Didn't read whole thread. So this is probably was already noted:

Up until the late 19th century, pennies and nickels weren't legal tender at all. The Coinage Acts of 1873 and 1879 made them legal tender for debts up to 25 cents only, while the other fractional coins (dimes, quarters, and half dollars) were legal tender for amounts up to $10. This remained the law until the Coinage Act of 1965 specified that all U.S. coins are legal tender in any amount. (snopes)

/Also thought there was a 25 cent limit.

MaxxLarge: These stupid cops shouldn't be grievin'.
He didn't want to be deceivin'.
Though surely, it's funny,
The penny's still money.
Now THIS is change I can believe in.

Keep this up. Golf clap

So then your tax refund can be paid in pennies? Your Unemployment Insurance? Come off it. The guy gets no sympathy from me at all. Public agencies aren't equipped to deal with large amounts of pennies, any more than they may or may not be equipped to deal with PayPal, Mastercard, lira, euros, etc. Holding them to the strict implications of one single sign isn't noble freedom-fighting. It's being an annoying self-important twerp.

The paying in pennies is so farking unoriginal and unlikely to solve anything or even affect the city in any way, but in a system where the appeals process is so prohibitive since it invariably involves taking time off work and giving up wages, the cost of a lawyer and other costs, I can understand it as a small personal protest for the abusive one sidedness of the system.

In short the city should have taken the guy's pennies, been happy they got his money, STFU, and gone about their business taking other people's money.

Make him write his driver's license number on the rolls of pennies.

That way we'll know who paid their fine in rolls of pennies and won't get shafted.

After all, people pay off their fines in rolls of coins constantly. Especially in a metropolis as big as ours.

Burning_Monk: dls: Typical government trying to nickel and dime you.

We need change we can believe in.


YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

something everyone is missing here...how wonderful this douche's life must be that he can be so petty. He got a ticket and lost his case to appeal it. So instead of simply paying hhis due, he went to a bank...stood in line...ordered and waited for 112 rolls of pennies...then he went to the courthouse and farking argued about it and now...and farking now...he is going to court over it...

preflash.gordon: So then your tax refund can be paid in pennies? Your Unemployment Insurance? Come off it. The guy gets no sympathy from me at all. Public agencies aren't equipped to deal with large amounts of pennies, any more than they may or may not be equipped to deal with PayPal, Mastercard, lira, euros, etc. Holding them to the strict implications of one single sign isn't noble freedom-fighting. It's being an annoying self-important twerp.

Reread the bolded parts and tell me which of those is a debt, either private or public. And yes, if they truly wanted to be asshats about it, they could send you a big bag of pennies. However, when you enter into these situations, choices are normally given to receive your money, and rarely do they include "assload of pennies."

Pennies aren't just legal tender for anything. You, as a person or private business, can stipulate that your debtors or customers pay you in Buckets of African Sunshine, so long as that is agreed upon by both parties beforehand. Tickets give you no such arrangement and are therefore considered public debts, for which any and all legal tender is acceptable, up to and including Susan B. Anthony dollars and the one with the IndianNative American chick on them.

For all of you who are screaming "STUPID farkING PIGS NOT LIKING PENNIES fark YOU" you do understand that it was the court system that refused to take the pennies, and not some officer on the street, right? Hell, most officers I know would find his actions pretty damned funny. I know I do. And on that note most officers I know wouldn't arrest him for such a stupid warrant either.

/but hey, if screaming that the police are out to get you makes you sleep better at night, then by all means sleep well

HunterNIU: mofomisfit: Mine isn't secret, yours isn't secret, his isn't secret, no one's DL# is secret. You know that, and asking for his was just a silly gimmick that didn't go anywhere. I'm not giving my name out on a public internet forum, that doesn't mean it's secret.

This... except I just gave him mine... D'oh!

/i swear if my driving record gets a blemish I blame fark....
//and i'll pay in pennies

NOPE! Blame yourself. You didn't have to post it.

fireside68: HunterNIU: mofomisfit: Mine isn't secret, yours isn't secret, his isn't secret, no one's DL# is secret. You know that, and asking for his was just a silly gimmick that didn't go anywhere. I'm not giving my name out on a public internet forum, that doesn't mean it's secret.

This... except I just gave him mine... D'oh!

/i swear if my driving record gets a blemish I blame fark....
//and i'll pay in pennies

NOPE! Blame yourself. You didn't have to post it.

Nope. I blame Fark. Because I'm not responsible for my own actions.

/is your sarcasm detector broken?

Who cares? It would take them (or him, if he loses) 10 seconds to go to the bank and get the pennies exchanged for cash. He wins either way.

safety-math: Who cares? It would take them (or him, if he loses) 10 seconds to go to the bank and get the pennies exchanged for cash. He wins either way.

10 seconds? Right. First National Bank of Fantasyland.

John Lee Pettimore: safety-math: Who cares? It would take them (or him, if he loses) 10 seconds to go to the bank and get the pennies exchanged for cash. He wins either way.

10 seconds? Right. First National Bank of Fantasyland.

Fine! 10 minutes.

He's a douche, and my tax dollars are paying the wages of the clerk who has to count the pennies he deliberately got from the bank. No law says they *have* to take pennies, he will lose, they will assess more fines and he will have an arrest on his rap sheet now. Sounds fair so far. Try it some more douchebag, pay your additional fines in pennies and let's see how far we can take it...

QuackScience: What this guy did doesn't make any sense? What was he trying to accomplish? He spent extra time to go to the bank to get pennies when he could have paid with bills. And now he's spending a lot of time with the court, on top of that.

/confused

See comment above yours. If everybody would take the time to make the state PROVE THE CHARGE perhaps states would quit trying to generate tickets for revenue.

I'm fighting a fine of ~$300 because I simply was innocent of the charge of speeding 90 in 70. Not only that, cop had me in wrong car (make, model and color) and wrong address. (My license had the correct one and he had it in hand when writing ticket.) Of course, the ticket was issued in East Texas and the courts here are notorious for making it so expensive to fight that it's easier to pay. I'm a real pain in the ass about doing the right thing even if it's painful so I'll fight it no matter the cost.

If the people who came up before me had cared about protecting constitutional protections, it wouldn't likely be so costly.

/you should have seen the DA's face when I showed up wearing Armani with an Hermes handbag and said no to paying the fine. I biatched him out for wasting my morning for a pre-trial hearing intended to strong-arm me into paying after I'd already pleaded not guilty and requested a trial. He tried to tell me that he didn't know how many trips it might take to court (bullshiat) and that I'd never win.
//what part of 'Not Guilty' do courts not understand these days
///sorry for long as rant but I know at least 6 people going through same in this area

wmoonfox: It Smee: He'll win in court. Pennies are legal tender for all debts public and private.

No, they aren't. It's a stupid legal caveat, but you won't find the "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private" statement on coins that you will on paper dollars -- likely due to the size of the things. Without that mandate, there is nothing forcing you to accept change as payment in full; though, the only thing I can think of as being more childish than paying your debt to the government in pennies is that very government refusing payment in a currency value that it still issues.

A bowl of dicks all around, to be sure, but making it into a criminal matter, in my opinion, is taking things too far. Whoever embarrassed the PD by requesting that warrant instead of just taking the money and whining about it needs to be dragged into a shower and scrubbed with a farking SOS pad. A legal battle either way will cost the PD and the taxpayers money they can't afford to spend...

Nope you are wrong. Businesses do not have to accept them for purchases but they do have to accept them for debts. Debt vs. purchase is the key here. This city fine is a debt so the city has to accept legal tender. Refer to the Coinage Act of 1965 if you need proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_Act_of_1965. Specifically the section "Made all coins and currency of the United States (including certain bank issues) a legal tender."

Were they asspennies?

preflash.gordon: So then your tax refund can be paid in pennies? Your Unemployment Insurance?

No. But it can't be paid with $100 bills either. If you accept cash you should have a coin counter (seeing how, you know, it's ILLEGAL to not accept coins if you accept cash). A smal coin counter will run less than $100 on eBay.

andyofne: According to snopes, no one has to accept your pennies except the Federal Reserve.


"That's it. All this means is that the Federal Reserve System must honor U.S. currency and coins, not necessarily anyone else. U.S. currency and coins can be used for making payments, but merchants do not necessarily have to accept it for all forms of business transactions."


However if they ever accepted any change especially pennies for payment they've created an essentially binding option that gives other "customers" the same right to pay with the same tender they have previously accepted, volume of said tender notwithstanding.

MyrnaMinkoff: Actually, andyofne, that seemed to be saying that individual persons or businesses can refuse any payment. Does that apply to local governments? I need law-help from a law-person.
-------------------
Actually, the snopes link doesn't completely explain the situation. Individual merchants may require other forms of payment for goods and services... unless they were provided on credit. At that point, it becomes a DEBT, and legal tender of any kind must be accepted for that debt. Here's an example. If you go to a bar and order a drink, and can't put it on a tab, and you hand the bartender $5 in pennies, they can refuse that as payment, as you haven't accepted the drink from them yet, and therefor don't actually owe them any money. However, if you go to a bar, open a tab, then at the end of the night go to pay it with pennies, they have to take it, because you are offering legal tender to pay what has now become a debt. In the case of the traffic ticket, it is a debt owed by you.

Mr. Murder: "I went to the bank and got $56 worth of rolled pennies and went down to the court house and they refused to take it.

I could understand if he had a ton of pennies in his house, but this asshat went out of his way to go to the bank to get the pennies to pay with. This douchery deserves an ass kicking.

He's gone way out of his way to inconvenience the court staff. He probably deserved the ticket, and isn't even going after th writer of the citation; he'd probably get said kicking. This is craven and petty. If he does prevail at court, he doesn't deserve it. IMHO the only point he's made is that he's an ass.

Back in the before time, I was poor as heck and would occasionally roll my pennies and use them to buy groceries. The clerks at the store across the street were used to poor student types and had figured a simple way to handle rolled coins quickly. They'd toss them on the little produce scale. A roll of pennies weighed x.xx ounces. Of course, not all pennies are equal (different combinations of of metals, corrosion, crud accumulation, etc.) and some wrappers are heavier than others but it came out pretty close. Now I know there were exactly 50 pennies in each roll because I'd double-count each roll as I packed it (hey, I was poor, what else did I have to pass the time?) but, every once in a while, one would come up a hundredth of an ounce short so I only got $0.49 credit for that roll. Still, it was a quick process and beat having to write my name and address on each roll.

I'm sure they had standard weights for dimes, nickels, and quarters as well but I was too poor to let those pile up long enough to make a full roll.

ARe you guys still arguing over that snopes link?

It says merchants don't have to take the pennies, but if you already OWE A DEBT, you can pay with whatever the fark you want.


How hard is that to comprehend? Christ.

pvd021: the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

Here you go

Do, if I go to the Gas Station, and put $50 worth of gas in my car, don't I now have a debt to the gas station for $50? If I try to give said gas station a $50 bill, and it's rejected, wouldn't that be violating the law?

Agnosto: pvd021: the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

Here you go

Do, if I go to the Gas Station, and put $50 worth of gas in my car, don't I now have a debt to the gas station for $50? If I try to give said gas station a $50 bill, and it's rejected, wouldn't that be violating the law?

You still have gas stations where you can pump THEN pay? Every one in California that I have come into contact with is pay THEN pump, meaning that there is no debt.

andyofne: According to snopes, no one has to accept your pennies except the Federal Reserve.


"That's it. All this means is that the Federal Reserve System must honor U.S. currency and coins, not necessarily anyone else. U.S. currency and coins can be used for making payments, but merchants do not necessarily have to accept it for all forms of business transactions."

I think the same logic applies when a gas station says you can only pay with bills 20$ or smaller. However, considering this is a government entity receiving the payment, i think they should be forced to accept it.

If he had to go to the courthouse to pay a fine or taxes and he paid in large bills and the change included pennies could he refuse payment in that form and demand other payment?


Number one: he should have let them toss him in jail for a while so he could get them for false imprisonment.

Number two: if they specify they will not accept payment in pennies the next step is nickels.

Number three: they are lucky that he brought machine wraped coin (rolled over edges of the paper) that they can trust to be the correct amount and their bank will accept as such. If the rolls had been hand packed with folded over ends then that would require a hand count to ensure the proper amount was recieved. (used to work on coin wrappers for banks)

Number four: if he was a real ass he would have paid in loose change!

Number five: If he does end out paying in paper money he should make it $2 bills

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Agnosto: pvd021: the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

Here you go

Do, if I go to the Gas Station, and put $50 worth of gas in my car, don't I now have a debt to the gas station for $50? If I try to give said gas station a $50 bill, and it's rejected, wouldn't that be violating the law?

You still have gas stations where you can pump THEN pay? Every one in California that I have come into contact with is pay THEN pump, meaning that there is no debt.


Yeah. The Murphy (Wal-mart) gas station near me has little signs that say "We trust you" or something along those lines...

Agnosto: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Agnosto: pvd021: the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

Here you go

Do, if I go to the Gas Station, and put $50 worth of gas in my car, don't I now have a debt to the gas station for $50? If I try to give said gas station a $50 bill, and it's rejected, wouldn't that be violating the law?

You still have gas stations where you can pump THEN pay? Every one in California that I have come into contact with is pay THEN pump, meaning that there is no debt.


Yeah. The Murphy (Wal-mart) gas station near me has little signs that say "We trust you" or something along those lines...

Then you are quite lucky. And well within your rights to pay with whatever legal tender that you have with you at the time. If they refuse to accept it, then you have free gas. Since there was no agreement beforehand to pay with only bills, they must accept all legal tender.

$2 bill experience (no, not taco bell, but close)

Every time i pay with one at the university where I work (which is kinda often, because i just have a thing for twos), they check it with the counterfeit marker. Every time.

And yet they never use the marker when I pay with $20 bills.

"It's very easy to count. It goes in 10s. I mean, there's five rows of 10s," Frank Gilberti said.

Actually,there would be six rows of 10's = $60 with $4 in change, to pay a $56.

Sounds like they are arresting him cause they cannot friggin's count.

Agnosto: pvd021: the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

Here you go

Do, if I go to the Gas Station, and put $50 worth of gas in my car, don't I now have a debt to the gas station for $50? If I try to give said gas station a $50 bill, and it's rejected, wouldn't that be violating the law?

If you can find a gas station that doesn't require you to pay before you pump, well, you live in the schticks. Just sayin'...

THX 1138: $2 bill experience (no, not taco bell, but close)

Every time i pay with one at the university where I work (which is kinda often, because i just have a thing for twos), they check it with the counterfeit marker. Every time.

And yet they never use the marker when I pay with $20 bills.

I got on the $2 bill train when a local restaurant (Ted's Montana Grill) gave my change from a meal in $2s...

Never had anyone check them yet though.

Big Merl: Behold the power of Google!(pops)

It wasn't a clerk who rejected the pennies, it was the judge. He was told to either write his drivers license on it or go back to the bank and trade them in for bills. All this started over a seat belt violation.

Now you've done it! You've taken a perfectly good thread full of fail and upped the ante! Now it'll regress to a "seat belt law" failfest...

joining the party late and i didn't read all the comments:

government has to accept legal tender as payment for debts. private businesses can set up whatever system they want and therefore can refused pennies. i found one case where a man paid a $1000 debt in pennies to a lawyer. he was brought to court and ordered to pay additional fees and even lost in appeal.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1120208723965

regardless, it's a bad idea to purposely be on the wrong side with the police. there is no blind justice, it is a fraternity among police.

andyofne: mattknows: WRONG. As someone who just took an ethics in Journalism class,

Well, you sound like a Lawyer already.

I didn't think lawyers took ethics, or journalists for that matter

CrazyCurt: I kind of like pennies. Every once in awhile I'll get a wheatback in good condition. They can be worth more than itself. Sure a nickel for a penny is sorta goofy but heck, it's still cool. And have you ever had the tin ones!? Those are so rare it's ridiculous and are worth quite a bit. I always go through my change before I run it through one of those coin-counting machines at the store. Every once in awhile a wheatback here, an buffalo nickel there, you name it.

/ I haven't seen a Kennedy half-dollar in decades though, where'd those go?

There's some guy somewhere who's sticking them all up his ass.
/you're doing it wrong!

You people thinking he's done some terrible thing need to remember that someone will end up at a bank either way and they have change counters.

Funny how he'd think he's being ass when they could just crack open all these rolls, feed them into a machine, get a total back, and spend the remainder of the couple days it took to get that many pennies and roll them mocking him.

I tried to pay for 6 parking tickets adding up to about $70 in rolled change once. They refused to take it even after I offered to count it out in front of them. Being a smart ass I decided to write them checks for each roll of change they did not accept. It turned out to be about 14 checks. Much to my dismay I realized that the checks had not cleared yet and I had no money in my checking account. I almost bounced all 14 of the checks. Luckily I realized this and ran to the bank and deposited the cash before the checks cleared. That would have really sucked.

SuperNinjaToad: actually he is not an asshat. An asshat would have dumped 5600 pennies on the county clerk's counter and legally they would have had to take it since it is CASH! no different than if he had put $10 bills on there.

This is why civilization will never transcend its core problems. Some morons just will not accept reality no matter how clearly it is made evident.

Kahabut: Bank rolled money is 100% accurate. All you have to do is count the rolls.
Even a government slave should be able to manage it.

Being that a bank roll of pennies is 50 cents, that's a few rolls. 112 to be exact.

I wish it was. I get bank rolled coin all the time in my job (bank teller) and I can tell you with total certainty that it is not always accurate. Fairly close, but not always.

The easy solution that would have automatically paid this guy back for being an unreasonable asshole would be simply be to make him wait in the lobby while the clerk counts it one coin at a time. Inefficient you say? It's the government. At least this would have been just, and it would have taken a damn sight less time than these court proceedings will.

Of course, leave it to the Canadians to simply write a law that actually addresses the issue. They're so stupid.

THX 1138: $2 bill experience (no, not taco bell, but close)

Every time i pay with one at the university where I work (which is kinda often, because i just have a thing for twos), they check it with the counterfeit marker. Every time.

And yet they never use the marker when I pay with $20 bills.

They may not use the marker, but do they check the color shifting ink?

/That's what I do...

Quartlow: andyofne: mattknows: WRONG. As someone who just took an ethics in Journalism class,

Well, you sound like a Lawyer already.

I didn't think lawyers took ethics, or journalists for that matter

It's easier to break the rules once you know them all.

evilelvis: Atypical Person Reading Fark: And no, it wouldn't make the people in charge anything other than pissed off. It's like telling me that if all the kids did their scantrons in red ink, that I'd just give everyone an A. But I won't.

Not really, because you told them up front the writing method to be accepted.

Pennies are cash.
Cash is accepted.

As I understand it, in this case coins are only accepted if they are in signed rolls.

Most places will accept cash only at a window. Now, I did not read the full article, but if the guy got a receipt for X number of rolls at the window, then I blame-uh the cashier.

If he dropped them off, it's his fault. Most places do not allow you to drop off cash for public payment. I sure can't pay my taxes in cash at the drop box nor would it be intelligent to do so - I'd probably end up in arrears.

Someone would steal it, is what I mean.

No one likes pennies. Someone tell the Mint!