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(MSN Autos)   The jihad of peace   (yellowtimes.org) divider line 262
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7836 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jan 2003 at 10:00 AM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-01-16 10:48:12 AM  
good morning darkhairedgirl!
 
2003-01-16 10:48:25 AM  
I wonder why we haven't seen any protest marches sponsored
by Kuwaitis, Israelis, Jordanians, or Kurds. Could it be that it's because Saddam Hussein is right in their backyard?
Could it be that many Kuwaitis held their babies as they died,
vomiting blood from being gassed by Saddam Hussein? Having a
peace march is a luxury afforded by living half the world away,
but if Saddam Hussein's seat of power was Montana, Quebec,
Spain, Italy, or Austria, you can bet that people would toss
down their peace signs and pick up rifles. Scan some microfiche
files of newspapers from the thirties and forties, and see
how so many journalists advocated appeasing Adolf Hitler. See
what good that did for Europe. In fact, had it not been for
the Russians, Europe probably would still be living under
fascist rule. And Swami_dm I agree with you.
There aren't even words to describe how supremely farked up
Sean Penn is. feh....
 
2003-01-16 10:48:35 AM  
I can more easily compare Hussein's Iraq with Hitler's Germany than with Vietnam or Korea.
 
2003-01-16 10:49:03 AM  
Bush has had a hard-on for Saddam for years. It has nothing to do with terrorism. And what better enemy to take on than one that's half-starved and decimated from 12 years of continuous bombing? A nice, easy, clean turkey-shoot. Sort of like those 'canned' hunts where they shoot animals while they're still in cages. He'll mount Saddam's head on a plaque like a prize buck and feel like a real man.

.
...retard
 
2003-01-16 10:49:11 AM  
Is Harmonia spewing her tired shiat still?
 
2003-01-16 10:49:21 AM  
/*Bites tongue*
/*sighs*
/Leaves.
 
2003-01-16 10:49:35 AM  
Harmonia
"Mark Feb 14th in your diary, big big day."

Where?
 
2003-01-16 10:49:49 AM  
Just because you protest a war does NOT make you a pacifist. For example, I realize that wars are bound to happen and that it's just another way to thin out human populations and achieve balance, spur and/or destroy technology and economies, and lead to greater social control/cohesion. However, I have a problem with THIS war because no one has presented any hard evidence besides propaganda (on both sides) and the fact that there are too many problems in the US right now to spend ~$100B. If soeone presents me with some hard evidence, then I'm all for going to war, as long as the Iraqi people end up with a truly democratic government and a stable economy.
So, protesting ONE war doesn't mean you protest ALL wars.
 
2003-01-16 10:51:34 AM  
Eh, Sean Penn isn't so farked up. Yeah, he's doing the tofu-breath thing "for peace", but he didn't seem to be ranting rhetoric, he was going somewhere and doing something (however pointlessly), to find out things for himself. He wasn't himself a "Hanoi Jane". I'm not a big fan of Penn's politics, but it didn't seem to me that he was there in support of the Iraqi government.
 
2003-01-16 10:52:23 AM  
Gunhead: No one is protesting in those countries because they are not democracies. Being able to stage public protests is one of the few strengths of a democratic society.
 
2003-01-16 10:52:48 AM  
Harmonia:

Since most firefighters in the US feel some sort of solidarity with the NYFD, they tend to stay away from anti-war demos, leaving the usual suspects--wealthy, naive university students and the public intellectuals and figures that appeal to them. Little broad support.

What's Feb. 14th, besides Valentine's Day?
 
2003-01-16 10:53:09 AM  
Give War a Chance....oops! Thats give peace a chance. My bad.
 
2003-01-16 10:53:43 AM  
Swami_dm
"I can more easily compare Hussein's Iraq with Hitler's Germany than with Vietnam or Korea."

That would be the similarity between Germany's technical superiority and Iraq's I take it?
 
2003-01-16 10:54:49 AM  
Pretty good writer. By his name, he is Iraqi.
 
2003-01-16 10:55:36 AM  
I'm reminded of the saying (paraphrased) that "anything worthwhile is difficult to attain." Were that the majority of people in the world really aspired to the notions in this article, could dictators like Saddam come about? I doubt it. Instead, a few violent extremists are able to have their way because most people stand idly by while it happens. All the major religions have teachings of nonviolence, but for some reason this is not what bubbles to the top of people's consciousness. Sigh...
 
2003-01-16 10:56:21 AM  
why does everyone assume yellow times is liberal propaganda??? contact the author of the article yourself and he may be a religious right republican for all we know, expressing the truth in love....contact him yourself...
Firas Al-Atraqchi encourages your comments: f­ir­a­s654­4­[nospam-﹫-backwards]sre­gor*com
 
2003-01-16 10:56:49 AM  
Blumf

No, that would be the conquering your neighbor similarity.
 
2003-01-16 10:57:21 AM  
Penn's astonishing stupidity was to believe that he'd see something in Iraq which would deviate in any way from the Baath party line.

I just love that Iraqi press release that said that Penn had confirmed that Iraq had no WMD... priceless. If you're going to be a tool, be a huge, public tool!
 
2003-01-16 10:59:09 AM  
Actually, jihad does mean struggle. It was always known as a struggle within yourself. However, it can also be applied to a struggle against those who try to destroy you -- or a holy war.
 
2003-01-16 10:59:41 AM  
Since most firefighters in the US feel some sort of solidarity with the NYFD

So do those here, they also, strangly enough, feel for those in Iraq who would be incinarated by the USAF.

Funny that.

Sorry its feb 15th not 14th
 
2003-01-16 11:03:15 AM  
By his name, he is Iraqi.

Takeitdown, how are you able to determine that?
 
2003-01-16 11:04:21 AM  
Harmonia:

"[T]here is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States."

Orwell--always a socialist, always right about what he wrote above.
 
2003-01-16 11:06:22 AM  
*unbites tongue for a few moments*
01-16-03 10:48:25 AM Gunhead
Could it be that many Kuwaitis held their babies as they died,
vomiting blood from being gassed by Saddam Hussein?


Can you give me a link to a "legit" source on that one?

Also most people don't know why Sadaam invaded Kuwait, with the US telling him they wouldn't interfere nonetheless. From what I've read and the research I've done I found quite a few sources that say Kuwait was syphoning oil from the Iraqi border. Basically the US said that they wouldn't interfere, and when Sadaam invaded we showed up with guns drawn. Not using it as an excuse for killing innocents. Just stating what I've found.


Hello Burrhead. =)
 
2003-01-16 11:06:23 AM  
Because Firas Al-Atraqchi is usually an Iraqi name just as Avi Shlaim is an Israeli name.

I also have read much of Al-Atraqchi's work.
 
2003-01-16 11:07:56 AM  
Takeitdown: Just because someone has a last name beginning with "Al-" does not make someone Arabic. I've known a white muslim who's last name began with "Al'" and he grew up in Chicago. Just like if your name is "Smith", you don't want people thinking your a descendant of Capt. John Smith
 
2003-01-16 11:08:36 AM  
And your point millay?

There may be a few people like that about, but considering we had 400,000 people on the London anti-war demo and 1 million of the European wide demo in Florence, they are hardly any sort of significant force.
 
2003-01-16 11:09:53 AM  
Rogue7:

I never said that his name made him Arabic. I said that his name made him Iraqi. There is a difference in names amongst various Arab societies. Judging by your statement, you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
2003-01-16 11:10:03 AM  
"Fighting for peace is like farking for chastity"
- Lenny Bruce
 
2003-01-16 11:10:07 AM  
Swami_dm
"No, that would be the conquering your neighbor similarity."

Oooooh that one!

Well I can see a lot of similarity with Japan, France, England, Isreal, Italy, etc. etc. too.

In fact England is a very close match to Iraq, Has invaded neighbors and has gassed Iraq civilians in its history. So whens the US lead invasion comming the UKs way then?
 
2003-01-16 11:11:19 AM  
Takeitdown: Ummmm, last time I checked, Iraq was within the MIddle East. People from the region are called "Arabs", therefore Iraqi=Arab.
 
2003-01-16 11:12:02 AM  
Rogue7, you're digging yourself into a hole.
 
2003-01-16 11:13:25 AM  
Gunhead
I wonder why we haven't seen any protest marches sponsored
by Kuwaitis, Israelis, Jordanians, or Kurds. Could it be that it's because Saddam Hussein is right in their backyard?
Could it be that many Kuwaitis held their babies as they died,
vomiting blood from being gassed by Saddam Hussein? Having a
peace march is a luxury afforded by living half the world away,
but if Saddam Hussein's seat of power was Montana, Quebec,
Spain, Italy, or Austria, you can bet that people would toss
down their peace signs and pick up rifles. Scan some microfiche
files of newspapers from the thirties and forties, and see
how so many journalists advocated appeasing Adolf Hitler. See
what good that did for Europe. In fact, had it not been for
the Russians, Europe probably would still be living under
fascist rule. And Swami_dm I agree with you.
There aren't even words to describe how supremely farked up
Sean Penn is. feh....


I find it easier to compare Saddam to dozens of very unpleasant dictators around the world, some of whom come up far nastier. Try reading about what goes on down in Africa someday.

That said, I'd be all in favour of removing Saddam right now. He is a vile man whose crimes have been well documented. However, replacing him with some puppet dictator is not going to help anything. We also run the risk of destabilising the entire mid-east and plunging the region into total chaos. That would be bad for everyone.

If we are going to go in then we need some actual reasons, rather than a bunch of propaganda and rhetoric. As it stands we may well martyr Saddam and have to live with his memory for years to come. We are also about to enact the best recruiting campaign Al Quaida has ever had.

Mainly because (according to the humanitarian/UN/Other groups) we are likely to kill around 500,000 Iraqi civilians due to bombing and starvation. I'd imagine your average Iraqi is going to blame the west for this. Now take the anger generated on 911 and multiply that 100 times over. Not a nice thing for us to be on the receiving end of in a few years time, is it?
 
2003-01-16 11:13:33 AM  
Thank you Clintonhater -- despite the language.
 
2003-01-16 11:13:52 AM  
Good article. It has given me a different perspective on things than the usual outlook that I recieve from major media outlets.

Thanks Firas Al-Atraqch.
 
2003-01-16 11:13:58 AM  
Lemon tree, very pretty...

ABU NIDAL ORGANIZATION (ANO)
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East, Asia, Europe
Anti-Israel, opposes moderate Arab regimes, seeks independent Palestinian state, rejects Middle East Peace Process

ABU SAYYAF GROUP (ASG)
Islamic extremist
Philippines
Seeks Iranian-style Islamic state on one of the Philippines' southern islands

AL-AQSA MARTYRS BRIGADE
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East
Seeks establishment of independent Palestinian state; rejects Middle East Peace Process

AL-QAEDA*
Islamic extremist
Worldwide
Opposes "non-Islamic" regimes, strongly anti-Western, seeks to "reestablish the Muslim State" throughout the Persian Gulf; responsible for U.S. Embassy bombings in East Africa (1998), bombing of the USS Cole (2000), and attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon (2001)

ARMED ISLAMIC GROUP (GIA)
Islamic extremist
Algeria, France
Anti-foreign, anti-Algerian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state; frequently massacres civilians

ASBAT AL-ANSAR
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East
Seeks establishment of independent Palestinian state; rejects Middle East Peace Process

AL-GAMA'A AL-ISLAMIYYA (IG)*
(ISLAMIC GROUP)
Islamic extremist
Egypt
Anti-Egyptian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state; responsible for attack on tourists at Luxor, Egypt (1997)

HAMAS
Islamic extremist
Israel, Occupied Territories, Jordan
Anti-Israel, seeks to establish Palestinian Islamic state; tactics include large-scale suicide bombings; rejects Middle East Peace Process

HARAKAT UL-MUJAHEDIN (HUM)
Islamic extremist
Pakistan, Kashmir (northern India), Afghanistan
Anti-Indian; seeks Islamic rule in Kashmir and throughout the world

HIZBALLAH *
Islamic (Shi'a) extremist,
closely linked to Iranian Government
Lebanon
Seeks to establish Islamic theocracy in Lebanon and to reduce non-Islamic influences in the Middle East; responsible for suicide truck bombings of U.S. Embassy and Marine barracks (1983) and U.S. Embassy Annex in Beirut (1984), among other terrorist acts

EGYPTIAN AL-JIHAD (EIJ)
Islamic extremist
Egypt
Anti-Egyptian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state; original al-Jihad responsible for assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat (1981)


KURDISTAN WORKERS' PARTY (PKK)
Separatist (Marxist-Leninist)
Turkey, Europe, Middle East, Asia
Anti-Turkish, seeks to establish independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey

MUJAHEDIN-E-KHALQ ORGANIZATION * (MEK or MKO)
Marxist-Islamic, Iranian dissident
Iraq; worldwide operation
Seeks to overthrow Iranian Government, has expressed
anti-Western sentiment in the past

PALESTINE ISLAMIC JIHAD - SHIQAQI FACTION (PIJ)
Islamic extremist
Middle East
Anti-Israel, rejects Middle East Peace Process, seeks to establish Islamic Palestinian state

PALESTINE LIBERATION FRONT - ABU ABBAS FACTION
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East, now based in Iraq
Anti-Israel; rejects Middle East Peace Process; seeks to establish independent Palestinian state; responsible for seizure of Achille Lauro cruise ship (1985), during which an American was murdered

POPULAR FRONT FOR THE
LIBERATION OF PALESTINE (PFLP)
Palestinian nationalist
Israel, Occupied Territories, Syria, Lebanon
Anti-Israel, rejects Middle East Peace Process, seeks to establish independent Palestinian state

POPULAR FRONT FOR THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE - GENERAL COMMAND (PFLP-GC)
Palestinian nationalist
Israel, Occupied Territories, Lebanon, Egypt
Anti-Israel, rejects Middle East Peace Process, seeks to establish independent Palestinian state; broke from PFLP in 1968 because PFPL-GC founder believed PFLP too focused on diplomacy, not engaging in enough violence

SALAFIST GROUP FOR CALL AND COMBAT (GROUPE SALAFISTE POUR LA PREDICATION ET LE COMBAT)
Islamic extremist
Algeria
Anti-foreign, anti-Algerian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state
 
2003-01-16 11:14:28 AM  
Harmonia:

I was just explaining the depth and breadth (or lack thereof) of the anti-war forces in the US. The Orwell quote was a general rebuke of pacifism.

As for the turnouts in the EU, well, soon you guys will have an answer to the age-old question about the tree in the forest. Protest all you want. You have as much influence on US war policy as a million protesters in New York saying they don't want the UK to adopt the Euro. That is to say, none.
 
2003-01-16 11:14:50 AM  
Good point BigAl. And will what replaces Hussein, along with the path there, be any better for the Iraqi people?

That is another good question to ask. Looking at U.S. history of military interventions, the outlook does not look good for Iraq.
 
2003-01-16 11:16:58 AM  
BigAl takes a very big hammer and hits the nail square on the head. Hero!
 
2003-01-16 11:16:58 AM  
Millay:

I wouldn't be so sure that the Europeans have no influence.

The fact is that there is a wave of anti-American leaders being voted into office all around the world due to the war on terror. It has happened in Brazil, South Korea, Pakistan and Turkey. In addition, the view of the United States around the world has declined drastically since 2000.

All of this affects U.S. foreign policy decisions.
 
2003-01-16 11:17:32 AM  
ZachMorello:

Our extended occupations have turned out quite well, though.
 
2003-01-16 11:19:14 AM  
ABU NIDAL ORGANIZATION (ANO)

Abu Nidal is dead. He got perferated last year or the year before.
 
2003-01-16 11:19:53 AM  
Millay: If I've read correctly, Orwell was strongly anti-war. If you read 1984, he uses the fact that this totalitarian regime is constantly at war with all of these far-flung vague enemies to justify it's human and civil rights abuses.
 
2003-01-16 11:19:54 AM  
In fact, I direct you to a recent report by the PINR think-tank.

In it, they describe how anti-American attitudes pose a danger to U.S. foreign policy.

You can read the PDF file here:
http://pinr.com/reports/PINR_Dec1702.pdf

It's called, "Global Insecurity." It is only two pages long.
 
2003-01-16 11:21:43 AM  
01-16-03 10:31:10 AM Swami_dm
"...they understand that sometimes it is necessary to punch back" they just don't agree that this situation warrants the use of deadly force.

It seems to me that Harmonia and people of similar beliefs are trying to live in some star treck type ultra-moral future , a utopian type world... bah

Even as we strive to achieve that sort of global peace and understanding where intersocial conflics will be resolved in courts using philosophy not on battle fields using weapons, we will not succede without the use of force as long as there are people who dont share our views who have weapons, so as strange as it sounds you can F**ck for virginity.
 
2003-01-16 11:22:00 AM  
Space_Heathen,

They may have worked well for the United States, or the government in the occupied country, but not necessarily for the people. While there are cases, such as in Europe, where a U.S. occupation has helped the people, there are many cases in Asia, South America and the Middle East where just the opposite is true.
 
2003-01-16 11:24:30 AM  
Takeitdown:
my point about being ineffectual applies to Europeans, who will complain to no end but will not fly two planes into tall US buildings, no matter how much they think they hate us.

Rogue7:
I never said Orwell wasn't anti-war. I was just agreeing with his assessment of what many self-professed pacificists really believe.
 
2003-01-16 11:25:45 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
"It seems to me that Harmonia and people of similar beliefs are trying to live in some star treck type ultra- moral future , a utopian type world... bah"

It also seems that the war hawks among us seem to live in a Clint Eastwood western where the big guy with the gun shoots a couple of bad guys and rides off into the sunset with no future repercussions.
 
2003-01-16 11:26:24 AM  
"01-16-03 10:33:18 AM Harmonia
Swami_dm, is America retaliating? about what.

I thought this was pre-emptive retaliation."

Harmonia, this war is a multifaceted affair, economic, political, personal etc. Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY. Trust me if you were here you would too. Have you ever been subjected to any event of this grandure?! I think not. And dont start saying Saddam had nothing to do with this.
 
2003-01-16 11:28:42 AM  
Blumf:

i'm anti-war, but for completely different reasons than Harmonia and the other reflexive anti-Americans out there.
 
2003-01-16 11:29:00 AM  
Harmonia
The_leviathan, and here on fark you can hear hundreds of Americnas calling for jihad against moslems every day.

Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.


Nice obfuscation. Plenty of Westerners may call for war on Muslims, but they sure as hell don't try and later BS that the word "war" is about a personal, internal struggle when called to account over their bellicosity.
 
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