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(MSN Autos)   The jihad of peace   (yellowtimes.org) divider line 262
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7838 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jan 2003 at 10:00 AM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-01-16 11:29:39 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
"this war is a multifaceted affair, economic, political, personal etc. Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY."

WTF!!??!

Perhaps you'd like to go off bombing Austrailia in revenge for the 9-11 attacks too? It's be just a relevant.
 
2003-01-16 11:30:55 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
So what DOES Saddam have to do with 9/11?

Sorry for trolling, but I have not heard one good reason to invade Iraq. All the reasons given to us by Bush are more speculative than substantial. And in comparison, North Korea is doing everything that Iraq has been accused of. While I don't like Harmonia's point of view, I would like to know why you think we should invade Iraq.
 
2003-01-16 11:31:43 AM  
Leviathan,

No, Americans say that it is for revenge.

Those Muslims who feel that this is a holy war believe that the United States is attempting to destroy their culture and religious ideals. Therefore, they wage a jihad (struggle) against whom they consider oppressors trying to destroy fellow Muslims. I don't think that this is bullshiat.

However, there is a difference between these Muslims and those who claim to be Muslims such as Osama bin Laden, just as there is a difference between Christians and those who claim to be Christians such as George W. Bush or Donald Rumsfeld.
 
2003-01-16 11:32:17 AM  
Millay
"Blumf:
i'm anti-war, but for completely different reasons than Harmonia and the other reflexive anti-Americans out there.
"

Um... thats nice, why are you telling me though? :-/
 
2003-01-16 11:33:17 AM  
Sthayashi,

Speaking of North Korea, that same PINR think tank just released a short report on North Korea's recent actions, explaining what is going on between North Korea and the United States.

Read it here: http://pinr.com/reports/PINR_Jan1503.pdf
 
2003-01-16 11:33:23 AM  
ZZZXZZZ, what did Saddam have to do with 9/11?
 
2003-01-16 11:36:36 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
Harmonia, this war is a multifaceted affair, economic, political, personal etc. Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY. Trust me if you were here you would too. Have you ever been subjected to any event of this grandure?! I think not. And dont start saying Saddam had nothing to do with this.

Don't confuse gloating about something with actually being involved in it. Not to say that he wasn't, and if he was then something needs to be done, but where is the proof?

Also is killing 500,000 civilians (according to estimates by humanitarian/UN/other groups) by bombing/starvation going to help things?

I would imagine your average Iraqi will not understand why he is being attacked for the actions of his unelected leader. In fact he'd probably have about the same reaction as you did to 9/11. shiat, if my family were killed then I'd want to get back at the people who did it, any way that I could. It's like, Takeitdown's PINR article said - ...which further serves the inherently cyclical nature of events.

There's just going to be a lot more pissed off people over there if we go to war for bullshiat reasons. You ever paused to wonder why someone would want to become a terrorist?
 
2003-01-16 11:37:06 AM  
Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY.

Huh? How will this avange 9/11?
 
2003-01-16 11:39:05 AM  
I am glad you liked that report, BigAl. Ever since I found that group I have been an addicted reader ever since. I heard about them on a Toronto radio program -- the main guy was speaking about the anti-American sentiment. They have reports in all different languages too.
 
2003-01-16 11:39:28 AM  
Great point, BigAl. I see a stroke of genius in you that I have not seen before!
 
2003-01-16 11:40:38 AM  
HARAKAT UL-MUJAHEDIN (HUM)
Islamic extremist
Pakistan, Kashmir (northern India), Afghanistan
Anti-Indian; seeks Islamic rule in Kashmir and throughout the world

Are their members called the HUMmers?
 
2003-01-16 11:40:50 AM  
There is an increasingly vocal movement that seeks to engage America in ever longer, wider, and more costly wars-leading to thousands and perhaps millions of unnecessary deaths. This movement calls itself the "anti-war" movement.
Across America and throughout the world, "anti-war" groups are staging "peace rallies" that attract tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands of participants, who gather to voice their opposition to an invasion of Iraq and to any other U.S. military action in the War on Terrorism. The goal of these rallies, the protesters proclaim, is to promote peace. "You can bomb the world to pieces," they chant, "but you can't bomb it into peace."
If dropping bombs won't work, what should the United States do to obtain a peaceful relationship with the numerous hostile regimes, including Iraq, that seek to harm us with terrorism and weapons of mass destruction? The "peace advocates" offer no answer. The most one can coax out of them are vague platitudes (we should "make common cause with the people of the world," says the prominent "anti-war" group Not in Our Name) and agonized soul-searching ("Why do they hate us?").
The absence of a peacenik peace plan is no accident. Pacifism is inherently a negative doctrine-it merely says that military action is always bad. As one San Francisco protestor put the point: "I don't think it's right for our government to kill people." In practice, this leaves the government only two means of dealing with our enemies: to ignore their acts of aggression, or to appease them by capitulating to the aggressor's demands.
We do not need to predict or deduce the consequences of pacifism with regard to terrorism and the nations that sponsor it, because we experienced those consequences on September 11. Pacifism practically dictated the American response to terrorism for more than 23 years, beginning with our government's response to the first major act of Islamic terrorism against this country: when Iranian mobs held 52 Americans hostage for 444 days at the American embassy in Tehran. In response to that and later terrorist atrocities, American Presidents sought to avoid military action at all costs-by treating terrorists as isolated criminals and thereby ignoring the role of the governments that support them, or by offering diplomatic handouts to terrorist states in hopes that they would want to be our friends. With each pacifist response it became clearer that the most powerful nation on Earth was a paper tiger-and our enemies made the most of it.
After years of American politicians acting like peaceniks, Islamic terrorism had proliferated from a few gangs of thugs to a worldwide scourge-making possible the attacks of September 11.
It is an obvious evasion of history and logic for the advocates of pacifism to label themselves "anti-war," since the policies they advocate necessarily invite escalating acts of war against anyone who practices them. Military inaction sends the message to an aggressor-and to other, potential aggressors-that it will benefit by attacking the United States. To whatever extent "anti-war" protesters influence policy, they are not helping to prevent war; they are acting to make war more frequent and deadly, by making our enemies more aggressive, more plentiful, and more powerful.
The only way to deal with militant enemies is to show them unequivocally that aggression against the United States will lead to their destruction. The only means of imparting this lesson is overwhelming military force-enough to defeat and incapacitate the enemy. Had we annihilated the Iranian regime 23 years ago, we could have thwarted Islamic terrorism at the beginning, with far less cost than will be required to defeat terrorism today.
And if we fail to use our military against state sponsors of terrorism today, imagine the challenge we will face five years from now when Iraq and Iran possess nuclear weapons and are ready to disseminate them to their terrorist minions. Yet such a world is the goal of the "anti-war" movement.
The suicidal stance of peaceniks is no innocent error or mere overflow of youthful idealism. It is the product of a fundamentally immoral commitment: the commitment to ignore reality-from the historical evidence of the consequences of pacifism to the very existence of the violent threats that confront us today-in favor of the wish that laying down our arms will achieve peace somehow.
Those of us who are committed to facing the facts should condemn these peaceniks for what they really are: warmongers for our enemies.
 
2003-01-16 11:41:39 AM  
My bumper sticker idea:

[image from 216.136.200.194 too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 11:43:54 AM  
Blumf:

Just to dispel any notion that I am "Clint Eastwoodish."
 
2003-01-16 11:44:23 AM  
The average Iraqi is so afraid of Hussein's spies and death squads that he'll forgive us when it's all over and he can speak without watching his every word.

Jihad: a movement for peace, so long as all the world is either muslim or dhimmi. I think the Journal's response to Sheryl Crow is justified.
 
2003-01-16 11:44:51 AM  
You ever paused to wonder why someone would want to become a terrorist?

Great question BigAl! No, I do not ponder such questions, because I'm an idiot, I like things blak and white, cut and dry if you will. Either you're a good guy, or a bad guy. Simple rule of thumb, if you wear black you be bad, if you wear white you be good. ta-da! See, simple, I need simplicity, it makes life so much easier to digest. Thats why in ingest mass amounts of drugs and "Joe Millionaire", it dulls the pain of reality.

/sarcasm
 
2003-01-16 11:46:09 AM  
IMYHO: Wars have always been fought over resources, money, land and power. Religious furvor is what gets the common man to lay down his life and fight for what he "believes" in. People wouldn't fight if they knew it was really about oil, or gold mines (like the ones recently discovered in Chile who incidently now is harboring terrorists according to the US) or land or pipelines or drug routes. Tell them someone doesn't hold the same religous values as they do and they're gung ho.
 
2003-01-16 11:47:05 AM  
Now I get it. All this time I've been thinking that the members of Islamic Jihad were intentionally killing all those Isreali women and children. But in reality, they were suffering and trying to determine their inner identity. The dynamite they strapped to their bodies and exploded was in order to resolve this inner conflict.

If those damn Isreali's would just understand this, the world would be a better place.
 
2003-01-16 11:47:56 AM  
Wow, it's fun to see that we have so many experts in Middle Eastern politics and terrorism forensics!

Not to mention all the mental health professionals who apparently have nothing better to do all day than peruse Fark and point out to us that GWB is (pick one of:) retarded, dyslexic, insane, and calculating. Sometimes all at once, too!
 
2003-01-16 11:48:31 AM  
01-16-03 11:33:23 AM AbbaDabba
ZZZXZZZ, what did Saddam have to do with 9/11?????

what didn't he?!!

what kinda question is that?!! there is no proof either way yet
 
2003-01-16 11:48:39 AM  
Darkhairedgirl: That's so true. Diamond makes the point of religion being able to control people's actions for "their country" over their own family in "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fate Of Human Societies". You might want to read it, I think you'll find it eye-opening.
 
2003-01-16 11:49:11 AM  
Objectivist:

I agree with most of what you wrote, but if the US is going to use military force, why not concentrate on the Saudis (home of the erstwhile 9/11 hijackers) or Afghanistan and Pakistan (presumably harboring OBL)? Saddam seems to be happily suppressing dissent and gassing Kurds while giving little thought to 9/11 beyond applauding it.
 
2003-01-16 11:50:26 AM  
Millay
"Just to dispel any notion that I am 'Clint Eastwoodish.'"

Ah, so does that make you more like John Wayne? :)
 
2003-01-16 11:52:00 AM  
Blumf:

No, pilgrim, it doesn't. :)
 
2003-01-16 11:52:24 AM  
Millay

I think the US should go after Iran first because they are the center of Islamic Fundamentalism and that is what were at war with. Then palestine. We need to be a true ally to Israel.
 
2003-01-16 11:53:29 AM  
Ignorance, oppression, poverty, no hope for the future, thats what breeds terrorists and in a lesser form, anti-social behavior. We have a large group of Americans living in abject poverty who commit hanious and seemingly unjustifiable crimes everyday. Why? They ain't got nothing to lose! Give them some thing to lose, such as dignity and hope, and they might react differently. Well, unless they are Muslims, cuz you know, thats just a farked up religion of death and destruction! hahahahahha, no.
 
2003-01-16 11:54:25 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
"what didn't he?!!

what kinda question is that?!! there is no proof either way yet
"

Well I just think you are an utter bastard for helping in the 9-11 attacks. It's just makes me sick to think that you actually help those people murder thousands.

No I don't have any proof either but since you're ignoring reality...

P.S. Saddam hates Al-quida/OBL almost as much as he hates the US and the feeling is mutual.
 
2003-01-16 11:54:52 AM  
Beefoe,

Maybe if those "damn Israelis" wouldn't force the Palestinians to live in such horrid conditions, you wouldn't have suicide bombs.

Go take a trip to Israel yourself and see how the Palestinians live. Worse than America's ghettos, which are almost worse than many third world countries.
 
2003-01-16 11:56:14 AM  
You see, people like Objectivist believe that their ideas should be implemented throughout the world, even if that means using weapons and war to accomplish it.

He is the type of person, just like those in many governments around the world, who try to make others live like they want them to live.
 
2003-01-16 11:56:52 AM  
Voodoochild -- sure, terrorism is caused by poverty! That's why there's so much unrest in North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc.

/sarcasm
 
2003-01-16 11:57:30 AM  
HATE GROUPS IN CALIFORNIA

City Chapter Group

Alameda National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Alleghany National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Big Bear World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Calpella National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Carmichael World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Compton Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Costa Mesa Blood and Honour Other
Costa Mesa Women for Aryan Unity Other
Fallbrook White Aryan Resistance Neo-Nazi
Fresno SS Enterprise Neo-Nazi
Hemet Hammerskin Nation Racist Skinhead
Lawndale House of David Black Separatist
Long Beach Aryan Nations Neo-Nazi
Los Angeles Jewish Defense League Other
Los Angeles Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Monrovia National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Newport Beach Imperial Klans of America Ku Klux Klan
Newport Beach Institute For Historical Review Other
Novato European American Unity and Rights Organization Other
Oakland Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Orange Cove World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Palo Alto National Skinhead Front Racist Skinhead
Pomona Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Redding National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Reseda National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Riverside National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Riverside National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Sacramento Council of Conservative Citizens Other
Sacramento National Alliance Neo-Nazi
San Bernardino National Alliance Neo-Nazi
San Diego Hammerskin Nation Racist Skinhead
San Diego Nation of Islam Black Separatist
San Diego National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
San Diego Vinland Records Other
San Francisco Nation of Islam Black Separatist
San Francisco National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
San Jose League of the South Neo-Confederate
Sherman Oaks Voice of Citizens Together Other
Sierra Madre World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Tehachapi World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Thousand Oaks National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Yucaipa Aryan Action Racist Skinhead
 
2003-01-16 11:58:03 AM  
Jewing

The conditions they live in is not because of Israel. They have the PLO to thank for that. Israel has been acting in its own self defense since 1948.
 
2003-01-16 11:58:13 AM  
Voodoochild: I concur. Don't forget the effect of globalization and corporate corruption in many "third-world" countries that breeds a lot of hate towards laisez-faire capitalism.
 
2003-01-16 11:59:59 AM  
Objectivist: I wonder what version of history you are reading.

Plenty of Israeli historians, such as Benny Morris, have documented that the Israeli government made life as miserable as possible in the Occupied Territories in the hopes that Palestinians would leave and move to Jordan.

I think you need to read some more books, such as Benny Morris' Righteous Victims. Or Avi Shlaim's the Iron Wall.
 
2003-01-16 12:00:35 PM  
Terrorism is caused by the stupidity of the people and the madness of those who lead them.

If poverty lead to violence Iraq would be awash in riotous blood already.
 
2003-01-16 12:00:52 PM  
Great point, Rogue.

We just witnessed that in Brazil, where the country voted in a leftist to protest U.S. policies and globalization on their country.
 
2003-01-16 12:01:46 PM  
Takeitdown

Where do you get off saying I want everyone around the world to live like I want them to. I don't care how anyone lives as long as there not aggressor. There is a huge difference between self defense and the intiation of force. I also notice you have no argument against any ideas I've presented just personal jabs at me. It shows that you have nothing to say!!
 
2003-01-16 12:02:33 PM  
Sigh,

I just can't help myself. Here is a little story and a question (along with a summary for the those who miss the point) Then I'm going to eat lunch for an hour. Then I'll argue back if you like.

Little Johnny is playing with his ball in the front yard. It is a nice red ball. Ooops the ball bounces in the street and Little Johnny goes after it while cars are speeding at 45 in a 25 mile an hour zone. Johnny is too small for these cars to notice (for whatever reason it just helps the story). You are standing on the sidewalk as little Johnny runs by. You notice he may (will) get hit if he runs in the street. Do you say, "I gotta save that kid before he gets hit!" Then you grab Little Johnny thereby saving his life. Or do you say, "Well he might get hit, he might not. If he gets hit I'll do something then." And watch as he is knocked out of his Keds and into ground beef.

Most people would save him before he gets hit. Here is a summation for those who don't get it (you know who you are)

Little Johnny = "World Peace, innocent lives, prosperity"
Speeding cars = "Iraq, terrorists, etc. . ."
Choice one = "Gotta stop bad things before they happen. . .At possible personal risk."
Choice two = "We don't have a good enough reason to act yet. When something bad happens maybe we can save him then."

War with Iraq is preemptive to stop bad things from happening while it is dangerous it may be neccessary. The stance that there is no good reason to fight yet let's wait equals reactive. Once Johnny is car burger you can't unburger him.
 
2003-01-16 12:02:45 PM  
Objectivist:

Who is Iraq aggressing against right now? In fact, it is only the United States who is aggressing against IRaq. Does that mean that the world has the right to drop cluster bombs on the United States?
 
2003-01-16 12:05:06 PM  
Darkhairedgirl: I'm glad it wasn't my "good morning" that pissed you off enough to leave for a bit... had me wondering for a second.

Regarding fighting: Soldiers fight for the guy in trenches next to them. My Dad's a vet and when the shiat hit, it was all about taking care of each other. All the political ramblings ment nothing when the bullets started flying. Morale and questioning "why" in the off hours was another matter though.

Although from my Dad's old photo albums (Vietnam) it looks like they spent their off duty time sunning themselves, smoking and visiting the bars and hitting on girls.
 
2003-01-16 12:05:49 PM  
The hell with all the B.S., lets just hurry and bomb Iraq while the human shields are still in place
 
2003-01-16 12:06:25 PM  
Jewing
Beefoe,

Maybe if those "damn Israelis" wouldn't force the Palestinians to live in such horrid conditions, you wouldn't have suicide bombs.

Go take a trip to Israel yourself and see how the Palestinians live. Worse than America's ghettos, which are almost worse than many third world countries.


Not that the Palestinian terrorists help things at all. Suicide bombing innocent civilians is not going to encourage their targets to think reasonably about things. A sustained dose of peaceful protest and they'd almost certainly end up with what they wanted through international pressure. Well, it worked for Ghandi at least.

I think the situation is pretty evenly split on the blame stakes. It's just the civilians on both sides that end up getting the raw deal, bought on by a minority of 'eye for an eye' types on both sides. Another fine example of one of those self-feeding conflicts. In other words, someone really needs to back down/change tactics before it's too late.
 
2003-01-16 12:06:26 PM  
Darkhairedgirl
What is a cool and beautiful girl like you doing in Houston of all places.........I though all the cool people left. As far as the impending war with Iraq goes I for one need a little more proof. It's starting to feel like Orwells 1984 around here. I am just waiting for my government mandated happy pills.
 
2003-01-16 12:07:13 PM  
Clevershark
Voodoochild -- sure, terrorism is caused by poverty! That's why there's so much unrest in North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc.

/sarcasm

Hey genius, those poor and stupid people who haven't seen anything but misery in their miserable little lives are much more likely to buy into whatever is being sold to them by genuinely evil people like Osama Bin Diksukin. You know if they had a job and a home and maybe a Wega TV to watch the soccer game on, I doubt they would be willing to listen to some asshat like Osama.
 
2003-01-16 12:07:25 PM  
So Joe, you happy to splat little Jonny as long as he is Iraqi?

[image from images.ucomics.com too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 12:07:46 PM  
BigAl,

I am not saying that the Palestinian militants help the situation. I am simply saying that the conditions of the Occupied Territories is due to Israeli policy, not just militants.

In fact, the conditions of the Occupied Territories were horrible from 67 on, even though you didn't have suicide bombers back then (to any degree as they are now).
 
2003-01-16 12:08:08 PM  
Well first of all I already stated I think that there are other nations we should go after first. Secondly any government that funds terrorist groups that's only mission in life is to destroy America and Israel is an aggressor and we have the right to defend ourselves. Iraq also tried to assasinate our President, (Bush Sr.) that is an act of aggression is it not?
 
2003-01-16 12:08:25 PM  
Sthayashi,Blumf,AbbaDabba: Given enough time and support, we will dismantle the machines that create inter-national strife, if need be starting with Australia and ending with Zimbabwe! If you come up with a way to do this without casualties please inform your local government
 
2003-01-16 12:10:18 PM  
Let us also not forget that suicide bombing has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims.

One of the worst suicide bombing groups of them all, the Tamil Tigers, are Hindus. Same with Japanese during WWII who flew into American warships.

Suicide bombing is merely a tactic by groups who consider it the most effective means in fighting an enemy. Just or unjust -- the point is that it doesn't have to do with Muslims.
 
2003-01-16 12:10:23 PM  
One other tiny point:

If you had a friend who was crying into his beer "no-one likes me" what answer should a true freind give?

"Dont worry about it mate, they are all just jealous, lets go out and kick their heads in"

Or

"Well perhaps you should stop acting in such an irritating way"
 
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