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(Alternet)   Marches can change American politics   (alternet.org ) divider line 282
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3964 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jan 2003 at 2:54 PM (13 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-01-19 04:26:46 PM  
Tennessee: "it would be like you getting promoted for doing nothing more than killing off all your competitors instead of doing actual work..."

Not a bad idea. Then I could read Fark all day.
 
2003-01-19 04:26:48 PM  
"All the inspectors have found . . ." I love that statement. Part of Scott Ritter's "change of heart (not)" is that the inspections are a joke unless you really go after them without pity. No hesitation. Unexpected movement. Get away from Baghdad. True tear up the house and find that joint type of search. At the rate they are going and if they don't do double and triple backs, they aren't going to find anything for years, and then just by luck.

Take all scientist/engineers out of the country at the same time and complete all interviews before doing anything . . . at least a chance to remain secret. And who thinks that only their families would be threatened, these people don't want to be responsible for the people they don't know in the picture they are being shown as the price for talking. Some of the stuff that we (collectively) are shown and putter about is so farking naive.

Bottom line: the whole situation is much more dangerous, complex and sophisticated than anything I have seen on this thread . . . except maybe for me of course.
 
2003-01-19 04:31:12 PM  
"I'm not saying doing things to get re-elected is a bad thing per-se. But when you're planning on killing 50 000 civillians to do it, that's when things get a tad disreputable, no?"

You yak these numbers around as if they actually represent anything near the truth. Fact is, some egghead pulled them out of the air as an imaginary worst case senario. They are fluffy fistfuls of imagination .
How's this? No civilians will be hurt and all ladies attending receive a complimentary carnation.That is just as credible.
 
2003-01-19 04:32:00 PM  
[image from sabcnews.com too old to be available]
"Heh heh heh. Those of FARK defend me! Splendid!"
 
2003-01-19 04:32:38 PM  
This war isn't about oil...

This war isn't about WMD's...

This war isn't about terrorism...

This war isn't about approval ratings...

This war...

Is a grudgematch... Plain and simple...


Bush:"He tried to kill mah daddy!"

George Walker Bush intends to make Saddam regret the day he ever f*cked with the Bush family. You f*ck with one Bush, you f*ck with them all.

Coming soon to a war theater near you...

GULF WAR 2: GULF WAR WITH A VENGENCE
This time, it's personal...
 
2003-01-19 04:36:53 PM  
See my post, and then see Psychojay's. PERFECT example. FLAWLESS.

He posts that to every farking thread "Iraq" shows up in.
 
2003-01-19 04:37:10 PM  
i wouldn't be suprised if this iraq thing drags out until a few months before the next election, and then bush all of a sudden declares iraq not a threat anymore. no one dies, and bush looks like a peace-keeper. democrats who didnt pay attention are pleased, and republicans continue to blow their load over whatever bush does. i dont think this iraq deal is as much about the oil as it is for popularity.
 
2003-01-19 04:39:57 PM  
Well said, Carl Conrad.
 
2003-01-19 04:42:06 PM  
Number 41
You will not have to wait more than 10-14 days for the big show to start. I'd say a couple days post SOTU address.
 
2003-01-19 04:43:05 PM  
Desertfoxg

"Had a rational discussion with an anti-war protestor lately?"

It's hard to believe you've ever had a rational discussion, period. Very clever use of Ad Hominem's to win that argument by the way.

Why don't you respond to my above post about why it's a war for oil? Let's try and discuss this rationally using sources and valid arguments.
 
2003-01-19 04:45:15 PM  
The link below sez something about using an airliner for training, just happens to be in Iraq, and it wasn't firemen training . . . of course what to believe, what to believe

http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/National_Security/wwwboard/messages/828. html
 
2003-01-19 04:48:56 PM  
Desertfoxg

Fine! Then explain what else it can be about.

WMD's?: There's no direct proof Iraq has them. Korea, Parkistan, and others do but why is Bush mainly focused on Iraq?

Oil?: Why not invade Argentia? Or Saudi Arabia?

Approval ratings?: Isn't the majority against the war? Is Bush attempting political suicide?

Terrorism?: Isn't there a more direct link between al Queada and Saudi Arabia than Iraq? Didn't Saddam and Bin Laden hate eachother?

That only leaves one reason: Bush is nothing more than a traumatized little retard unable to cope with nearly losing his daddy and needs to carry out bloody revenge to feel better. If someone would just haul Jr. to a children's psychologist for counselling, I'm sure he would forget about this war bussiness real quick!
 
2003-01-19 04:49:02 PM  
Ok, I admit total ignorance of the issues surrounding this pending potential war with Iraq.

Can anyone provide me with links to some well-represented arguments for either side?
 
2003-01-19 04:51:15 PM  
"Oil?: Why not invade Argentia? Or Saudi Arabia?" - Psycho-Jay

There is no embargo there. They are free to export.
 
2003-01-19 04:51:44 PM  
Artmerlyn

Don't hold your breath.
 
2003-01-19 04:52:01 PM  
You dumb farks that believe it has nothing to do with oil are dumb farking farks.
------------------------
[World Oil Reserves]
Saudi Arabia: 261,750
Iraq: 112,500
Iran: 97,800
Kuwait: 96,500
-- Source: Oil and Energy Magazine, December 2002

OIL FOR WAR TIMELINE
Year 2000
- Bush Jr., Cheney, & oil corporations planned Iraq invasion before the election (read the "Cheney Energy Report").
- Iraq has 2nd largest oil reserve in world (next is Saudi Arabia)
- Iraq exporting 69% of its oil to US
- Big Oil megafarks and Energy corporations elect U.S. President, Vice President, and staff the Whitehouse with more oil men and women.
- Big Oil gave $26 million to Bush, Cheney & fellow Republicans in the election.
- $33 million in severance pay to Cheney from Halliburton, world's largest oil services company.
- Halliburton sold oil equipment to Iraq after the UN relaxed sanctions two years ago.

Year 2001
- Jan 20, Bush assumes President role in Whitehouse
- In May, Bush puts more sanctions on Iraq
- Iraq turns off oil exports from 69 to 16% for US oil corporations.
- Iraq awards oil contracts to France, China & Russia worth $300 Billion

Year 2002
- October, US declares ad hoc war on Iraq
- Iraq has 112.5 billion barrels of oil reserves.
- Iraq has 22 billion barrels in undiscovered oil reserves.
- Iraq oil reserves estimated to last 128.9 years.
- 4th oil war in the Middle East in 50 years begins.
-------------------------------------
 
2003-01-19 04:53:26 PM  
Worthlessjuan

Wow, that's about as flimsy as evidence gets. They have a picture of an airplane? And a defector claiming to have been involved in training terrorists?

Well the picture obviously proves nothing. And I'm always spectical about defectors. They obviously hate the government they defected from. And they like to make up stories to curry favour with their new government. In this case, I seem to remember that Sabah Khodadad wasn't even taken seriously by the CIA.

An interesting theory, but no smoking gun.
 
2003-01-19 04:55:06 PM  
Artmerlyn

I can't speak for the Right-Wing, but I'll dig you up some good lefty articles, gimme a sec.
 
2003-01-19 04:55:12 PM  
Carl Conrad

Argentia oil workers are currently on strike. The argentian faucet has been shut off. Perfect time to engineer another coup and/or invade. But why Iraq? Argentia's a lot closer.
 
2003-01-19 04:55:38 PM  
What is there to any argument?

It is plain and simple; If you are a Democrat, you are against whatever Bush does. If Bush loves puppies, then you have to hate puppies, it's as simple as that.


And no, the majority of Americans, 71% are for invading Iraq if Saddam doesn't comply with the UN Resolutions, and 25% are for letting Saddam do whatever he wants.
 
Mac
2003-01-19 04:55:58 PM  
I'm marching right to the fridge for a beer.
 
2003-01-19 04:56:20 PM  
I love all of this farking stuff. Protests never do anything but give CNN and NPR something to cover(reads liberal media). The only time any protests managed anything was during Vietnam. Look at all of those PETA morons, KKK rallies, "smell fests" (ie tree hugger rallies), oh yeah the greatest protest ever the WTO protests. The WTO protest sure did help! What is it about liberal wakos!

The funniest thing is... If the US wasn't after Saddam for WMD then every "protester" in the US would be after the US to help with all the " Human Rights violations ". DO I need to remind you all about Bosnia and China - Oh yeah I'm sorry that was during "Slick Willie's" presidency and he was a god right!

But that is just my opinion... you could be wrong!
 
2003-01-19 04:56:43 PM  
Psycho-Jay

Argentina has been shut down for months, not years. Not to mention that you'll never be able to make a case for invading Argentina, but it's pretty damn easy to do with Iraq.
 
2003-01-19 04:56:43 PM  
Desertfoxg

"Had a rational discussion with an anti-war protestor lately?"

That's a rhetorical question. You can't have a rational discussion with an anti-war protester. They are clueless about what's going on in the world and that's a fact. If they realized what is going on in Iraq and Iran, what those governments are doing to their own people they'd be demanding that the marines be sent in.

They honestly think it's about oil, they don't even realize that Iraq invaded Kuwaite because Iraq doesn't have shiat for oil. If it was for oil we'd be invading South America.

All the anti war protesters want is to show the world that they are:

1) Concerned for their own well being (cowardess)
2) Able to swallow anything a liberal sticks down their throat
3) Perfactly willing to let the brown people of the world slaughter each other, as long as we protect the whites like in Bosnia - the GOOD war.(Read: The Clinton war)
 
2003-01-19 04:58:03 PM  
"Oil?: Why not invade Argentia? Or Saudi Arabia?"

I don't think a puppet government in Saudi Arabia could do anything better than the current regime in regards to giving the US oil. Argentina is 97% white (Spanish and Italian) and 94% Christian, far different from our percieved image of a terrorist.

It is simply a lot easier to attack Iraq than other countries, currently there is a lot of racism in regards to Arabs and there are also lots of anit-Islam things going around. Iraq is on our "Axis of Evil" and frankly it is easier because Saddam IS a bastard. But someone being a bastard doesn't justify war.

It also upsets me that Bush is trying to gain support in the fundamentalist department by declaring everyone to be "evil". I'd be inclined to agree, but keep religion out of our god damn wars.

Scroll up and read ThreeLittleSmurfs's excellent post regarding the "How is the war for oil" question. That pretty much is my opinion on the war.
 
2003-01-19 04:59:00 PM  
JQPublic

I'm a dem (kinda) and I'm not necessarily against the war.
 
2003-01-19 04:59:22 PM  
Hey, ThreeLittleSmurfs and everyone, I said "what to believe" at least twice. It seems a whole lot more plausible than saying the two guys hate each other and would never mix business with pleasure when it comes to a somewhat common goal. Some of the best intel in history comes from defectors.
 
2003-01-19 04:59:39 PM  
on that note, Canada has alot of oil, why don't we invade Canada?

Because the oil that Canada has is harder to extract. I forget exactly what's mixed in with it or where the oil is located, but it costs double or triple the amount to extract than "regular" oil. Of course I blame Bush and company (who all just happen to be oil men, there is ABSOLUTELY NO connection... *ahem*) for beign tight wads. People say Saddam finances terrorism? So do oil companies owned by people in the administration.
 
2003-01-19 05:01:26 PM  
Carl Conrad

Not to mention that you'll never be able to make a case for invading Argentina, but it's pretty damn easy to do with Iraq.

But then why all the contraversey? Why are so many people claiming it's about oil anyway? Bush is a sh*tty liar so "making a case" is pretty much a moot point.
 
2003-01-19 05:01:36 PM  
If this is representative of the anti-war arguments you should be ashamed of yourselves. Pathetic warblings of half-baked ideas and regurgitated nonsense.
Repeat your twaddle aloud in 2 or 3 weeks and prepare yourself to be shouted down as the cowardly, foolish, procrastinators you are.
 
2003-01-19 05:01:57 PM  
Well, the time-honored tactic is working well for the Bush and the ruling elites. The foreign "problem" is deflecting the masses' attention from problems within America.
 
2003-01-19 05:03:22 PM  
Any discussion of the middle east is incomplete without hearing from Robert Fisk.

A well-written article by John Le Carré.

You should read about the UN Report that predicts a tradgedy for the Iraqi population. Also, there's another report you should read about.

shiat, I've got to run, but that should give you an intorduction.
 
2003-01-19 05:05:10 PM  
ThreeLittleSmurfs

Thanks!
 
2003-01-19 05:06:19 PM  
All of you who thought that you were living in a democratic Republic--You were wrong. Those of you who thought that we live in a republican Democracy--you were wrong too. We now live in a rapidly developing Fascist state.

Surprise, surprise...

The people get the Government they deserve.
 
2003-01-19 05:07:43 PM  
FifthColumn - Canada is the #1 oil exporter to the U.S. as well. Why invade a friend to get the oil they're already giving us?

Psycho-Jay - Because it's about oil but Bush can't say that. Instead, he'll use all kinds of reasons that are valid to make his case. If oil wasn't invloved, he would'nt give a shiat about the Iraqi people or WMD - at least not enough to go to war over it.
 
2003-01-19 05:10:42 PM  
Ok, this is kind of a stupid question since I don't have many facts to work with but....

Supposing the war with Iraq really was about oil, and America is very dependent on oil, why wouldn't it serve our purposes to get Saddam Hussein out of there? Isn't he also cruel to his own people, those who oppose him?
 
2003-01-19 05:13:04 PM  
Well, I was just replying to Robbie. Only reason I could think of is to get more, since they aren't really tapping what they could be.
 
2003-01-19 05:16:26 PM  
Artmerlyn-Would you be willing to give up your child's life so that the oil companies will take a higher cut of the profits?
 
2003-01-19 05:16:32 PM  
Carl Conrad

Ya'know, if Bush was more honest about his personal vendettas and agendas, I'd actually respect him more. Sure, it would prove once and for all that Jr. is a selfish bastard who cares about no one but himself and the economy but at least we could give him credit for being honest.
 
2003-01-19 05:19:01 PM  
Psycho-Jay

I agree completely.
 
2003-01-19 05:19:22 PM  
Well, ThreeLittleSmurfs, checking out your suggested links, nuf said. Evidence? At least there is a picture provided by a disinterested party.

Again, what to believe????
 
2003-01-19 05:19:26 PM  
These aren't anti-war marches, they're anti-Bush marches.

AlleyKat
 
2003-01-19 05:19:42 PM  
"Only if the ones doing the marching are armed. No one ever stopped anything by begging."



- Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez, etc. etc... The pro-war argument is notorious for being ignorant of history (as Fark demonstrates), but this little endorsement of anti-war violence is troubling.




"Where were the marches when Clinton had his bombing campaign in Bosnia?"


- I don't know where the hell you were, but where I live there were marches against this. As many marches? No, but that is to be expected, considering Bosnia was not a massive invasion, like Iraq is supposed to be.




Each time you buy oil, you are probably aiding Middle-eastern countries that aren't very fond of America. This fact is less trivial than the drugs---terrorism bit. Please also remember - very few senators (from any party) voted against the Iraqi invasion. Despite what Rush Limbaugh says, there is not a whole lot of diversity of opinion in congress.
 
2003-01-19 05:22:01 PM  
There is no other explanation. ThreeLittleSmurfs is a plant to discredit the so-called anti-war movement.No one can seriously be that obtuse.
 
2003-01-19 05:23:01 PM  
Sunwalk

To answer your question, no I wouldn't.

Another question:
Since I don't know much about oil companies, who are they, where are they, and what are they doing that makes them different than any other company out to survive?
 
2003-01-19 05:31:48 PM  
What a COMPLETE waste of time....
 
2003-01-19 05:31:58 PM  
RobbieFal : "and for the record, I'm a Democrat. I'm just against idiots and misguided people. And I won't vote for Lieberman or Hillary."

Why won't you vote for Lieberman? he just reversed himself on almost everything he's ever said on Tim Russert this morning. He now is toeing the democrat party line. All dems should vote for him.
 
2003-01-19 05:32:26 PM  
Gotta go.

Later everyone.
 
2003-01-19 05:33:29 PM  
Anyone ever hear the Stalin quote about "useful idiots"? I've actually been to Iraq, on business, pre-kuwait and as a soldier. We should pave this country. The whold firgging country needs a colonic.
 
2003-01-19 05:36:01 PM  
all you dumbasses that talk about "where were the marches against clinton" are either forgetful or dumb.

these idiots aren't anti bush or clinton or right or left.

they are just the same lame-o gang that marches agaisnt the WTO, or whatever is going on at the moment.
 
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