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(Reuters)   Measles "epidemic" feared, still no cure for parents who refuse to vaccinate their children   (uk.reuters.com) divider line 310
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4198 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Nov 2008 at 8:13 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-11-28 06:46:47 AM  
Madagascar closes its ports?

More seriously, I count measles as one of those rather harmless diseases, along with chickenpox. Back when I grew up, my parents insisted that I should go see a friend who had chickenpox, in order to get me infected. When I fell ill, kids from the entire neighborhood were pressed to pay me a visit by their parents in order to get infected, actually helping spread a small epidemic among the kids in the neighborhood.

Why? Because it's relatively harmless for children, and a one-shot disease. Once you've had it, there are great odds you'll never have it again. It is a severe hazard to adults though, so you would actually want your kids to get it while it's nothing more than a few days with a rather annoying rash and a fewer, and not when it's potentially lethal.

Although I'm really fond of vaccination against harmful diseases, I also believe that the human immune system needs a bit of a challenge every once in a while, such as grinding against a relatively harmless infection. You need to find a balance between vaccines against everything, and allowing harmful diseases to spread in the population.
 
2008-11-28 08:16:54 AM  
Cornwell: More seriously, I count measles as one of those rather harmless diseases, along with chickenpox. Back when I grew up, my parents insisted that I should go see a friend who had chickenpox, in order to get me infected. When I fell ill, kids from the entire neighborhood were pressed to pay me a visit by their parents in order to get infected, actually helping spread a small epidemic among the kids in the neighborhood.

Why? Because it's relatively harmless for children, and a one-shot disease. Once you've had it, there are great odds you'll never have it again. It is a severe hazard to adults though, so you would actually want your kids to get it while it's nothing more than a few days with a rather annoying rash and a fewer, and not when it's potentially lethal.

Although I'm really fond of vaccination against harmful diseases, I also believe that the human immune system needs a bit of a challenge every once in a while, such as grinding against a relatively harmless infection. You need to find a balance between vaccines against everything, and allowing harmful diseases to spread in the population.


At first I was going to snark... then I thought "What a well thought out and reasoned post."... then I thought "What's it doing on Fark?"... then I had a coffee.

/Nice post.... coffee is good.
 
2008-11-28 08:22:32 AM  
I was just talking about vaccines vs. autism the other day at the hair salon. First, let me set the stage: The hairdressers, nail girls, and 75% of the clients at this place are ignorant morons whose only news sources are Hannity soundbites & People magazine. Somehow the topic of Jenny McCarthy's kid came up and that one of the hairdressers refused to have her child vaccinated for fear of him "contracting" autism.

I argued that there's been no definitive link found, that the US Institute of Medicine did a study in 2004 & found that the mercury used in vaccines is eliminated by the child's bodies too fast to cause any lasting harm. The World Health Organization did a similar study in early 2008 & came to the same conclusion. I pointed out that kids get the MMR shot around the same time that autism symptoms start to show & that a lot of it was mere coincidence.

Their response? "Of COURSE they'd say that! It's a drug-company conspiracy!"

/Next time I'm there, I'm keeping my conversation topics to shopping & Dancing With the Stars discussions.
 
2008-11-28 08:22:35 AM  
except for the fact that the article says measles may lead to pneumonia or encephalytis even in healthy children
 
2008-11-28 08:23:01 AM  
Pfffft. I don't trust my child's welfare with these stuffy elitists and their fancy "degrees", "scientific tests" and book learnin'.

I prefer to take my medical advice from someone who knows what they're talking about:

www.dtdstudios.com
 
2008-11-28 08:25:20 AM  
If I remember right, here in the states kids are not allowed to attend school unless all their shots are up to date. I don't have any kids so I am going by 18 yr old memories of getting stuck just so I could attend school.

/farking tetanus shot
 
2008-11-28 08:29:03 AM  
Awesome. Another vaccine thread on Fark...

they're some of my favorite to observe simply because in one instant, every single, childless basement-dweller becomes a medical expert with years of research into vaccines.

In the end, however, the flamewar becomes a delicious blend of red herring and ad hominem, and just like most other arguments, everyone leaves with the same opinion they came in with.

/still fun to watch
 
2008-11-28 08:29:11 AM  
Ed Finnerty: Pfffft. I don't trust my child's welfare with these stuffy elitists and their fancy "degrees", "scientific tests" and book learnin'.

I prefer to take my medical advice from someone who knows what they're talking about:


It should be the parent's call, not the government.
 
2008-11-28 08:34:28 AM  
phenn: Ed Finnerty: Pfffft. I don't trust my child's welfare with these stuffy elitists and their fancy "degrees", "scientific tests" and book learnin'.

I prefer to take my medical advice from someone who knows what they're talking about:

It should be the parent's call, not the government.


Durr hurr hurr
 
2008-11-28 08:35:19 AM  
Cornwell: Although I'm really fond of vaccination against harmful diseases, I also believe that the human immune system needs a bit of a challenge every once in a while, such as grinding against a relatively harmless infection.

Vaccination *is* a way of letting your immune system take on a harmless infection. It's like letting your kids play with mud to keep them from becoming allergenic.
 
2008-11-28 08:36:54 AM  
Unfortunately, there is still no vaccine to prevent stupid.
 
2008-11-28 08:40:01 AM  
mattyc: in one instant, every single, childless basement-dweller becomes a medical expert with years of research into vaccines.

I see what you're getting at and agree with you for the most part. However, I have a knee-jerk distaste for singling out childless people in threads about children as though they have no common sense or are somehow unable to understand how to raise children. Like the mere birthing of a child suddenly imbues people with some magical knowledge.

/rant
//on with the flamewar
 
2008-11-28 08:41:05 AM  
phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.

Although I'll probably regret this, I'll bite: Why? What are your reasons?
 
2008-11-28 08:43:44 AM  
...still no cure for parents who refuse to vaccinate their children

Extinction?
 
2008-11-28 08:45:42 AM  
phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.

Except in the cases of idiot parents who do real harm to children through farked-up medical quackery that runs counter to mainstream medicine, and also harm from lack of medical treatment due to religious beliefs. Then it's the responsibility to step in and take charge so that kids get the regular health care that they need.

You're claim that the parents should be in charge only holds water when we are talking about competent parents. God gives plenty of incompetent people the ability to have children, so we have to watch out for the kids who have idiot parents through no fault of their own.
 
2008-11-28 08:46:28 AM  
brigid_fitch: phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.

Although I'll probably regret this, I'll bite: Why? What are your reasons?


The parent is the child's guardian and the one to make healthcare decisions. I think that's proper, even if there are some parents who do a less than stellar job.

Parents should most certainly discuss vaccination with their pediatricians. I bristle at the idea of the state taking that responsibility away from parents.
 
jph
2008-11-28 08:50:33 AM  
phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.fark that shiat. Unvaccinated hosts are how diseases mutate. A mutation can lead to a disease getting into children that are vaccinated. My older daughter, who has all of her vaccines and in whom I did not "see the light go out of her eyes" (McCarthy) is perfectly normal. Her sister is not vaccinated (too young) and her main threat is idiot parents we know who don't do vaccinations.

I think those parents should be taken out and shot for endangering other kids who have had it, and infants who are too young to get them. I mean it...start filling the ditches.
 
2008-11-28 08:50:56 AM  
phenn: Ed Finnerty: Pfffft. I don't trust my child's welfare with these stuffy elitists and their fancy "degrees", "scientific tests" and book learnin'.

I prefer to take my medical advice from someone who knows what they're talking about:

It should be the parent's call, not the government.


No, I'm sorry it's not. Unless you have documentable religious reasons.

Now for why it's not.

Infectious disease affects us all. If there's a measles outbreak we're talking quarantines, loss of productive work, damage to people for life. These things affect me, they affect you, and you will vaccinate your child and get yourself vaccinated.

Or, we will toss you in jail and vaccinate your child anyway. Clear?
 
2008-11-28 08:51:12 AM  
DamionAG: If I remember right, here in the states kids are not allowed to attend school unless all their shots are up to date. I don't have any kids so I am going by 18 yr old memories of getting stuck just so I could attend school.

/farking tetanus shot


Schools now have a "religious exemption" that parents can file. Some religions claim that vaccination is against their tenants because it contaminates the blood, or that it runs counter to the will of god, or some other crap like that. It's merely a little piece of paper that the parents sign to the school office saying that it's against their religious beliefs to vaccinate their kids, and then the kids are let in without the required vaccinations. But the catch is that the signed paper is merely on the honor system. There is no one who asks specifically what religion the parents are, or what tenant of their religion prohibits vaccination. There is no test that the schools can perform to decide who is really serious about it, and who is a fraud. So the result is that now more and more parents are signing this paperwork as a sham cover-up to not vaccinate their kids because of the baseless fear that Jenny McCarthy is spewing.
 
2008-11-28 08:51:35 AM  
mrmopar5287: phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.

Except in the cases of idiot parents who do real harm to children through farked-up medical quackery that runs counter to mainstream medicine, and also harm from lack of medical treatment due to religious beliefs. Then it's the responsibility to step in and take charge so that kids get the regular health care that they need.

You're claim that the parents should be in charge only holds water when we are talking about competent parents. God gives plenty of incompetent people the ability to have children, so we have to watch out for the kids who have idiot parents through no fault of their own.


If you ever get the time and inclination, you might want to read up on a young man named Abraham Cherrix. He is a cancer patient who was ordered, by the courts, to go back into chemotherapy and radiation therapy, even though it nearly killed him the first time out.

The judge tried all kinds of shiat (taking him away from his parents, making him a ward of the court, etc.). I see this as entirely over-reaching.

I think it's just a bit extreme.
 
2008-11-28 08:52:17 AM  
Natural selection is a biatch.
 
2008-11-28 08:54:01 AM  
phenn: brigid_fitch: phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.

Although I'll probably regret this, I'll bite: Why? What are your reasons?

The parent is the child's guardian and the one to make healthcare decisions. I think that's proper, even if there are some parents who do a less than stellar job.

Parents should most certainly discuss vaccination with their pediatricians. I bristle at the idea of the state taking that responsibility away from parents.


Really it is a public health issue, not a personal choice. People are not allowed to have festering piles of garbage strewn about their land for much the same reason.
 
2008-11-28 08:57:52 AM  
phenn:

If you ever get the time and inclination, you might want to read up on a young man named Abraham Cherrix. He is a cancer patient who was ordered, by the courts, to go back into chemotherapy and radiation therapy, even though it nearly killed him the first time out.

The judge tried all kinds of shiat (taking him away from his parents, making him a ward of the court, etc.). I see this as entirely over-reaching.

I think it's just a bit extreme.


That's an irrelevant example. Cancer isn't catching. As has already been said, the reason that it's the government's business is because unvaccinated children are a hazard to everyone, not just themselves.
 
2008-11-28 08:58:02 AM  
phenn: you might want to read up on a young man named Abraham Cherrix.

There's a bit of a difference here: cancer still doesn't cause epidemics.

/got kids, goes to church, and bloody well got them vaccinated
//the kids, not the church
///still no vaccination against religion
 
2008-11-28 09:02:49 AM  
phenn: The parent is the child's guardian and the one to make healthcare decisions. I think that's proper, even if there are some parents who do a less than stellar job.

Parents should most certainly discuss vaccination with their pediatricians. I bristle at the idea of the state taking that responsibility away from parents.


Except for the simple fact that there are some parents who wouldn't be responsible enough to trust to get their child vaccinated. Enough non-vaccinated children & you have an outbreak like the article discusses. As Jormungandr pointed out, it's a public health issue. If all children are vaccinated, the risk of a resurgence of these diseases are greatly minimized.

So, just like the government requires all children to get an education, they require them to get vaccinated before enrolling in school.
 
2008-11-28 09:03:08 AM  
Cornwell: I also believe that the human immune system needs a bit of a challenge every once in a while, such as grinding against a relatively harmless infection.

Um, that's exactly what a vaccine is...
 
2008-11-28 09:05:08 AM  
There is a definite increase in autism. Even after removing mercury from the vaccines it is still increasing. Why can't they figure out what is causing it? I wonder what the autism rate is in kids that don't get vaccinations. It seems there would be enough of them to get some statistics.

I think it is a mix of genetics and environment and maybe even vaccines. It must be related to too many variables to easily figure out what is causing it. My doctor said we could wait a little longer to get the MMR because autism can be diagnosed at 18 months. At least then you can know it wasn't the MMR.
 
2008-11-28 09:05:26 AM  
I'm always surprised at how irresponsible some people are, endangering both themselves and the communities they live in by not vaccinating.

Well, preventive medicine is always hard to sell. If someone or their kid had measles and you had a shot to make it all go away? They'd demand it. If you had one that would prevent it from ever happening? Not so much. Separating the cost and the benefit significantly decreases the perceived need even if prevention is the overall far better (and in this case only effective) option.
 
2008-11-28 09:06:00 AM  
I was a bit surprised when the school district sent a note around warning about Pertussis outbreaks. I seem to remember that if you get your child the required three dTap (sp?) vaccines, they won't be a walking vector.

I was also surprised, because I had always heard Minnesota was a bastion of education and Germanic organization and precision. I really thought I'd left wackaloon vaccination objectors behind in the Bible Belt.

So I emailed the school nurse, and sure enough--there are kids walking around the schools with no vaccines whatsoever--Polio, Whooping Cough, you name it.

/Of course then the wackaloons began approaching me in the Walgreen's touting the advantages of listening to Chris-Chin radio so I can get bizarrely paranoid, too

.
 
2008-11-28 09:06:42 AM  
Chicken pox might rarely kill somebody but it can leave your child with serious deformation. Some idiot parents we know forced their child to go to a "chicken pox" party and the complications caused lesions on her face which ate away her nose.

A perfectly little kid is now tragically deformed. Bet the parents feel great every time they look her in the face.
 
2008-11-28 09:09:28 AM  
I meant to say "perfectly healthy little kid".

She lives in London, her parents are artists, quite well known too. Hopefully enough people hear about her situation and other parents might not be so stupid.
 
2008-11-28 09:11:15 AM  
Today's young parents are idiots. That's all I can say about that.
 
2008-11-28 09:11:27 AM  
Out of curiosity, I'd like to ask if the people who argue that it should be the parents choice would also support the parent's having a choice when
* the parents are members of Jehovah's Witness and choose to refuse blood-transfusions for their children?
* the parents are members of Christian Science and choose to treat their children with prayer?
* the parents believe in New Age teachings, and choose to treat their children with crystals, enemas, aura-manipulations and the like?
* etc.

Or is there some specific reason as to why vaccines should be optional, while the above should be prohibited?
 
2008-11-28 09:12:16 AM  
What I have learned from this thread is that Typhoid Mary was wrongfully imprisoned, and should have been allowed to continue working as a cook. Just as long as we don't have Big Government making our health decisions for us.
 
2008-11-28 09:13:30 AM  
The big problem is people refusing vaccines then "home schooling" with a bunch of other kids without vaccines. It will lead to a large outbreak.
 
2008-11-28 09:15:24 AM  
DamionAG: If I remember right, here in the states kids are not allowed to attend school unless all their shots are up to date. I don't have any kids so I am going by 18 yr old memories of getting stuck just so I could attend school.

/farking tetanus shot


This is not true. You can get a waiver for just about anything. I know a lot of nonvaccinators, and quite a few attend public school. I also assumed you had to have them up to date when you went to school, but there are apparently ways around it.
 
2008-11-28 09:16:05 AM  
It's because of the mind condrol Dronemitter, the mind control.
 
2008-11-28 09:17:12 AM  
phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.

phenn: The parent is the child's guardian and the one to make healthcare decisions.

Absolutely it should be the parents' call.

And if you as a parent decide not to vaccinate your snowflakes (as is your right), then any church/school/playgroup/sports club needs to have the right to ask your little plague-ridden snowflakes to keep away. You can home-school them until they're eighteen.
 
2008-11-28 09:17:16 AM  
Cornwell: It is a severe hazard to adults though,

One of the dad's at my daughter's old school picked up either chicken pox or measles, put him in the hospital for a bit and it was rough going for a while.

brigid_fitch: The hairdressers, nail girls, and 75% of the clients at this place are ignorant morons whose only news sources are Hannity soundbites & People magazine.

The ones I know around here who refuse to get the shots are the granola/hippie types. At my daughter's old school I think 75% of the kids weren't immunized. Pox went around and they almost closed because of it.

Ed Finnerty: I prefer to take my medical advice from someone who knows what they're talking about:

I'd hit it. I'd hit it so hard that I'd find a cure for HIV when I was done, or something like that.
 
2008-11-28 09:21:42 AM  
Touched Inappropriately By The Hand Of God: Out of curiosity, I'd like to ask if the people who argue that it should be the parents choice would also support the parent's having a choice when
* the parents are members of Jehovah's Witness and choose to refuse blood-transfusions for their children?
* the parents are members of Christian Science and choose to treat their children with prayer?
* the parents believe in New Age teachings, and choose to treat their children with crystals, enemas, aura-manipulations and the like?
* etc.

Or is there some specific reason as to why vaccines should be optional, while the above should be prohibited?


You can't compare taking a risk getting measles or rubella to denying a child a blood transfusion. I see no evidence that chicken pox is any less dangerous than the other two, as a matter of fact, and yet when I was a kid the word "chickenpox" didn't cause people to piss their pants and cry like a little girl. That's because it shouldn't, it's not that dangerous. In a few years were going to be hearing about the horrible, horrible risks that some people are taking with their kids because they're risking them getting chicken pox.

Why is that? Simply because the vaccine is available the disease is suddenly more dangerous?

Just FYI, vaccinations do not provide lifelong protection and as adults, we still need boosters. So, are all of you pro-vaccine assholes getting your shots? Why are you putting us all at risk for an epidemic?
 
2008-11-28 09:23:40 AM  
I'm just waiting for a kid to die of measles pneumonia, end up retarded from measles encephalitis, sterile from mumps orchitis. Then I'll point and laugh at those dumbass parents.
 
2008-11-28 09:24:03 AM  
My GF's dad, a physician, told me there was an outbreak of whooping cough in some Kentucky(?) town recently. Apparently, there's a large population of homeschool/non-vaccination types there. I guess nobody told them Jebus may use WC to knock off their little crib lizards.
 
2008-11-28 09:24:45 AM  
badhatharry: There is a definite increase in autism. Even after removing mercury from the vaccines it is still increasing. Why can't they figure out what is causing it?

Better diagnosis. Previously kids with autism were misdiagnosed with teh stupid.
 
2008-11-28 09:25:36 AM  
Silly because no one gives a shiat if your kid gets measles, but there's lots of cool support groups for teh autism!
 
2008-11-28 09:25:37 AM  
Cornwell: I count measles as one of those rather harmless diseases, along with chickenpox.

Well, there's your problem right there.
 
2008-11-28 09:26:21 AM  
 
2008-11-28 09:28:02 AM  
Ed Finnerty: Pfffft. I don't trust my child's welfare with these stuffy elitists and their fancy "degrees", "scientific tests" and book learnin'.

I prefer to take my medical advice from someone who knows what they're talking about:


With tits like that, of course she is correct.
 
2008-11-28 09:28:18 AM  
phenn: It should be the parent's call, not the government.

No... if your "choice" places other responsible parent's kids in potential jeopardy, then you can "choose" to home-school them. If you do choose to home-school and not vaccinate, great... we need to get stupid out of the gene pool.

/The needs of the many...
 
2008-11-28 09:30:39 AM  
Sgt. Pepper: Cornwell: Although I'm really fond of vaccination against harmful diseases, I also believe that the human immune system needs a bit of a challenge every once in a while, such as grinding against a relatively harmless infection.

Vaccination *is* a way of letting your immune system take on a harmless infection. It's like letting your kids play with mud to keep them from becoming allergenic.


I don't understand why this has to be repeated so often, but I'm going to repeat it anyway. Vaccines ARE a challenge to the immune system. Vaccines aren't magic and they don't immediately protect you since it's not an introduction of premade antibodies. They introduce dead organisms or weak live ones to the body; a vaccine is a purposeful infection of the disease you want to be protected against. Your immune system takes a look at the germs that have been introduced and creates antibodies for them. This gives the body a head start on fighting the infection should a real one occur. As far as your body is concerned, it's just like getting the infection naturally. The difference is the germs are weakened or killed so they are unlikely to make you ill/seriously ill. This gives the advantage of being able to fight the disease later without having to go through the worst symptoms (and potentially deadly complications) of it.
 
2008-11-28 09:31:44 AM  
Nishu: it's not that dangerous.

Only if you get it as a kid. As an adult, it can kill you.

/Had chickenpox twice... the second time, I had a fever of 105.5 and couldn't stop shaking for three hours. My doctor actually made a house-call.
 
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