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(Some Guy)   Over 100 civilized nations gather to sign treaty banning the use of cluster bombs - guess who's not signing   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 695
    More: Asinine  
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11084 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Dec 2008 at 11:07 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-12-03 02:46:07 PM
BoozePenguin: yep, extra zero :p actually the 700 number is wrong i think the bloodiest year was 2002 more then 450 killed. That's when defensive shield took place.

its best to post up with a citation. People have warped ideas of these figures. I didn't know (when I read it in march) that The rocket attacks on Israel have killed 13 civilians in the last seven years. I also didn't know that More Israelis have been killed in car accidents than in all of the country's wars combined.

A 'causal' statement should come with at least a citation, too.

like
Shin Bet: Separation fence fueling attacks by East Jerusalem Arabs
 
2008-12-03 02:47:36 PM
What if you put cluster bombs inside of llamas and then put lasers on their heads?

That would make them guided and smart and cozy.


That's not so bad, right?
 
2008-12-03 02:50:08 PM
farkeruk: If they were useful, what's the consequence of that action?

Yes, war will be harder, and it risks the lives of our troops in exchange for the lives of civilians the world over. That's what every weapon ban is, what the Geneva conventions are about, what the rules of engagement are about, what the ban on torture is about.
 
2008-12-03 02:50:55 PM
I am easily amused too Absolute (and bored at work). Let me fling out the greatest atrocities of the last 50 years. (anything under a million dead is unfortunate, but I not listing it)

49-76 was chairman Mao, 48million dead, Not us, even indirectly, commie show, man nobody racks up body counts like commies.

60-75 was the Indochina War, that we played a part in towards the end and if we had stayed could have taken a million dead of the 2.7m body count. More Commies.

62-92 Ethopian Civil Wars 1.4m dead, more commies (well marxists, but same thing), not us.

75-79 Khmer Rouge Regime, 1.5 million dead, not us more commies.

75-79 Cambodia, 1.5 million dead, more commies and again, not us.

80- Afghanistan Civil War, 1.5 million dead, most of that done by the Russians and then the Taliban, we are now involved at the end of it, and hopefully this will be the end of it. Human Rights Watch puts our involvement at 25000 direct and indirect civilian deaths, for 7 years of work, compared to the rest of them we are slackers... Or not the bloodthirsty bastards some make us out to be, you decide.

83- Second Sudanese Civil war, up to 2million, Not our show, Arab aggression vs Non Arabs. We had not even sold them arms since 67 and the six day war, I bet we are going to end up mixed up in this.

80-88 Iran-Iraq war, 1m Dead, we (well, we and the west) backed Saddam, but did not commit troops to it. I would say Direct thou as we were using Iraq as a buffer between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

98- Congolese Civil War 5.5 million dead, we got involved in 01 when we backed Rawanda to put an end to it, but again, not our ball but can we pick em? Sadam, Rawandans... That's some fine foreign policy work there Lou...

I am a libertarian, were it to me we would not send troops anywhere for anything but brief and brutal precision bombing campaigns, 24 hour regime changes, and gunboat diplomacy where needed. This nation building stuff is expensive. I am all for selling guns to those who need them, but financing nut bags only to have to go and clean up the mess later is a business we should get out of.

However, if you were taught that America was directly involved in all the atrocities of the last 50 years, you might need a refund on your education.
 
2008-12-03 02:51:43 PM
gustakooka: Degree Absolute: So anyways, whidbey is wrong, everyone else in the thread is right.

That is half true.


Which half?
 
2008-12-03 02:53:00 PM
Mnemia: And anyone who says that there are no innocents in two countries with collectively millions of people in them is either a weak, pathetic troll or a total monster.

I disagree with this line of logic. Call me a total monster if you must, but the German civilians at Dresden weren't considered "innocents" when we bombed them during World War II. We considered them culpable as they were directly responsible for putting Hitler into power. The same deal applies to the Palestinian people. They were responsible for putting Hamas into power. They collectively share the culpability for terrorist acts committed by Hamas as the Germans and Japanese we have fought in years past.

However, you mollycoddled libs have invented this idea of a bloodless war, using "proportionate" responses to acts of aggression, and call the death of every civilian due to unavoidable collateral damage a "war crime." No one wins a war using the rules you libs have dreamed up over the past two decades. Which is the point, I suppose. Incidentally, it is also why most right-minded folks consider you America-hating farkwads, for the record.
 
2008-12-03 02:53:08 PM
SchlingFocker: 98% of the casualties from cluster bombs are civilians.

37% of those civilian casualties are children.

The U.S. is retarded.


Since approximately 37% of the Worlds Population is 18 or under, I would expect 37% of civilian casualties to children, assuming a random distribution of civilians.

Source UN Population Division (new window)

/statistics are fun
 
2008-12-03 02:53:40 PM
Degree Absolute: Which half?

So anyways, whidbey is wrong, everyone else in the thread is right.
 
2008-12-03 02:55:06 PM
Party Boy

www.mfa.gov.il

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/B4D13FF9-DA77-4C65-A691-FC1CC2218E4E /0/terror stats1.jpg

operation defensive shield ran in 2002 between march and may, and afterwards the curfews continues as did the occupation of the towns which had previously been PA controlled territory.

Since then israel has continued for the most part to control those towns. since then israel hasn't suffered a bloodier year then 2002.
 
2008-12-03 02:55:14 PM
whidbey: shawn82: Wat?

Ever read that article by Robert Macnamara Apocalypse Soon

Chilling reading.



Didn't see anything in there that supports your claim that we're increasing our nuclear stockpiles. In fact, as shawn82's graph shows, we've decreased them significantly, and will continue to decrease them further per the SORTS agreement. True, some of the dismantled bombs will be kept in a ready reserve status, but others won't, so it's *still* a reduction.
 
2008-12-03 02:55:15 PM
Party Boy: Degree Absolute: Which half?

So anyways, whidbey is wrong, everyone else in the thread is right.


Not anymore, I hope.
 
2008-12-03 02:55:37 PM
Darconix: I disagree with this line of logic. Call me a total monster if you must, but the German civilians at Dresden weren't considered "innocents" when we bombed them during World War II. We considered them culpable as they were directly responsible for putting Hitler into power.

Man, I'd hate to let the Iraqis in on this idea.
 
2008-12-03 02:56:31 PM
Apoe: I am a libertarian, were it to me we would not send troops anywhere for anything but brief and brutal precision bombing campaigns, 24 hour regime changes, and gunboat diplomacy where needed. This nation building stuff is expensive. I am all for selling guns to those who need them, but financing nut bags only to have to go and clean up the mess later is a business we should get out of.

I agree with you 100% on this. Our military is made to utterly destroy our enemies, not to build nations. Somewhere along the line we forgot this and as a consequence American lives have been lost.
 
2008-12-03 02:57:20 PM
Degree Absolute: You have evidence that Israel uses cluster bombs in Gaza??? Call CNN, the BBC, Al Jazeera, etc and you will be handsomely rewarded. They have been looking for evidence of this since at least 2006 when some NGO claimed that they thought that maybe Israel might have used cluster bombs in Gaza, but had nothing to back it up like... you know... a cluster bomblet.

Good luck with that.


Believe it, or don't. I've seen things claiming that they did, and given Israel's track record on the matter, I'm inclined to believe it's at least possible they have. They definitely used them against dense areas in Lebanon; they have admitted that. The heavy use of cluster bombs against civilian-dense areas in Lebanon was so outrageous that even people in the IDF were upset and outraged by it. And the U.S. has even said that it's possible that Israel's use of them violated U.S. export control agreements.
 
2008-12-03 02:58:26 PM
Party Boy: Degree Absolute: Which half?

So anyways, whidbey is wrong, everyone else in the thread is right.


Thank you.
 
2008-12-03 02:58:26 PM
Party Boy: Man, I'd hate to let the Iraqis in on this idea.

I lol'd.
 
2008-12-03 03:00:17 PM
Party Boy: Degree Absolute: Which half?

So anyways, whidbey is wrong, everyone else in the thread is right.


I hope you realize that everyone in this thread is booing you now. They really wanted to be right.

/booooo
 
2008-12-03 03:00:29 PM
BoozePenguin: operation defensive shield ran in 2002 between march and may, and afterwards the curfews continues as did the occupation of the towns which had previously been PA controlled territory.

Since then israel has continued for the most part to control those towns. since then israel hasn't suffered a bloodier year then 2002.


Its a big Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
Its also removing it from the relevant historical events and cramming it into a narrative of action and israeli response.
 
2008-12-03 03:02:19 PM
Degree Absolute: /booooo

I'm scared of llamas.
 
2008-12-03 03:03:39 PM
The Second Lateran Council of 1139 banned using crossbows against Christians.

This weapons ban will do just as good as that one did.
 
2008-12-03 03:03:48 PM
Mnemia: Degree Absolute: You have evidence that Israel uses cluster bombs in Gaza??? Call CNN, the BBC, Al Jazeera, etc and you will be handsomely rewarded. They have been looking for evidence of this since at least 2006 when some NGO claimed that they thought that maybe Israel might have used cluster bombs in Gaza, but had nothing to back it up like... you know... a cluster bomblet.

Good luck with that.

Believe it, or don't. I've seen things claiming that they did, and given Israel's track record on the matter, I'm inclined to believe it's at least possible they have. They definitely used them against dense areas in Lebanon; they have admitted that. The heavy use of cluster bombs against civilian-dense areas in Lebanon was so outrageous that even people in the IDF were upset and outraged by it. And the U.S. has even said that it's possible that Israel's use of them violated U.S. export control agreements.


Oh ok. I don't.

I prefer to believe actual evidence. Call me a cynic, but after the last 8 years, the whole "trust me, they are bad and I know whats best" routine has grown a little bit tired.
 
2008-12-03 03:08:00 PM
never understood why we need rules when killing each other.
 
2008-12-03 03:09:27 PM
Party Boy: Degree Absolute: /booooo

I'm scared of llamas.


www.theangryllama.com
 
2008-12-03 03:12:51 PM
Degree Absolute: Party Boy: Degree Absolute: /booooo

I'm scared of llamas.


www.themedsupplyguide.com

was ready
 
2008-12-03 03:15:40 PM
after the passover day bombing there was massive pressure for re-invasion. I was making the point that israelis can (and do) look at the short term outcomes of some acts of violence, such as a quite northern border (for now) and the massive drop in suicide bombings that came after the re-invasion of the west bank. You need to be able to go to where israelis are to commit a suicide bombing attack. Severe restrictions on movement prevented that. I'm not saying it decreased hate or anything like that.

That's the chronology of events - the IDF responded to popular support for a reinvasion by heavily suppressing the freedom of movement of palestinians. I'm not inclined to the belief that that made the palestinians love israel more, i'm saying it made it harder for palestinians to come to israel.

Its in btselems report on it, the severe restrictions on freedom of movement, the chronology etc..
 
2008-12-03 03:17:53 PM
whidbey: INTERTRON: I make such a distinction, therefore your claim that no one makes such a distinction is incorrect. Have a fun time trying to prove your claim now.

Again, you made the absurd statement that the US does not supply arms, the DEFENSE contractors do, and then you had the audacious unprovable claim that the rest of the world also believes this.

I asked you to back it up.

You haven't. I'm still waiting for you to provide a source that OFFICIALLY backs up that claim.


Again, you made the absurd statement that the U.S. Government supplies arms, and then had the audacious, unprovable claim that nobody thinks otherwise.

I asked you to back it up.

You haven't. I'm still waiting for you to provide a source that OFFICIALLY backs up that claim.
 
2008-12-03 03:18:04 PM
Pxtl:
So, to clarify, is the ban because of the large number of unexploded weapons? Or because of they're the last bit of saturation-bombing in modern warfare, which obviously tends to bag a lot of innocent bystanders?


The first one. The Norwegian millitary set a max limit on unexploded weapons to 1%, but couldn`t reach that goal even under perfect testing conditions. And acording to the ones who have to clean up the unexploded weapons the real number after combat use is closer to 10%.
 
2008-12-03 03:18:11 PM
bye boozey - got to go to the gym in 26 minutes
 
2008-12-03 03:19:49 PM
whidbey:
No, two wrongs NEVER make it right. As long as countries behave in a illegal, aggressive manner, there will be continued retaliation.

And there should be.


You're a bit of a looney.
The palestinians should have given up a long time ago, and been absorbed by all their sponsor countries. Its only a million or so farking people. fark 'em.
The sponsor countries simply find them useful whipping boys to decry the west. In effect, a proxy war on western civilization.

Real wars do end.
Proxy wars get you very little.
 
2008-12-03 03:22:57 PM
Mnemia: I've also heard that a major reason many U.S. lawmakers voted against restricting cluster bomb sales was that Israel wants to retain the option to use them against dense populations in Gaza and the West Bank...

OK, well that is essentially the situation in Gaza. We know that Israel uses the cluster bombs we sell them to bomb neighborhoods. So I would agree that we're directly responsible, morally, regardless of whether you think that's a moral wrong, or not. Even if you think Israel is justified, we still share in the moral culpability...




Please show some citations or evidence to support these outrageous accusations, or withdraw them from this discussion (an apology would be nice, also, but I won't hold my breath).

When gunfire is emanating from a house, that house is no longer considered "civilian" or "out of bounds".

The Palestinians deliberately position themselves amongst civilians when they launch their attacks as a matter of strategy. This is because having their children killed is a desirable outcome, as it provides them with a propaganda victory: "Look, the evil Jews are massacring our children."

mysite.verizon.net


Think about this. Even if you buy into all the "hate Israel" rhetoric, and believe that "resistance" is "legitimate", would you really take your children into battle with you and surround yourself with them?


mysite.verizon.net



mysite.verizon.net

That last photo appears to be an anti-tank recoilless rocket (pretty impressive for one of the Palestinian "crude, homemade, mostly harmless" devices). The presence of this on a battlefield will most likely call in a rapid response from a mortar, tank, or fighter jet. And then you'll be the one crying "oh the humanity - the Zionists killed five more innocent kids". (although most of the people in that picture look like they're in their late teens, it's better to call them "kids"... it makes the Israelis seem that more evil.)

If you're interested in human rights and Crimes Against Humanity, shouldn't the UN be investigating how the Palestinians use their children as cannon fodder and tools for their propaganda machine?
 
2008-12-03 03:28:52 PM
INTERTRON [TotalFark] Quote 2008-12-03 03:17:53 PM

Seeing as how you're unable to back up your claim, you forfeit.

Thanks for playing.

Oh and copying/pasting my comments and filling them in with your FAIL doesn't count.

Better luck next time?
 
2008-12-03 03:38:07 PM
nashBridges: Party Boy: 13 out of the 26 countries affected by cluster bombs
38 out of the 78 countries that stockpile cluster bombs
17 out of the 34 countries that have produced cluster bombs
7 out of the 14 countries that have used cluster bombs

I'll give it up for those countries. The rest of that list sounds like it would be advantageous or at the very least not much of a sacrifice to sign the treaty.


Considering the fact that we lost two wars using cluster bombs, it doesn't seem like much sacrifice for us either.
 
2008-12-03 03:38:25 PM
whidbey: INTERTRON [TotalFark] Quote 2008-12-03 03:17:53 PM

Seeing as how you're unable to back up your claim, you forfeit.

Thanks for playing.

Oh and copying/pasting my comments and filling them in with your FAIL doesn't count.

Better luck next time?


I like how you still haven't proven your claim, which was the original one, yet now you're mad because you think I'm doing the same thing.

That you actually think I'm stupid enough to overlook this blindly obvious display of disingenuousness is actually sort of pathetic.
 
2008-12-03 03:38:39 PM
joshik72: That last photo appears to be an anti-tank recoilless rocket (pretty impressive for one of the Palestinian "crude, homemade, mostly harmless" devices). The presence of this on a battlefield will most likely call in a rapid response from a mortar, tank, or fighter jet. And then you'll be the one crying "oh the humanity - the Zionists killed five more innocent kids". (although most of the people in that picture look like they're in their late teens, it's better to call them "kids"... it makes the Israelis seem that more evil.)

If you're interested in human rights and Crimes Against Humanity, shouldn't the UN be investigating how the Palestinians use their children as cannon fodder and tools for their propaganda machine?


Nah. Libs have already condemned Israel as being the agressor. And anything the Palestinian propagandists throw at them is lapped up almost as quickly as if issued from the mouth of Barack Obama.
 
2008-12-03 03:40:44 PM
BoozePenguin: Party Boy

operation defensive shield ran in 2002 between march and may, and afterwards the curfews continues as did the occupation of the towns which had previously been PA controlled territory.

Since then israel has continued for the most part to control those towns. since then israel hasn't suffered a bloodier year then 2002.




I think the huge decrease was due to the wildly successful West Bank security fence (Apartheid Wall, OH NOES!) that went into full swing around that time. I believe that suicide bombings dropped to around, oh, ZERO.

If I remember correctly, terrorist activity dropped in the north mainly because Hezbollah basically "shot their wad" during the big conflict. As part of the ceasefire agreements, the UN was supposed to disarm Hezbollah. That went well. By now, they've pretty much gotten resupplied from Syria (and possibly Iran). So it goes. Death to Israel, yadda yadda...
 
2008-12-03 03:43:01 PM
Darconix: Nah. Libs have already condemned Israel as being the agressor. And anything the Palestinian propagandists throw at them is lapped up almost as quickly as if issued from the mouth of Barack Obama.

Lies, and not very smart ones either. Don't have an honest bone in your body, do you?
 
2008-12-03 03:46:54 PM
ilambiquated: Darconix: Nah. Libs have already condemned Israel as being the agressor. And anything the Palestinian propagandists throw at them is lapped up almost as quickly as if issued from the mouth of Barack Obama.

Lies, and not very smart ones either. Don't have an honest bone in your body, do you?


He is on Ignore, please don't copy and paste him.
 
2008-12-03 03:50:00 PM
INTERTRON: I like how you still haven't proven your claim, which was the original one, yet now you're mad because you think I'm doing the same thing.

That you actually think I'm stupid enough to overlook this blindly obvious display of disingenuousness is actually sort of pathetic.


Again, you made the point that the US doesn't sell arms.

Laughable.

When you were asked to back it up, you balked.

You forfeit by default.

But keep lashing back at me like it's my charge. You obviously have never heard of the maxim that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
 
2008-12-03 03:51:34 PM
Ask the soldiers in ODA 525 of the Special Forces if they think that cluster bombs should be outlawed.

The short story: An 8-man Operational Detachment-Alpha was conducting a reconnaissance mission 150 miles behind Iraqi lines during Desert Storm. They were discovered by some kids, and eventually were pinned down by a platoon-size element of the Iraqi army. The Iraqis were advancing on their position, and they would have died had they not been able to call in close air support from nearby F-16's that got re-tasked from some other mission. The eight fastmovers dropped CBU's "danger close" to the SF Soldiers (Read: within about 50 meters). The Iraqi unit was vaporized, and there were no casualties among the SF team.


No matter how much you retard armchair generals want to believe it, war isn't a computer game. It isn't the glamorized precision-guided BS that you see plastered all over your TV. War is ugly, it sucks, and people die. Sometimes it's not the people that ought to die. We work harder than any country in the world to make sure that only the bad guys get blown up, but it doesn't work all of the time.

Rough men stand ready in the night to do violence on your behalf so that you don't have to.
 
2008-12-03 03:51:47 PM
whidbey: INTERTRON: I like how you still haven't proven your claim, which was the original one, yet now you're mad because you think I'm doing the same thing.

That you actually think I'm stupid enough to overlook this blindly obvious display of disingenuousness is actually sort of pathetic.

Again, you made the point that the US doesn't sell arms.

Laughable.

When you were asked to back it up, you balked.

You forfeit by default.

But keep lashing back at me like it's my charge. You obviously have never heard of the maxim that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.


Let's try this again, and see if you get it this time. I've bolded the important part, perhaps you won't ignore it if it jumps out at you enough.

I like how you still haven't proven your claim, which was the original one, yet now you're mad because you think I'm doing the same thing.

That you actually think I'm stupid enough to overlook this blindly obvious display of disingenuousness is actually sort of pathetic.
 
2008-12-03 03:59:49 PM
www.underconsideration.com
 
2008-12-03 04:00:00 PM
Tony Stark?
 
2008-12-03 04:00:12 PM
potee:

/Germany tried to have shotguns banned worldwide during the buildup to WWII, because they couldn't reverse-engineer them very well, and got absolutely slaughtered by Winchesters in the trenches of WWI.

You do know who first started using clusterbombs?

/my first Goodwin, do I get a price?
 
2008-12-03 04:02:40 PM
ilambiquated: Darconix: Nah. Libs have already condemned Israel as being the agressor. And anything the Palestinian propagandists throw at them is lapped up almost as quickly as if issued from the mouth of Barack Obama.

Lies, and not very smart ones either. Don't have an honest bone in your body, do you?




Where is the lie here? I consider myself a proud Clintonista, Obamaniac, Progressive, Liberal, etc... And yet it appears that the vast majority of anti-Israel sentiment is coming from the far-left quarters. I was listening to Amy "Ms. Cheerful" Goodman this morning... have you ever heard her say anything, I mean anything positive about Israel?

I agree with Darconix - the far-left (not all Libs, but the wacky left) has "already condemned Israel as being the agressor."

And they are all-too-willing to believe everything they hear from a dedicated Palestinian propaganda machine: there was a "massacre" in Jenin, Gaza is "starving", Mohammed al-Dura was "killed by Israelis", etc... They're ready to believe it, because they're predisposed to think the worst of Israel.

As for the crack about Obama, I don't buy it. I think he will be very fair towards Israel, and maybe he can help move the region toward a peaceful and equitable two-state solution. Here's hoping...


// seriously, being a pro-Israel Democrat is like being a Log Cabin Republican, it seems...
// (uhm, without the gay sex...)
 
2008-12-03 04:05:22 PM
Degree Absolute [TotalFark] Quote 2008-12-03 03:03:48 PM
Mnemia: Degree Absolute: You have evidence that Israel uses cluster bombs in Gaza??? Call CNN, the BBC, Al Jazeera, etc and you will be handsomely rewarded. They have been looking for evidence of this since at least 2006 when some NGO claimed that they thought that maybe Israel might have used cluster bombs in Gaza, but had nothing to back it up like... you know... a cluster bomblet.

Good luck with that.

Believe it, or don't. I've seen things claiming that they did, and given Israel's track record on the matter, I'm inclined to believe it's at least possible they have. They definitely used them against dense areas in Lebanon; they have admitted that. The heavy use of cluster bombs against civilian-dense areas in Lebanon was so outrageous that even people in the IDF were upset and outraged by it. And the U.S. has even said that it's possible that Israel's use of them violated U.S. export control agreements.

Oh ok. I don't.

I prefer to believe actual evidence. Call me a cynic, but after the last 8 years, the whole "trust me, they are bad and I know whats best" routine has grown a little bit tired.


/Pssst; call the UN, they are the one cleaning up the unexploded ones... (Saw a documentary on clusterbombs that tuched by this an hour ago, but its in Norwegian so I don`t thing finding a link would help).
 
2008-12-03 04:10:17 PM
INTERTRON: I like how you still haven't proven your claim, which was the original one, yet now you're mad because you think I'm doing the same thing.

I'm not mad.

Just disappointed.

Well not really. I still think it's funny you would go through so much to manipulate a simple truth.

You can't really prove it, can you? To the rest of the world, the US really DOES sell arms, doesn't it?
 
2008-12-03 04:13:45 PM
globalwarmingpraiser: ilambiquated: Darconix: Nah. Libs have already condemned Israel as being the agressor. And anything the Palestinian propagandists throw at them is lapped up almost as quickly as if issued from the mouth of Barack Obama.

Lies, and not very smart ones either. Don't have an honest bone in your body, do you?

He is on Ignore, please don't copy and paste him.


Sorry...
 
2008-12-03 04:14:31 PM
Should be HERO tag. Stupid subby, trix are for kids.
 
2008-12-03 04:19:00 PM
ilambiquated: Considering the fact that we lost two wars using cluster bombs, it doesn't seem like much sacrifice for us either.

I haven't heard anything about them that leads me to believe they're a magic weapon in any sense. They seem to have a very narrow, limited use.
 
2008-12-03 04:19:06 PM
mordi: Degree Absolute [TotalFark] Quote 2008-12-03 03:03:48 PM
Mnemia: Degree Absolute: You have evidence that Israel uses cluster bombs in Gaza??? Call CNN, the BBC, Al Jazeera, etc and you will be handsomely rewarded. They have been looking for evidence of this since at least 2006 when some NGO claimed that they thought that maybe Israel might have used cluster bombs in Gaza, but had nothing to back it up like... you know... a cluster bomblet.

Good luck with that.

Believe it, or don't. I've seen things claiming that they did, and given Israel's track record on the matter, I'm inclined to believe it's at least possible they have. They definitely used them against dense areas in Lebanon; they have admitted that. The heavy use of cluster bombs against civilian-dense areas in Lebanon was so outrageous that even people in the IDF were upset and outraged by it. And the U.S. has even said that it's possible that Israel's use of them violated U.S. export control agreements.

Oh ok. I don't.

I prefer to believe actual evidence. Call me a cynic, but after the last 8 years, the whole "trust me, they are bad and I know whats best" routine has grown a little bit tired.


/Pssst; call the UN, they are the one cleaning up the unexploded ones... (Saw a documentary on clusterbombs that tuched by this an hour ago, but its in Norwegian so I don`t thing finding a link would help).


Thats convenient.
 
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