que.guero: I wonder what else we can refuse to do based on moral imperatives? After all, if my religion says that status reports are of the devil, I shouldn't have to write them, yes?

No, you don't. And your employer has the option of accepting this or firing you. Pretty cool country, huh?

rubi_con_man: MidnightSkulker: Blargh. That's another one of my peeve points. I hate that doctors assume that women always want children/more children. If someone wants to be snipped/spayed, have a reasonable waiting period, then DO IT! My ex-SIL had to go to five doctors *and* have her fiance sign off on it for her to get a tubal at 23. She didn't - and still doesn't at 41 - want kids.

Changing her mind is free for her, and VERY expensive for whomever tied her tubes 'too early'.

Yup. Had a family member get sued because a woman (19 years at the time, late 20s when she was convinced by some lawyer to sue) thought she wasn't sufficiently informed of the side-effects of getting her tubes clipped... like, you know, infertility. This despite the fact that the doctor had signed consent forms with a description of the procedure and its results, and the fact that he'd done her a favor (did it for free during a caesarian delivery or something -- it was her fifth kid. at 19. I'd believe she meant it when she said she wanted to be sterilized, too).

Basically, stupid people exist and they're allowed access to the legal system, and this is why it's hard to get any optional invasive, non-reversible procedure done until you're a decade from menopause. doctors are a lot of things, but 'stupid' is only rarely one of them.

que.guero: if my religion says that status reports are of the devil, I shouldn't have to write them, yes?

If you open temple, I will join.

Jim_Callahan: Prevents implantation, mostly (plan B is progestin, iirc). So technically doesn't prevent fertilization, but effectively prevents the fertilized ovum from dividing into more than a couple hundred cells or so (at which point it would normally need to fasten to the uterine wall to obtain the nutrition required for further development). Has a couple other effects which slow the movement of sperm and such, but the wall-lining thing is the bit that is a 'preventer' rather than an 'inhibiter'.

Levonorgestrel, actually, from what I found. I also initially thought it was an implantation inhibitor. Additional research on my part suggested that is not the method of action for Levonorgestrel. However, there doesn't seem to be an established consensus as to how exactly it works (same story with Mifepristone).

If women don't want to carry a child, all she as to do is keep her legs closed.

kellynoel: Well, the other day we decided to be extra-safe and to get the Plan B pill from Walgreens here in town... Now, Plan B is just an additional spermicide, not an abortion pill, but that's another can of worms.

While I appreciate the sentiment and think that Plan B should be as easy to get as bubble gum, this individual does not understand what Plan B is, how it should be used or how it works.

THIS

Hopefully his girlfriend is not as ignorant of what she is takiing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't take it. But you should know what it is before you use it.

Well I for one am prolife and I think if a woman is raped or something, as soon as it happens she should go get the plan B pill, mainly because the sperm hasnt even had time to fertilize the egg yet, so its not a life yet. When the cell starts to multiply, thats when it becomes a life. No if, ands, or buts about it.

steviesgirl777: Well I for one am prolife and I think if a woman is raped or something, as soon as it happens she should go get the plan B pill, mainly because the sperm hasnt even had time to fertilize the egg yet, so its not a life yet. When the cell starts to multiply, thats when it becomes a life. No if, ands, or buts about it.

By that argument, every woman who has ever had a miscarriage should be sent to jail on manslaughter charges.

Good one.

Jeffrey.Rodriguez: Levonorgestrel

Thought levonorgestrel was a synthetic progestagen, guess each version will be slightly different, though, maybe.

Hey, I think I managed to avoid misspelling any trade names or arbitrary steroid names this post. Cool.

I like all the responses about how if he doesn't want to hand out plan B, he should get a different line of work. As a future medical student, I am morally opposed to assisted suicide, but that isn't going to stop me from becoming a doctor and helping people. I'm just not going to do the few parts I don't agree with.

The sense of entitlement so many of you have makes me sick. The world doesn't revolve around you. Just because there is no reason you can't doesn't mean that he is required to facilitate that for you. The pharmacist could have flat-out refused to sell it to her, and as long as he didn't pick her out specifically to only refuse, he is in the right. He could have possibly violated company policy, but that is it.

He violated common sense a little bit by asking her to wait an hour, because I'm sure he knows that it is a very time-sensitive product, that is the only thing that irks me. He should have given it to her or denied it completely.

SpacePunk: If women don't want to carry a child, all she as to do is keep her legs closed.

How is babby formed, anyway?

SpacePunk: If women don't want to carry a child, all she as to do is keep her legs closed.

Ringshadow: MidnightSkulker: Ringshadow: Though honestly no one ever gave me shiat when I picked up my BC patch every month. On the other hand, my doctor flat out refused to even discusse Essure with me. Seriously, some consistency would be nice.

Blargh. That's another one of my peeve points. I hate that doctors assume that women always want children/more children. If someone wants to be snipped/spayed, have a reasonable waiting period, then DO IT! My ex-SIL had to go to five doctors *and* have her fiance sign off on it for her to get a tubal at 23. She didn't - and still doesn't at 41 - want kids. She should not have required a man's permission, nor should she have had to spend two years jumping through hoops to show that she was serious. I'm 21, and evaluating whether I truly want to/should ever have another child. I know I don't stand a snowball's chance of actually being sterilized for at least 5-6 years should that be my decision. Ridiculous.

Oh trust me, I'm right there with you. This sparring match with my doctor was over six months ago now and I'm still irritated about it. I'm currently an uninsured student, but what I figure I'll wait until I'm working and insured again to get my next annual, and lawyer up. I figure threatening to sue for age/marital status discrimination will shove my point home. Oddly enough I've ran into some guys who have had vasectomies, and they had to change doctors to get it done because their regular doctor refused.
Seriously, why the hell is it such a problem if some people would rather not have kids?

/Jeffrey.Rodriguez, I salute you for that pic
//it gets some use

Because people have a tendency to change their minds. It sucks that people who really REALLY don't want kids get shafted in the process, but I am sure that many young adults who get it done try and have it reversed later on. I don't see any other reason for them refusing to do it.

juggs: I like all the responses about how if he doesn't want to hand out plan B, he should get a different line of work. As a future medical student, I am morally opposed to assisted suicide, but that isn't going to stop me from becoming a doctor and helping people. I'm just not going to do the few parts I don't agree with.

The sense of entitlement so many of you have makes me sick. The world doesn't revolve around you. Just because there is no reason you can't doesn't mean that he is required to facilitate that for you. The pharmacist could have flat-out refused to sell it to her, and as long as he didn't pick her out specifically to only refuse, he is in the right. He could have possibly violated company policy, but that is it.

He violated common sense a little bit by asking her to wait an hour, because I'm sure he knows that it is a very time-sensitive product, that is the only thing that irks me. He should have given it to her or denied it completely.

Nevermind that assisted suicide is currently illegal and Plan B is currently legal.

I doubt you'll make it through med school if you can't figure out that distinction.

At least I hope not.

No One Likes a Know-It-All: HappyHarryHardOn: RagingLeonard: HappyHarryHardOn: RagingLeonard: If this choade spent half the time he wasted writing this letter to slap on a rubber, maybe his whore girlfriend wouldn't need the pill.

(click profile)

(location: Deep in the heart of Texas)

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise

I am HappyHarryHardOn's complete lack of a sense of humor.

oh,well, hard to tell if this was serious or not around here...

(click profile)

(location: Canada)

A Canadian painting all Texans with the same brush?

I am Jacque's complete lack of surprise.

Now now.. talk about painting with the same brush.. there are 32 million Canadians.. and only 1/4 of them live in Quebec. (That would be the French part for those less informed individuals.) The rest of the country is relatively 'normal'.

/other than being socialists..

3steps: Now now.. talk about painting with the same brush.. there are 32 million Canadians.. and only 1/4 of them live in Quebec. (That would be the French part for those less informed individuals.) The rest of the country is relatively 'normal'.

Dude, you will never, ever convince me that curling is "normal."

steviesgirl777: Well I for one am prolife and I think if a woman is raped or something, as soon as it happens she should go get the plan B pill, mainly because the sperm hasnt even had time to fertilize the egg yet, so its not a life yet. When the cell starts to multiply, thats when it becomes a life. No if, ands, or buts about it.

Technically, the sperm and egg are 'life' well before they combine to form a (usually) complete human genome. The same can be said of any cell in your body. Every time you brush your teeth or go out into the sun, you're destroying thousands to billions of compartmentalized bits of organic matter which are, in the scientific sense (which is the only way a pre-zygote can be called 'alive'), alive in their own right.

So basically, sure. It's alive. You kill alive things all the time. We value some forms of life more highly than others, not really surprising in an omnivorous race incapable of photosynthesis. The non-human bits of life (skin cells, bacteria, pre-human zygotes) don't have the same value, and it's not really a big deal if we cause 'em to die most of the time.

jst3p: Ringshadow: Ya see, I could go with this protest if that was the reason they gave for not wanting to do it.

But why should they have to give anyone any reason. They went to school for the better part of a decade. They incurred the cost of their degree. They are exposed to the risk of a malpractice suit. I know it is age discrimination but even "protected" classes are not open and shut cases. A doctor can refuse a liver transplant to a 70 year old due to his age.

I am sure you can find a doctor that will do it, someone will take the money, but I just don't like the idea of strong arming an M.D. for an elective procedure.

Because the BC implant is elective but they had no problem at all recommending I do that instead?

kellynoel: juggs: I like all the responses about how if he doesn't want to hand out plan B, he should get a different line of work. As a future medical student, I am morally opposed to assisted suicide, but that isn't going to stop me from becoming a doctor and helping people. I'm just not going to do the few parts I don't agree with.

The sense of entitlement so many of you have makes me sick. The world doesn't revolve around you. Just because there is no reason you can't doesn't mean that he is required to facilitate that for you. The pharmacist could have flat-out refused to sell it to her, and as long as he didn't pick her out specifically to only refuse, he is in the right. He could have possibly violated company policy, but that is it.

He violated common sense a little bit by asking her to wait an hour, because I'm sure he knows that it is a very time-sensitive product, that is the only thing that irks me. He should have given it to her or denied it completely.

Nevermind that assisted suicide is currently illegal and Plan B is currently legal.

I doubt you'll make it through med school if you can't figure out that distinction.

At least I hope not.

That would be relevant, but you are mixing up the legal and ethical aspects of my argument terribly. But, I can't expect everyone to understand that. We can't all get into Med school.

juggs: That would be relevant, but you are mixing up the legal and ethical aspects of my argument terribly. But, I can't expect everyone to understand that. We can't all get into Med school.

No, YOU mixed the legal and ethical aspects by drawing a comparison between the two issues.

Ringshadow: jst3p: Ringshadow: Ya see, I could go with this protest if that was the reason they gave for not wanting to do it.

But why should they have to give anyone any reason. They went to school for the better part of a decade. They incurred the cost of their degree. They are exposed to the risk of a malpractice suit. I know it is age discrimination but even "protected" classes are not open and shut cases. A doctor can refuse a liver transplant to a 70 year old due to his age.

I am sure you can find a doctor that will do it, someone will take the money, but I just don't like the idea of strong arming an M.D. for an elective procedure.

Because the BC implant is elective but they had no problem at all recommending I do that instead?

And your point?

Me: I don't think a Doctor should be forced to perform an elective procedure.

You: What about this elective procedure they are willing to perform?

I am afraid I don't follow you.

kellynoel: Nevermind that assisted suicide is currently illegal and Plan B is currently legal.

I thought it was legal in Oregon.

jst3p: kellynoel: Nevermind that assisted suicide is currently illegal and Plan B is currently legal.

I thought it was legal in Oregon.

I cannot speak with any knowledge about that, but if that is the case, feel free to read that into my statement.

Also, can I get an application for citizenship in Oregon? I want somebody to pump me full of hard core narcotics if it becomes evident that my death is forthcoming.

kellynoel: juggs: That would be relevant, but you are mixing up the legal and ethical aspects of my argument terribly. But, I can't expect everyone to understand that. We can't all get into Med school.

No, YOU mixed the legal and ethical aspects by drawing a comparison between the two issues.

How can you be on this forum this long and not learn reading comprehension? I can make an ethical judgment about which procedures I feel comfortable with, and I have the legal right to stand by that, as long as I am consistent about it.

The fact that assisted suicide is illegal is irrelevant, there are countless gray areas in medicine and controversial subjects that each doctor is free to decide about. I guess I shouldn't have used a "buzzword" like assisted suicide because you got confused and latched onto that. Abortion is another good example, but its a buzzword too and will probably throw you into a fit.

The smart bachelor knows that you keep the Plan B pills with the Roofies.

jst3p:

And your point?

Me: I don't think a Doctor should be forced to perform an elective procedure.

You: What about this elective procedure they are willing to perform?

I am afraid I don't follow you.

That the basis of it being elective has nothing to do with it?
But, to go with your point, ok, they shouldn't be forced to do it. They should at least be willing to talk to me about it, right? Instead of just brushing me off?

juggs: How can you be on this forum this long and not learn reading comprehension? I can make an ethical judgment about which procedures I feel comfortable with, and I have the legal right to stand by that, as long as I am consistent about it.

The fact that assisted suicide is illegal is irrelevant, there are countless gray areas in medicine and controversial subjects that each doctor is free to decide about. I guess I shouldn't have used a "buzzword" like assisted suicide because you got confused and latched onto that. Abortion is another good example, but its a buzzword too and will probably throw you into a fit.

My reading comprehension is fine, thanks for asking. Your belated distinction between the two issues - which, by the way, is exactly what I was driving at - does not negate the absolute ridiculousness of your original statements.

I shudder to think that you find the legalities of various "controversial subjects" to be "irrelevant."

Furthermore, assisted suicide is not a buzzword and the word buzzword does not require quotation marks unless you are quoting it from someone. (See above for an example of how quotation marks are actually used.) Similarly, abortion is not a buzzword, either.

Finally, you're a raging cock, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

I want to walk into a hospital with a wad of money, and get my left foot amputated due to fear of getting athlete's foot on it sometime in the future.

Also, it allow me to park in great spots.

For some odd reason, doctors won't perform surgery on me.

Amputations are completely legal too. Completely elective procedure.

Ringshadow: That the basis of it being elective has nothing to do with it?

I only qualify it that way because if there were an emergency lifesaving procedure that need to be done I would disagree with a doctor refusing on moral grounds. I can't think of one but I have learned to word things carefully around here.


But, to go with your point, ok, they shouldn't be forced to do it. They should at least be willing to talk to me about it, right? Instead of just brushing me off?

Should? What they should do is not as important as what they are obligated to do.

Sure, they should sit you down and make sure your precious little feelings aren't hurt while they explain in detail why they wont do it.

Condescending attitude aside, why should they spend their time arguing with you about something they already know they aren't going to do anyway? From a customer service point of view they probably should if they want to keep you as a patient but you make it sound like you are entitled to their time.

Lanctwa: I want to walk into a hospital with a wad of money, and get my left foot amputated due to fear of getting athlete's foot on it sometime in the future.

Also, it allow me to park in great spots.

For some odd reason, doctors won't perform surgery on me.

Amputations are completely legal too. Completely elective procedure.

Do you appreciate that such asinine scenarios do not actually have any bearing on reality?

FredaDeStilleto: The pharmacist needs to quit if s/he feels the need to personally control the sale of legal merchandise.

Yup. Why you're disagreeing with me is beyond anyone's comprehension.

Oh that's right. I suggested she take her business elsewhere. What a dumb idea; why take action when you can just whine on the Internet?

No one is addressing the most serious question here:

Was she, in fact a cheap, filthy whore? I am guessing "yes".

juggs: kellynoel: juggs: That would be relevant, but you are mixing up the legal and ethical aspects of my argument terribly. But, I can't expect everyone to understand that. We can't all get into Med school.

No, YOU mixed the legal and ethical aspects by drawing a comparison between the two issues.

How can you be on this forum this long and not learn reading comprehension? I can make an ethical judgment about which procedures I feel comfortable with, and I have the legal right to stand by that, as long as I am consistent about it.

The fact that assisted suicide is illegal is irrelevant, there are countless gray areas in medicine and controversial subjects that each doctor is free to decide about. I guess I shouldn't have used a "buzzword" like assisted suicide because you got confused and latched onto that. Abortion is another good example, but its a buzzword too and will probably throw you into a fit.

What if the only pharmacist in some rural area does not want to prescribe AIDs meds?

Some people (myself included) would say that anything that is legal should be readily available.

jst3p: Ringshadow: That the basis of it being elective has nothing to do with it?

I only qualify it that way because if there were an emergency lifesaving procedure that need to be done I would disagree with a doctor refusing on moral grounds. I can't think of one but I have learned to word things carefully around here.


But, to go with your point, ok, they shouldn't be forced to do it. They should at least be willing to talk to me about it, right? Instead of just brushing me off?

Should? What they should do is not as important as what they are obligated to do.

Sure, they should sit you down and make sure your precious little feelings aren't hurt while they explain in detail why they wont do it.

Condescending attitude aside, why should they spend their time arguing with you about something they already know they aren't going to do anyway? From a customer service point of view they probably should if they want to keep you as a patient but you make it sound like you are entitled to their time.

Uh, considering an annual appointment is damn near four hundred dollars uninsured, damn straight I'm entitled to their time. I'm paying out the nose for their time, so the doctor blowing me off when I want to discuss something is damn stupid. "Because we say so" is not and will never be a good enough reason for me.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree, as it's clear we're on opposite sides of the fence on this?

youShotWhoInTheWhatNow:

What if the only pharmacist in some rural area does not want to prescribe AIDs meds?

Some people (myself included) would say that anything that is legal should be readily available.


There are counters to this argument I remember from other Plan B threads. What about medication that is expensive to carry and not often requested for a given area. Should every pharmacy be forced to carry and dispense every possible prescription medication? If no one comes in for that AIDS medication for three years, should the pharmacy have to keep some on hand?

I tend to side with the rights of the business owner. If they choose not to carry something and you want it, go somewhere else. If an employee refuses to sell something it is up to the owner.. allow it or tell the schmuck to get to stepping.

If there is a pharmacy there is an ER nearby and I believe (although I could be mistaken) ERs are required to carry Plan B.

kellynoel: My reading comprehension is fine, thanks for asking. Your belated distinction between the two issues - which, by the way, is exactly what I was driving at - does not negate the absolute ridiculousness of your original statements.

I shudder to think that you find the legalities of various "controversial subjects" to be "irrelevant."

Furthermore, assisted suicide is not a buzzword and the word buzzword does not require quotation marks unless you are quoting it from someone. (See above for an example of how quotation marks are actually used.) Similarly, abortion is not a buzzword, either.

Finally, you're a raging cock, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

As a proud University of South Carolina rugby player, I take the raging cock comment in the best possible way.

If you are going to get this upset about arguing with someone on the internet, maybe you should take it easy for a while and not try to insult everyone who doesn't agree with you fully one every point. I'm interested in how defending my position to someone who has insulted and wished failure on me makes me a bad person.

I know my medical law and ethics, not as much as I'm sure as some here on Fark, but definitely more than most. I gave a very balanced comment on the subject, and you tried to attack it by misunderstanding me then constantly going back to one point that had nothing to do with the argument. Assisted suicide isn't an irrelevant topic in our society, but it specifically isn't relevant to my argument, it was just an example of a medical ethics issue.

Perhaps my Weeners wasn't worded perfectly. It was relatively clear, but I guess you found a way to be confused. There is a reason I'm an engineering/pre-med student instead of an English literature major, perhaps.

For the record, I called those topics "buzzwords" because they are highly visible controversial topics that people and the media get all worked up about. As opposed to the controversies that stay pretty much within the medical fields.

Does my use of quotations there offend you, or is it okay?

Jeffrey.Rodriguez: Exit seat, need the leg room.

mypalmike: Seriously, I had a whole box of Lifestyles where every one broke. OK, OK, yeah, I stopped using them after like the 3rd time.

/ Durex ftw.

Trojan ultra thin are my fav.

So the "seat on the plane" fark meme... what's it all about? I never got where this one originated.

have not read entire thread.
who uses spermicide anyways?
who cares if you get dicked around in the store, the article said they went there to test the availability of Plan B. No reason to write some dumb article on the internet. Get the Fark over it.

I got the same kind of shiat when I asked my gynocologist about Plan B.
She basically told me it was abortion and gave me a look like I was planning to murder someone.

/maybe I should find a different doctor...

Ringshadow: Uh, considering an annual appointment is damn near four hundred dollars uninsured, damn straight I'm entitled to their time. I'm paying out the nose for their time, so the doctor blowing me off when I want to discuss something is damn stupid. "Because we say so" is not and will never be a good enough reason for me.

If I don't like the service I get from a lawyer or the guy who does my taxes I find someone else. You may feel like you should be getting better service but you aren't entitled to anything.


Perhaps we should agree to disagree, as it's clear we're on opposite sides of the fence on this?


I don't even know which fence we are on. At first it seemed you felt you should be able to get the procedure from any doctor. Then you want your doctor to hear you out. What is it you really think you are entitled to and why?

juggs: If you are going to get this upset about arguing with someone on the internet, maybe you should take it easy for a while and not try to insult everyone who doesn't agree with you fully one every point. I'm interested in how defending my position to someone who has insulted and wished failure on me makes me a bad person.

Considering that you launched into this discussion with an affront to my reading skills and the insinuation that I couldn't get into medical school, I think you should refrain from offering such advice.

juggs: I know my medical law and ethics, not as much as I'm sure as some here on Fark, but definitely more than most. I gave a very balanced comment on the subject, and you tried to attack it by misunderstanding me then constantly going back to one point that had nothing to do with the argument. Assisted suicide isn't an irrelevant topic in our society, but it specifically isn't relevant to my argument, it was just an example of a medical ethics issue.

There is no "constant" about this situation. I made one statement. Get over it.

juggs: Perhaps my Weeners wasn't worded perfectly. It was relatively clear, but I guess you found a way to be confused. There is a reason I'm an engineering/pre-med student instead of an English literature major, perhaps.

I bow to your intellectual superiority.

Perhaps one day, after your nuts drop, you'll be able to consider the difference between professional discretion and imposing your morals on other people.

youShotWhoInTheWhatNow: What if the only pharmacist in some rural area does not want to prescribe AIDs meds?

Some people (myself included) would say that anything that is legal should be readily available.

That is a good point that people bring up in these discussions all the time, and deserves discussion. Personally, I would take advantage of the free market, open a pharmacy, and make fat wads of cash off the drugs that some people are too good for. I realize that isn't a perfect answer, but it is the closest to satisfying what I feel is right. In reality, there would probably be more of a compromise. But ethically, I can't agree with forcing someone to do something they are ethically opposed to.

Jadedgrl: I got the same kind of shiat when I asked my gynocologist about Plan B.
She basically told me it was abortion and gave me a look like I was planning to murder someone.

/maybe I should find a different doctor...

A few years back I was shopping for a new gyno because mine retired. I called someone on a recommendation and made an appointment. The receptionist asked me a few questions about myself including my age and marital status. I thought it was strange, but I told her.

Right before we hung up, she said "will you be expecting a prescription for birth control?" and I said "yes." She said "Dr. Kuhn doesn't prescribe birth control for unmarried women." I thought she was joking and laughed, but she wasn't joking.

juggs: That is a good point that people bring up in these discussions all the time, and deserves discussion. Personally, I would take advantage of the free market, open a pharmacy, and make fat wads of cash off the drugs that some people are too good for. I realize that isn't a perfect answer, but it is the closest to satisfying what I feel is right. In reality, there would probably be more of a compromise. But ethically, I can't agree with forcing someone to do something they are ethically opposed to.

I want to respond to this without so much as a hint of the biatchiness that I've let fly in my previous posts, and I hope you can take this comment out of the context of my previous snark.

I truly think that you are confusing ethics for morals. Every person and every professional is entitled to his or her own moral leanings. But ethics should not be inextricably woven with morals. A professional should be both expected to and able to do things that s/he may disagree with on a personal level because it is simply the right thing to do.

kellynoel: I truly think that you are confusing ethics for morals. Every person and every professional is entitled to his or her own moral leanings. But ethics should not be inextricably woven with morals. A professional should be both expected to and able to do things that s/he may disagree with on a personal level because it is simply the right thing to do.

But to the Doctor who does not want to perform abortions, pharmacist who does not want to dispense Plan B, and the MD who refuses to participate in an (theoretical but a quick google seems to bear out that it exists in Oregon) assisted suicide they believe they ARE doing the "right" thing. It isn't as simple as you make it out to be.