okay then.

right-o

FTFA: Five former security guards from Blackwater Worldwide turned themselves in to federal authorities

*POOF*

We are now Federal Authorities!

Good, they should not be paid better AND treated better then our own volunteer troops. Hope this somehow comes back on Bush/Cheeney.

good.

Hang the mercenary scum.

Old black water, keep on rollin

Jan 21st I want to see some new trials.

The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.


Not so good.

Can't they contract the justice system for cases like this out to KBR?

amazing_live_seamonkeys: FTFA: Five former security guards from Blackwater Worldwide turned themselves in to federal authorities

*POOF*

We are now Federal Authorities!

Well played, good sir.

Nothing like a good ole fashioned which hunt right?

empty gesture

I can only hope that half of the hell we've rained down on innocent Iraqis comes back to haunt those responsible it.

Everyone who thought the war was a super duper idea back in 2003 should be put on trial right next to them.

Can't pardon them if they haven't been convicted. They're running out of time!

Captain Willard has something to say about this.

As much shiat as they caused, didn't Blackwater have a flawless or near flawless escort record? Always got their cargo, be it people or stuff, where it needed to go, didn't they?

Could have sworn I read that in some article a year back.

Theres some things that will never change...

Can't imagine anyone is really that surprised at what happened.

Mercs + Warzone + No accountability = Total Farking Mess

what_now: We're getting a new government. Hopefully one that pays attention to things like laws and such.

The law that they are being prosecuted under covers DoD employees, not state dept ones.

The US govt doesn;t have a right to try them.

tommyl66: Theres some things that will never change...

War. War never changes.

dahuka: empty gesture

I can only hope that half of the hell we've rained down on innocent Iraqis comes back to haunt those responsible it.

Including all American taxpayers?

Xenolith: dahuka: empty gesture

I can only hope that half of the hell we've rained down on innocent Iraqis comes back to haunt those responsible it.

Including all American taxpayers?

you can't really be that dense and lacking in common sense assumption making skills

or can you?

Headso: Everyone who thought the war was a super duper idea back in 2003 should be put on trial right next to them.

Yes... anyone that even suppored the idea of the war should be on trial.

OR..
you're just being your typical dickweed moronic self.

Blackwater guards
Blackwaterguards
Blackwateguards
Blackwatguards
Blackwaguards
Blackwguard s
Blackguards

/blagueur
/why won't that spaced s disappear?

AnubisMan: Nothing like a good ole fashioned which hunt right?

Which what?

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: As much shiat as they caused, didn't Blackwater have a flawless or near flawless escort record? Always got their cargo, be it people or stuff, where it needed to go, didn't they?

If you calculate how flawless someone's record is by ignoring how many innocent people they killed for shiats and giggles along the way...

...you're doing it wrong.

AnubisMan: Nothing like a good ole fashioned which hunt right?

Which hunt?

/works on many levels.

Thorndyke Barnhard: The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Pardon me? Oh no...pardon YOU!

gorgor: AnubisMan: Nothing like a good ole fashioned which hunt right?

Which what?

It's early man! Come on...

Was that wrong? Should they not have done that?

stlbluez: Yes... anyone that even suppored the idea of the war should be on trial.

Too big of a pussy to fight and too big of one to even carry the burden of the actions of those we send to fight so put them on trial right?

that's a new level of chicken hawk.

FTFA: "We are confident that any jury will see this for what it is -- a politically motivated prosecution to appease the Iraqi government," attorney Steve McCool said.

Um...I think it may actually have something to do with all those people that got shot.

The fact that the entire situation can apparently barely be investigated because nobody has jurisdiction is why you shouldn't do idiotic stuff like turning mercenaries loose lose in a war zone with no oversight.

So when do Bush and all his pals get their trials?

gorgor: Which what?

Why are you putting so much emphasis on the Hs?

/cool hwhip

vsync: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: As much shiat as they caused, didn't Blackwater have a flawless or near flawless escort record? Always got their cargo, be it people or stuff, where it needed to go, didn't they?

If you calculate how flawless someone's record is by ignoring how many innocent people they killed for shiats and giggles along the way...

...you're doing it wrong.

I'm not calculating anything. It was an article stating they had a flawless or near flawless mission success rate.

So argue with the article if you want.

Well you have to start the ball rolling somewhere.

liam76: what_now: We're getting a new government. Hopefully one that pays attention to things like laws and such.

The law that they are being prosecuted under covers DoD employees, not state dept ones.

The US govt doesn;t have a right to try them.

Oh good, then maybe they'll get off scot-free without ever having to answer why both the military investigation and the FBI determined that they killed 17 civilians and wounded 30 in an unprovoked attack. I mean, they're our mercenaries and we should be in favor of them being able to do whatever they want with impunity.

Dictatorial_Flair: Um...I think it may actually have something to do with all those people that got shot.

The fact that the entire situation can apparently barely be investigated because nobody has jurisdiction is why you shouldn't do idiotic stuff like turning mercenaries loose lose in a war zone with no oversight.

No, this is some limp-wristed liberal trying to make a politically-motivated prosecution against contractors hired by the farking government to do the job they did. If I sat on that jury I'd vote innocent even if the other 11 jurors were dead-set on their guilt. Fark that. The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do over politics is the day we cease being a democracy and just a bunch of partisan politicos. Fark you libs and your "impeach Bush" horseshiat. Fark you with a farking spoon.

While there obviously needs to be more oversight or something on this, if they let the Iraqis have them, count on losing a lot of their contractors.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: It was an article stating they had a flawless or near flawless mission success rate.

Given that Blackwater is a private entity and they can pick and choose the jobs they want to do, it's not surprising they'd have a good record of success. They just leave the dirty and dangerous jobs to those who can't say no.

They better hurry up. They only have until January 20th to find them not guilty on all charges.

AnubisMan: gorgor: AnubisMan: Nothing like a good ole fashioned which hunt right?

Which what?

It's early man! Come on...

It's always early in Alaska :)

Darconix: Dictatorial_Flair: Um...I think it may actually have something to do with all those people that got shot.

The fact that the entire situation can apparently barely be investigated because nobody has jurisdiction is why you shouldn't do idiotic stuff like turning mercenaries loose lose in a war zone with no oversight.

No, this is some limp-wristed liberal trying to make a politically-motivated prosecution against contractors hired by the farking government to do the job they did. If I sat on that jury I'd vote innocent even if the other 11 jurors were dead-set on their guilt. Fark that. The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do over politics is the day we cease being a democracy and just a bunch of partisan politicos. Fark you libs and your "impeach Bush" horseshiat. Fark you with a farking spoon.

psssst...your retardation is showing....

You might just get jail time after all!

*meow*

Edsel: Oh good, then maybe they'll get off scot-free without ever having to answer why both the military investigation and the FBI determined that they killed 17 civilians and wounded 30 in an unprovoked attack. I mean, they're our mercenaries and we should be in favor of them being able to do whatever they want with impunity.

You are the one who brought up laws and how they shouldn't be ignored.

First off as I stated before, the law that they are being prosecuted under doesn't apply to them so from the get-go this is illegal.

Second in the US military investigations, and FBI investigations don't determine guilt, trials do.

I don't know what went down anymore than you do, but if you going to rant about following laws you should realize that those laws don;t apply to those people.

Befuddled: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: It was an article stating they had a flawless or near flawless mission success rate.

Given that Blackwater is a private entity and they can pick and choose the jobs they want to do, it's not surprising they'd have a good record of success. They just leave the dirty and dangerous jobs to those who can't say no.

Makes sense. I have no real idea how all that works, just that they tried to make it sound impressive in their coverage of that tidbit.

I also heard it's because they fire on anything that gets withing a few hundred yards of the convoy, be it car, human, desert insect, whatever. Shoot first ask questions later. Kills way too many innocents, but it does get the job done I guess.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: I also heard it's because they fire on anything that gets withing a few hundred yards of the convoy, be it car, human, desert insect, whatever. Shoot first ask questions later. Kills way too many innocents, but it does get the job done I guess.

Merc outfits can get away with this since they often are not subject to the same rule of engagement that US military are.

Facing up to 30 years if it's the same group I read about on Friday. Hope they spend all that time in an Iraqi prison with Cheney and all the other profiteers.

For the defense.

Darconix: Dictatorial_Flair: Um...I think it may actually have something to do with all those people that got shot.

The fact that the entire situation can apparently barely be investigated because nobody has jurisdiction is why you shouldn't do idiotic stuff like turning mercenaries loose lose in a war zone with no oversight.

No, this is some limp-wristed liberal trying to make a politically-motivated prosecution against contractors hired by the farking government to do the job they did. If I sat on that jury I'd vote innocent even if the other 11 jurors were dead-set on their guilt. Fark that. The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do over politics is the day we cease being a democracy and just a bunch of partisan politicos. Fark you libs and your "impeach Bush" horseshiat. Fark you with a farking spoon.

You do realize they're only trying to put them on trial at this point, right? It's not like they're being summarily executed on hearsay. What would happen if US soldiers had done something similar? Wouldn't there probably at least be an investigation and trial before everyone kissed and made up?

I don't think blowing away a plaza full of civvies because they got skittish is what the Blackwater guys were hired for. I dunno, maybe it was exactly what they were hired for.

/I wish somebody would fark me. With anything really, even a spoon. QQ
//You offering?

Headso: Everyone who thought the war was a super duper idea back in 2003 should be put on trial right next to them.

Damn, there goes a good portion of Obama's cabinet!

Noah's Arcade: guards MERCENARIES



/Fixed, for f*ck's sake.

Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.

liam76: Second in the US military investigations, and FBI investigations don't determine guilt, trials do.

That is rather a non-sequitur, considering that I'm pissed that they wouldn't even have to answer the charges. I don't recall declaring them guilty. You seem to have a history of attributing things to people that they never actually said.

I don't know what went down anymore than you do, but if you going to rant about following laws you should realize that those laws don;t apply to those people.

We'll see what happens in the fight over jurisdiction. Since you don't seem to have any official capacity in this regard, I think I'll wait and see what the judge says.

I should add, if you want an example of a merc outfit, google Executive Outcomes.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Befuddled: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: It was an article stating they had a flawless or near flawless mission success rate.

Given that Blackwater is a private entity and they can pick and choose the jobs they want to do, it's not surprising they'd have a good record of success. They just leave the dirty and dangerous jobs to those who can't say no.

Makes sense. I have no real idea how all that works, just that they tried to make it sound impressive in their coverage of that tidbit.

I also heard it's because they fire on anything that gets withing a few hundred yards of the convoy, be it car, human, desert insect, whatever. Shoot first ask questions later. Kills way too many innocents, but it does get the job done I guess.

Blackwater are FARKING cowboys. Good at what they do to a point often with local legal cover and/or legal immunity.

As for the legalities of this case it mater not one Iota who has jurisdiction or even if they are found guilty. There will always be mercs and those who pay them. They will stack the rules in their favor, why the powerful need protection and you can't hire protection if the security forces risk going to jail.

Prediction, these yahoos will do time.

Blackwater or if its broken up a successor company will organize overseas and its business as usual. If the US government won't play ball The PMCs take their toys and play in someone else's sandbox (highest bidder of course).


Oh no, Oh no, Oh no
Yo Yo Yo
Oh no you didn't
Sucker tried to play me
But you never paid me, Neva
Oh no you didn't
Payback is a' coming
You will be runnin', foreva
Oh no you didn't
Until i get me vengeance
I will never end this mayhem
Oh no you didn't
I'm a mercenary
You ain't got a prayer, you owe MEEEEE

Credy: Noah's Arcade: guards MERCENARIES



/Fixed, for f*ck's sake.

Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're They are job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.

ftfy.

FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.

Credy: Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.

Blackwater = Private Military Company(PMC)
PMCs = Provide services usually of the military nature for money and other gains.
Mercenaries = People who engage in military conflicts for personal gain i.e. money.

So don't try to sugar coat what Blackwater does by saying they do "security". The government may have contracted them for security reasons but that doesn't mean that they should be able to provide their services with little to no oversight.

DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.

They need Blackwater intact. Sink Blackwater and it re-organizes overseas beyond our jurisdiction. The successor organization still be recruiting personnel from US military and other forces, they'd this time they'd be selling their services to the highest bidder whom ever that may be.

US loses the services of those personnel and some of those very same personnel may potentially end-up opposing our interests after we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them.

Wanted for further questioning.

This is what bugs me about Blackwater. They are no different from me, they are a private group, not a part of the US military, so why are they allowed to have military hardware that I could never have? They can possess brand new fully automatic weapons and more right here on US soil. If the pro-gun crowd is worried about being outgunned by the government, then why aren't they worred about being outgunned by groups that are completely independent of the government that can operate inside the US? Personally I am more worried about a bunch of yahoos with that firepower than the US military.

Darconix: The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do

We hired them to carry out unprovoked attacks, killing dozens of civilians??

liam76: First off as I stated before, the law that they are being prosecuted under doesn't apply to them so from the get-go this is illegal.

Second in the US military investigations, and FBI investigations don't determine guilt, trials do.

If only we had some place we could send men who carry out unprovoked attacks while being in a undetermined legal status. A place where we wouldn't have to worry about actually having to place them on trial.

DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.


nah.
lawyers and corporate types get rich or get to stay rich, and all that money trickles down to the rest of us, which is why we all live in this Camelot and swimm in gold. Have you not been paying attention the last 20 out of 28 years?

The evidence is there that this system works, you betcha! (plus brown-people blood is spilled to please Jesus! Win-win!)
/Palin '12
/Joe the Hired Killer fan

YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS.

*breath*

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS SS

whoa.

that was meant to be way more tongue-in-cheek. but very troll-y. sorry 'bout dat.

LegacyDL: Credy: Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.

Blackwater = Private Military Company(PMC)
PMCs = Provide services usually of the military nature for money and other gains.
Mercenaries = People who engage in military conflicts for personal gain i.e. money.

So don't try to sugar coat what Blackwater does by saying they do "security". The government may have contracted them for security reasons but that doesn't mean that they should be able to provide their services with little to no oversight.

Nobody is saying they should provide their services with little to no oversight given the sensitive nature of their services, but there is a differance between a Private Security Company and a PMC. Blackwater doesn't actively engage in military conflict, they simply keep the infrastructure of diplomacy secure in a warzone. It's not sugar coating, it's what they do.

If we contracted them out to go on raids or attempt to find Osama, then they would be a PMC.

While anyone should be held accountable, the facts surrounding this event are so politicized it's difficult to impossbile for anyone to comment on this objectively.

While we should support those who commit criminal acts to be held accountable, the idea of "retroactive discipline" has already crippled our government officers ability to do their jobs successfully.

CIA agents are encourgaged to get liability insurance before going on assingments. Kind of like saying, what we are ordering you to do and what is legal to today, can become illegal anytime in the future and you will recieve no backing or support from us and will be left entirely on your own, destroying your career, and put under the threat of incarceration.

That was partially the reason for privatizing these security assignments in the first place. Has much as they get paid it's actually cheaper to outsource it, if you had any idea how much of operation and how many resources are involved to take a military unit to go outside the wire and drive down the street; when a group PMC's can just jump in their truck and leave.

And what is apparent from many of the posts in this thread, the crippling of our ability isn't an unitended consequence, but rather thats the entire point.

Edsel: That is rather a non-sequitur, considering that I'm pissed that they wouldn't even have to answer the charges. I don't recall declaring them guilty. You seem to have a history of attributing things to people that they never actually said.

You didn't come out and say they are guilty, but this statement

Oh good, then maybe they'll get off scot-free without ever having to answer why both the military investigation and the FBI determined that they killed 17 civilians and wounded 30 in an unprovoked attack.

, to me, implies you think they are guilty.



Edsel: We'll see what happens in the fight over jurisdiction. Since you don't seem to have any official capacity in this regard, I think I'll wait and see what the judge says.

Sec of State isn't the DoD. The law is pretty clear on who it has juridiction over.

Befuddled: This is what bugs me about Blackwater. They are no different from me, they are a private group, not a part of the US military, so why are they allowed to have military hardware that I could never have? They can possess brand new fully automatic weapons and more right here on US soil. If the pro-gun crowd is worried about being outgunned by the government, then why aren't they worred about being outgunned by groups that are completely independent of the government that can operate inside the US? Personally I am more worried about a bunch of yahoos with that firepower than the US military.

When it comes to fully automatic weapons on US soil, Blackwater is bound by the same laws as you or I.

Blackwater is good at what they do, whether you want to call them "security" or "mercenaries".

This is bullshiat trying to convict them under American law. Obviously I don't condone what they did, but I wasn't there and I can imagine that it happened really fast and none of them knew exactly what was going on. I don't think that these guys should get to keep their jobs, but if you want to make this kind of thing stop happening then the structure of the military needs to change to make these guys less vital to our infastructure. A witch hunt for these evil mercenaries will not change the situation with our Army and private contractors.

Credy: If we contracted them out to go on raids or attempt to find Osama, then they would be a PMC.

There is also the issue that the state department along with the DoD under the blanket of national security often will not allow what we have our PMCs do, be known.

So for all we know we could be contracting them out for everything under the sun.

Which makes sense, since if you join the military today, you'll be doing 1 of three things.

Loading a truck
Driving a truck
Getting shot at

SchlingFocker: If only we had some place we could send men who carry out unprovoked attacks while being in a undetermined legal status. A place where we wouldn't have to worry about actually having to place them on trial.

Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.

Good news is that this limits some of the damage that Blackwater can do to America right off as a subversive organization.

Bad news is that unless the "emotional-investment" factor is defused by turning the Blackwater mercenaries against themselves by rewarding the reliable, trustworthy, and proven competent personal (in short, reward the best to give a reason to convert the rest) generously Obama will be unleashing a slow-rot force of disgruntled Blackwater mercenaries trained for terrorist attacks against America. The mercenaries will not admit personal fault as a team if the individuals do not feel as if their individual moral compass has not been pushed past even the obscene limits for mercenary behavior.

Mass-shaming them will only delay the inevitable.

Punishing all of the members of the generally amoral group for the actions of individuals is merely a time-delayed assassination of oneself.

Make the individuals feel happy for their efforts, make them feel proud to have served in the protection of the United States of America. Make them have a tiny highly-regulated level of officiality. Don't allow anyone to undermine this effort or the hotbed of experienced killers armed with top-of-the-line weaponry will become a dangerous insurgent force in America or the nearby nations.

crazytrpr: DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.

They need Blackwater intact. Sink Blackwater and it re-organizes overseas beyond our jurisdiction. The successor organization still be recruiting personnel from US military and other forces, they'd this time they'd be selling their services to the highest bidder whom ever that may be.

US loses the services of those personnel and some of those very same personnel may potentially end-up opposing our interests after we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them.

You read too many comic books.

The funny thing is that Bush just threw Blackwater under the bus. In his rushed attempt to screw Obama by signing the deal with the Iraqi government before Obama could, he gave away the farm. And part of the agreement was that Blackwater could be held accountable for all civilian deaths in Iraq that they were responsible for- and here's the important part- past, present, and future. Bush hung Blackwater out to dry.

Erik Prince's private army is now very very pissed off at a certain lame duck president.

liam76: Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen.

We had no problem throwing him in military custody with no trial or access to counsel for a few years.

Their trial should have been held in Iraq a week after the incident.

Blackwater 2008 version

Well, I killed an Iraqi and I'm ready for trial,
Justice Department is calling my name,
Neo-cons jumpin',
Liberals are Chest thumping,
No matter what happens the war stays the same.


Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,

Yeah, keep on shining your light,
On the my firefight,
Dead civilians never make it to the spotlight,
And I ain't got no worries,
Cuz I work for Dick Cheney, aoh!

(instrumental)


Well, if it rains,
I don't care,
I'll watch myself some TV,
Just catch that humvee that's going up suk,
Yeah, I like hear some gunship rotor blades and an A-10 chain gun,
And I'll be buying everybody drinks each kill.


Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,

Yeah, keep on shining your light,
On the my firefight,
Dead civilians never make it to the spotlight,
And I ain't got no worries,
Cuz I work for Dick Cheney, aoh!

(instrumental)

SchlingFocker: liam76: Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen.

We had no problem throwing him in military custody with no trial or access to counsel for a few years.

Hence there is established precedent.

Hassan Salman, an Iraqi lawyer wounded in the shootings, said that the "American judicial system, known for its integrity, should hand down [to] the perpetrators of this heinous crime against the Iraqi people nothing less than death sentences."

Glad to see the Rule of Law has reached the Middle East. The Sharia is such a fair, balanced system. I'm sure that absolutely no Fatwahs will be handed down if these guys walk. Or before they go to trial. Or during trial.

/Whut? It's "trial, conviction, then punishment"? Guess I missed that lecture in my Iraqi-League law school edumacation.

Damn, typo:

*...On my firefight...*

Here is my spin on things, and yes, I am prepared to be burned by the flamethrower that are farkers. Black Water is not evil, it just had a few people do some bad things. Just like Catholics had a few bad priests, and there are a few bad soldiers and Marines. Every group has their bad apples, it doesn't mean that the whole group is bad. Should Mercs be doing the job designed for military personal? Hell no, but due to lack of retention, and lack of enlistment, the military is forced to cut corners to get by, and accomplish the mission in Iraq.

"Privilege" is "private law."

Sounds like their privilege has been well and truly revoked.

chu2dogg: Hence there is established precedent.

Yup, there is.

I'm sure after some of the humane interrogation they'll be subjected to while in military custody, the Blackwater mercenaries will be more than happy to admit the crimes they committed.

It really is the best way to extract the truth from men who are responsible for killing while in a legally questionable status.

SchlingFocker: liam76: Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen.

We had no problem throwing him in military custody with no trial or access to counsel for a few years.

Who is "we"?

liam76: Who is "we"?

The U.S. government, coupled with roughly half the nation who voted for Bush the second time around.

SchlingFocker: chu2dogg: Hence there is established precedent.

Yup, there is.

I'm sure after some of the humane interrogation they'll be subjected to while in military custody, the Blackwater mercenaries will be more than happy to admit the crimes they committed.

It really is the best way to extract the truth from men who are responsible for killing while in a legally questionable status.

Well the Bush admin had (some) legal precedent to hold Padilla without trial.

What I don't get is why all the hate for these guys? What they did was entirely legal and supported by U.S. government policy?

You have no idea if they were shot at or not or were returning fire except what you read in a couple conflicting "news" accounts.

What you are doing basically amounts to a bipolar government policy of sending people to do a job that is legal today only to declare it illegal tomorrow because of political developments.

Do you have any idea what that does to the entire notion of the rule of law?

chu2dogg: What they did was entirely legal and supported by U.S. government policy?

What they did though while technically legal, is morally reprehensible.

One can only hope that nailing the smaller fish to the wall, might allow us to work our way up the food chain. So we can once and for all prove that the DoD has consistently hired mercenary forces in order to fund friends and circumvent rules of engagement during the course of a war.

The actions of which have lead to countless lives lost.

Magorn:

Go on You Tube, search for Blackwater sniper, and you'll see some lovely video of Blackwater troops doing just that. About 2 min out one of the two men in the sniper team says clearly ("Our ROI says that we are to ENGAGE, anyone wearing a green Arm band -they are with Sadr", and BTW since when are mercs only mercs iF they go on the offensive?

I'm not going to watch the video (especially with out a link) but are they identified as Blackwater in the video? (honest question) I've seen many youtube videos where often the guys in it are not who they are claimed to be. Realize anyone from Spec-ops to Marines can be in civillian clothes especially if they are a sniper team.

Always be skeptical of a youtube video.

amazing_live_seamonkeys: FTFA: Five former security guards from Blackwater Worldwide turned themselves in to federal authorities

*POOF*

We are now Federal Authorities!


I see what you did there.

Darconix: Dictatorial_Flair: Um...I think it may actually have something to do with all those people that got shot.

The fact that the entire situation can apparently barely be investigated because nobody has jurisdiction is why you shouldn't do idiotic stuff like turning mercenaries loose lose in a war zone with no oversight.

No, this is some limp-wristed liberal trying to make a politically-motivated prosecution against contractors hired by the farking government to do the job they did. If I sat on that jury I'd vote innocent even if the other 11 jurors were dead-set on their guilt. Fark that. The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do over politics is the day we cease being a democracy and just a bunch of partisan politicos. Fark you libs and your "impeach Bush" horseshiat. Fark you with a farking spoon.

If you sat on that jury, and voted that way, you'd be undermining America. So sit on your own damn spoon, moron.

AnubisMan: Nothing like a good ole fashioned which hunt right?

Which hunt?

That hunt.

IdBeCrazyIf

One can only hope that nailing the smaller fish to the wall, might allow us to work our way up the food chain.


Uh, they are not called "Cannon Fodder" for nothing.

They will be thrown to the wolves to satisfy everyones bloodlust while those who made the policies take a vacation in their yacht till it blows over.

Noah's Arcade: guards MERCENARIES


/Fixed, for f*ck's sake.

Just saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Blackwater is not a mercenary force. People who think that have no idea what a mercenary is. An armed guard is much different than a soldier.

Just because you see private citizens with guns running around a war zone does not make them mercenaries. They are not enforcing foreign policy, they are not launching offensive operations. They are security guards in a very lively environment.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, we're all what's wrong with America. We should all be ashamed of ourselves I guess.

IdBeCrazyIf: chu2dogg: What they did was entirely legal and supported by U.S. government policy?

What they did though while technically legal, is morally reprehensible.

One can only hope that nailing the smaller fish to the wall, might allow us to work our way up the food chain. So we can once and for all prove that the DoD has consistently hired mercenary forces in order to fund friends and circumvent rules of engagement during the course of a war.

The actions of which have lead to countless lives lost.

Guarding state department officials because they wanted to be seperated from the U.S. military is morally reprehensible?

So we can once and for all prove that the DoD has consistently hired mercenary forces in order to fund friends and circumvent rules of engagement during the course of a war.

Fiction.

Realize when talking over the interent, some of us have military experience and have had years of a working relationship with Blackwater and other PMC's and are very familiar with the role they play. Yes, I am going to assume YOU are just making ignorants statements based on what you've seen in a few internet articles, otherwise you would have realized how retarded you sounded just now.

FarkinHostile: They will be thrown to the wolves to satisfy everyones bloodlust while those who made the policies take a vacation in their yacht till it blows over.

I said one can only hope.

Keep hope alive, it's been working thus far since Nov..

IdBeCrazyIf: What they did are alleged to have done though while technically legal, is morally reprehensible.

I agree.

IdBeCrazyIf: One can only hope that nailing the smaller fish to the wall, might allow us to work our way up the food chain. So we can once and for all prove that the DoD has consistently hired mercenary forces in order to fund friends and circumvent rules of engagement during the course of a war.

This is the problem. They weren't hired by the DoD they were hired by the State Dept who didn't want their "high value" missions to be constrained by the military ROE.

SchlingFocker: liam76: Who is "we"?

The U.S. government, coupled with roughly half the nation who voted for Bush the second time around.

Voting for Bush doesnt mean you approve of how Padilla was treated. The Executive Branch overstepped their bounds and the supreme court set it right.

chu2dogg: Guarding state department officials because they wanted to be seperated from the U.S. military is morally reprehensible?

When soldiers are effectively forced from a job, yes it is. Using a PMC for what we train our military to do, is effectively outsourcing it. And at a far greater cost in dollars.

So, we have to ask... why?

The amusing thing is, this is just not limited to security detail. This sort of privatizing of the war is rampant throughout the entire war effort.

It has gotten to the point, where again. If you are in the military you are doing one of three things.

Driving a truck
Loading a truck
Getting shot at

liam76: This is the problem. They weren't hired by the DoD they were hired by the State Dept who didn't want their "high value" missions to be constrained by the military ROE.

I meant to add State Department to that statement, since they both hire private forces quite often.

chu2dogg: What you are doing basically amounts to a bipolar government policy of sending people to do a job that is legal today only to declare it illegal tomorrow because of political developments.

Do you have any idea what that does to the entire notion of the rule of law?

They weren't sent to kill unarmed civilians. They were sent to protect convoys.

The purpose of the trial is to determine whether they were acting in a legal manner in the killing of civilians.

What do you have against the truth being brought to light?

SchlingFocker: What do you have against the truth being brought to light?

Well if we are to believe his claim of working inside the intricate web of PMCs... quite a bit of cash and his job more than likely.

IdBeCrazyIf: chu2dogg: Guarding state department officials because they wanted to be seperated from the U.S. military is morally reprehensible?

When soldiers are effectively forced from a job, yes it is. Using a PMC for what we train our military to do, is effectively outsourcing it. And at a far greater cost in dollars.

So, we have to ask... why?

Ironically, the State Department's initial decision was to not be seen as militant as the U.S. military, since their operations hyper-stress force protection. They wanted a more casual security stance, civillian guys with guns, that didn't need to hyper-react when driving in convoys and establishing a security perimeter.

Also, the Military has alot of beuracratic constraints. It's a huge effort to bring a military unit out the wire, all personnel, weapons, equipment, sensitive items, have be documented, submitted to higher, have your route planned and approved, etc. etc. its a nightmare.

For simple security missions of having some civillians get driven around town to do their meetings its alot easier to have a private security team grab their rifles and jump in their trucks and take off.

Of course, telling all these things to somebody who sat comfortably in their living room the last few years, i don't expect them to fully comprehend the nature of all the factors involved.


It has gotten to the point, where again. If you are in the military you are doing one of three things.

Driving a truck
Loading a truck
Getting shot at

Once again, you prove you're an idiot.

crazytrpr: DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.

They need Blackwater intact. Sink Blackwater and it re-organizes overseas beyond our jurisdiction. The successor organization still be recruiting personnel from US military and other forces, they'd this time they'd be selling their services to the highest bidder whom ever that may be.

US loses the services of those personnel and some of those very same personnel may potentially end-up opposing our interests after we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them.

Then we should have a no compete clause in every soldiers contract. They go and work somwhere else, for another country, as a soldier/mercanary/whatever after serving in the US armed forces you are guilty of treason. And they should be sure to go after these people and hang them. Problem solved.

chu2dogg: Also, the Military has alot of beuracratic constraints. It's a huge effort to bring a military unit out the wire, all personnel, weapons, equipment, sensitive items, have be documented, submitted to higher, have your route planned and approved, etc. etc. its a nightmare.

Soooo little to no oversight.

Got it, just checking to make sure I was right.

So this is a good thing, eh? I think it won't change much with them.

SchlingFocker: chu2dogg: What you are doing basically amounts to a bipolar government policy of sending people to do a job that is legal today only to declare it illegal tomorrow because of political developments.

Do you have any idea what that does to the entire notion of the rule of law?

They weren't sent to kill unarmed civilians. They were sent to protect convoys.

The purpose of the trial is to determine whether they were acting in a legal manner in the killing of civilians.

What do you have against the truth being brought to light?

As i stated before, i think any criminal actions should be held accountable. But the tempers that are involved here are truly evident that much more is at stake. People don't want to see Blackwater employees brought to justice because they broke the law (as in killing civillians unprovoked, which we have no idea if that is what happened), people want to see them put on trial because they followed the law. What is at trial here is the very idea of a private security team operating in a war zone, a war they happen to not agree with.

I would expect that those who disagree with the policy of hiring Blackwater, would have respect for the rule of law enough that they would seperate that when determining the status of a handful of employees accused of shooting civillians unprovoked.

Based on what I am seeing, that is clearly not evident.

chu2dogg: What is at trial here is the very idea of a private security team operating in a war zone

If only we had some national sanctioned force that could handle security detail in a war zone......

IdBeCrazyIf: chu2dogg: Also, the Military has alot of beuracratic constraints. It's a huge effort to bring a military unit out the wire, all personnel, weapons, equipment, sensitive items, have be documented, submitted to higher, have your route planned and approved, etc. etc. its a nightmare.

Soooo little to no oversight.

Got it, just checking to make sure I was right.

Ok... I think now is the point in the thread where you realize you are outclassed and have no idea what you are talking about, make one last jab before you eject yourself and retreat to the newest Obama thread to take on some right wing troll.

omgamiright??

chu2dogg: People don't want to see Blackwater employees brought to justice because they broke the law (as in killing civillians unprovoked, which we have no idea if that is what happened), people want to see them put on trial because they followed the law. What is at trial here is the very idea of a private security team operating in a war zone, a war they happen to not agree with.

Nobody that I've seen here is saying that all Blackwater mercs should be put on trial, just the ones that killed all the civilians.

If the police in NYC were guarding the mayor's limo and ended up shooting and killing a couple of dozen civilians when the limo was attacked, wouldn't you expect an investigation and, possibly, a subsequent trial?

Whenever a bunch of civilians get killed in a police security operation, and they're shot by the security, something went very wrong somewhere.

The point of the investigation and trial is to determine what went wrong where and if anybody is criminally liable.

It basically amounts to they say they were shot at, the Iraqi's said they weren't. I believe some continued shooting while others told them to stop, although to be honest I haven't read up on the incident. Perhaps I'm a little sympthatetic to the he said she said account of combat incidents to give the benefit of the doubt.

Although calling them "mercs", or calling for the "death of mercs" (to paraphrase some of the language in this thread) really doesn't help your case that what you really want is just to see some Blackwater guys go down, regardless of specific case of what actually happened here.

Ahh fark, more proof that just because you can use a keyboard and get on the intranets doesn't mean you should.

I understand the need for crews like this, I know, it will be hard to believe but crews like Dynacorp and Vance were doing this same job long before Bush, even the other one, they were doing the same job even for... *GASP* Democrats.

I am also not one to judge these guys to hard, shiat happens, things go to pieces real quick and you only have a split second to make a decision that some knt can judge you on for the rest of your life.

However, putting these guys in the mix with no oversight and a get out of jail free car was stupid. I am not looking to crucify them because of the war or even hurting civilians, when you get in gunfights that you did not start with people hiding behind civilians civilians are going to get hurt, you do the best that you can to maintain fire discipline but at the end of the day it was not you that picked a crowded marketplace to cut loose in.

The problem here is that there is no signs of incoming fire. They sparked up a vehicle that failed to stop for a IP, it was not a VBIED but could have been, so as bad as it is that is forgivable. However, the resulting 17 dead and 30 something wounded while not under fire?

Our own military said there was no firefight, no weapons or even brass found amongst the dead. The contractors did not only have no injuries the vehicles they were in did not even get shot up. IP says they have a tape of the incident, hopefully, for the sake of these contractors, it will show some kind of incoming fire, something to justify that much gunfire.

If not, then I hate to say it, but they deserve to be held accountable.

chu2dogg: crazytrpr: DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.

They need Blackwater intact. Sink Blackwater and it re-organizes overseas beyond our jurisdiction. The successor organization still be recruiting personnel from US military and other forces, they'd this time they'd be selling their services to the highest bidder whom ever that may be.

US loses the services of those personnel and some of those very same personnel may potentially end-up opposing our interests after we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them.

You read too many comic books.

He he, but not so much, Sin City and Transmetropolitan are among the few I actually read.

Dude I was in the CAV, there was a small (fortunately very small) percentage that would shoot their own mothers for sh%ts and Giggles, let alone for extra cash ;o). Fortunately most of those a$$hats get chaptered out fairly quickly.

Why do you think contractors are used, in the long run its cheaper and the government has an opportunity to reuse those skills that would have otherwise gone into private industry or simply atrophied during periods of unemployment. This is especially true of commo and computer weenies.

Next on the hit list are personnel and finance weenies, believe it or not. A buddy of mine was a payroll clerk out at Ft Lewis, got out after 4 years and got a gig as a payroll manager at $60K per year. His degree wasn't business, accounting or finance related art or dance or some shiat. Even the army has to abide by HIPPA style rules, tri-care for dependents etc...and it does have a need for payroll accountants etc...

That said if market conditions exist to support PMC and Private Security Companies around the world. There is nothing to stop a company from being organized and talent being recruited.

When is a news organization going to have the cojones to drop this "contractor" euphemism and call them what they are...mercenaries?

mrsirjojo: When is a news organization going to have the cojones to drop this "contractor" euphemism and call them what they are...mercenaries?

"Contractors" are to "mercenaries" as "sweeteners" are to "pork".

chu2dogg: Ok... I think now is the point in the thread where you realize you are outclassed and have no idea what you are talking about, make one last jab before you eject yourself and retreat to the newest Obama thread to take on some right wing troll.

Nope, just reiterating what you said. Since you are the expert apparently.

A PMC was chosen over the actual military for security detail in a war zone because the need for less oversight and regulation.

Or do you not agree with yourself?

Apoe: tl;dr (not really)

That's pretty much my take on it too. The incident at least warrants a serious investigation. It's bad policy to have people running around with a guarantee of never being held accountable for anything no matter how heinous, because then stuff like this happens that can't just be ignored and no system is in place to deal with it.

/This?

manimal2878: crazytrpr: DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.

They need Blackwater intact. Sink Blackwater and it re-organizes overseas beyond our jurisdiction. The successor organization still be recruiting personnel from US military and other forces, they'd this time they'd be selling their services to the highest bidder whom ever that may be.

US loses the services of those personnel and some of those very same personnel may potentially end-up opposing our interests after we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them.

Then we should have a no compete clause in every soldiers contract. They go and work somwhere else, for another country, as a soldier/mercanary/whatever after serving in the US armed forces you are guilty of treason. And they should be sure to go after these people and hang them. Problem solved.

Most non competes wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on as impractical. How would you handle IT/crypto/computer weenie who goes to work for a UK bank in Shanghai or Macau? How are you going to stop him? How are you going to stop a former US shooter now a french citizen serving in the foreign legion? How about legit body guard work for some Brazilian celebrity? Or someone training security and police forces? How are you going to enforce it?

Iron clad non-competes would make military recruiting kinda hard for the 95% that would never due MERC work but may take their skills and do payroll for a bank. Also the temptation to make the Non competes all encompassing and iron clad would eventually make them null and void from a legal perspective as well.

In the civilian sector, courts generally enforce all but the most narrow interpretations of Non-competes so the worker can still be able to make a living in his chosen profession for any company he chooses that will hire him. Otherwise employers can have you sign a non-compete that amounts to indentured servitude or be unemployed. Not good from society's perspective, slavery was banned after the civil war for a very good reason. I certainly don't want some employer government, corporate or other latching on to a legal precedent set for the military.

/Hates non competes in general. Although they are useful in very limited circumstances.

Let me guess. There will be a token or two taken down just like with our little TORTURE gig at G-Bay.

/why are we not taking down the RESPONSIBLE ... the top guys?
//still ashamed to be an American

Here are details of the charge.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1208081blackwater1.html

It seems like they wanted to secure the area. By secure, they blocked off the road and fired at anything that moved and was in shooting distance, even as terrified civilians were running away.

I recall reading a TIME article, a lot of US Army guys were pissed, saying that the contractors basically see themselves as cowboys and feel the Iraqis are just 'Injuns' who they can treat however they damn well please. I can't really think of an easier way to piss off the locals short of outright raping and pillaging. Someone needs to be held accountable for this.

trials?!?
But aren't they unlawful combattants? I thought we were supposed to torture to death foreign mercenaries who go to Iraq/Afghanistan to fight.

No pity for mercenaries.

/None.

I pray that true justice is served...

Because when it comes to mercenaries, they are guns for hire - regardless of what country asks them to do the job.

Contractors are contracted to a specific country and is essentially hired force for that country alone.

Magorn: would you think he's old enough to run the fry machine on his own or do a brake-job on your car?

It's the "Final Boss of the Internet"!

Jeremy Scahill testifies to Congress (pops)

If you're interested, he wrote a book.

Dictatorial_Flair: Darconix: Dictatorial_Flair: Um...I think it may actually have something to do with all those people that got shot.

The fact that the entire situation can apparently barely be investigated because nobody has jurisdiction is why you shouldn't do idiotic stuff like turning mercenaries loose lose in a war zone with no oversight.

No, this is some limp-wristed liberal trying to make a politically-motivated prosecution against contractors hired by the farking government to do the job they did. If I sat on that jury I'd vote innocent even if the other 11 jurors were dead-set on their guilt. Fark that. The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do over politics is the day we cease being a democracy and just a bunch of partisan politicos. Fark you libs and your "impeach Bush" horseshiat. Fark you with a farking spoon.

You do realize they're only trying to put them on trial at this point, right? It's not like they're being summarily executed on hearsay. What would happen if US soldiers had done something similar? Wouldn't there probably at least be an investigation and trial before everyone kissed and made up?

I don't think blowing away a plaza full of civvies because they got skittish is what the Blackwater guys were hired for. I dunno, maybe it was exactly what they were hired for.

/I wish somebody would fark me. With anything really, even a spoon. QQ
//You offering?

Careful he might just add you to that list of 15 million Americans he needs to die to prove a point.