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(MSN Autos)   The jihad of peace   (yellowtimes.org ) divider line
    More: Interesting  
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7841 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jan 2003 at 10:00 AM (13 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



262 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2003-01-16 09:25:01 AM  
I've jihad enough of the YellowTimes.
 
2003-01-16 10:04:20 AM  
Bump is my hero
 
2003-01-16 10:04:54 AM  
the war of peace? isn't that what we are doing?
 
2003-01-16 10:05:11 AM  
Dear Yellow Times. I've got your jihad of peace right here. Fap.
 
2003-01-16 10:05:55 AM  
farked.
 
2003-01-16 10:06:01 AM  
farked already?
 
2003-01-16 10:06:03 AM  
"Tolerance to the infidels!"

Hmm... doesn't have that same ring to it.
 
2003-01-16 10:09:13 AM  
sfw?
[image from brant.net too old to be available]

g'mornin' sunshines.
 
2003-01-16 10:09:48 AM  
Bump has said it all.

Zork out.

-TZ
 
2003-01-16 10:14:25 AM  
So what if Jihad does mean "struggle"? So does "Kampf". (As in "Mein ...")
 
2003-01-16 10:14:45 AM  
The majority speaks, nice to hear.
 
2003-01-16 10:15:11 AM  
Oops. Maybe it was on my end - back now.

Sorry about the precipitous farkedness warning.
 
2003-01-16 10:16:20 AM  
Cereal box journalism.....
 
2003-01-16 10:16:51 AM  
I haven't jihad a piece for quite awhile!
 
2003-01-16 10:18:19 AM  
ji·had also je·had Pronunciation Key (j-häd)
n.
A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
A crusade or struggle: "The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke" (Fortune).


It does not mean I declare a jihad against this double meat double cheese whataburger.
 
2003-01-16 10:18:38 AM  
Dear Yellow Times: get jihad out of your ass, thank you.

-alto
 
2003-01-16 10:18:44 AM  
ok, at the bottom of that article it has a list of "peacemakers." What the hell is up with that? Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon? I hope most people on Fark realize that these nobodies are just trying to reclaim some sort of stature in society. Usually yellowtimes is the shiat, but what the butt do i care what the literal translation and origin of the word JIHAD is? That article is bullpiss.
 
2003-01-16 10:19:16 AM  
So true. Before everyone calls all muslims militant martyrs, they might want to read the Quran and a history of Islam. It was the caliphs that used the term Jihad to imply th destruction of Christianity. Mohammed meant it as an metaphysical struggle between rage (the poison of society) and peace (the true path to Allah). Nice to hear some sane things about Islam.
 
2003-01-16 10:20:15 AM  
Awful quiet in here... why not...

click here and join the fun?
 
2003-01-16 10:21:30 AM  
There's nothing sane about Islam, just as there's nothing sane about religion in general.
 
2003-01-16 10:23:02 AM  
oh. you can use 'jihad' instead of 'had' in a sentence. i get it now.
 
2003-01-16 10:23:53 AM  
I'd join 'the religion of peace' but I prefer dating girls without mutilated genitalia. I guess I'm just not tolerant enough.
 
2003-01-16 10:25:10 AM  
I guess that's why we keep hearing thousands of Muslims talking about making jihad against the infidels every day...poor misguided men. If only they would read the Yellow Times I'm sure they'd give up the violent interpretation of the word.
 
2003-01-16 10:27:38 AM  
OK YellowTimes (or the guest columnist at least), I gotta cry foul on this one. Comparing Sean Penn and Susan Surandon to Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela?

To my knowledge Sean Penn has never spent a significant portion of his life jailed for fighting for equality for his people, and Susan Surandon has never won a Nobel Peace prize. Get some perspective, please.
 
2003-01-16 10:28:34 AM  
Pinko Commie Bastards.
 
2003-01-16 10:30:34 AM  
They lost me when they started expressing admiration for the apparently genuinely-retarded Sean Penn.

OK, that's a lie, Yellow Times lost me the very first time I hazarded to check out their little workers paradise site. Heck, I wish I were unintelligent enough to fool myself into seeing life the way they do -- if indeed they genuinely do see the world in this manner -- but that's not an option open to me.

Seriously, we should really charge Yellow Journalism... er, YT a promotion fee. I'll bet that on days when one of their "analyses" are linked here most of their traffic comes from Fark.
 
2003-01-16 10:30:57 AM  
[image from wtvt.com too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 10:31:05 AM  
The_leviathan, and here on fark you can hear hundreds of Americnas calling for jihad against moslems every day.

Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.
 
2003-01-16 10:31:10 AM  
I was reminded of the joke:

What to do if you happen upon a peace rally by stupid naive hemp-shirt-wearing college idiots, to teach them why force is sometimes needed:

1) Approach dumb rich ignorant student talking about "peace" and saying there should be, "no retaliation."
2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.
3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"
4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."
5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.
6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."
7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.
8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to punch back.
 
2003-01-16 10:31:13 AM  
I still think that judging Islam from the extremists is every bit as ignorant as judging Christianity by the extremists.

Before we start with the religious quotes - You can use almost any book to justify anything. If I decided that Lord of the Rings was a holy book then I'm sure I could find instructions from god in it for me to do anything I wanted to.

Still that said, I don't have a lot of time for organised religions at the best of times. I wish all the dogma ridden types would piss off for 40 years or so - must be an interesting desert where they can get god's instructions from.
 
2003-01-16 10:33:18 AM  
Swami_dm, is America retaliating? about what.

I thought this was pre-emptive retaliation.

BTW, do try that at the next anti-war demo, you will discover that most of us who are against the war are not pacifists.
 
2003-01-16 10:33:48 AM  
Equating Sean Penn with Desmond Tutu? Are you kidding me?
 
2003-01-16 10:34:46 AM  
Equating George Bush with a Statesman and great politician? are you kidding me?
 
2003-01-16 10:34:50 AM  
[image from storetn.cafepress.com too old to be available]
 
bug
2003-01-16 10:35:25 AM  
"BTW, do try that at the next anti-war demo, you will discover that most of us who are against the war are not pacifists"

true. I once mocked an anti-war demo and had oolong tea and a sandal thrown at me. be wary.
 
2003-01-16 10:35:39 AM  
How can you demonstrate for peace if you are not a pacifist? I might be wrong on this one, but isn't "pacifist"="person in favor of peace"?
 
2003-01-16 10:35:52 AM  
And the WWII could be avoided because Chamberlain achieved "peace in our time"
 
2003-01-16 10:36:11 AM  
I don't know, Harmonia, most of what I hear has been against the extremist "Muslims", and the countries that they foster.
 
2003-01-16 10:36:23 AM  
Sean Penn does have one significant contribution to peace. He started in the movie Thin Red Line. Let's face it, if war was as long and boring as that movie (It felt longer than World War I and the Korean War combined), we'd nuke ourselves just to avoid conflict.
 
2003-01-16 10:36:25 AM  
Harmonia -- that's not a likely contingency in the Yellow Times.
 
2003-01-16 10:37:46 AM  
Harmonia:

"BTW, do try that at the next anti-war demo, you will discover that most of us who are against the war are not pacifists."

The haute bourgeoisie kids who go to all the demos are not pacificists. However, anti-war protestors seem to have a weird attitude towards violence. Here in the states during Vietnam, kids thrashed property and fought cops all the time, but with no killing. When Kent State happened, they dropped all the violent and confrontational rhetoric like a hot potato and scurried off to graduate school.

I don't know what that proves, but I find anti-war protestors interesting. And amusing.
 
2003-01-16 10:38:01 AM  
You must read some edited version of fark Steve, want me to dig around and fine the posts with "kill the camelfarkers" or "nuke baghdad"?

Swami, know about any other wars apart from WW2, Vietnam for example. Its a far more recent and relevent example.
 
2003-01-16 10:38:07 AM  
Just as Susan Sarandon is known as 'the breasts of Hollywood', I am known as 'the prick of the Netherlands' - but for completely different reasons.
 
2003-01-16 10:38:19 AM  
Bush is a true retard. He´s the biggest joke ever! Hahaha...
 
2003-01-16 10:39:55 AM  
The word "jihad" comes from the three-letter root of j, h, and d. The j, h, and d of jihad when grouped together mean "effort."

neato...i guess that means that it should fall into the same grouping of verbs like darasa and kataba

learn somethin' new eveyday
 
2003-01-16 10:40:01 AM  
Harmonia -- or Desert Storm. That's even more recent and relevant.
 
2003-01-16 10:41:39 AM  
Stevarooni
I don't know, Harmonia, most of what I hear has been against the extremist "Muslims", and the countries that they foster.

Well, that rules out Iraq. Secular state and definitely not in the 'loony fundie' Islam brigade. Ruled by an asshole, but one of his few redeeming features is that he isn't a fundamentalist. Mouths the correct phrases in speeches, but lives none of it.
 
2003-01-16 10:42:57 AM  
Harmonia. Kill the camel farkers. Nuke Baghdad
 
2003-01-16 10:43:44 AM  
Interesting? I think not.
 
2003-01-16 10:48:09 AM  
Millay, I dont know about US demos, ours are certainly not
"haute bourgeoisie kids"

In fact our next one is being led by the firefighters union.

Mark Feb 14th in your diary, big big day.
 
2003-01-16 10:48:12 AM  
good morning darkhairedgirl!
 
2003-01-16 10:48:25 AM  
I wonder why we haven't seen any protest marches sponsored
by Kuwaitis, Israelis, Jordanians, or Kurds. Could it be that it's because Saddam Hussein is right in their backyard?
Could it be that many Kuwaitis held their babies as they died,
vomiting blood from being gassed by Saddam Hussein? Having a
peace march is a luxury afforded by living half the world away,
but if Saddam Hussein's seat of power was Montana, Quebec,
Spain, Italy, or Austria, you can bet that people would toss
down their peace signs and pick up rifles. Scan some microfiche
files of newspapers from the thirties and forties, and see
how so many journalists advocated appeasing Adolf Hitler. See
what good that did for Europe. In fact, had it not been for
the Russians, Europe probably would still be living under
fascist rule. And Swami_dm I agree with you.
There aren't even words to describe how supremely farked up
Sean Penn is. feh....
 
2003-01-16 10:48:35 AM  
I can more easily compare Hussein's Iraq with Hitler's Germany than with Vietnam or Korea.
 
2003-01-16 10:49:03 AM  
Bush has had a hard-on for Saddam for years. It has nothing to do with terrorism. And what better enemy to take on than one that's half-starved and decimated from 12 years of continuous bombing? A nice, easy, clean turkey-shoot. Sort of like those 'canned' hunts where they shoot animals while they're still in cages. He'll mount Saddam's head on a plaque like a prize buck and feel like a real man.

.
...retard
 
2003-01-16 10:49:11 AM  
Is Harmonia spewing her tired shiat still?
 
2003-01-16 10:49:21 AM  
/*Bites tongue*
/*sighs*
/Leaves.
 
2003-01-16 10:49:35 AM  
Harmonia
"Mark Feb 14th in your diary, big big day."

Where?
 
2003-01-16 10:49:49 AM  
Just because you protest a war does NOT make you a pacifist. For example, I realize that wars are bound to happen and that it's just another way to thin out human populations and achieve balance, spur and/or destroy technology and economies, and lead to greater social control/cohesion. However, I have a problem with THIS war because no one has presented any hard evidence besides propaganda (on both sides) and the fact that there are too many problems in the US right now to spend ~$100B. If soeone presents me with some hard evidence, then I'm all for going to war, as long as the Iraqi people end up with a truly democratic government and a stable economy.
So, protesting ONE war doesn't mean you protest ALL wars.
 
2003-01-16 10:51:34 AM  
Eh, Sean Penn isn't so farked up. Yeah, he's doing the tofu-breath thing "for peace", but he didn't seem to be ranting rhetoric, he was going somewhere and doing something (however pointlessly), to find out things for himself. He wasn't himself a "Hanoi Jane". I'm not a big fan of Penn's politics, but it didn't seem to me that he was there in support of the Iraqi government.
 
2003-01-16 10:52:23 AM  
Gunhead: No one is protesting in those countries because they are not democracies. Being able to stage public protests is one of the few strengths of a democratic society.
 
2003-01-16 10:52:48 AM  
Harmonia:

Since most firefighters in the US feel some sort of solidarity with the NYFD, they tend to stay away from anti-war demos, leaving the usual suspects--wealthy, naive university students and the public intellectuals and figures that appeal to them. Little broad support.

What's Feb. 14th, besides Valentine's Day?
 
2003-01-16 10:53:09 AM  
Give War a Chance....oops! Thats give peace a chance. My bad.
 
2003-01-16 10:53:43 AM  
Swami_dm
"I can more easily compare Hussein's Iraq with Hitler's Germany than with Vietnam or Korea."

That would be the similarity between Germany's technical superiority and Iraq's I take it?
 
2003-01-16 10:54:49 AM  
Pretty good writer. By his name, he is Iraqi.
 
2003-01-16 10:55:36 AM  
I'm reminded of the saying (paraphrased) that "anything worthwhile is difficult to attain." Were that the majority of people in the world really aspired to the notions in this article, could dictators like Saddam come about? I doubt it. Instead, a few violent extremists are able to have their way because most people stand idly by while it happens. All the major religions have teachings of nonviolence, but for some reason this is not what bubbles to the top of people's consciousness. Sigh...
 
2003-01-16 10:56:21 AM  
why does everyone assume yellow times is liberal propaganda??? contact the author of the article yourself and he may be a religious right republican for all we know, expressing the truth in love....contact him yourself...
Firas Al-Atraqchi encourages your comments: fir­as6­5­44[nospam-﹫-backwards]srego­r­*com
 
2003-01-16 10:56:49 AM  
Blumf

No, that would be the conquering your neighbor similarity.
 
2003-01-16 10:57:21 AM  
Penn's astonishing stupidity was to believe that he'd see something in Iraq which would deviate in any way from the Baath party line.

I just love that Iraqi press release that said that Penn had confirmed that Iraq had no WMD... priceless. If you're going to be a tool, be a huge, public tool!
 
2003-01-16 10:59:09 AM  
Actually, jihad does mean struggle. It was always known as a struggle within yourself. However, it can also be applied to a struggle against those who try to destroy you -- or a holy war.
 
2003-01-16 10:59:41 AM  
Since most firefighters in the US feel some sort of solidarity with the NYFD

So do those here, they also, strangly enough, feel for those in Iraq who would be incinarated by the USAF.

Funny that.

Sorry its feb 15th not 14th
 
2003-01-16 11:03:15 AM  
By his name, he is Iraqi.

Takeitdown, how are you able to determine that?
 
2003-01-16 11:04:21 AM  
Harmonia:

"[T]here is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States."

Orwell--always a socialist, always right about what he wrote above.
 
2003-01-16 11:06:22 AM  
*unbites tongue for a few moments*
01-16-03 10:48:25 AM Gunhead
Could it be that many Kuwaitis held their babies as they died,
vomiting blood from being gassed by Saddam Hussein?


Can you give me a link to a "legit" source on that one?

Also most people don't know why Sadaam invaded Kuwait, with the US telling him they wouldn't interfere nonetheless. From what I've read and the research I've done I found quite a few sources that say Kuwait was syphoning oil from the Iraqi border. Basically the US said that they wouldn't interfere, and when Sadaam invaded we showed up with guns drawn. Not using it as an excuse for killing innocents. Just stating what I've found.


Hello Burrhead. =)
 
2003-01-16 11:06:23 AM  
Because Firas Al-Atraqchi is usually an Iraqi name just as Avi Shlaim is an Israeli name.

I also have read much of Al-Atraqchi's work.
 
2003-01-16 11:07:56 AM  
Takeitdown: Just because someone has a last name beginning with "Al-" does not make someone Arabic. I've known a white muslim who's last name began with "Al'" and he grew up in Chicago. Just like if your name is "Smith", you don't want people thinking your a descendant of Capt. John Smith
 
2003-01-16 11:08:36 AM  
And your point millay?

There may be a few people like that about, but considering we had 400,000 people on the London anti-war demo and 1 million of the European wide demo in Florence, they are hardly any sort of significant force.
 
2003-01-16 11:09:53 AM  
Rogue7:

I never said that his name made him Arabic. I said that his name made him Iraqi. There is a difference in names amongst various Arab societies. Judging by your statement, you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
2003-01-16 11:10:03 AM  
"Fighting for peace is like farking for chastity"
- Lenny Bruce
 
2003-01-16 11:10:07 AM  
Swami_dm
"No, that would be the conquering your neighbor similarity."

Oooooh that one!

Well I can see a lot of similarity with Japan, France, England, Isreal, Italy, etc. etc. too.

In fact England is a very close match to Iraq, Has invaded neighbors and has gassed Iraq civilians in its history. So whens the US lead invasion comming the UKs way then?
 
2003-01-16 11:11:19 AM  
Takeitdown: Ummmm, last time I checked, Iraq was within the MIddle East. People from the region are called "Arabs", therefore Iraqi=Arab.
 
2003-01-16 11:12:02 AM  
Rogue7, you're digging yourself into a hole.
 
2003-01-16 11:13:25 AM  
Gunhead
I wonder why we haven't seen any protest marches sponsored
by Kuwaitis, Israelis, Jordanians, or Kurds. Could it be that it's because Saddam Hussein is right in their backyard?
Could it be that many Kuwaitis held their babies as they died,
vomiting blood from being gassed by Saddam Hussein? Having a
peace march is a luxury afforded by living half the world away,
but if Saddam Hussein's seat of power was Montana, Quebec,
Spain, Italy, or Austria, you can bet that people would toss
down their peace signs and pick up rifles. Scan some microfiche
files of newspapers from the thirties and forties, and see
how so many journalists advocated appeasing Adolf Hitler. See
what good that did for Europe. In fact, had it not been for
the Russians, Europe probably would still be living under
fascist rule. And Swami_dm I agree with you.
There aren't even words to describe how supremely farked up
Sean Penn is. feh....


I find it easier to compare Saddam to dozens of very unpleasant dictators around the world, some of whom come up far nastier. Try reading about what goes on down in Africa someday.

That said, I'd be all in favour of removing Saddam right now. He is a vile man whose crimes have been well documented. However, replacing him with some puppet dictator is not going to help anything. We also run the risk of destabilising the entire mid-east and plunging the region into total chaos. That would be bad for everyone.

If we are going to go in then we need some actual reasons, rather than a bunch of propaganda and rhetoric. As it stands we may well martyr Saddam and have to live with his memory for years to come. We are also about to enact the best recruiting campaign Al Quaida has ever had.

Mainly because (according to the humanitarian/UN/Other groups) we are likely to kill around 500,000 Iraqi civilians due to bombing and starvation. I'd imagine your average Iraqi is going to blame the west for this. Now take the anger generated on 911 and multiply that 100 times over. Not a nice thing for us to be on the receiving end of in a few years time, is it?
 
2003-01-16 11:13:33 AM  
Thank you Clintonhater -- despite the language.
 
2003-01-16 11:13:52 AM  
Good article. It has given me a different perspective on things than the usual outlook that I recieve from major media outlets.

Thanks Firas Al-Atraqch.
 
2003-01-16 11:13:58 AM  
Lemon tree, very pretty...

ABU NIDAL ORGANIZATION (ANO)
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East, Asia, Europe
Anti-Israel, opposes moderate Arab regimes, seeks independent Palestinian state, rejects Middle East Peace Process

ABU SAYYAF GROUP (ASG)
Islamic extremist
Philippines
Seeks Iranian-style Islamic state on one of the Philippines' southern islands

AL-AQSA MARTYRS BRIGADE
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East
Seeks establishment of independent Palestinian state; rejects Middle East Peace Process

AL-QAEDA*
Islamic extremist
Worldwide
Opposes "non-Islamic" regimes, strongly anti-Western, seeks to "reestablish the Muslim State" throughout the Persian Gulf; responsible for U.S. Embassy bombings in East Africa (1998), bombing of the USS Cole (2000), and attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon (2001)

ARMED ISLAMIC GROUP (GIA)
Islamic extremist
Algeria, France
Anti-foreign, anti-Algerian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state; frequently massacres civilians

ASBAT AL-ANSAR
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East
Seeks establishment of independent Palestinian state; rejects Middle East Peace Process

AL-GAMA'A AL-ISLAMIYYA (IG)*
(ISLAMIC GROUP)
Islamic extremist
Egypt
Anti-Egyptian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state; responsible for attack on tourists at Luxor, Egypt (1997)

HAMAS
Islamic extremist
Israel, Occupied Territories, Jordan
Anti-Israel, seeks to establish Palestinian Islamic state; tactics include large-scale suicide bombings; rejects Middle East Peace Process

HARAKAT UL-MUJAHEDIN (HUM)
Islamic extremist
Pakistan, Kashmir (northern India), Afghanistan
Anti-Indian; seeks Islamic rule in Kashmir and throughout the world

HIZBALLAH *
Islamic (Shi'a) extremist,
closely linked to Iranian Government
Lebanon
Seeks to establish Islamic theocracy in Lebanon and to reduce non-Islamic influences in the Middle East; responsible for suicide truck bombings of U.S. Embassy and Marine barracks (1983) and U.S. Embassy Annex in Beirut (1984), among other terrorist acts

EGYPTIAN AL-JIHAD (EIJ)
Islamic extremist
Egypt
Anti-Egyptian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state; original al-Jihad responsible for assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat (1981)


KURDISTAN WORKERS' PARTY (PKK)
Separatist (Marxist-Leninist)
Turkey, Europe, Middle East, Asia
Anti-Turkish, seeks to establish independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey

MUJAHEDIN-E-KHALQ ORGANIZATION * (MEK or MKO)
Marxist-Islamic, Iranian dissident
Iraq; worldwide operation
Seeks to overthrow Iranian Government, has expressed
anti-Western sentiment in the past

PALESTINE ISLAMIC JIHAD - SHIQAQI FACTION (PIJ)
Islamic extremist
Middle East
Anti-Israel, rejects Middle East Peace Process, seeks to establish Islamic Palestinian state

PALESTINE LIBERATION FRONT - ABU ABBAS FACTION
Palestinian nationalist
Middle East, now based in Iraq
Anti-Israel; rejects Middle East Peace Process; seeks to establish independent Palestinian state; responsible for seizure of Achille Lauro cruise ship (1985), during which an American was murdered

POPULAR FRONT FOR THE
LIBERATION OF PALESTINE (PFLP)
Palestinian nationalist
Israel, Occupied Territories, Syria, Lebanon
Anti-Israel, rejects Middle East Peace Process, seeks to establish independent Palestinian state

POPULAR FRONT FOR THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE - GENERAL COMMAND (PFLP-GC)
Palestinian nationalist
Israel, Occupied Territories, Lebanon, Egypt
Anti-Israel, rejects Middle East Peace Process, seeks to establish independent Palestinian state; broke from PFLP in 1968 because PFPL-GC founder believed PFLP too focused on diplomacy, not engaging in enough violence

SALAFIST GROUP FOR CALL AND COMBAT (GROUPE SALAFISTE POUR LA PREDICATION ET LE COMBAT)
Islamic extremist
Algeria
Anti-foreign, anti-Algerian Government, seeks to establish Islamic state
 
2003-01-16 11:14:28 AM  
Harmonia:

I was just explaining the depth and breadth (or lack thereof) of the anti-war forces in the US. The Orwell quote was a general rebuke of pacifism.

As for the turnouts in the EU, well, soon you guys will have an answer to the age-old question about the tree in the forest. Protest all you want. You have as much influence on US war policy as a million protesters in New York saying they don't want the UK to adopt the Euro. That is to say, none.
 
2003-01-16 11:14:50 AM  
Good point BigAl. And will what replaces Hussein, along with the path there, be any better for the Iraqi people?

That is another good question to ask. Looking at U.S. history of military interventions, the outlook does not look good for Iraq.
 
2003-01-16 11:16:58 AM  
BigAl takes a very big hammer and hits the nail square on the head. Hero!
 
2003-01-16 11:16:58 AM  
Millay:

I wouldn't be so sure that the Europeans have no influence.

The fact is that there is a wave of anti-American leaders being voted into office all around the world due to the war on terror. It has happened in Brazil, South Korea, Pakistan and Turkey. In addition, the view of the United States around the world has declined drastically since 2000.

All of this affects U.S. foreign policy decisions.
 
2003-01-16 11:17:32 AM  
ZachMorello:

Our extended occupations have turned out quite well, though.
 
2003-01-16 11:19:14 AM  
ABU NIDAL ORGANIZATION (ANO)

Abu Nidal is dead. He got perferated last year or the year before.
 
2003-01-16 11:19:53 AM  
Millay: If I've read correctly, Orwell was strongly anti-war. If you read 1984, he uses the fact that this totalitarian regime is constantly at war with all of these far-flung vague enemies to justify it's human and civil rights abuses.
 
2003-01-16 11:19:54 AM  
In fact, I direct you to a recent report by the PINR think-tank.

In it, they describe how anti-American attitudes pose a danger to U.S. foreign policy.

You can read the PDF file here:
http://pinr.com/reports/PINR_Dec1702.pdf

It's called, "Global Insecurity." It is only two pages long.
 
2003-01-16 11:21:43 AM  
01-16-03 10:31:10 AM Swami_dm
"...they understand that sometimes it is necessary to punch back" they just don't agree that this situation warrants the use of deadly force.

It seems to me that Harmonia and people of similar beliefs are trying to live in some star treck type ultra-moral future , a utopian type world... bah

Even as we strive to achieve that sort of global peace and understanding where intersocial conflics will be resolved in courts using philosophy not on battle fields using weapons, we will not succede without the use of force as long as there are people who dont share our views who have weapons, so as strange as it sounds you can F**ck for virginity.
 
2003-01-16 11:22:00 AM  
Space_Heathen,

They may have worked well for the United States, or the government in the occupied country, but not necessarily for the people. While there are cases, such as in Europe, where a U.S. occupation has helped the people, there are many cases in Asia, South America and the Middle East where just the opposite is true.
 
2003-01-16 11:24:30 AM  
Takeitdown:
my point about being ineffectual applies to Europeans, who will complain to no end but will not fly two planes into tall US buildings, no matter how much they think they hate us.

Rogue7:
I never said Orwell wasn't anti-war. I was just agreeing with his assessment of what many self-professed pacificists really believe.
 
2003-01-16 11:25:45 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
"It seems to me that Harmonia and people of similar beliefs are trying to live in some star treck type ultra- moral future , a utopian type world... bah"

It also seems that the war hawks among us seem to live in a Clint Eastwood western where the big guy with the gun shoots a couple of bad guys and rides off into the sunset with no future repercussions.
 
2003-01-16 11:26:24 AM  
"01-16-03 10:33:18 AM Harmonia
Swami_dm, is America retaliating? about what.

I thought this was pre-emptive retaliation."

Harmonia, this war is a multifaceted affair, economic, political, personal etc. Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY. Trust me if you were here you would too. Have you ever been subjected to any event of this grandure?! I think not. And dont start saying Saddam had nothing to do with this.
 
2003-01-16 11:28:42 AM  
Blumf:

i'm anti-war, but for completely different reasons than Harmonia and the other reflexive anti-Americans out there.
 
2003-01-16 11:29:00 AM  
Harmonia
The_leviathan, and here on fark you can hear hundreds of Americnas calling for jihad against moslems every day.

Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.


Nice obfuscation. Plenty of Westerners may call for war on Muslims, but they sure as hell don't try and later BS that the word "war" is about a personal, internal struggle when called to account over their bellicosity.
 
2003-01-16 11:29:39 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
"this war is a multifaceted affair, economic, political, personal etc. Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY."

WTF!!??!

Perhaps you'd like to go off bombing Austrailia in revenge for the 9-11 attacks too? It's be just a relevant.
 
2003-01-16 11:30:55 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
So what DOES Saddam have to do with 9/11?

Sorry for trolling, but I have not heard one good reason to invade Iraq. All the reasons given to us by Bush are more speculative than substantial. And in comparison, North Korea is doing everything that Iraq has been accused of. While I don't like Harmonia's point of view, I would like to know why you think we should invade Iraq.
 
2003-01-16 11:31:43 AM  
Leviathan,

No, Americans say that it is for revenge.

Those Muslims who feel that this is a holy war believe that the United States is attempting to destroy their culture and religious ideals. Therefore, they wage a jihad (struggle) against whom they consider oppressors trying to destroy fellow Muslims. I don't think that this is bullshiat.

However, there is a difference between these Muslims and those who claim to be Muslims such as Osama bin Laden, just as there is a difference between Christians and those who claim to be Christians such as George W. Bush or Donald Rumsfeld.
 
2003-01-16 11:32:17 AM  
Millay
"Blumf:
i'm anti-war, but for completely different reasons than Harmonia and the other reflexive anti-Americans out there.
"

Um... thats nice, why are you telling me though? :-/
 
2003-01-16 11:33:17 AM  
Sthayashi,

Speaking of North Korea, that same PINR think tank just released a short report on North Korea's recent actions, explaining what is going on between North Korea and the United States.

Read it here: http://pinr.com/reports/PINR_Jan1503.pdf
 
2003-01-16 11:33:23 AM  
ZZZXZZZ, what did Saddam have to do with 9/11?
 
2003-01-16 11:36:36 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
Harmonia, this war is a multifaceted affair, economic, political, personal etc. Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY. Trust me if you were here you would too. Have you ever been subjected to any event of this grandure?! I think not. And dont start saying Saddam had nothing to do with this.

Don't confuse gloating about something with actually being involved in it. Not to say that he wasn't, and if he was then something needs to be done, but where is the proof?

Also is killing 500,000 civilians (according to estimates by humanitarian/UN/other groups) by bombing/starvation going to help things?

I would imagine your average Iraqi will not understand why he is being attacked for the actions of his unelected leader. In fact he'd probably have about the same reaction as you did to 9/11. shiat, if my family were killed then I'd want to get back at the people who did it, any way that I could. It's like, Takeitdown's PINR article said - ...which further serves the inherently cyclical nature of events.

There's just going to be a lot more pissed off people over there if we go to war for bullshiat reasons. You ever paused to wonder why someone would want to become a terrorist?
 
2003-01-16 11:37:06 AM  
Personally, I want revenge for the attack on NY.

Huh? How will this avange 9/11?
 
2003-01-16 11:39:05 AM  
I am glad you liked that report, BigAl. Ever since I found that group I have been an addicted reader ever since. I heard about them on a Toronto radio program -- the main guy was speaking about the anti-American sentiment. They have reports in all different languages too.
 
2003-01-16 11:39:28 AM  
Great point, BigAl. I see a stroke of genius in you that I have not seen before!
 
2003-01-16 11:40:38 AM  
HARAKAT UL-MUJAHEDIN (HUM)
Islamic extremist
Pakistan, Kashmir (northern India), Afghanistan
Anti-Indian; seeks Islamic rule in Kashmir and throughout the world

Are their members called the HUMmers?
 
2003-01-16 11:40:50 AM  
There is an increasingly vocal movement that seeks to engage America in ever longer, wider, and more costly wars-leading to thousands and perhaps millions of unnecessary deaths. This movement calls itself the "anti-war" movement.
Across America and throughout the world, "anti-war" groups are staging "peace rallies" that attract tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands of participants, who gather to voice their opposition to an invasion of Iraq and to any other U.S. military action in the War on Terrorism. The goal of these rallies, the protesters proclaim, is to promote peace. "You can bomb the world to pieces," they chant, "but you can't bomb it into peace."
If dropping bombs won't work, what should the United States do to obtain a peaceful relationship with the numerous hostile regimes, including Iraq, that seek to harm us with terrorism and weapons of mass destruction? The "peace advocates" offer no answer. The most one can coax out of them are vague platitudes (we should "make common cause with the people of the world," says the prominent "anti-war" group Not in Our Name) and agonized soul-searching ("Why do they hate us?").
The absence of a peacenik peace plan is no accident. Pacifism is inherently a negative doctrine-it merely says that military action is always bad. As one San Francisco protestor put the point: "I don't think it's right for our government to kill people." In practice, this leaves the government only two means of dealing with our enemies: to ignore their acts of aggression, or to appease them by capitulating to the aggressor's demands.
We do not need to predict or deduce the consequences of pacifism with regard to terrorism and the nations that sponsor it, because we experienced those consequences on September 11. Pacifism practically dictated the American response to terrorism for more than 23 years, beginning with our government's response to the first major act of Islamic terrorism against this country: when Iranian mobs held 52 Americans hostage for 444 days at the American embassy in Tehran. In response to that and later terrorist atrocities, American Presidents sought to avoid military action at all costs-by treating terrorists as isolated criminals and thereby ignoring the role of the governments that support them, or by offering diplomatic handouts to terrorist states in hopes that they would want to be our friends. With each pacifist response it became clearer that the most powerful nation on Earth was a paper tiger-and our enemies made the most of it.
After years of American politicians acting like peaceniks, Islamic terrorism had proliferated from a few gangs of thugs to a worldwide scourge-making possible the attacks of September 11.
It is an obvious evasion of history and logic for the advocates of pacifism to label themselves "anti-war," since the policies they advocate necessarily invite escalating acts of war against anyone who practices them. Military inaction sends the message to an aggressor-and to other, potential aggressors-that it will benefit by attacking the United States. To whatever extent "anti-war" protesters influence policy, they are not helping to prevent war; they are acting to make war more frequent and deadly, by making our enemies more aggressive, more plentiful, and more powerful.
The only way to deal with militant enemies is to show them unequivocally that aggression against the United States will lead to their destruction. The only means of imparting this lesson is overwhelming military force-enough to defeat and incapacitate the enemy. Had we annihilated the Iranian regime 23 years ago, we could have thwarted Islamic terrorism at the beginning, with far less cost than will be required to defeat terrorism today.
And if we fail to use our military against state sponsors of terrorism today, imagine the challenge we will face five years from now when Iraq and Iran possess nuclear weapons and are ready to disseminate them to their terrorist minions. Yet such a world is the goal of the "anti-war" movement.
The suicidal stance of peaceniks is no innocent error or mere overflow of youthful idealism. It is the product of a fundamentally immoral commitment: the commitment to ignore reality-from the historical evidence of the consequences of pacifism to the very existence of the violent threats that confront us today-in favor of the wish that laying down our arms will achieve peace somehow.
Those of us who are committed to facing the facts should condemn these peaceniks for what they really are: warmongers for our enemies.
 
2003-01-16 11:41:39 AM  
My bumper sticker idea:

[image from 216.136.200.194 too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 11:43:54 AM  
Blumf:

Just to dispel any notion that I am "Clint Eastwoodish."
 
2003-01-16 11:44:23 AM  
The average Iraqi is so afraid of Hussein's spies and death squads that he'll forgive us when it's all over and he can speak without watching his every word.

Jihad: a movement for peace, so long as all the world is either muslim or dhimmi. I think the Journal's response to Sheryl Crow is justified.
 
2003-01-16 11:44:51 AM  
You ever paused to wonder why someone would want to become a terrorist?

Great question BigAl! No, I do not ponder such questions, because I'm an idiot, I like things blak and white, cut and dry if you will. Either you're a good guy, or a bad guy. Simple rule of thumb, if you wear black you be bad, if you wear white you be good. ta-da! See, simple, I need simplicity, it makes life so much easier to digest. Thats why in ingest mass amounts of drugs and "Joe Millionaire", it dulls the pain of reality.

/sarcasm
 
2003-01-16 11:46:09 AM  
IMYHO: Wars have always been fought over resources, money, land and power. Religious furvor is what gets the common man to lay down his life and fight for what he "believes" in. People wouldn't fight if they knew it was really about oil, or gold mines (like the ones recently discovered in Chile who incidently now is harboring terrorists according to the US) or land or pipelines or drug routes. Tell them someone doesn't hold the same religous values as they do and they're gung ho.
 
2003-01-16 11:47:05 AM  
Now I get it. All this time I've been thinking that the members of Islamic Jihad were intentionally killing all those Isreali women and children. But in reality, they were suffering and trying to determine their inner identity. The dynamite they strapped to their bodies and exploded was in order to resolve this inner conflict.

If those damn Isreali's would just understand this, the world would be a better place.
 
2003-01-16 11:47:56 AM  
Wow, it's fun to see that we have so many experts in Middle Eastern politics and terrorism forensics!

Not to mention all the mental health professionals who apparently have nothing better to do all day than peruse Fark and point out to us that GWB is (pick one of:) retarded, dyslexic, insane, and calculating. Sometimes all at once, too!
 
2003-01-16 11:48:31 AM  
01-16-03 11:33:23 AM AbbaDabba
ZZZXZZZ, what did Saddam have to do with 9/11?????

what didn't he?!!

what kinda question is that?!! there is no proof either way yet
 
2003-01-16 11:48:39 AM  
Darkhairedgirl: That's so true. Diamond makes the point of religion being able to control people's actions for "their country" over their own family in "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fate Of Human Societies". You might want to read it, I think you'll find it eye-opening.
 
2003-01-16 11:49:11 AM  
Objectivist:

I agree with most of what you wrote, but if the US is going to use military force, why not concentrate on the Saudis (home of the erstwhile 9/11 hijackers) or Afghanistan and Pakistan (presumably harboring OBL)? Saddam seems to be happily suppressing dissent and gassing Kurds while giving little thought to 9/11 beyond applauding it.
 
2003-01-16 11:50:26 AM  
Millay
"Just to dispel any notion that I am 'Clint Eastwoodish.'"

Ah, so does that make you more like John Wayne? :)
 
2003-01-16 11:52:00 AM  
Blumf:

No, pilgrim, it doesn't. :)
 
2003-01-16 11:52:24 AM  
Millay

I think the US should go after Iran first because they are the center of Islamic Fundamentalism and that is what were at war with. Then palestine. We need to be a true ally to Israel.
 
2003-01-16 11:53:29 AM  
Ignorance, oppression, poverty, no hope for the future, thats what breeds terrorists and in a lesser form, anti-social behavior. We have a large group of Americans living in abject poverty who commit hanious and seemingly unjustifiable crimes everyday. Why? They ain't got nothing to lose! Give them some thing to lose, such as dignity and hope, and they might react differently. Well, unless they are Muslims, cuz you know, thats just a farked up religion of death and destruction! hahahahahha, no.
 
2003-01-16 11:54:25 AM  
ZZZXZZZ
"what didn't he?!!

what kinda question is that?!! there is no proof either way yet
"

Well I just think you are an utter bastard for helping in the 9-11 attacks. It's just makes me sick to think that you actually help those people murder thousands.

No I don't have any proof either but since you're ignoring reality...

P.S. Saddam hates Al-quida/OBL almost as much as he hates the US and the feeling is mutual.
 
2003-01-16 11:54:52 AM  
Beefoe,

Maybe if those "damn Israelis" wouldn't force the Palestinians to live in such horrid conditions, you wouldn't have suicide bombs.

Go take a trip to Israel yourself and see how the Palestinians live. Worse than America's ghettos, which are almost worse than many third world countries.
 
2003-01-16 11:56:14 AM  
You see, people like Objectivist believe that their ideas should be implemented throughout the world, even if that means using weapons and war to accomplish it.

He is the type of person, just like those in many governments around the world, who try to make others live like they want them to live.
 
2003-01-16 11:56:52 AM  
Voodoochild -- sure, terrorism is caused by poverty! That's why there's so much unrest in North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc.

/sarcasm
 
2003-01-16 11:57:30 AM  
HATE GROUPS IN CALIFORNIA

City Chapter Group

Alameda National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Alleghany National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Big Bear World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Calpella National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Carmichael World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Compton Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Costa Mesa Blood and Honour Other
Costa Mesa Women for Aryan Unity Other
Fallbrook White Aryan Resistance Neo-Nazi
Fresno SS Enterprise Neo-Nazi
Hemet Hammerskin Nation Racist Skinhead
Lawndale House of David Black Separatist
Long Beach Aryan Nations Neo-Nazi
Los Angeles Jewish Defense League Other
Los Angeles Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Monrovia National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Newport Beach Imperial Klans of America Ku Klux Klan
Newport Beach Institute For Historical Review Other
Novato European American Unity and Rights Organization Other
Oakland Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Orange Cove World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Palo Alto National Skinhead Front Racist Skinhead
Pomona Nation of Islam Black Separatist
Redding National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Reseda National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Riverside National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Riverside National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Sacramento Council of Conservative Citizens Other
Sacramento National Alliance Neo-Nazi
San Bernardino National Alliance Neo-Nazi
San Diego Hammerskin Nation Racist Skinhead
San Diego Nation of Islam Black Separatist
San Diego National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
San Diego Vinland Records Other
San Francisco Nation of Islam Black Separatist
San Francisco National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
San Jose League of the South Neo-Confederate
Sherman Oaks Voice of Citizens Together Other
Sierra Madre World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Tehachapi World Church of the Creator Neo-Nazi
Thousand Oaks National Alliance Neo-Nazi
Yucaipa Aryan Action Racist Skinhead
 
2003-01-16 11:58:03 AM  
Jewing

The conditions they live in is not because of Israel. They have the PLO to thank for that. Israel has been acting in its own self defense since 1948.
 
2003-01-16 11:58:13 AM  
Voodoochild: I concur. Don't forget the effect of globalization and corporate corruption in many "third-world" countries that breeds a lot of hate towards laisez-faire capitalism.
 
2003-01-16 11:59:59 AM  
Objectivist: I wonder what version of history you are reading.

Plenty of Israeli historians, such as Benny Morris, have documented that the Israeli government made life as miserable as possible in the Occupied Territories in the hopes that Palestinians would leave and move to Jordan.

I think you need to read some more books, such as Benny Morris' Righteous Victims. Or Avi Shlaim's the Iron Wall.
 
2003-01-16 12:00:35 PM  
Terrorism is caused by the stupidity of the people and the madness of those who lead them.

If poverty lead to violence Iraq would be awash in riotous blood already.
 
2003-01-16 12:00:52 PM  
Great point, Rogue.

We just witnessed that in Brazil, where the country voted in a leftist to protest U.S. policies and globalization on their country.
 
2003-01-16 12:01:46 PM  
Takeitdown

Where do you get off saying I want everyone around the world to live like I want them to. I don't care how anyone lives as long as there not aggressor. There is a huge difference between self defense and the intiation of force. I also notice you have no argument against any ideas I've presented just personal jabs at me. It shows that you have nothing to say!!
 
2003-01-16 12:02:33 PM  
Sigh,

I just can't help myself. Here is a little story and a question (along with a summary for the those who miss the point) Then I'm going to eat lunch for an hour. Then I'll argue back if you like.

Little Johnny is playing with his ball in the front yard. It is a nice red ball. Ooops the ball bounces in the street and Little Johnny goes after it while cars are speeding at 45 in a 25 mile an hour zone. Johnny is too small for these cars to notice (for whatever reason it just helps the story). You are standing on the sidewalk as little Johnny runs by. You notice he may (will) get hit if he runs in the street. Do you say, "I gotta save that kid before he gets hit!" Then you grab Little Johnny thereby saving his life. Or do you say, "Well he might get hit, he might not. If he gets hit I'll do something then." And watch as he is knocked out of his Keds and into ground beef.

Most people would save him before he gets hit. Here is a summation for those who don't get it (you know who you are)

Little Johnny = "World Peace, innocent lives, prosperity"
Speeding cars = "Iraq, terrorists, etc. . ."
Choice one = "Gotta stop bad things before they happen. . .At possible personal risk."
Choice two = "We don't have a good enough reason to act yet. When something bad happens maybe we can save him then."

War with Iraq is preemptive to stop bad things from happening while it is dangerous it may be neccessary. The stance that there is no good reason to fight yet let's wait equals reactive. Once Johnny is car burger you can't unburger him.
 
2003-01-16 12:02:45 PM  
Objectivist:

Who is Iraq aggressing against right now? In fact, it is only the United States who is aggressing against IRaq. Does that mean that the world has the right to drop cluster bombs on the United States?
 
2003-01-16 12:05:06 PM  
Darkhairedgirl: I'm glad it wasn't my "good morning" that pissed you off enough to leave for a bit... had me wondering for a second.

Regarding fighting: Soldiers fight for the guy in trenches next to them. My Dad's a vet and when the shiat hit, it was all about taking care of each other. All the political ramblings ment nothing when the bullets started flying. Morale and questioning "why" in the off hours was another matter though.

Although from my Dad's old photo albums (Vietnam) it looks like they spent their off duty time sunning themselves, smoking and visiting the bars and hitting on girls.
 
2003-01-16 12:05:49 PM  
The hell with all the B.S., lets just hurry and bomb Iraq while the human shields are still in place
 
2003-01-16 12:06:25 PM  
Jewing
Beefoe,

Maybe if those "damn Israelis" wouldn't force the Palestinians to live in such horrid conditions, you wouldn't have suicide bombs.

Go take a trip to Israel yourself and see how the Palestinians live. Worse than America's ghettos, which are almost worse than many third world countries.


Not that the Palestinian terrorists help things at all. Suicide bombing innocent civilians is not going to encourage their targets to think reasonably about things. A sustained dose of peaceful protest and they'd almost certainly end up with what they wanted through international pressure. Well, it worked for Ghandi at least.

I think the situation is pretty evenly split on the blame stakes. It's just the civilians on both sides that end up getting the raw deal, bought on by a minority of 'eye for an eye' types on both sides. Another fine example of one of those self-feeding conflicts. In other words, someone really needs to back down/change tactics before it's too late.
 
2003-01-16 12:06:26 PM  
Darkhairedgirl
What is a cool and beautiful girl like you doing in Houston of all places.........I though all the cool people left. As far as the impending war with Iraq goes I for one need a little more proof. It's starting to feel like Orwells 1984 around here. I am just waiting for my government mandated happy pills.
 
2003-01-16 12:07:13 PM  
Clevershark
Voodoochild -- sure, terrorism is caused by poverty! That's why there's so much unrest in North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc.

/sarcasm

Hey genius, those poor and stupid people who haven't seen anything but misery in their miserable little lives are much more likely to buy into whatever is being sold to them by genuinely evil people like Osama Bin Diksukin. You know if they had a job and a home and maybe a Wega TV to watch the soccer game on, I doubt they would be willing to listen to some asshat like Osama.
 
2003-01-16 12:07:25 PM  
So Joe, you happy to splat little Jonny as long as he is Iraqi?

[image from images.ucomics.com too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 12:07:46 PM  
BigAl,

I am not saying that the Palestinian militants help the situation. I am simply saying that the conditions of the Occupied Territories is due to Israeli policy, not just militants.

In fact, the conditions of the Occupied Territories were horrible from 67 on, even though you didn't have suicide bombers back then (to any degree as they are now).
 
2003-01-16 12:08:08 PM  
Well first of all I already stated I think that there are other nations we should go after first. Secondly any government that funds terrorist groups that's only mission in life is to destroy America and Israel is an aggressor and we have the right to defend ourselves. Iraq also tried to assasinate our President, (Bush Sr.) that is an act of aggression is it not?
 
2003-01-16 12:08:25 PM  
Sthayashi,Blumf,AbbaDabba: Given enough time and support, we will dismantle the machines that create inter-national strife, if need be starting with Australia and ending with Zimbabwe! If you come up with a way to do this without casualties please inform your local government
 
2003-01-16 12:10:18 PM  
Let us also not forget that suicide bombing has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims.

One of the worst suicide bombing groups of them all, the Tamil Tigers, are Hindus. Same with Japanese during WWII who flew into American warships.

Suicide bombing is merely a tactic by groups who consider it the most effective means in fighting an enemy. Just or unjust -- the point is that it doesn't have to do with Muslims.
 
2003-01-16 12:10:23 PM  
One other tiny point:

If you had a friend who was crying into his beer "no-one likes me" what answer should a true freind give?

"Dont worry about it mate, they are all just jealous, lets go out and kick their heads in"

Or

"Well perhaps you should stop acting in such an irritating way"
 
2003-01-16 12:10:56 PM  
Blumf: if saddam hates al-queda then clearly he is on our side? they are all shiate
 
2003-01-16 12:11:00 PM  
Forget that bullshiat article.

This is the real face of jihad:

[image from idf.il too old to be available]

[image from idf.il too old to be available]


Those two images are the covers of "Palestinian" schoolbooks depicting splodeydope "martyrs" as heroes.

http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/0115-3p2.stm

Have fun, terror symps.
 
2003-01-16 12:11:33 PM  
Harmonia:

Nice cartoon. You have less new material than Andy Williams.
 
2003-01-16 12:12:09 PM  
Objectivist: Well that depends on how you look at things. The first Bush tried to assassinate Saddam Hussein. That is an act of aggression, is it not? Reagan also fired a missile and killed the family of Gaddafi in Libya. That is an act of aggression, is it not? Does that mean they all have the right to kill Americans?
 
2003-01-16 12:12:32 PM  
Wake up all of you its not about weapons of mass destruction or poor abused Kurds or mean old Saddam.
Its about War to the Knife; you take on our culture or die.
The US is going to attack Iraq to obtain a secure base of operations in the Mid East and from there eradicate the threat that Islam is to our way of life. Islam must change or we will kill every last one of them.
Us or Them I vote for us.
 
2003-01-16 12:13:02 PM  
Millay what have you got m8, George, lifelong socialist, orwell who died in 1950.

Its not if its new or old, its what point it makes.
 
2003-01-16 12:13:10 PM  
01-16-03 11:58:03 AM Objectivist
Jewing
The conditions they live in is not because of Israel. They have the PLO to thank for that. Israel has been acting in its own self defense since 1948.



Israel is in violation of UN resolution 1042 which states:1. Calls upon both parties to move immediately to a meaningful cease-fire; calls for the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian cities, including Ramallah; and calls upon the parties to cooperate fully with Special Envoy Zinni, and others, to implement the Tenet security work plan as a first step towards implementation of the Mitchell Committee recommendations, with the aim of resuming negotiations on a political settlement;
2. Reiterates its demand in resolution 1397 (2002) of 12 March 2002 for an immediate cessation of all acts of violence, including all acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction;
3. Expresses support for the efforts of the secretary-general and the special envoys to the Middle East to assist the parties to halt the violence and to resume the peace process;
4. Decides to remain seized of the matter.


And resolution 242 which states:(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

2. Affirms further the necessity

(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

I'm not saying suicide bombings are justified. I'm just trying to reiterate that wrongs have been done by both sides.
I'm sure people would be pissed off enough if they knew how much money the US gives to Israel every year instead of spending that same money to improve the situation here in the States....that money is coming straight from the taxpayers, you and I. Averageing out to about $20k per Israeli citizen every year. I can cite figures if you like, but otherwise I think I'll make this my last statement in this thread unless someone provokes me.
*grin* And no that wasn't an open invitation. =)
 
2003-01-16 12:13:15 PM  
Another well reasoned and written editoral cast in front of the swine.
Americas upcoming attack is nothing more than home invasion and theft of resources by criminals. They only thing that is for sure is that America is a drunken, arrogant, stupid monster that is parasitcally preying on the whole innocent chain of life. There are two major terrorist groups with weapons of mass destruction in the world the Americans and the Israelis. Lets us stop those minor despots like Saddam after the creatures that have created them are removed. This continued exercise of the Kissenger Doctrine to manipulate the people of the United States and indirectly the world is a criminal fraud to be punished. Wake up sheeple you have far bigger things to worry about than Saddam, and those things have no regard or respect for you whatsoever.
 
2003-01-16 12:13:20 PM  
NoPopNoStyle,

Why don't you take a look at Israeli school books? They are nearly as bad. I know because I grew up there.
 
2003-01-16 12:14:34 PM  
No pop, you really expect us to take a site run by the Israeli army seriously?

I mean they have no axe to grind now have they, perhaps you could follow it up with the KKK's view of Nelson Mandela.
 
2003-01-16 12:14:34 PM  
Harmonia:

One other tiny point--if you had a friend that was raped, what would the true friend say?

"It's your fault--look what you were wearing, you slut"

or perhaps

"People can do bad things, but we can only hope they're caught and never do it again."
 
2003-01-16 12:14:51 PM  
Takeitdown

Do you think there is a difference between self defense and initiating force?
 
2003-01-16 12:15:13 PM  
NoPopNoStyle,

So shouldn't we try to understand why they feel this way, rather than slaughtering them all?

Eh, you're right, it's easier to just press a button and turm them all into a viscous slurry.

Plus questioning things makes me un'merican and a terra-ist.
 
2003-01-16 12:15:36 PM  
NoPop

That looks like some scary shiat.

I say we go try to negotiate with 'em. Any takers?
 
2003-01-16 12:16:15 PM  
Millay, you know fine well I have always condemned the 9-11 atrocity, killing civilians is not excusable.

However I dont see how you can condemn 9-11 when you plan to recreate the same carnage in Baghdad.
 
2003-01-16 12:16:44 PM  
Secondly any government that funds terrorist groups that's only mission in life is to destroy America and Israel is an aggressor and we have the right to defend ourselves.

So exactly when did the U.S. and Israel become one in the same?


/waiting to be labeled anti-semitic
 
2003-01-16 12:16:48 PM  
JoeQBoo
[snip silly story]
"Speeding cars = 'Iraq, terrorists, etc. . .'"

Well in this analogy Iraq would actually be a car parked by the side of the road with a wheel clamp on it. However the owner does have a bunch of unpaid speeding tickets.

Meanwhile the Pyongyang SUV is allowed to do 100+mph whilst the cops look the other way and the '78 Al-quida with the leaky head gastket and worn breaks is still on the road even after its nasty run in last year.

Little Johnny is actually a spoilt brat who regually bullies smaller kids at school, when he doesn't get his favorite drink on demand (Sunny Crude) he stamps and screams. He's also been pestering for a BB gun for his birthday, the neighbours are worried about that.
 
2003-01-16 12:17:21 PM  
OBjectivist:

Of course there is a difference. And that is my point. The United States has been initiating force over and over throughout history. They have reacted in self defense, as seen in Afghanistan, but they usually initiate force.

Would you like me to list some of the military conflicts the U.S. has been involved in in the last 50 years? It will blow your mind.

The U.S. initiated force in Chile, when it overthrew a democratically elected government and installed a brutal killer by the name of General Augusto Pinochet. That's just one example.
 
2003-01-16 12:17:39 PM  
Jewing
Notice how Avi Shlaim ignores the atrocities committed by the arabs before and after 48 , he simply blames the israelis for everything , Benny Morris' book is a laughing matter for historians , he ignores many issues simply because he didn't have access to the IDF and Hagganah archives at that time.
I suggest you read 'Myths and Facts: a guide to the israeli-arab conflict' instead.
 
2003-01-16 12:18:00 PM  
Harmonia:

The cartoon makes the "if my aunts had balls, she'd be my uncle" point. Hardly a hard-hitting and incisive point. If I was 7'6" I'd be in the NBA and not law school. Feh.
 
2003-01-16 12:18:35 PM  
Not to mention, who do you think created the group Hamas?

Ahem ahem, the Israeli government. Well documented, well known.
 
2003-01-16 12:19:32 PM  
Whoooooooooooooooooo's your buddy?

[image from whitehouse.gov too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 12:20:32 PM  
Jewing I also grew up in Israel , i looked at israeli school books for 12 years and i think you are full of shiat.
 
2003-01-16 12:20:43 PM  
TappingtheVein,

Benny Morris' book is not a laughing matter for historians. He is read throughout Israeli universities such as Ben Gurion University, Tel Aviv University, and Bar-Ilan University -- probably others.
 
2003-01-16 12:21:54 PM  
Harmonia:

Surely you must see that the "not one civilian should die" doctrine is silly. I shudder for my country when I think of Lincoln or FDR hewing to that view.

BTW, the US flyboys who accidently killed the Canadians are being charged with manslaughter, a first. (Possibly only interesting to law students, but...)
 
2003-01-16 12:21:56 PM  
He is maybe a laughing matter for Likudniks.
 
2003-01-16 12:22:05 PM  
The 9/11 terrorist came from middle class families in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps hate-filled propaganda is responsible for terrorist actions. For me it is simple. If all Muslim clerics preach tolerance and peace there would not be thousand of terrorist. Why is the onus on American to conform their foreign policy to appease everybody? Friends, families, clerics etc. of terrorist have much more control over the message sent to impressionable minds they preach hate to.
 
2003-01-16 12:22:13 PM  
Millay, you reading some other cartoon?
 
2003-01-16 12:22:33 PM  
I don't understand why Israel can justify it's repression of an indigenous people (Palestinians) after having themselves suffered under the oppression of hundreds of governments, from Ancient Egypt to the Thrid Reich? How can the oppressed suddenly become the oppressors?
 
2003-01-16 12:23:13 PM  
Darkhairedgirl

The UN is completly worthless and Israels only mistake is that agreed to engage in a quote "peace process" The idea that Syria sits on the UN security counsel and has an equal vote as the US is an abomination. Before Israel was attacked Palestinians lived and worked in Israel there quality of life was much better. The conditions they live in now is because of Arafat and the PLO this is man that torure's and murder's people if they don't agree with him. He has completly brainwashed all the children in there schools. The palestinians living Israel actually had rights. A concept still never adopted in and Muslim nation.
 
2003-01-16 12:23:18 PM  
Harmonia: One other tiny point: If you had a friend who was crying into his beer "no-one likes me" what answer should a true freind give?

Tell him to stop being a little pussy.

Of course if you don't want to hurt your boyfriends feelings ask him why the spot of bother gov'ner.
 
2003-01-16 12:23:19 PM  
No one understands, Rogue. Because they can't justify it. They simply want more land.
 
2003-01-16 12:23:53 PM  
Voodoochild -- there are places much worse off than the usual "terrorist hospots" in terms of poverty who don't seem to be sending tons of people to either blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces, or to fly airplanes into large buildings full of people going to work.

A lot of the 9/11 terrorists were given large amounts in cash for their flying lessons. They were put up in decent places in the US and Europe. A lot of them weren't poor people before joining the murderous cause.

Then again I guess this doesn't fit in with your view of the world, so feel free to keep ignoring these facts.
 
2003-01-16 12:24:21 PM  
ZZZXZZZ
"Blumf: if saddam hates al-queda then clearly he is on our side? they are all shiate"

OOps, you're right, as a great American thinker once said "You're either with us or against us... cough, choke, gag... get this pretzel out of me! choke..."

And as such if a hates b and b hates c then c must like a. Its logical init!
 
2003-01-16 12:24:25 PM  
Look another Millay straw man!

Millay, it is moral to fight a war in self-defence, or to defend others. This war (as you well know) is neither.

It is also incumbant on anyone fighting a war to do everything they can to avoid killing innocents, Afghnistan proves that teh USAF does not give a shiat about casualties, they dont even count them.
 
2003-01-16 12:25:04 PM  
sorry to interrupt but this is just ripe for a photoshop.....

[image from iment.com too old to be available]

and create your own caption:

[image from scripting.com too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 12:25:24 PM  
Jewing , Morris himself admits that some of his theory is false simply because he didn't have access to many sources when he wrote that book.
 
2003-01-16 12:25:45 PM  
Harmonia:

No. "If I had been born here, we'd be friends" = if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
 
2003-01-16 12:26:05 PM  
What is the overall goal of a government today?
 
2003-01-16 12:26:08 PM  
"In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation.

The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code.

As Afghan schools reopen today, the United States is back in the business of providing schoolbooks. But now it is wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism. What seemed like a good idea in the context of the Cold War is being criticized by humanitarian workers as a crude tool that steeped a generation in violence."


http://www.cowlix.com/wcowley/log/cat_afghanistan/
 
2003-01-16 12:26:52 PM  
Shut up, thanks again for the proof that US conservatives cannot argue for long without the dumbass insults.
 
2003-01-16 12:27:41 PM  
Man_With_No_Name: Caption- "Don't Stand So Close To Me"
 
2003-01-16 12:28:51 PM  
Harmonia....

thanks again for branding people without knowing anything about them.

So you consider homosexuality an insult? Not very open minded of you. Maybe I should have said your Iraqi boyfriend?
 
2003-01-16 12:30:04 PM  
takeitdown

I'm not going to get into a debate with you over the US's horrible foreign policy over the last 50 years. Let's try to stick to the issue at hand. Islamic fundamentalism. They want to kill us. We have a right to defend ourselves. What part don't you get.
 
2003-01-16 12:31:03 PM  
On a lighter note:
This just goes to show that anything can be manipulated to suit a purpose. I showed this to my hubby last night and he couldn't stop laughing.


=)
 
2003-01-16 12:32:05 PM  
ZZZXZZZ --

Usually, preservation of its members, according to its perceptions of the current state. Mr. "Dear Leader" in North Korea, for instance, knows that nuclear blackmail is going to be a pretty good way to get what he wants -- the aid necessary to remain in power, and insurance against direct action by the US or others to depose him. Assuming that he has reliable safeguards against assassination, and that Bush isn't willing to sacrifice Seoul or Tokyo, the North Koreans have the upper hand there.
 
2003-01-16 12:32:11 PM  
Objectivist:

The part I don't get is the following:

By this logic, nearly half the world can attack the United States because the United States wanted to kill them. They have the right to defend themselves. What part don't you get?
 
2003-01-16 12:32:37 PM  
If the above link doesn't work go here and view it.
=)

*in a fes accent* : I said good day sir!
 
2003-01-16 12:32:51 PM  
Harmonia:

"It is moral to fight a war in self-defence, or to defend others. This war (as you well know) is neither."

I was talking about the inevitability of civilian casualties, not setting up a straw man.

I don't think the USAF is any more calluous about innocents than any other western power. We rack up the casualties because the US does the heavy lifting in coalition/NATO/UN operations.

I have to go to class, you should take this discussion up with the remaining Farkers here. Or not. Whatever floats your boat. Bye.
 
2003-01-16 12:32:52 PM  
My favorite Harmonia quote, regarding Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan, the day it started:

Harmonia:
"Vietnam 2"

Nope! Wrong again.
 
2003-01-16 12:33:35 PM  
oh geez.
just cut n paste it. http://www.farkitall.com/bsh/#
 
2003-01-16 12:33:49 PM  
I just reread Hyperspace by Michio Kaku, and among other things he states that maybe the reason we dont intercept EM emissions from neighboring civilizations is because they've wiped themselves out upon the discovery and implementatoin of the nuclear force. As most of us know the world almost plunged into a nuclear war a few times.

I think that the role of a modern government ought to include the pursuit of the formation of a global community. I refuse to believe that some nations must starve so that others may drive SUV's. All the effort we put toward offense/defense may be better directed at farming, education, research, space, It is the selfish greedy fanatical dictators that impeede the realization of such a Harmonian society. Hopefully by the time President Bush is finished, we will be a step closer to that idealistic world.
 
2003-01-16 12:34:29 PM  
Darkhairedgirl

Ok let me get this straight its our fault they hate us because at one time we thought they were the lessor of 2 evils. Because of this we do not have the right to defend ourselves and are at the mercy of insane caveman that want to kill us. Great!
 
2003-01-16 12:35:14 PM  
Smells like moooooselims...
 
2003-01-16 12:37:29 PM  
Darkhairedgirl
That school book thing is very interesting. Always nice to learn new things.
 
2003-01-16 12:37:34 PM  
Using "jihad" is just like the way campus Christians talk about "crusades" all the time. Are both references tasteless? I dunno, I'm an athiest.
 
2003-01-16 12:37:38 PM  
01-16-03 12:34:29 PM Objectivist
Darkhairedgirl

Ok let me get this straight its our fault they hate us because at one time we thought they were the lessor of 2 evils. Because of this we do not have the right to defend ourselves and are at the mercy of insane caveman that want to kill us. Great!



I'm saying if you support it, and obviously they did support it because they spent money (your tax dollars no doubt) on textbooks that promoted "jihad" and islamic fundamentalism, don't complain when it comes back and bites you in the ass.
 
2003-01-16 12:38:37 PM  
Darkhairedgirl

Where do you get off saying we want to kill half the world that's insane!
 
2003-01-16 12:40:21 PM  
I think that the role of a modern government ought to include the pursuit of the formation of a global community.

Well, that was one of the goals Hitler had in mind I think.

Personally I felt better back when the US was being accused by everyone of isolationism. Of course in those days I could see the World Trade Center from my window at the office. But back then isolationism was bad. So now the situation is very different, the US has gone all interventionist, and of course this offends the same people which were outraged by US isolationism before.

Fun, Fark politics.
 
2003-01-16 12:40:28 PM  
ok. I finally figured out why my url isn't showing up.
it has the word fark in it. only it's spelled correctly.

so here cut n paste and then turn the ar in fark to a uc


http://farkitall.com/bsh/

Probably one of the funniest political parody things I've seen in quite a while.
 
2003-01-16 12:40:54 PM  
J..just
I..incinerate
H...houndreds of thousands of
A...asshole muslim extremist jackasses that lick the
D...dunghole of their pet camel


HUAH!
 
2003-01-16 12:41:23 PM  
Takeitdown
Thanks for Nipr - added to list of things to read.

Anyway, home time for me. I'm tired.
 
2003-01-16 12:42:05 PM  
I'll never understand why other people aren't attracted by the workerist positions in general. It has a fuzzy non-intellectual feel to in general for one thing. And people like me, who make a hobby of analysing the way people use the limitations of linguistic expression to justify themselves, are generally considered the pseudo intellectuals associated with these positions. Previous pre-WWII generations often seem a bit more socially advanced than our own. Or at least the public side of society. More often you did not see the blind pro-nationalist sentiment publicly that we see now. People actually agitated for something different from the traditional situation and perspective and often actually achieved something. As an autonomist, I have less of a problem with those who have enough choosing to opt for the economics of failure with capitalism and going with a gradualist, opportunistic and in the long term haphazard approach to advancing the productive capacity of society. It's just when they try and force this on the rest of us that I become blindly and irrationally belligerent and bother to have some interaction with the incompetent passivist pacifists. In non-technical terms, capitalism just isn't sexy. It's relies on a pornographic puritansism to sustain growth here and there, but that gets old rather quickly. What is a "leftist" anyway? Someone who is probably going to amalgamate their position against war with that of group which by the standards of Eurocentric modernity is backward, primitive and vastly inegalitarian? I think I'll stick to anarchism or communism depending on how you define them. It's not simply about believing the always rational path is to assume everyone is irrational or controversly to assume that everyone can embrace peace and abolish differences by suscribing covertly to the platonic philosophy of transcendence and communion of values. You can pick apart the language. Hell you can pick apart the irrationality of the nation-state construct. (are the nation-states still the only autonomous actors when they are merely a shared invention of we leviathan dominated actors?- that one is directed at Gunhead even though most irrational nation-states would be the equivalent to five year olds versus a deranged psychopathic 300lb United States)

In short I would hope that "anti-war" activists were really "anti-idiotic, mannipulative, economic incompetence sustaining, statist war" activists, who are actually capable of being fairly violent when it comes to demolishing prisons for "property offenders" and eliminating state-sponsored police agencies. Well if it's anything you belligerent nationalists taught me, it's that violence for a better peace might not be such a bad idea if intellectually lacking. It's gonna take some kind of social cement besides fear of outsiders to set up simpler way to live. For some bizarre reason, our society in general has an easier time dealing with problems that require ingenious solutions rather than problems that require the most mundane ones. It's as if we expect that there must be some complicated means of working them out rather than the obvious disingenous solution. You may not understand the mechanics of your attraction to others, but you you're an expert at farking right? Same dif. Quit over-analyzing and trying to make everything conform to your esoteric idea of how things should interact(platonic form). Well ok you can't do that, but you can't you limit it enough to prevent farking, the world needs more farking damnit. Let the farking for peace and anti-statism commence and lets dedicate the money spent on the nationalist war effort to developing a cure for pregnancy (and herpes and other shiat.)
 
2003-01-16 12:43:24 PM  
01-16-03 12:38:37 PM Objectivist
Darkhairedgirl

Where do you get off saying we want to kill half the world that's insane!


I didn't say that.
 
2003-01-16 12:43:27 PM  
Voodoochild -- there are places much worse off than the usual "terrorist hospots" in terms of poverty who don't seem to be sending tons of people to either blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces, or to fly airplanes into large buildings full of people going to work.

1)Poverty is not the ONLY factor I stated, its never that plain.

2) I can't think of too many places more destitude than Palenstine. That place is being run by monkeys and the innocent on both sides of the fence are the victims.

3) Those "other" places you failed to mention, I'll assume they are the EasterBloc, poor African countries, and of course the Asian sub-contienent, haven't YET bought into the terrorism "solution" (no, I don't believe it to be a solution), but give it time. Lets keep up the jingoistic policies and rhetoric and you'll see.

So whats your pont? Its Muslims as a religious group that are to blame?
 
2003-01-16 12:44:42 PM  
Genericdefect...."I'll never understand why other people aren't attracted by the workerist positions in general."

Probably because their supports submit really long posts...
 
2003-01-16 12:46:59 PM  
How about: "Do it or go to the gulag."?
 
2003-01-16 12:47:50 PM  
01-16-03 10:31:10 AM Swami_dm
...
4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."
5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.
6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."
7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.
8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to punch back.


Never mind that Iraq didn't punch us in the first place. This is more like "somebody punched me and ran away, but we can't find them, so let's go punch this dude instead".
 
2003-01-16 12:48:13 PM  
Voodoochild -- nice race-baiting.
 
2003-01-16 12:49:12 PM  
Genericdefect...

still to long.

Nike gets there point across with a swoosh.
 
2003-01-16 12:49:43 PM  
haha great line Elwood
 
2003-01-16 12:51:48 PM  
VoodooChild -- Off-hand, I can think of only *one* current non-Islamic group of even regional significance that venerates martyrdom to the point that their own death is an method, not merely a indication that you screwed up or were sacrificed as a scout or rear guard -- the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, operating in Sri Lanka. Given just how many conflicts there are, worldwide, that should imply cultural influences, don't you think?
 
2003-01-16 12:52:04 PM  
its more like, this guy may have punched us, but that guy over there will happily give leasons and backing so other guys can punch us again.
 
2003-01-16 12:54:36 PM  
Korovyov,

Not to mention the Japanese during WWII. And the Vietnamese who ran up to U.S. soldiers with grenades in their hand during the Vietnam War.

This method of warfare is used when those who cannot fight in the same way as the aggressor try to find an effective way to fight back. Unfortunately, it is very brutal.
 
2003-01-16 12:55:26 PM  
Shut Up:

Then you better attack most of the world then since there is a huge wave of Anti-American sentiment since Sept. 11. Attack the South Koreans -- shiat, they hate the United States lately. Or attack the Pakistanis, where only like 9% of the population has a favorable attitude toward the United States. I am sure they are conspiring.
 
2003-01-16 12:58:49 PM  
Takeitdown -- Note that I stated 'current'. With regards to the Japenese during WWII, I think you'll also find that the triple influences of the Shinto faith, the notion of the divine nature of the Emperor, and the samurai/Bushido culture as heavy influences (on kamikazes -- heck, that word even refers to the "divine winds" that crippled a Mongol invasion fleet back in their past). As for Vietnam, there's a difference between suicide being a matter of policy versus an individual figuring out that he's trapped behind enemy lines anyway and doomed to die.
 
2003-01-16 12:59:02 PM  
ZachMorello....

Once again one of the sides needs to take the most extreme example scenario possible and pretend that they are making an argument.

Ya, thats exactly what I was saying, anti-american rallies and a 49% or lower disapproval are cause for bombing them...you nailed my point right on the head.
 
2003-01-16 01:01:42 PM  
"However I dont see how you can condemn 9-11 when you plan to recreate the same carnage in Baghdad."

Actually we're smart enough to drop bombs from the planes. Actually it's enviromentally friendy since we can the recycle the planes.

Reduce, Re-use, Recycle Right?
 
2003-01-16 01:02:32 PM  
Korovyov,

I am not referring to those Vietnamese. I am referring to the women who would run up to American soldiers, jump on them to hug them, and then explode. It was a military policy used in certain cases. However, the Vietnamese were much more successful in fighting the Americans through guerrilla tactics that they didn't need to use this strategy as much.

However, these days it is nearly impossible to fight the American military due to its technology. The only way to do it, many militants believe, is by attacking civilian structures or doing other suicide attempts.
 
2003-01-16 01:04:26 PM  
f*u*c*k Firas Al-Atraqchi
 
2003-01-16 01:04:42 PM  
And for those that still don't think culture matters with regards to tactics... please present us with a list of suicide bombings that the severely outmatched Belgians, French or Polish during occupation by the German Heer. Or, for that matter, how many Lithuanians rushed into crowds of Soviet citizens and detonated themselves after Stalin occupied that country with Germany's acquiescence.
 
2003-01-16 01:06:45 PM  
"Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9.

So that makes Bush.......the antichrist? I thought he went to church for heaven's sake - he should know better. jeez.
 
2003-01-16 01:10:31 PM  
I gotta run. A lot of you make good arguments, even though I don't agree with them. (Clevershark,BigAl,Darkhairedgirl,Korovyov, etc...)

Peace.

Oh yeah, fark all of those racist assmonkeys that pollute this site and the collective conscience of good people. Hope you find a cure for you disease.
 
2003-01-16 01:11:19 PM  
Takeitdown -- It's not an impossible task. If I were Saddam, I'd definitely look towards the cities as my ideal battlefields... and, if were absolutely convinced that war was coming, would probably try sabotage to disrupt the deployments. The US media has been cheerfully reporting how many troops from which units are departing from where, these days. That's not terribly relevant, however, since the main targets of suicide attacks these days are still the Israelis and the Sri Lankans... and the Israelis in particular, by using foot soldiers to occupy camps and towns as well as occupying fixed checkpoints, are naturally presenting a large number of /military/ targets. They may have tanks, drones and helicopters, but that doesn't mean that Israeli soldiers shrug off bullets or explosives.
 
2003-01-16 01:17:24 PM  
The difference I see in your suicide bombing analagy is that those examples, Japan and vietnam, where in effect a government propaganda campaign to get their people to do get that as an attempt to save or liberate a nation (from their perspective). And the governement could have stoped it.

Islamic suicide bombers act outside of government control, or Arafat could stop it. It crosses nationalities and boarders. Any local cleric can declare a holy war and ask youths to go blow something up.
 
2003-01-16 01:19:49 PM  
FLAME WAR!
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2003-01-16 01:24:58 PM  
Ahhh back from lunch,

Harmonia - "So Joe, you happy to splat little Jonny as long as he is Iraqi?" I would prefer not to splat anyone but since world events dictate a splatting. Better little Johnny the Iraqi than Little Johnny the American. BTW I like that cartoon good point I agree but it doesn't change my opinion.

Blumf - a car parked with Chemical, Biological weapons that they have used and suspected nuclear ones that have been hidden for 8 years. Are you American? If so, do you drive a car, use a computer (obviously), use electricity, watch TV, buy (or burn) CDs, use a road, go to the store, eat food that is wrapped in plastic or comes from a box that is colored, wear non-cotton, non-leather clothes, drink bottled water or soda, take any sort of medicine at all ever. If so then you are also "a spoilt brat". For all of these things depend on "Sunny Crude". And those "poor innocent victims of Johnnys bullying" would sure as hell like to strangle us first chance they get.

"Meanwhile the Pyongyang SUV is allowed to do 100+mph whilst the cops look the other way and the '78 Al-quida with the leaky head gastket and worn breaks is still on the road even after its nasty run in last year." -- Lets get them too. But I like your analogy.

I love fark. Bring it on those with different opinions than me and lets dialogue. Or we can just call each other names too, I'm fine with both.
 
2003-01-16 01:26:34 PM  
We're not on this planet for peace. Or Utopia.

Have you figured that out yet?
 
2003-01-16 01:29:41 PM  
these suck bags at yellow times are making it a whole lot harder for us rational liberals to convert these simple conservatives back from the dark side. I saw we throw them in a pit with Jerry Fallwell and Bill O'riley and put it on pay per view. I've never seen someone try and crochet someone else to death.
 
2003-01-16 01:38:31 PM  
JoeQBoo -- There's also the difference that Kim Jong Il has sufficient artillery and, probably, missiles, to devastate Seoul (conveniently not that far from the DMZ) and probably Tokyo (North Korea has, in the past, demonstrated its ability to fire missiles /over/ Japan. Accuracy at that range might be more questionable, but the Japanese probably don't want to find out the hard way.) Oh, and while that regime refuses to confirm or deny, it's suspected that they already have nuclear weapons of some form, in addition to assorted chemical weaponry. Ergo, it's a gigantic hostage negotiation; they know that the US could destroy Pyongyang, but destroying them wouldn't rebuild Seoul or Tokyo. Saddam hasn't attained quite that level of power yet, relative to his neighbors, and thus can be handled with less difficulty.
 
2003-01-16 01:41:46 PM  
It seems a lot of people talk like an invasion of Iraq by the U.S. is immenent. I am not one of those people.

Part of the problem is the 24 hour media coverage that is sensationalizing the situation. I think MSNBC has been saying "Countdown IRAQ" for 6 months now. It's getting sickening.

The US will attempt to use all of its power (economic, diplomatic) to resolve the situation before it comes to war. The US engaged the United Nations and won a unanimous 15-0 security concil vote that began the current inspection process. That process has an agreed framework for action. If the US was going to "go it alone", it would have acted after the first "material breach" (Saddam's report accounting for its WMD programs).

If the current rhetoric and military build-up is aimed at intimidating Saddam, it has the unfortunate consequence of stirring unbelievable anti-american sentiment throughout the world.

A major problem for the US is lack of communication. That starts with Dubya. He can't go up to a podium without mentioning the "War on Terror (tm)" or Weapons of Mass Destruction, because he thinks it will gain him political points at home. We need to send Powell out to explain our position.

If there is military action, it won't be unilateral. I also do not think that 500,000 Iraqis will be killed. I guess these humanitarian groups have a crystal ball. I doubt too many Iraqis will risk their lives for Saddam.

Saddam's regime must go for the sake of its own people. Clearly Saddam has no intention on following UN resolutions and no intention on making the lives of his people better.

Surely any involvement should require commitment to the people of Iraq to rebuild and recover from Saddam's rule.
 
2003-01-16 01:43:15 PM  
I have read on these boards many times something similar to "Those guys are a bunch or farking asshats we should just round them up and kill them all because I don't agree with something I do."

This is about the dumbest thing anyone could possibly say. The great part about debate of this kind is that there is no one answer. It is possible for two people to spout conflicting ideas that have an equal degree of truth. Debate (of an intelligent kind) is what helps make this country strong and should be encouraged and no one should seriously think crap like that above.

Some famous practitioners of "They don't think like us let's kill them" Mentality (thoughout history).
The Nazi's
Al Queda
KKK
Israel
PLO
Stalin
Mao
Black Panthers
Both sides in Bosnia
Edward Mugabe
Earth First
Saddam Hussein
Irish Republican Army
The Puritans
United States of America Department of Indian Affairs
The Catholic Church
King George III
etc, etc, ad inf, ad nauseum.
 
2003-01-16 01:45:59 PM  
AdamK

Thanks, deek, now I gotta scroll horizontally to read posts!
 
2003-01-16 01:49:48 PM  
And that's Godwin's law invoked.

Thanks for stopping by, everyone.
 
2003-01-16 01:52:45 PM  
AdamK - You are such an ass dude
 
2003-01-16 01:55:51 PM  
Korovyov - North Korea also has China backing it up too. Iraq has no one.

I assume that Bush wants to get Iraq before he becomes a North Korea. I also assume that like in any war ever, there are those who wouldn't mind the oppurtunity to exploit the oil in Iraq. (I'm not defending it or condemning it, just acknowledging the existence) Like it or not oil is an important consideration. Our nation depends on it. Oil affects more than just yuppies (who are mostly liberal in my experience) in SUVs. More than conservatives who want to drill in national parks. If affects everyone in a society where technology exists. Until we don't need oil we will be forced to abuse other nations in order to keep our nation afloat. (Again I'm not condoning or condemning or judging just stating a fact).

For What it's worth. I would handle North Korea (and even Iraq) in this manner (and this is mostly peaceful). Flood their market with outside products, ideas, and culture. Increase the information available to the people in those regions, create a demand for health care, products and services that are lacking. Allow the oppressed to realize that there are other ways to live. Eventually, the governments will topple and change will occur. Most notably this happened to the Soviet Union. (Also works in Nations like Cuba etc). Of course there may be bloodshead but as President TJ one said "A little revolution now and again is a good thing. I keeps governments honest to the ideals of Liberty" May not be a direct quote and TJ said lots of neat stuff so I could be wrong.
 
2003-01-16 01:58:56 PM  
Boy I am the worst typist. I apologize for my bad typing, spelling, and sometimes my using the wrong words in my haste to get my point across. I hope you don't hold it against my point of view too much.
 
2003-01-16 02:01:53 PM  
 
2003-01-16 02:08:03 PM  
CrazyEdie (do you sell Tvs in Pittsburgh?) - I never heard of Godwin's Law. So I googled it. But I will keep it in mind in the future.

FYI

Godwin's Law prov.

[Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.


Wow look at that. Was I the first in this whole long argument? Wow. I was thinking of not using them as too obvious and cliche. If I had seen this before I typed I would have ommitted said Nazis. Sorry to spoil the fun. Does this mean that the fun is over?
 
2003-01-16 02:13:06 PM  
Oh good. I wasn't a quick search of this page revealed that I am about the 7th or so. But I do seem to be talking to myself.
 
2003-01-16 02:26:23 PM  
Anybody know why the comment boxes are huge? I blame it all on those lousy liberals who don't believe in borders language or culture. /crazy guy on radio
 
2003-01-16 02:28:29 PM  
Gotta love it. It's all about the noble souls fighting "jihads" of peace--but note that NONE OF THEM ARE MUSLIM!

Odd, isn't it?
 
2003-01-16 02:43:49 PM  
Jewing,
First of all, your anti-Jewish (or is it self-loathing?) nick is offensive.

Second this thread I believe is about Iraq and not Israel


That said I'll bite on your anti-Israel bias. How is it that you can justify the Pali's behavior using the idea that two wrongs make a right? The pure fact is that Isreal had treated the people living in the region called Palestine a thousand times better than any other Arabs until they became united to the idea of a Palestinian state, "from the river to the sea".

Does Black September mean anything to you? Let me sum it up. The British controlled region of Palestine was broken up into approximately 90% Arab state (that would be Jordan) and 10% Jewish state, that would be Isreal. This was not good enough for the so-called Palestinians who became terrorists in response. First against Israel and then against Jordan. The king of Jordan made sure that Arafat (an Egyptian by birth though he did move to Palestine at an early age) was kicked out and somewhere along the lines of 20,000 Palestinian nationals were slaughtered.

Now how bad do the Israelis look? Oh, you still think they are just as bad? Ok, then you obviously are so ingrained with bias that you will never see the actual truth. Of course your comment that Israeli textbooks are just as bad as Palistinian textbooks shows that bright and clear. The PA has made sure that terrorism is seen to be beautiful. To me at least that is pure evil and should be dealt with as such. Show me an Israeli textbook that calls Arabs "pigs and monkeys" and maybe I'll agree with you. You will not be able to do so because they don't exist.

The only way that society is going to become worthy of any sympathy is when the people who want peace overthrow everyone else there which is extremly unlikely to happen. Peaceful resistance, regardless of the consequences is worthy of sympathy. I know there is a number of Palistinians who would make a good peaceful resistance but unfortunately they can not be outspoken lest they be killed by their own people as "collaborators".
Please open your mind, there are a lot of views of any subject. I am well aware that Israelis may have done some unsavory things. But how is their behavior against people who wish them dead any worse, or even as bad as the people willing to go to any lengths to see them die?
 
2003-01-16 02:48:07 PM  
Its really easy folks. Everything America does, especially if in the name of Christ = Good. Everything anyone else does, unless they're Israel, despite Israel not being christian = immediately suspect, and therefore worthy of flaming death from the sky.

I mean, get real, these aren't real people we're talking about over there, they're foreigners. When Bush threatened the use of nukes in the middle east, all those "people" dying aren't like you and I. They're just not American.
 
2003-01-16 02:48:15 PM  
01-16-03 12:14:34 PM Harmonia wrote:
No pop, you really expect us to take a site run by the Israeli army seriously?

I mean they have no axe to grind now have they, perhaps you could follow it up with the KKK's view of Nelson Mandela.

Do you really expect us to take that Yellotymes crap seriously?

I mean they have no axe to grind now have they, perhaps you could follow it up with azzam.com's view of americans and jews.

Oh wait, that pretty much describes the content of your posts anyways...my bad.
 
2003-01-16 03:30:09 PM  
"There may be a few people like that about, but considering we had 400,000 people on the London anti-war demo and 1 million of the European wide demo in Florence, they are hardly any sort of significant force."

Using the "Million Man March" multiplier? Doesn't matter, if people in other countries want a voice in US policy then apply to become a state. Otherwise, stfu unless we're bombing your country in particular.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Who is Iraq aggressing against right now? In fact, it is only the United States who is aggressing against IRaq. Does that mean that the world has the right to drop cluster bombs on the United States?"

By all means, try it. If you think your country will benefit from the destruction of the US then go for it. Just remember, we also think we have the right to self-defense. If you think you can win, bring it on.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"No, Americans say that it is for revenge.

Those Muslims who feel that this is a holy war believe that the United States is attempting to destroy their culture and religious ideals. Therefore, they wage a jihad (struggle) against whom they consider oppressors trying to destroy fellow Muslims. I don't think that this is bullshiat."

Excuse me? We pretty much ignored Afghanistan prior to 9/11. After the Russians left, we left. No one is forcing them to drink Pepsi, Coke, or smoke Marlboro's. If they feel their culture is being threatened then they need to exercise their consumer rights and not buy any of our stuff. Don't buy any of it and we'll stop shipping it. Very simple. Don't like our movies? Don't watch them. Their problem is with their fellow muslims for buying into our culture, not us.

Also, I'm an American and I don't say the Iraq thing is for revenge. I say it's for several reasons. We can get a lot of oil by removing a ruthless dictator and gain an entirely new market for our junk all at the same time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"I wouldn't be so sure that the Europeans have no influence.

The fact is that there is a wave of anti-American leaders being voted into office all around the world due to the war on terror. It has happened in Brazil, South Korea, Pakistan and Turkey. In addition, the view of the United States around the world has declined drastically since 2000.

All of this affects U.S. foreign policy decisions."

Yes, it makes us not really care about them. Brazil? Who cares? We're supporting their economy right now. If those officials want to stay in office they'll jump when we say jump. They're not much of a player in the world arena so they we know we'll tolerate a little lip from them but not much.

South Korea? Again, who cares? Their lip is the primary reason why we aren't going after N. Korea so hard. Screw S. Korea, let em get overun. They'll shut up fast once N. Korea overuns them and becomes their voice.

Pakistan? What elections are happening there? That's a military administration and they're singing our tune just fine.

Turkey? No problems there that I'm aware of. They never say anything. They just nod their heads. If they start giving lip we threaten to close our bases and they get back in line pretty fast.

In essence... Who cares what the other nations of the world think? If they want a voice in our policy then apply for statehood. The US is so embedded in most every country's economy that all we have to do is tweak some economic strings when they get biatchy and they'll squeal then fall right back into line.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Since most firefighters in the US feel some sort of solidarity with the NYFD

So do those here, they also, strangly enough, feel for those in Iraq who would be incinarated by the USAF.

Funny that."

Here's what's funny. All the fire fighters I know that are against the Iraq war are homosexuals. Literally. Not sure what that means but it is interesting.
-----------------------------------------------------------
As for the cartoon, little Johnny's parents should have gotten their leader out of there sooner. We crippled Saddam's army so his parents would have an easier time doing it and they took a nap for ten years, instead. Now, we're forced to do it for them. So, my words to Johnny there... blame your parents, kid.
 
2003-01-16 03:40:49 PM  
"Who cares what the other nations of the world think? If they want a voice in our policy then apply for statehood. The US is so embedded in most every country's economy that all we have to do is tweak some economic strings when they get biatchy and they'll squeal then fall right back into line."

This is the problem. This is also the solution, NOT WAR.
 
2003-01-16 04:25:59 PM  
Rogue7 said: "I realize that wars are bound to happen and that it's just another way to thin out human populations and achieve balance"

Am I the only person who finds this total disregard for humanity scary? I wonder how Rogue7 would implement his 'balance' as president.

BTW Jewing hates Jews. He's on my list of jew-haters.

So far the list consists of Kilgore40, Bauer, LordChaos, Antisemantic, Jewing, Tarrant84, and Necro99. BTW this list is reserved for people who make obviously anti-semitic comments about Jews and not about Israelis.

Oh yeah, btw, the Palestinians are f*cking stupid idiots who fight like pussies. Why's that you say? Because they waste valuable explosives and operatives taking out farking falafel stands, purposely bypassing dozens of military checkpoints full of occupying soldiers to get to their targets. They have a huge wad of explosives and there's a tank on their front lawn and they have someone willing to die for the cause, but instead of hugging the tank tread and blowing it apart and disabling the tank or jumping up on the barrel of the turret and blowing it off they have to sneak 20 miles away and blow up a pizza hut full of families eating lunch.

Hezbollah managed to repel the Israelis from Lebanon because they actually used the resources at their disposal to fight against the occupying Israeli military. I have much more respect for them (despite the fact that they are now terrorist cowards) because they actually had the guts to go toe-to-toe with the IDF instead of cowardly suicide bombings.

And yes, suicide bombings are cowardly and stupid in and of themselves. Any farking idiot knows that you throw the bomb and run away, not blow yourself up. They just blow themselves up in the process because they don't want to get caught and have to live with the consequences of their actions.
 
2003-01-16 04:30:14 PM  
Oh yeah, Redfish is a jew-hater too. Jew-hater is better than anti-semite because then people can't biatch about Arabs being semites too.

Funny though how they never object to brown-skinned people being called 'blacks'.
 
2003-01-16 04:53:06 PM  
I'll stop at nothing to become more like Sean Penn.
 
2003-01-16 07:38:20 PM  
[image from skfriends.com too old to be available]

[image from images.amazon.com too old to be available]
 
2003-01-16 07:47:55 PM  
I like flamewars... too much studying to comment. DAMN YOU MEDICAL SCHOOL, DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!
 
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