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(CNN)   Blackwater guards to be placed on trial after all   (cnn.com) divider line 149
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4974 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Dec 2008 at 11:17 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-12-08 11:51:04 AM
guards MERCENARIES



/Fixed, for f*ck's sake.
 
2008-12-08 11:51:09 AM
You might just get jail time after all!
images.dawgsports.com
*meow*
 
2008-12-08 11:51:27 AM
Edsel: Oh good, then maybe they'll get off scot-free without ever having to answer why both the military investigation and the FBI determined that they killed 17 civilians and wounded 30 in an unprovoked attack. I mean, they're our mercenaries and we should be in favor of them being able to do whatever they want with impunity.

You are the one who brought up laws and how they shouldn't be ignored.

First off as I stated before, the law that they are being prosecuted under doesn't apply to them so from the get-go this is illegal.

Second in the US military investigations, and FBI investigations don't determine guilt, trials do.

I don't know what went down anymore than you do, but if you going to rant about following laws you should realize that those laws don;t apply to those people.
 
2008-12-08 11:52:41 AM
Befuddled: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: It was an article stating they had a flawless or near flawless mission success rate.

Given that Blackwater is a private entity and they can pick and choose the jobs they want to do, it's not surprising they'd have a good record of success. They just leave the dirty and dangerous jobs to those who can't say no.


Makes sense. I have no real idea how all that works, just that they tried to make it sound impressive in their coverage of that tidbit.

I also heard it's because they fire on anything that gets withing a few hundred yards of the convoy, be it car, human, desert insect, whatever. Shoot first ask questions later. Kills way too many innocents, but it does get the job done I guess.
 
2008-12-08 11:56:11 AM
Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: I also heard it's because they fire on anything that gets withing a few hundred yards of the convoy, be it car, human, desert insect, whatever. Shoot first ask questions later. Kills way too many innocents, but it does get the job done I guess.

Merc outfits can get away with this since they often are not subject to the same rule of engagement that US military are.
 
2008-12-08 11:56:18 AM
Facing up to 30 years if it's the same group I read about on Friday. Hope they spend all that time in an Iraqi prison with Cheney and all the other profiteers.
 
2008-12-08 11:56:26 AM
jaguar.it.miami.edu
For the defense.
 
2008-12-08 11:57:08 AM
Darconix: Dictatorial_Flair: Um...I think it may actually have something to do with all those people that got shot.

The fact that the entire situation can apparently barely be investigated because nobody has jurisdiction is why you shouldn't do idiotic stuff like turning mercenaries loose lose in a war zone with no oversight.

No, this is some limp-wristed liberal trying to make a politically-motivated prosecution against contractors hired by the farking government to do the job they did. If I sat on that jury I'd vote innocent even if the other 11 jurors were dead-set on their guilt. Fark that. The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do over politics is the day we cease being a democracy and just a bunch of partisan politicos. Fark you libs and your "impeach Bush" horseshiat. Fark you with a farking spoon.


You do realize they're only trying to put them on trial at this point, right? It's not like they're being summarily executed on hearsay. What would happen if US soldiers had done something similar? Wouldn't there probably at least be an investigation and trial before everyone kissed and made up?

I don't think blowing away a plaza full of civvies because they got skittish is what the Blackwater guys were hired for. I dunno, maybe it was exactly what they were hired for.

/I wish somebody would fark me. With anything really, even a spoon. QQ
//You offering?
 
2008-12-08 11:57:50 AM
Headso: Everyone who thought the war was a super duper idea back in 2003 should be put on trial right next to them.

Damn, there goes a good portion of Obama's cabinet!
 
2008-12-08 12:00:23 PM
Credy: Headso: Everyone who thought the war was a super duper idea back in 2003 should be put on trial right next to them.

Damn, there goes a good portion of Obama's cabinet!


Heh.
 
2008-12-08 12:03:17 PM
Noah's Arcade: guards MERCENARIES



/Fixed, for f*ck's sake.


Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.
 
2008-12-08 12:04:57 PM
liam76: Second in the US military investigations, and FBI investigations don't determine guilt, trials do.

That is rather a non-sequitur, considering that I'm pissed that they wouldn't even have to answer the charges. I don't recall declaring them guilty. You seem to have a history of attributing things to people that they never actually said.

I don't know what went down anymore than you do, but if you going to rant about following laws you should realize that those laws don;t apply to those people.

We'll see what happens in the fight over jurisdiction. Since you don't seem to have any official capacity in this regard, I think I'll wait and see what the judge says.
 
2008-12-08 12:05:49 PM
I should add, if you want an example of a merc outfit, google Executive Outcomes.
 
2008-12-08 12:07:24 PM
Get Yer Numbers Here!

Now selling VBNs for the SHAM and PUPPET TRIAL NUMBER BOARD.

Please submit your Very Big Number predictions on the final price tag for this bad joke.

Remember, the money they waste is used to be your money.
 
2008-12-08 12:07:26 PM
i will never understand why America would hire toy soldiers in stead of utilizing our boys and women in uniform.

oh yeah, Cheney the penguin had stock in the company so he stood to make some pennies with those contracts.

What a great country. we are free, and free to do whatever we want.
 
2008-12-08 12:07:27 PM
Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Befuddled: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: It was an article stating they had a flawless or near flawless mission success rate.

Given that Blackwater is a private entity and they can pick and choose the jobs they want to do, it's not surprising they'd have a good record of success. They just leave the dirty and dangerous jobs to those who can't say no.

Makes sense. I have no real idea how all that works, just that they tried to make it sound impressive in their coverage of that tidbit.

I also heard it's because they fire on anything that gets withing a few hundred yards of the convoy, be it car, human, desert insect, whatever. Shoot first ask questions later. Kills way too many innocents, but it does get the job done I guess.


Blackwater are FARKING cowboys. Good at what they do to a point often with local legal cover and/or legal immunity.

As for the legalities of this case it mater not one Iota who has jurisdiction or even if they are found guilty. There will always be mercs and those who pay them. They will stack the rules in their favor, why the powerful need protection and you can't hire protection if the security forces risk going to jail.

Prediction, these yahoos will do time.

Blackwater or if its broken up a successor company will organize overseas and its business as usual. If the US government won't play ball The PMCs take their toys and play in someone else's sandbox (highest bidder of course).


Oh no, Oh no, Oh no
Yo Yo Yo
Oh no you didn't
Sucker tried to play me
But you never paid me, Neva
Oh no you didn't
Payback is a' coming
You will be runnin', foreva
Oh no you didn't
Until i get me vengeance
I will never end this mayhem
Oh no you didn't
I'm a mercenary
You ain't got a prayer, you owe MEEEEE
 
2008-12-08 12:07:37 PM
Credy: Noah's Arcade: guards MERCENARIES



/Fixed, for f*ck's sake.

Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're They are job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.


ftfy.
 
2008-12-08 12:07:58 PM
FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.
 
2008-12-08 12:09:59 PM
Credy: Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.


Blackwater = Private Military Company(PMC)
PMCs = Provide services usually of the military nature for money and other gains.
Mercenaries = People who engage in military conflicts for personal gain i.e. money.

So don't try to sugar coat what Blackwater does by saying they do "security". The government may have contracted them for security reasons but that doesn't mean that they should be able to provide their services with little to no oversight.
 
2008-12-08 12:15:37 PM
DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.


They need Blackwater intact. Sink Blackwater and it re-organizes overseas beyond our jurisdiction. The successor organization still be recruiting personnel from US military and other forces, they'd this time they'd be selling their services to the highest bidder whom ever that may be.

US loses the services of those personnel and some of those very same personnel may potentially end-up opposing our interests after we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them.
 
2008-12-08 12:16:08 PM
now let me just say i have no problem with Company Profit or War for that matter
so long as you dont war solely for Profit.

thanks Bush Admin. for murdering innocent people so that you could profit and help America secure a positive role in the world.
 
2008-12-08 12:17:20 PM
news.xinhuanet.com

Wanted for further questioning.
 
2008-12-08 12:19:09 PM
This is what bugs me about Blackwater. They are no different from me, they are a private group, not a part of the US military, so why are they allowed to have military hardware that I could never have? They can possess brand new fully automatic weapons and more right here on US soil. If the pro-gun crowd is worried about being outgunned by the government, then why aren't they worred about being outgunned by groups that are completely independent of the government that can operate inside the US? Personally I am more worried about a bunch of yahoos with that firepower than the US military.
 
2008-12-08 12:19:48 PM
Darconix: The day we send government contractors to jail for doing what they were hired to do

We hired them to carry out unprovoked attacks, killing dozens of civilians??

liam76: First off as I stated before, the law that they are being prosecuted under doesn't apply to them so from the get-go this is illegal.

Second in the US military investigations, and FBI investigations don't determine guilt, trials do.


If only we had some place we could send men who carry out unprovoked attacks while being in a undetermined legal status. A place where we wouldn't have to worry about actually having to place them on trial.
 
2008-12-08 12:20:12 PM
DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.



nah.
lawyers and corporate types get rich or get to stay rich, and all that money trickles down to the rest of us, which is why we all live in this Camelot and swimm in gold. Have you not been paying attention the last 20 out of 28 years?

The evidence is there that this system works, you betcha! (plus brown-people blood is spilled to please Jesus! Win-win!)
/Palin '12
/Joe the Hired Killer fan
 
2008-12-08 12:20:53 PM
YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS.

*breath*

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS SS
 
2008-12-08 12:22:13 PM
whoa.

that was meant to be way more tongue-in-cheek. but very troll-y. sorry 'bout dat.
 
2008-12-08 12:22:13 PM
LegacyDL: Credy: Um, yeah. When was the last time you heard of Blackwater conducting an offensive military operation?

They're job is to keep convoys of State Department personnel secure, and part of that job is firing on vehicles that get too close to the convoy.

Blackwater = Private Military Company(PMC)
PMCs = Provide services usually of the military nature for money and other gains.
Mercenaries = People who engage in military conflicts for personal gain i.e. money.

So don't try to sugar coat what Blackwater does by saying they do "security". The government may have contracted them for security reasons but that doesn't mean that they should be able to provide their services with little to no oversight.


Nobody is saying they should provide their services with little to no oversight given the sensitive nature of their services, but there is a differance between a Private Security Company and a PMC. Blackwater doesn't actively engage in military conflict, they simply keep the infrastructure of diplomacy secure in a warzone. It's not sugar coating, it's what they do.

If we contracted them out to go on raids or attempt to find Osama, then they would be a PMC.
 
2008-12-08 12:22:23 PM
While anyone should be held accountable, the facts surrounding this event are so politicized it's difficult to impossbile for anyone to comment on this objectively.

While we should support those who commit criminal acts to be held accountable, the idea of "retroactive discipline" has already crippled our government officers ability to do their jobs successfully.

CIA agents are encourgaged to get liability insurance before going on assingments. Kind of like saying, what we are ordering you to do and what is legal to today, can become illegal anytime in the future and you will recieve no backing or support from us and will be left entirely on your own, destroying your career, and put under the threat of incarceration.

That was partially the reason for privatizing these security assignments in the first place. Has much as they get paid it's actually cheaper to outsource it, if you had any idea how much of operation and how many resources are involved to take a military unit to go outside the wire and drive down the street; when a group PMC's can just jump in their truck and leave.

And what is apparent from many of the posts in this thread, the crippling of our ability isn't an unitended consequence, but rather thats the entire point.
 
2008-12-08 12:22:25 PM
amazing_live_seamonkeys: FTFA: Five former security guards from Blackwater Worldwide turned themselves in to federal authorities

*POOF*

We are now Federal Authorities!


Yes but what the article doesn't tell you is this whole case is 14 kinds of farked up already because:
A) The guards face more mandatory prison time for kind of weapons they used (fully automatic) than for the actual killings themselves. This is thanks to a Reagan era- Drug War law that gives 30 year minimum sentences to anyone what uses a full-auto weapon the commision of another crime

B) the guards have all decided to surrender themselves in Utah even thought hey are indicted in Washington DC and hope thereby force they autorities to try them in UT where they are hoping for a "more fair" jury.


Personally I'm digusted by the fact that when the shootings occurred the guards were all quick to claim that they were civillian employees of an international company, and thus outside the reach, of the UCMJ, US law and Iraqi Civil law (their CEO stated flatly the HE "would not allow" them to be tried by Iraqis).

Now that the US has decided they can charge them their attorneys keep referering to them as "decorated Veterans of the Us Armed Forces"--didn't you used to loose your citizenship when you became a mercenary?
 
2008-12-08 12:22:35 PM
Edsel: That is rather a non-sequitur, considering that I'm pissed that they wouldn't even have to answer the charges. I don't recall declaring them guilty. You seem to have a history of attributing things to people that they never actually said.

You didn't come out and say they are guilty, but this statement

Oh good, then maybe they'll get off scot-free without ever having to answer why both the military investigation and the FBI determined that they killed 17 civilians and wounded 30 in an unprovoked attack.

, to me, implies you think they are guilty.



Edsel: We'll see what happens in the fight over jurisdiction. Since you don't seem to have any official capacity in this regard, I think I'll wait and see what the judge says.

Sec of State isn't the DoD. The law is pretty clear on who it has juridiction over.
 
2008-12-08 12:23:11 PM
Befuddled: This is what bugs me about Blackwater. They are no different from me, they are a private group, not a part of the US military, so why are they allowed to have military hardware that I could never have? They can possess brand new fully automatic weapons and more right here on US soil. If the pro-gun crowd is worried about being outgunned by the government, then why aren't they worred about being outgunned by groups that are completely independent of the government that can operate inside the US? Personally I am more worried about a bunch of yahoos with that firepower than the US military.

When it comes to fully automatic weapons on US soil, Blackwater is bound by the same laws as you or I.
 
2008-12-08 12:23:29 PM
Blackwater is good at what they do, whether you want to call them "security" or "mercenaries".

This is bullshiat trying to convict them under American law. Obviously I don't condone what they did, but I wasn't there and I can imagine that it happened really fast and none of them knew exactly what was going on. I don't think that these guys should get to keep their jobs, but if you want to make this kind of thing stop happening then the structure of the military needs to change to make these guys less vital to our infastructure. A witch hunt for these evil mercenaries will not change the situation with our Army and private contractors.
 
2008-12-08 12:24:44 PM
Credy: If we contracted them out to go on raids or attempt to find Osama, then they would be a PMC.

There is also the issue that the state department along with the DoD under the blanket of national security often will not allow what we have our PMCs do, be known.

So for all we know we could be contracting them out for everything under the sun.

Which makes sense, since if you join the military today, you'll be doing 1 of three things.

Loading a truck
Driving a truck
Getting shot at
 
2008-12-08 12:25:33 PM
Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: As much shiat as they caused, didn't Blackwater have a flawless or near flawless escort record? Always got their cargo, be it people or stuff, where it needed to go, didn't they?

Could have sworn I read that in some article a year back.


yes, the people they escort always make it to thier destination alive. Innocent civillians in their way, Iraqi Army personnel, and even US troops cannot say the same.
 
2008-12-08 12:25:37 PM
SchlingFocker: If only we had some place we could send men who carry out unprovoked attacks while being in a undetermined legal status. A place where we wouldn't have to worry about actually having to place them on trial.

Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.
 
2008-12-08 12:25:41 PM
Good news is that this limits some of the damage that Blackwater can do to America right off as a subversive organization.

Bad news is that unless the "emotional-investment" factor is defused by turning the Blackwater mercenaries against themselves by rewarding the reliable, trustworthy, and proven competent personal (in short, reward the best to give a reason to convert the rest) generously Obama will be unleashing a slow-rot force of disgruntled Blackwater mercenaries trained for terrorist attacks against America. The mercenaries will not admit personal fault as a team if the individuals do not feel as if their individual moral compass has not been pushed past even the obscene limits for mercenary behavior.

Mass-shaming them will only delay the inevitable.

Punishing all of the members of the generally amoral group for the actions of individuals is merely a time-delayed assassination of oneself.

Make the individuals feel happy for their efforts, make them feel proud to have served in the protection of the United States of America. Make them have a tiny highly-regulated level of officiality. Don't allow anyone to undermine this effort or the hotbed of experienced killers armed with top-of-the-line weaponry will become a dangerous insurgent force in America or the nearby nations.
 
2008-12-08 12:26:56 PM
crazytrpr: DoWhatNowToWhat: FTFA The government has told Blackwater that the company will not face charges, according to sources with knowledge of the case.

Glad to see this is just another way of wasting money.

They need Blackwater intact. Sink Blackwater and it re-organizes overseas beyond our jurisdiction. The successor organization still be recruiting personnel from US military and other forces, they'd this time they'd be selling their services to the highest bidder whom ever that may be.

US loses the services of those personnel and some of those very same personnel may potentially end-up opposing our interests after we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them.


You read too many comic books.
 
2008-12-08 12:27:00 PM
The funny thing is that Bush just threw Blackwater under the bus. In his rushed attempt to screw Obama by signing the deal with the Iraqi government before Obama could, he gave away the farm. And part of the agreement was that Blackwater could be held accountable for all civilian deaths in Iraq that they were responsible for- and here's the important part- past, present, and future. Bush hung Blackwater out to dry.

Erik Prince's private army is now very very pissed off at a certain lame duck president.
 
2008-12-08 12:27:44 PM
liam76: Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen.

We had no problem throwing him in military custody with no trial or access to counsel for a few years.
 
2008-12-08 12:28:02 PM
Their trial should have been held in Iraq a week after the incident.
 
2008-12-08 12:29:11 PM
Blackwater 2008 version

Well, I killed an Iraqi and I'm ready for trial,
Justice Department is calling my name,
Neo-cons jumpin',
Liberals are Chest thumping,
No matter what happens the war stays the same.


Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,

Yeah, keep on shining your light,
On the my firefight,
Dead civilians never make it to the spotlight,
And I ain't got no worries,
Cuz I work for Dick Cheney, aoh!

(instrumental)


Well, if it rains,
I don't care,
I'll watch myself some TV,
Just catch that humvee that's going up suk,
Yeah, I like hear some gunship rotor blades and an A-10 chain gun,
And I'll be buying everybody drinks each kill.


Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,
Oh, Blackwater, keep on rollin',
Mesopotamian moon won't you keep on shining on me,

Yeah, keep on shining your light,
On the my firefight,
Dead civilians never make it to the spotlight,
And I ain't got no worries,
Cuz I work for Dick Cheney, aoh!

(instrumental)
 
2008-12-08 12:30:29 PM
SchlingFocker: liam76: Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen.

We had no problem throwing him in military custody with no trial or access to counsel for a few years.


Hence there is established precedent.
 
2008-12-08 12:30:41 PM
Hassan Salman, an Iraqi lawyer wounded in the shootings, said that the "American judicial system, known for its integrity, should hand down [to] the perpetrators of this heinous crime against the Iraqi people nothing less than death sentences."

Glad to see the Rule of Law has reached the Middle East. The Sharia is such a fair, balanced system. I'm sure that absolutely no Fatwahs will be handed down if these guys walk. Or before they go to trial. Or during trial.

/Whut? It's "trial, conviction, then punishment"? Guess I missed that lecture in my Iraqi-League law school edumacation.
 
2008-12-08 12:30:43 PM
Damn, typo:

*...On my firefight...*
 
2008-12-08 12:31:52 PM
Here is my spin on things, and yes, I am prepared to be burned by the flamethrower that are farkers. Black Water is not evil, it just had a few people do some bad things. Just like Catholics had a few bad priests, and there are a few bad soldiers and Marines. Every group has their bad apples, it doesn't mean that the whole group is bad. Should Mercs be doing the job designed for military personal? Hell no, but due to lack of retention, and lack of enlistment, the military is forced to cut corners to get by, and accomplish the mission in Iraq.
 
2008-12-08 12:32:24 PM
liam76: Edsel: Oh good, then maybe they'll get off scot-free without ever having to answer why both the military investigation and the FBI determined that they killed 17 civilians and wounded 30 in an unprovoked attack. I mean, they're our mercenaries and we should be in favor of them being able to do whatever they want with impunity.

You are the one who brought up laws and how they shouldn't be ignored.

First off as I stated before, the law that they are being prosecuted under doesn't apply to them so from the get-go this is illegal.

Second in the US military investigations, and FBI investigations don't determine guilt, trials do.

I don't know what went down anymore than you do, but if you going to rant about following laws you should realize that those laws don;t apply to those people.


Congratulations on attaining your Law degree. Further congratulations on your legal interpretation skills which have apparently determined the non-applicability of this criminal statute. It's a wonder that none of the lawyers at the DOJ failed to notice this fatal flaw in their indictments.


I wonder if you'd be so good as to give the rest of us a brief symposia on statutory construction vis-avis the language of charging laws of this indictment and the legal reasoning that renders them inapplicable to the corpus delecti of this case?
 
2008-12-08 12:32:49 PM
"Privilege" is "private law."

Sounds like their privilege has been well and truly revoked.
 
2008-12-08 12:33:41 PM
chu2dogg: Hence there is established precedent.

Yup, there is.

I'm sure after some of the humane interrogation they'll be subjected to while in military custody, the Blackwater mercenaries will be more than happy to admit the crimes they committed.

It really is the best way to extract the truth from men who are responsible for killing while in a legally questionable status.
 
2008-12-08 12:34:02 PM
SchlingFocker: liam76: Would only work for the non-american blackwater employees.

Jose Padilla is an American citizen.

We had no problem throwing him in military custody with no trial or access to counsel for a few years.


Who is "we"?
 
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