picks up signals from existing muscles if i recall. The trial he is in now actually connects to nerve tissue for the control interface.
 
2009-03-24 11:42:58 AM  
Random Guy: "I believe it was the i-limb that he had first. It picks up signals from existing muscles if i recall. The trial he is in now actually connects to nerve tissue for the control interface."

Yes, it's called targeted reinnervation. Rather than trying to make impossibly fine, dense connections to the motor control center of the brain with hair-thin electrodes, the myoelectric approach salvages the nerves from the old arm and reimplants them in the chest, so that the nerve endings are far apart and their functions already understood. The sensor for the finger reads from the finger nerves, the sensor for the wrist reads from the wrist nerves and so on. The upside to this approach is that there's no 'learning period', the new limb reacts to your attempts to move it in the same way that your original arm did.

The downside is that the implanted nerves also influence chest muscles, causing unsightly contractions whenever you want to flex your finger or something, and of course when you're in the shower and water hits that area of your chest you get intense phantom limb syndrome, as you feel the water hitting your hand/fingers which aren't there.

If what you say is true the next step they're taking is to isolate the nerve endings from the muscle and connect them directly to the prosthetic, which offers the simpler, safer surgery and instant usability of myoelectrics without the associated drawbacks.
 
2009-03-24 11:56:26 AM  
i224.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2009-03-24 12:02:57 PM  

Zamboro: Random Guy: "I believe it was the i-limb that he had first. It picks up signals from existing muscles if i recall. The trial he is in now actually connects to nerve tissue for the control interface."

Yes, it's called targeted reinnervation. Rather than trying to make impossibly fine, dense connections to the motor control center of the brain with hair-thin electrodes, the myoelectric approach salvages the nerves from the old arm and reimplants them in the chest, so that the nerve endings are far apart and their functions already understood. The sensor for the finger reads from the finger nerves, the sensor for the wrist reads from the wrist nerves and so on. The upside to this approach is that there's no 'learning period', the new limb reacts to your attempts to move it in the same way that your original arm did.

The downside is that the implanted nerves also influence chest muscles, causing unsightly contractions whenever you want to flex your finger or something, and of course when you're in the shower and water hits that area of your chest you get intense phantom limb syndrome, as you feel the water hitting your hand/fingers which aren't there.

If what you say is true the next step they're taking is to isolate the nerve endings from the muscle and connect them directly to the prosthetic, which offers the simpler, safer surgery and instant usability of myoelectrics without the associated drawbacks.


I wish I knew more about it. I have no idea who he is working with on it or what stage he is in, but if I hear from him again I will be full of questions about it.
 
2009-03-24 12:32:29 PM  
Samus Aran would never have armor again...
 
2009-03-24 01:36:27 PM  

Zerk Schrader: I have no idea what you're referencing, but I think you're right about my inability to write correctly.


Your grammar's hardly the worst I've seen. Anyway, "Angelic Layer" is an anime/manga by a Japanese quartet of writers known as CLAMP. The story itself, is, well, I sat through it. However, the premise was quite good and very relevant to the thread.

"Angelic Layer" is a fictional game where dolls controlled by neural interfaces fight on a table-sized platform. It's kind of a 3D physical (as opposed to virtual) version of today's fighting video games. The interface and doll were originally intended as experimental prototypes for prosthetics research, but the project ran out of funding. So the inventor adapted his creation into the game "Angelic Layer" to satisfy the investors' ROI demands and get research money flowing again. Of course, this is backstory. The main plot is a mish-mash of rather implausible character interaction and loosely thought-out fight sequences.
 
2009-03-24 02:50:39 PM  
What the interface may look like

gotas2099.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2009-03-24 03:01:11 PM  
i wonder if this thing will be able to tell the difference between "i want to shoot Alyx in the head" and "shoot Alyx in the head!".
 
2009-03-24 03:19:20 PM  

Space_Fetus: What the interface may look like


Man I loved The Matrix!
 
2009-03-24 03:57:50 PM  
Lemon-Lime Malthus: Man I loved The Matrix!

I laughed.
 
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