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(MyFox Champaign)   Church counsels woman who is "living in sin," promises to keep her confessions confidential. Just kidding, they're going to tell the entire congregation next month   (myfoxchampaign.com) divider line 209
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15504 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Dec 2008 at 11:54 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-12-20 02:53:02 AM
Serves her right, the brazen hussy.
 
2008-12-20 02:55:54 AM
ykarie: Yes, it is. Just have to find the right legal clause for the state.

Thank you
 
2008-12-20 02:59:44 AM
Proctologist Iggy Poop: I refuse to get into a debate with you about the words of Christ, since the recording of them was inaccurate, at best.

We know what he said, since at very least the Gospel of Mark was written within living memory of Christ. In the early church the "good news" was an oral tradition, as the persecuted sect met in secret in small groups in private homes. Historians have a useful methodology for determining the authenticity of ancient written sources. One is to look at consistency. Another is to look at context, in particular historical and social context. Still another is to compare various sources and determine which more recent source may have been derived from an earlier source.

However, all of this is really just an academic exercise. The words of Christ, the "red letter" gospels are short and fairly consistent among the gospels. Christs message was not complicated nor was it concerned with philosophical niceties.

Reduced to basics it was: Love one another. Forgive and be forgiven. Share what you have. Don't worry about piling up wealth in this world but appreciate the things you have while you are here. Be charitable. Be humble. Obey the law of God and the law of the society in which you live. See the wonder of the world through the eyes of a child. If you transgress then repent and you will be forgiven. You can sin in your heart without committing an overt act. Look to the spirit of the law not its letter. It is not necessary to sacrifice in the temple or bow to priests. You can know God directly without such intercession. This last bit did not go over very well with the Sanhedrin or the Roman puppet King and ultimately led to the martyrdom of Jesus of Nazareth.

Very simple.
 
2008-12-20 03:06:59 AM
ykarie: Florida Ed: Is that legally defined somewhere?

Yes, it is. Just have to find the right legal clause for the state.


I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure those laws are in place to protect the priest from being compelled to violate confidentiality; they don't actually impose a duty to maintain confidence. In other words, they say that a priest can't be forced to testify, but they don't explicitly require the priest to always keep his mouth shut.

/very well may be wrong
 
2008-12-20 03:13:04 AM
Oh that is just silly. She's middle aged FFS. This may sound terrible, but really, does the congregation want to hear about her sex life? Ok, if she was a 20 year old Co-Ed I could see it, but..
 
2008-12-20 03:25:46 AM
jaxwally: Follow up (new window)

FTNFAThe pastor, the Rev. T. Scott Christmas, said Thursday he disconnected his telephone because he had received a lot of calls on the issue.

So, they did not wish their private behavior, which is no one else's business, to become public. Interesting.

FTNFAThe church's own two-sentence statement issued Thursday says in part that officials are "simply trying to handle this matter, like all membership matters, in accordance with our understanding of God's Word, the Bible."

Understand harder, assholes.
 
2008-12-20 03:27:45 AM
Samsaran: Proctologist Iggy Poop: I refuse to get into a debate with you about the words of Christ, since the recording of them was inaccurate, at best.

We know what he said, since at very least the Gospel of Mark was written within living memory of Christ.

Possibly...
I don't generally agree with you, Samsaran, but you do know your Christian theology.

I'm more Roman than Catholic, much more so. A left-over Stoic; not so much anti-Christian as pre-Christian. In any case, I'm sure that your beliefs are sincere, and I'd be the last to question your faith. We just happen to "live on different sides of the street."

Especially with regard to the matter of unlimited forgiveness, which is my greatest (and most entrenched) disagreement with the Christian tradition(s). To me, some human acts are not forgivable, and not even Jesus himself has ever been able to convince me of that.

I mean, are Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot all enjoying eternal bliss? If so, then something's the matter with the whole setup.

Have a Merry Christmas... really!

PIP
 
2008-12-20 03:28:50 AM
Proctologist Iggy Poop: Bloody Romans! What have they ever done for us?

You mean aside from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health?
 
2008-12-20 03:30:08 AM
Florida Ed: Thank you

Sorry I can't be more specific then the wiki article. I can't seem to find Florida statutes online tonight.

MrPerfectSU: I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure those laws are in place to protect the priest from being compelled to violate confidentiality; they don't actually impose a duty to maintain confidence. In other words, they say that a priest can't be forced to testify, but they don't explicitly require the priest to always keep his mouth shut.

/very well may be wrong


You probably are correct. In fact, I can find a few rulings that say in some states, you are spot on. However, since I'm not a lawyer I have the option of speaking about how it would make more sense. Really, priests have more power in this then doctors, a doctor is only required to speak about a patient if they pose an immediate threat to someone. With that, they should have a greater responsibility to protect their followers.

Laws, who said they had to make sense in the first place.
 
2008-12-20 03:36:42 AM
Proctologist Iggy Poop: Have a Merry Christmas... really!

Thank you, and you too my friend.
 
2008-12-20 04:28:31 AM
FTA: I told them, I cannot believe you people are doing this.

Of course, this has never happened before, you are the first person to discover that church isn't butterflies and hand holding.
 
2008-12-20 04:42:59 AM
Bonus Trivia

In the early church there was no priesthood. "Bishops" a Greek term with a meaning similar to "mayor", were elected, on a rotating basis, from among the congregation. He was not an authority but more of a group leader. There were no churches or cathedrals and the parishioners met in homes or shops on an alternating basis. There was no "Christian" Bible just the Torah and the oral tradition of Christ's lessons and acts. Since there was no priesthood "confession" was made and "witnessed" among the congregation. It was a sort of "group" confession with members standing up and confessing sins and receiving absolution from the congregation.

Does any of this sound familiar? This is the same organizational model and process used in Alcoholics Anonymous today. Leaders elected, informal small meetings and group confession. It is no coincidence. Bill Wilson built his organization based on the tenets of the Oxford Group, a "first century" organization of the early 20th century which sought to hearken back to the days of the early church.
 
2008-12-20 04:43:06 AM
Samsaran: The words of Christthe Gospels of Matthew and John themselves were the comment.

Easy mistake to make, I know.
 
2008-12-20 04:43:48 AM
I almost fell for one these types of churches. They tend to reach out to the community with interesting programs or lectures in public places like the library. Usually the leader will conduct the seminar/lecture/workshop and it will be non religious. I attended a program about dream interpretation in regards to Carl Jungs theories for example. Then during the lecture, they begin to talk about what more you could expect from them and to learn about this topic but the meetings will now be in their church or at a member's home. So, I started attending these meetings and they started to get slowly more and more religious until the group started telling me how to live, what to believe in etc The "leader" began to get very hostile with me when I disagreed on some points and so on.
I quit going and learned about Jung like everyone else, from the internet.

This woman probably was a lonely, single mother and found the church very warm, welcoming and accepting. Then she got the boyfriend, discussed the relationship with a confidante who judged her and couldn't seperate that. Why this woman didn't just go to Planet Oprah to get her support from strangers in advice forums like the rest of us do, is beyond me. Maybe she wanted to make the right decisions by going by what the church taught.

So, now she is getting publically skewered and she beats them to the punch by going public herself but she worries for her kids? Well, get the kids out and into another church if you worry so much. This is Florida, we have churches on every corner, just pick one and go. Better yet, pit the churches against each other and have a holy war....yea, that's it. Just kidding. I truly think the kids should get out of there and not subject themselves to hearing how bad their mother is. The church will go onto someone else eventually and forget about her.
 
2008-12-20 04:52:05 AM
UNC_Samurai: What, the sin of being hit with the ugly stick?

Hey now, while her knees are a bit too sharp for a young stud such as myself, she looks pretty good for her age, which is what, 49?
 
2008-12-20 04:52:21 AM
Z1P2: Blackmail is criminal. Blackmail doesn't have to be for money, it can be to force someone to do something, like meet with the church elders.

I think for it to be blackmail it would have to be a formal letter.

www.lifeintheoffice.com
 
2008-12-20 04:55:30 AM
the lord god: Defamation and emotional stress against a church she was a willing member of. I really do not see where legally much can be done for her. This is how this church works and she was aware of that. In the future she should maybe read the fine print better. But I can't see any court allowing a suit here.

What fine print? I doubt she signed a contract. She chose to terminate a relationship with this abusive and manipulative organisation. They reacted with blackmail: Do as we tell you, or we'll reveal an embarassing secret. That's the definition of blackmail. Ain't that a felony?
 
2008-12-20 05:01:34 AM
ninjakirby: Easy mistake to make, I know.

Believe or not believe as you will it does not matter.

The gospels were not written in a vacuum. They were simply the oral tradition of the teachings of Jesus Christ written down for the benefit of the growing Church. There was an unbroken chain of human memory and as time passed and with the growth of the Church living memory began to fade and scholars wrote the traditions down. Mark was written in Aramaic within living memory of Christ very likely by men who heard him preach. The others were written subsequently from the various oral traditions which came down in an unbroken chain of human memory and voice from Christ's sermons in Galilee and Jerusalem to the First century churches of the Roman world.

It is a modern conceit to discount oral histories. However, all of the Torah was similarly written as a codification of a centuries old oral tradition. So, in fact, were the Iliad and the Odyssey. Also, the stories which later became the Arthur legend, Parsifal, the Vedas of India, the Bahavagad Gita, the ancient Nordic stories, and many others. In fact, until very recently, and still today in some pre-literate societies all knowledge was contained in the oral tradition transmitted by elders, bards and troubadours.
 
2008-12-20 05:11:22 AM
the lord god: Press what charges? This seems to be the way the church works. While wrong it does not seem to be criminal.

I'm no expert, but I would imagine that it would be fairly easy to get an injunction since the legal relationship between her and the church has ended. Since she is no longer a member of the church, it would be hard to justify the cost to her privacy. I really don't see the church hiring a lawyer and trying to fight their way through an injunction just to publicly shame her.
 
2008-12-20 05:15:36 AM
ThematicDevice: Atypical Person Reading Fark: Well I haven't quite figured that out. Blackmail by threat to defame character?

well from the Floridian Law

836.05 Threats; extortion.--Whoever, either verbally or by a written or printed communication, maliciously threatens to accuse another of any crime or offense, or by such communication maliciously threatens an injury to the person, property or reputation of another, or maliciously threatens to expose another to disgrace, or to expose any secret affecting another, or to impute any deformity or lack of chastity to another, with intent thereby to extort money or any pecuniary advantage whatsoever, or with intent to compel the person so threatened, or any other person, to do any act or refrain from doing any act against his or her will, shall be guilty of a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

I'd say that qualifies.


THAT pretty much covers the "legal" part of it, especially since they decided to do it even after she LEFT the church.

While she was still there it would have fallen under "church law"
and nothing would have been done by the state "change this and you will be allowed to stay with the church" is a common form of KEEPING a member.

I have NO doubt that anything she said to the church member in private she thought was private (especially if there is no "confessional area")
THAT plus her being "shocked" when she went into the room and all these women started to harp on her,especially about things that SHE never talked to any of them about(if she ever had talked to them)

As for the "outing/sins" etc. the kids of COURSE know she is living with this guy, but I doubt that is all she talked about.

Imagine she had come from a church that talked about everything OTHER than missionary was a sin, so she goes and talks it out with this "person" who is now ready to dish all the dirt on her

Would you like to be sitting in church and hear that your mother does "all types of things.. and HERE THEY ARE!!"

If it was just that the person was going to say that she was living in sin with someone who was NOT a member (Not sure which was worse in the article, I THINK if he had been a member then
living together would have been tolerated) Then I don't think she would have been concerned AS much for what will be said since they ARE 18 and 20.

I'm not usually for going after church people (usually ignore even the worst) THESE people deserve an investigation into EVERY leaders life, as well as those who are in charge of anything (if they DO this then I would also cover it to every member that does NOT walk out, and condemn it)
 
2008-12-20 05:57:38 AM
She should just bang the ministers. That'll shut them up.
 
2008-12-20 06:06:46 AM
fark them all. you don't need to confess your sins to a man.
confess them to God directly. take the middle man out of it.
if you're sincere and contrite then all is forgiven.

If you believe that is. Personally I think it's all a bunch of hooey cooked up by church elders to keep track of their "sheep".

All you need is resolution. Something that allows you to forgive yourself. Clear your conscience. You can do that without anyone else's help.
 
2008-12-20 06:11:40 AM
Here's a solution: get your head out of your ass and get your ass out of that church, lady!
 
2008-12-20 06:14:41 AM
You know things have got to be bad in that church if she thinks she will get better publicity from Fox News.

Could that pastor really be any worse than Sean Hannity?
 
2008-12-20 06:23:12 AM
The first thing I thought of was the big mouthed rabbi Glickman in Seinfeld, who blabbed about Elaine being jealous on this T.V. show, and spread her talk with him over Jerry's building.
 
2008-12-20 06:25:47 AM
Midnight_Sun: You Americans and your crazy ass churches....

If I make a confession to my (Catholic) priest I know for a fact the man will never speak a word of it to anyone. He may try to molest me...but he'd be farking discreet in the process.


Huh. Maybe that's why Catholic priests don't tell about confessions. They're afraid the parishoners may drop a dime on some of their sexual proclivities.
 
2008-12-20 06:46:07 AM
Could she have a case to sue the congregation too?
 
2008-12-20 07:23:33 AM
"But you are right about the sanctity of the confessional. If you reveal a secret to a professional priest, reverend, or pastor with the understanding that your confession is private, the professional can be sued for violating a confidence if they blab"

Another "Expert" I presume? The Jehovah's Witnesses normally take confessions, then run all the info up the flagpole to Corporate to discuss the appropriate punishment. If a Member is expelled or censured, then the announcement is made publically during one of the five weekly mandatory services.
 
2008-12-20 07:57:05 AM
It sounds like this church needs some Jewish lightening.
 
2008-12-20 08:10:42 AM
GWShenlong05
From the Book of John, chapter 8:

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."


You didn't finish the story. Typical. All you want to do is show your viewpoint. Here's THE REST OF THE STORY:

8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. FROM NOW ON SIN NO MORE." (Emphasis mine.)

Jesus did not come (the first time) to condemn, but to save. Yet He recognized the lady's sin and told her DON'T DO IT ANYMORE. God is serious about sin and He laid out guidelines in dealing with it in a church setting in the Bible. This church is following those guidelines. The woman living in sin has a message from Jesus: 'FROM NOW ON SIN NO MORE."
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment . . . ." Hebrews 10:26-27a
 
2008-12-20 08:19:29 AM
I think my solution would work the best. The woman should get one of those annoying air horns you hear at sporting events. Then, whenever the preacher is about to say her name, give a few loud blasts to drown him out.
 
2008-12-20 08:19:54 AM
Lawnchair
Forty-Two: This part of the article: "...a three-step process used by the church to deal with sinners: private admonishment, admonishment in the presence of witnesses and finally public admonishment," is taken directly from the Bible.

Old Testament, yes.


No. New Testament. Matthew 18:15-16: (THESE ARE THE WORDS OF JESUS) "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, TELL IT TO THE CHURCH; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."
This was when Jesus was speaking to his twelve disciples.
 
2008-12-20 08:25:53 AM
Atypical Person Reading Fark
How come people can't read the Bible?
Jesus said in Matthew 18: 15 - 17:
"If your brother sins against you....


Yeah, how come people can't read the Bible? Matthew 18:15: "If your brother sins, go and show him . . . .yada, yada, yada." Not "sins against you" but "sins."
 
2008-12-20 09:58:07 AM
I don't know if the link is farked or what, but when I went to the site, there was just the headline, and post date...looks like the article's been taken down
 
2008-12-20 10:25:18 AM
The story is also found here.

Link
 
2008-12-20 10:45:19 AM
Samsaran: Christs message was not complicated nor was it concerned with philosophical niceties.

Reduced to basics it was: Love one another. Forgive and be forgiven. Share what you have. Don't worry about piling up wealth in this world but appreciate the things you have while you are here. Be charitable. Be humble. Obey the law of God and the law of the society in which you live. See the wonder of the world through the eyes of a child. If you transgress then repent and you will be forgiven. You can sin in your heart without committing an overt act. Look to the spirit of the law not its letter. It is not necessary to sacrifice in the temple or bow to priests. You can know God directly without such intercession. This last bit did not go over very well with the Sanhedrin or the Roman puppet King and ultimately led to the martyrdom of Jesus of Nazareth.

Very simple.


Hey! That would be a great basis for a religion! Some group of people should get together and try living by those rules sometime. I wonder what they could call it? It obviously can't be called "Christianity", as that one's taken.

/Atheist.
//Have met individuals who live this way, and respect them greatly.
///Have never, ever seen any "church" that was even remotely close. Some start with that paragraph, but then add 100 pages of worthless dogma supporting the prejudices of the leadership and congregation. :(
 
2008-12-20 11:03:42 AM
the lord god: Press what charges? This seems to be the way the church works. While wrong it does not seem to be criminal.

Extortion/Blackmail. The information about the person is not material. That fact that they threaten to release that information unless this person complies could be interpeted as Blackmail.
 
2008-12-20 11:10:22 AM
Next week's sermon:

"Dear Penthouse..."
 
2008-12-20 11:10:55 AM
undflickertail: She is 49 years old, what do they care about her sex life? She is more than old enough to make her own decisions about sex.

At 49 if I was getting any I would not be hiding it, I being telling everyone.

//Even in the church
//with a bullhorn from the rectory
///standing on one of the fat choir women.
 
2008-12-20 11:47:10 AM
How can this public admonition continue? If the lady sent a letter to the church saying she quit, then the pastor / elders are just being mean. Maybe slander or defamation wouldn't fit, unless they embellish things... or get just One teenie, tiney, thing incorrect.

It's time for Ms. Handcock to begin playing hardball with this bible thumper and his zealous minion. A lawyer might have some good ideas, and I would hope that Ms. Handcock could get a recording of what is said on Jan. 4th.
 
2008-12-20 11:51:30 AM
It's almost like you shouldn't be telling your secrets to morally bankrupt people.
 
2008-12-20 12:00:12 PM
Why the hell should ANYONE get married? Ok well I can see it for women since in our culture they get to keep everything the man brings into the relationship. Sanctity of marriage? Give me a farking break, there is no sanctity, only bullshiat.

If gays and lesbians wanna fark up their lives by getting married let em. Oh wait maybe that is why the fundies and right wing is so against letting them do that. Who is the one who gets everything, and how do you prove who the bottom is when they are same gender...farking repressive asshats who want to impose their puritanism and hangups on everyone else, religious nut jobs are as bad as gun grabbers, global warming believers, pedophiles, and anyone who wants a bigger government.

/My brother hangs out with Fred Phelps
//My other brother and I are veterans
///Going to be a fun Christmas next week
 
2008-12-20 12:33:49 PM
kashyyk muffdiver loves taco sauce: satan: "did that happen in one of his movies..."

no - I could just completely see it going that way in his satire
It would be a really funny twist

completely heretical, but funny


Mel Brooks was beaten to it by Robot Chicken.

[Man strung up to a post, ready to be stoned. Jesus walks up.]

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

[Men with stones slowly drop them from guilt. Jesus reveals rock hidden behind his back and smacks the man with it.]

Blammo!
 
2008-12-20 12:59:47 PM
This just serves to further underscore that there is more evil and stupidity accomplished in the names of the various cosmic sky muffins than good and intelligence.
 
2008-12-20 01:20:12 PM
anarchy_x: If you're not part of the church and don't have contact with the members, why would you care what they say about you, let alone have it printed in the newspaper?

Principles.
 
2008-12-20 01:22:50 PM
tony41454: Atypical Person Reading Fark
How come people can't read the Bible?
Jesus said in Matthew 18: 15 - 17:
"If your brother sins against you....

Yeah, how come people can't read the Bible? Matthew 18:15: "If your brother sins, go and show him . . . .yada, yada, yada." Not "sins against you" but "sins."


You're using one of those "translated from old English into Southern English but never referencing the original" translations.

Do you know what language that passage was written in? I'm curious.

The King James translation was much closer to the original.
 
2008-12-20 03:11:37 PM
Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: And by going this route, she has now exposed her kids to the same comments, but courtesy their fellow classmates instead.

What sort of Dark Age morality based college do you go to where a mother having a happy relationship would get her labeled a harlot by fellow classmates?
 
2008-12-20 03:59:37 PM
Samsaran: Mark Twain. He is an interesting choice for an atheist poster boy. A man who never really had any faith of his own yet who relished the stability and calm his wife's devout faith brought to his family. Yet, after years of listening to Sam, his wife Libby began to question her own faith and then, after the untimely death of her daughter, she lost it all together and that peace and comfort never returned. Sam Clemens never forgave himself for this and considered it is darkest sin.

Do you have any areas of actual disagreement with the content of the quotation?

<crickets> ... </crickets>

I figured as much.
 
2008-12-20 04:44:46 PM
GWShenlong05: From the Book of John, chapter 8:

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."


i231.photobucket.com
 
2008-12-20 04:45:53 PM
The text of today's sermon is "the woman taken in adultery", to be followed by the popular hymn "Rock of Ages".

Hymn-singing will be followed by a stoning.

Jehovah.
 
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