I choose to believe they have to take it because it makes me happier.

If it wasn't rolled I might side with the PO-LICE. This is no different than paying a $112 fine with dollar bills. Silly court folk are always worried about setting a 'bad' precedent.

jamesmusik: Here is an excellent legal opinion on the issue, with reference to actual case law, such as it is: MTAS (new window)

Thanks, that's awesome.

The guy works in a funeral home.

I hope someone pays him for $8000 funeral in pennies. That would be awesome.

kidgenius: Yes, they do have to accept it,

Sez who? Again, I ask for citations.

hubiestubert: Back in the day, I had some problems with the billing office in college. They knew that I had a loan pending, and demanded payment before it was due in--the Financial Aid office had sent them notification, and it was sent directly to them, as opposed to me, so it was all inter-office.

The new head of the Billing office didn't care, and sent me a notice that I was going to be booted if I couldn't come up with the cash. Toot sweet.

So, I got ANOTHER loan, for $1256 from my bank--and got the Financial Aid office to send THEM my check, and the fee was about $12.50 for the whole thing, for about a month's worth of time. Had my bank give me the whole thing in rolls of nickles and dimes. Made and appointment by phone to see the head of the department, and then rolled the whole thing over in a wheel barrow.

Then, I demanded a receipt, because I over paid by $2, and wanted to see if she caught it.

After that, the Financial Aid office and the billing department seemed simpatico with my loans and grants.

sweet

jamesmusik: I'm amazed at how many people think "Legal Tender" means that some place has to accept it as a form of payment. It is perfectly legal to require bills.

Hahaha, you are so wrong.
Link

farm machine: If we want to level the playing field then we could just revoke driving privileges should you get a ticket. No fine. You just lose your license for some pre-determined period of time depending on infraction. This would treat all equal on basis of income.

No, it wouldn't, since the wealthy can much more easily hire someone to drive them around. They maintain the flexibility of driving themselves. The poorer folks have to conform to public transport schedules.

HunterNIU: Dirtybird971: HunterNIU 2008-12-16 03:51:06 PM
snake822: To all of those that think accepting the pennies as long as he wrote his DL number on them, please consider this. Would you want 112 rolls of pennies floating around into random hands with YOUR DL number written on them? I understand the logic behind needing to track where they were from in case some were short, but there's other ways to do that. Use the citation number, his name, etc. Don't ask him to provide important information that should be kept private on items he has no assurance of whose hands they will end up in.

Bah. My DL# is not that "secret." Nor should yours be.

Really? What is it?

Gimme your First name/initial middle initial last name and DOB and I'll tell you what yours is.

John Lee Pettimore: HunterNIU: wild9: HunterNIU: wild9: Yes that is what I was trying to say and it was coming out grossly wrong.

That is because your facts and interperation of the laws are grossly wrong.

Which is why I am an MIS/IT major and have to take business law classes for some reason. This topic happened to come up in a class once.

Weird. I'm an IT graduate. Never had to take any type of law class.

(Study logic as it pertains to law for fun though.)

They might not have a business law requirement at ITT Tech...

/snark, LOL

NIU... obviously

Nancyboy Internet University?

I keed. LOL.

firefly212: grizzlyjohnson: firefly212: if you accept one form of cash, you must accept all forms.

Where is this written? I keep asking and no one can tell me.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.

Basically, if you accept cash, you accept all cash, unless explicitly stated as a matter of policy at a time prior to the initiation of the transaction/contract. Barring such explicit statement, the debtor is meeting the terms of the transaction/contract as set forth at the initiation and subsequently fulfilling the requirements as set forth by law.

What it comes down to is that people can't jerk you around by saying you owe them a hundred bucks, but then when you come to pay them, saying "no, I won't accept 5 20s, I demand you come back with a 50, a 20, 2 10s, a 5, four quarters, 20 dimes, 20 nickels, and a hundred pennies"... then when you couldn't break change in time, charging you a late fee or declaring you in breech of your obligation to pay/fulfill. At the time of the issuance of the ticket, there was no notice, nor was it the written policy of the court, that pennies could not be accepted as payment, er go, they are obliged to accept them.

Put simply, the debtor only has to meet the terms of the contracts and policies as prescribed at the time of the contract/debt becoming valid (with the exception of credit card companies, who have their own set of laws)...

Look at the link Jaimesmusic posted above. The reason there are large denominations available is to avoid these kinds of unreasonable scenarios. Neither the government no anyone else has to accept a payment which cause unreasonable burden or for which they are not setup as long as there's other options.

cyber_slacker: The guy works in a funeral home.

I hope someone pays him for $8000 funeral in pennies. That would be awesome.

Family: We left your $8000 check in Uncle Harry's wallet.
Funeral Home: Great, so where is Uncle Harry's wallet?
Family: In his back pocket. Thats where he always kept it.
Funeral Home: Didn't we bury him yesterday?
Family: Why yes you did. Thank you very much for the nice service.

APPROVES

wmoonfox: No, they aren't. It's a stupid legal caveat, but you won't find the "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private" statement on coins that you will on paper dollars -- likely due to the size of the things.

They're coins stamped by the US Mint. Under the US Constitution, they are legal tender, they don't need the "legal tender" disclaimer on them (the whole reason Federal Reserve notes need that is because they aren't printed by the government but by a private bank).

John Lee Pettimore: Nancyboy Internet University?

I keed. LOL.

love you too.

hubiestubert: Back in the day, I had some problems with the billing office in college. They knew that I had a loan pending, and demanded payment before it was due in--the Financial Aid office had sent them notification, and it was sent directly to them, as opposed to me, so it was all inter-office.

The new head of the Billing office didn't care, and sent me a notice that I was going to be booted if I couldn't come up with the cash. Toot sweet.

So, I got ANOTHER loan, for $1256 from my bank--and got the Financial Aid office to send THEM my check, and the fee was about $12.50 for the whole thing, for about a month's worth of time. Had my bank give me the whole thing in rolls of nickles and dimes. Made and appointment by phone to see the head of the department, and then rolled the whole thing over in a wheel barrow.

Then, I demanded a receipt, because I over paid by $2, and wanted to see if she caught it.

After that, the Financial Aid office and the billing department seemed simpatico with my loans and grants.

Yet another great work of fiction. You should post some of your short stories on Amazon.

CaptainSmartass: Under the US Constitution, they are legal tender

Sorry, but no.

It Smee: jamesmusik: I'm amazed at how many people think "Legal Tender" means that some place has to accept it as a form of payment. It is perfectly legal to require bills.

Hahaha, you are so wrong.
Link

No you both are...Debt and Services are two different things. If you retards would read the thread before posting you would have known this.

libbynomore2: ExRedStater Quote 2008-12-16 03:56:26 PM
This might be considered a thread jack even though the main topic of fines is relevant, but I've always wondered why they are levied in a set dollar form. It doesn't seem fair that a ditch digger who makes $12,000.00 per year is fined the same amount for the same violation as Mr. Rockefeller T. Vanderbilt and his countless stash of moolah. A $600.00 dollar fine is 5% of Mr. Ditch-Digger's income but less than .0000002% of Mr. Vanderbilt's. The penalty is unequal obviously. Why is that? Why not make each fine a percent of annual income? 5% of Mr. Vanderbilt's brazillion dollars would impact him comparably to 5% Mr. Ditch-Digger's $12,000.00, wouldn't it?


My, my how very Socialist of you. So should we set variable penalties for DUI or vehicular man slaughter based on income too?

I really hope you're not being serious.

If we did base criminal sentencing on income would that mean that the poor would do longer jail time? After all, someone who is on welfare is pretty limited already, so they aren't losing much. But when someone like Martha Stewart goes to prison she is losing a hundred times more freedom, power, wealth, and everything else. So clearly the wealthy should only get a few days or weeks at the most no matter what crime they commit, while the truly poor should actually be put in prison for the rest of their life for even the most minor infraction because they are actually getting a BETTER life out of the deal.


Don't like that idea? Okay, how about we set variable penalties for criminal sentencing based on current age and life expectancy. After all, is it fair for a 60-year-old man that kills another man in a bar fight to get 15 years, or 75% of his remaining 20 years of life, when a 20-year-old that does the same thing only loses 25% of his remaining 60 years of life?

andyofne: andyofne: According to snopes, no one has to accept your pennies except the Federal Reserve.


"That's it. All this means is that the Federal Reserve System must honor U.S. currency and coins, not necessarily anyone else. U.S. currency and coins can be used for making payments, but merchants do not necessarily have to accept it for all forms of business transactions."

http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp (new window)

Dude reread your own link. They have to accept the pennies. Fail^2

HunterNIU: John Lee Pettimore: Nancyboy Internet University?

I keed. LOL.

love you too.

I did both my BSBA/MIS & MS at schools in Alabama, so I really can't give anyone a hard time about their school...

John Lee Pettimore: Yet another great work of fiction. You should post some of your short stories on Amazon.

One time he was in a Taco Bell and tried to pay with a two dollar bill and the cops came...

grizzlyjohnson: Neither the government no anyone else has to accept a payment which cause unreasonable burden or for which they are not setup as long as there's other options.


If a person feels strongly about something like this, a ticket in this case, then they must present it in terms the court can grasp.

A simple note, explaining that this is the payment they have received and they can either accept it or risk a highly publicized bloodbath when the LEOs try to serve a warrant, if they do not accept it.

Most judges, seeing the note, will do that whole "Holy crap, it isn't worth a bloodbath on CNN!" thing and cash-in the pennies.

Most will.

This guy might have to take one for the rest of us...

Pocket Ninja: Hi there. I'd just like you to know that I never do anything wrong. It's always the other guy's fault. Always. You know that guy who cut you off on the highway and nearly ran you off the road and then, instead of waving apologetically, flicked you off through the rearview mirror because you didn't anticipate my sudden and reckless move into the lane? Yeah, that was me. The guy who bumped into you in the hallway because he wasn't looking where he was going and then, instead of saying "excuse me," shoved you and told you to watch your step? Yup, me again. The guy screaming at the waiter last night at dinner? Me. The guy sitting on the quiet car on the train and yelling into his cell phone? Me again. What can I say? That's just how I roll.

What I really hate is when situations happen where some miserable asshats try to force me into accepting responsibility for my actions. Like, the time I drank my roommate's beer and then he got all mad because he didn't have any left. Like it's my fault that he left it in the fridge! Farking moron. But he gets all whiny, of course, demands that I replace it. But I fixed him. Shook each bottle up before I put it in the fridge so every one would explode on him before he could drink it. And that other time that I accidentally dropped that ceramic vase in that stupid antique store. Who the hell cares about some dumb ceramic vase? And then that biatch was all like, "you break it, you buy it." So I bought the damn thing, but I let the old biddy who ran the place know exactly what I thought of her and when I got home I posted on Angie's List about what a craphole her store was. I hope she loses all her customers and goes bankrupt. I really do. Farking people. Damn, I hate them.

And so now I got this parking ticket. Do you believe it? A farking parking ticket. The nerve of these goddamn cops. These goddamn money grubbing cops. Who do they think they are. Oh, I'll show 'em. You just wait. They'll be sorry. I'll have the last laugh, and they'll be sorry. You just wait.

...thats a whole lot of typing for very little funny...

firefly212: In the case of state and government agencies, they simply aren't afforded the ability to choose, because they cannot opt out of "all debts public" as private actors can do via contract clauses.

State and government agencies can and do refuse cash payment for debts. Not all, but most corrections agencies (including state and county) will not accept cash.

jamesmusik: Here is an excellent legal opinion on the issue, with reference to actual case law, such as it is: MTAS (new window)

Precedent, yes. Law, not so much. The ruling basically comes down to "fark the law, the clerk can determine what's reasonable." The question in this case, even when looking back to the Ohio case, would be first, whether or not the court can simply say "It defies logic and common sense that this Congress intended such a wooden and broad application of the statute" as a reason for failing to recognize a valid and standing law, and secondly whether or not the form of payment was reasonable. I mean, it's not like he came in with a grocery bag of pennies, they were rolled already... simply put, the cashier would have needed to count to 112... but refused to do so. I could kind of understand, were the pennies unrolled, or the policy of not accepting pennies actually a written policy, explicitly stated at the place of transaction... but in this case, it just seems like a lazy cashier. The fact that the clerk indicated he/she would have accepted the payment given the payor write his drivers license number on each roll of pennies is prima facie evidence that there is no policy of not accepting pennies, and furthermore evidences that the 112 rolls of pennies were not, in and of themselves, an unacceptable form of payment.

The question here is one of whether or not the cashier was refusing an otherwise acceptable form of payment (I would say she was), and if he decides to go after the court for it, whether or not such refusal constituted an attempt to suppress protected speech.

mofomisfit: Mine isn't secret, yours isn't secret, his isn't secret, no one's DL# is secret. You know that, and asking for his was just a silly gimmick that didn't go anywhere. I'm not giving my name out on a public internet forum, that doesn't mean it's secret.

Name: Todd Davis
SS: 457-55-5462

someone look up his DL# please.

//not violating any TOS since he has volunteerily made public his SS number.

Can I purchase a Total Fark account and pay monthly with pennies?

/just wonderin'

wmoonfox: It Smee: He'll win in court. Pennies are legal tender for all debts public and private.

No, they aren't. It's a stupid legal caveat, but you won't find the "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private" statement on coins that you will on paper dollars -- likely due to the size of the things. Without that mandate, there is nothing forcing you to accept change as payment in full; though, the only thing I can think of as being more childish than paying your debt to the government in pennies is that very government refusing payment in a currency value that it still issues.

A bowl of dicks all around, to be sure, but making it into a criminal matter, in my opinion, is taking things too far. Whoever embarrassed the PD by requesting that warrant instead of just taking the money and whining about it needs to be dragged into a shower and scrubbed with a farking SOS pad. A legal battle either way will cost the PD and the taxpayers money they can't afford to spend...

THIS if they had taken the pennies without a pause or a second glance it would have completely diffused his "revenge" and he wouldn't have had these 15 minutes. He's a real world Troll...

Rolled pennies is sort of a half-fail: What you're SUPPOSED to do to insure REAL annoyance is to dump the pennies out of the rolls into a bag, then present the bag of pennies for payment and then ask for your bag back.

I did this once when my Homeowners Association tried to fine me $50 for putting out my trash a half hour early. If I understand the law correctly, unless a precise form of payment is specified ahead of time (check, jelly beans, Triganic Pu, Mongolian Müngos, etc.) refusal of any form of legal tender in payment of a debt (including pennies) discharges said debt, since a good faith effort was made to discharge it.

snake822: firefly212: In the case of state and government agencies, they simply aren't afforded the ability to choose, because they cannot opt out of "all debts public" as private actors can do via contract clauses.

State and government agencies can and do refuse cash payment for debts. Not all, but most corrections agencies (including state and county) will not accept cash.

They don't accept any cash, which is a legit way of doing things. The law as it stands is basically... if you accept cash, you accept all cash, unless explicitly stated otherwise as a matter of policy. The default is all forms of cash, the onus would fall upon the payee to actually set forth policies with respect to payment, but they are legally obliged to do so at the inception of the contract

snake822: firefly212: In the case of state and government agencies, they simply aren't afforded the ability to choose, because they cannot opt out of "all debts public" as private actors can do via contract clauses.

State and government agencies can and do refuse cash payment for debts. Not all, but most corrections agencies (including state and county) will not accept cash.

They have to let you know before payment is attempted me thinks.

This guy sounds like a D-bag all around which was probably why he got a ticket in the first place.

The Dot And The Line: ...thats a whole lot of typing for very little funny...


That's the most annoying aspect of PocketNinja
Variable rewards are the most difficult to ignore.

mofomisfit: firefly212
Given that the court is violating the law Coinage act of 1965 (Public Law 89-81, 79 STAT 254), and such violation may be reasonably construed as an attempt to quash speech through rejection of valid legal tender, and an arrest warrant was issued subsequent to said rejection... I'd say the people at the Bloomfield Municipal Court have put themselves in serious legal jeopardy. Aside from the potential for false arrest, the guy has a legitimate case to argue that the agents of the court not only attempted to quash protected speech, but did so using the color of law. Frankly, this idiocy will likely cost the court a hell of a lot more than 56 bucks, and rightly so.

You can't actually believe that.

If this costs that court or the State of New Jersey much more than processing a normal traffic ticket I will eat my hat. And not just any hat, my favorite hat.

I meant it will cost them more because they are now having court appearances, and the guy will likely sue them...

It Smee: jamesmusik: I'm amazed at how many people think "Legal Tender" means that some place has to accept it as a form of payment. It is perfectly legal to require bills.

Hahaha, you are so wrong.
Link

If the place in question is not a private business...

Coins are not like notes. You are allowed by law NOT to except them for debts if the amount of coins is absurd.

DNRTA, but I'm sure this guy was trying to make a statement that he thought his fine was silly. Sometimes it's better to just bend over, pucker, and take it. The alternative is going through the legal system, and for $56, it's not worth it

firefly212: I mean, it's not like he came in with a grocery bag of pennies, they were rolled already

Is there some law of nature on your planet that requires rolls to always have exactly 50 pennies in them? When you get money, you have to count it no matter how it's presented.

As was said in the rest of the legal opinion, it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to deal with this sort of payment if there are many other options available. It's clear when someone does something like this that they are being deliberately unreasonable, the judge was perfectly within his rights to interpret the law they way he did. That he did makes it legal precedent. As you can see in the link, the douchebags that do stupid shiat like this lack the courage of their convictions to test it in court very often, but when they do I bet they don't pay their douchebag lawyers in rolls of pennies.

bilgemaster: since a good faith effort was made to discharge it.

No court in the land would label your obvious attempt to either get out of paying or cause as much hassle as possible good faith.

We won't be safe until all the cops are bleeding in the streets. Fark you all. I hope your children are raped and killed.

farm machine: Problem is that some civil servant would be required to expend effort to count the pennies.


"Hey John, its time for our break."
"Hey John, its time for our break."
"Hey John, its time for our break."
"Hey John, its time for our break."
"Hey John, its time for our break."
"Hey John, its quitting time."

You could see where this might be a problem.

Problem is, this guy gets to many freakin breaks!

SuperNinjaToad: mofomisfit: Mine isn't secret, yours isn't secret, his isn't secret, no one's DL# is secret. You know that, and asking for his was just a silly gimmick that didn't go anywhere. I'm not giving my name out on a public internet forum, that doesn't mean it's secret.

Name: Todd Davis
SS: 457-55-5462

someone look up his DL# please.

//not violating any TOS since he has volunteerily made public his SS number.

I can tell you he was born in Texas, so that makes sense.

SuperNinjaToad: mofomisfit: Mine isn't secret, yours isn't secret, his isn't secret, no one's DL# is secret. You know that, and asking for his was just a silly gimmick that didn't go anywhere. I'm not giving my name out on a public internet forum, that doesn't mean it's secret.

Name: Todd Davis
SS: 457-55-5462

someone look up his DL# please.

//not violating any TOS since he has volunteerily made public his SS number.

Ah, Todd Davis the lifelock guy. Lolz.

grizzlyjohnson: firefly212: I mean, it's not like he came in with a grocery bag of pennies, they were rolled already

Is there some law of nature on your planet that requires rolls to always have exactly 50 pennies in them? When you get money, you have to count it no matter how it's presented.

As was said in the rest of the legal opinion, it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to deal with this sort of payment if there are many other options available. It's clear when someone does something like this that they are being deliberately unreasonable, the judge was perfectly within his rights to interpret the law they way he did. That he did makes it legal precedent. As you can see in the link, the douchebags that do stupid shiat like this lack the courage of their convictions to test it in court very often, but when they do I bet they don't pay their douchebag lawyers in rolls of pennies.

The problem there is that you cant argue that the 112 rolls of pennies was an unreasonable method of payment, provided that the clerk said 112 rolls of pennies with the guys drivers license number on them was an acceptable form of payment.

MaxxLarge: These stupid cops shouldn't be grievin'.
He didn't want to be deceivin'.
Though surely, it's funny,
The penny's still money.
Now THIS is change I can believe in.

These just keep getting better and better. My laughter is drawing the eyes of my co-workers. Sexy, laughing eyes.

andyofne: According to snopes, no one has to accept your pennies except the Federal Reserve.


State of NJ accepts all US currency.

The teller is just being a dick.

This is like when BestBuy calls the cops because "there's no such thing as a $2 bill" and tries to get you arrested for using counterfeit currency.


Just an example of employees disobeying their employers policy.


For the record, the teller is doing this to get the extra money from the fines, and bail. They city needs the cash like everyone else in NJ. It's just a money grab.

farm machine: Tainted

I don't think I've ever seen a major financial office without these machines.

grizzlyjohnson: bilgemaster: since a good faith effort was made to discharge it.

No court in the land would label your obvious attempt to either get out of paying or cause as much hassle as possible good faith.

He brought tender to the court in an effort to pay it... he may have done so begrudgingly. The question here is whether or not we can differentiate reasonable and unreasonable forms of payment by whether or not the drivers license number is written on them. The reality here is that as much as this guys effort lacked good faith, the clerk of the court also exhibited bad faith in attempting to reject an acceptable form of payment simply because it didn't have a drivers license number written on it, a policy that the court attempted to apply to only this one man. If it was their policy that all people write their d/l number on payments, that'd be one thing, but she attempted to reject payment based on a special policy she made up on the fly, just for him, in an attempt to quash an otherwise legitimate form of protest (protected speech).

firefly212: The problem there is that you cant argue that the 112 rolls of pennies was an unreasonable method of payment, provided that the clerk said 112 rolls of pennies with the guys drivers license number on them was an acceptable form of payment.

In both the cases cited in that link option were given allowing the payer to pay with the cash they brought, just like in this case, and the court still ruled it unreasonable.

Why was the driver's license required? Because the clerk did not have the wherewithal to count the pennies, so they would be taken to the bank to be counted. If they were short the bank would let the clerk know and the clerk would be able to contact the guy. The clerk made the effort to accomodate the douchebag in spite o the fact that he/she didn't have to, but the douchebag refused. Still unreasonable.