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(LA Times)   Next salvo fired in War on Thanksgiving™: L.A. area kids banned from sharing feast dressed up as pilgrims and Native Americans because it's "too demeaning". Gobble gobble   (latimes.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine  
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1656 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Nov 2008 at 5:57 PM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



171 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2008-11-25 02:35:23 PM  
I'm offended at your offence...
 
2008-11-25 02:37:37 PM  
FARKing pilgrims get offended waaaaaaaaaay too easily. Hopefully the kids will be able to continue dressing up as their favorite gangsta rap hero.
 
2008-11-25 02:37:42 PM  
Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature, said she met with teachers and administrators in hopes that the district could hold a public forum to discuss alternatives that celebrate thankfulness without "dehumanizing" her daughter's ancestry.

Actually, it's "humanizing." It puts a human face on history. It encourages the kids to imagine life as native Americans and settlers.

Pretty daft for a professor.
 
2008-11-25 02:48:32 PM  
So...let the kids wear their Thanksgiving costumes on Halloween. Problem solved.
 
2008-11-25 02:50:14 PM  
"We're tired of [district officials] cowing down to people. It's not right."

There's a simple solution. Vote the fools out of office at the next school board election.
 
2008-11-25 02:52:35 PM  
When I was in grade school we used to dress up as slaves and masters for MLK day. That wasn't demeaning back then.

/Yes, this was in Alabama.
 
2008-11-25 02:57:58 PM  
 
2008-11-25 03:05:26 PM  
"It's demeaning," Michelle Raheja, the mother of a kindergartner at Condit Elementary School, wrote to her daughter's teacher. "I'm sure you can appreciate the inappropriateness of asking children to dress up like slaves (and kind slave masters), or Jews (and friendly Nazis), or members of any other racial minority group who has struggled in our nation's history."

Friendly Nazis struggled in our nation's history? Oh noes...
 
2008-11-25 03:12:53 PM  
Yet another example that serves as validation of my choice to send my children to private school.
 
2008-11-25 03:27:26 PM  

Nabb1: Yet another example that serves as validation of my choice to send my children to private school.


Because they get to participate in a whitewashing of history in the name of tradition and fun?
 
2008-11-25 03:33:02 PM  

Raiden333: Because they get to participate in a whitewashing of history in the name of tradition and fun?


Because I don't have to worry about political axe-grinding over things like creationism being taught as science on the one hand or PC bullshiat like this on the other. I did a few of these Thanksgiving things as a child, and amazingly, as I grew up, I still was able to grasp the other issues regarding the arrival of Europeans to the New World and the resulting struggles between them and the natives.
 
2008-11-25 03:34:42 PM  
"There is nothing to be served by dressing up as a racist stereotype,"

img219.imageshack.usimg219.imageshack.us

Stereotype?
 
2008-11-25 03:46:22 PM  

Raiden333: Nabb1: Yet another example that serves as validation of my choice to send my children to private school.

Because they get to participate in a whitewashing of history in the name of tradition and fun? the public school system in America is pathetic


All fixed.
 
2008-11-25 03:55:22 PM  

BobtheFascist: Stereotype?


He may have been unaware that he was being horribly offensive. We can only hope.
 
2008-11-25 03:57:39 PM  
I'm glad that I went to school in a time in which the school would just tell the parent to STFU, and that was the end of it.

Just keep your kid out of school that day...they are in kindergarten for christ's sake. They have plenty of time to deal with ugly realities the remainder of their lives.
 
2008-11-25 04:46:51 PM  
The debate is far from over. Some parents plan to send their children to school in costume Tuesday -- doubting that administrators will force them to take them off. The following day, some plan to keep their children home, costing the district attendance funds to punish them for modifying the event.

Both good ideas, maybe the area parents that are upset over this mess could exert some pressure over at UC Riverside. Maybe have Michelle Raheja's employment situation "modified" to show their displeasure over her meddling with a FORTY YEAR tradition. And let's not forget the next school district election, always a good time to register one's opinion. Of course all of this will probably be forgotten by next Monday.
 
2008-11-25 06:02:26 PM  
I dressed up as an Indian one year. Everyone kept asking about the red dot on my head.
 
2008-11-25 06:02:31 PM  
My 13 yr old wants to go hunting on Thursday, dressed as Pilgrims. I asked him if he could get more of that weed....
 
2008-11-25 06:04:32 PM  
Raheja is "using those children as a political platform for herself and her ideas," Constance Garabedian said as her 5-year-old Mountain View kindergartner happily practiced a song about Native Americans in the background. "I'm not a professor and I'm not a historian, but I can put the dots together."

Nice "cultural sensitivity." They're feather indians, not dot indians.
 
2008-11-25 06:05:04 PM  
But it's still okay if the girls dress/act like Paris Hilton or Britney Spears?
 
2008-11-25 06:05:15 PM  
"too demeaning".

www.latimes.com

Yeah, I can see their point.

/"Nice hat."
//"Thanks"
///"I'm farking with you."
 
2008-11-25 06:06:16 PM  
Wait, so what is the Indian costume? Are half the kids dressed in loincloths, or what?

Because I can think of a whole host of reasons that would be a dumb idea.
 
2008-11-25 06:07:23 PM  
*facepalm*
 
2008-11-25 06:08:16 PM  
"There is nothing to be served by dressing up as a racist stereotype,"


www.queenfashions.com
 
2008-11-25 06:08:41 PM  
The pilgrims ate Native Americans for the first Thanksgiving!!!!

The government doesn't want YOU to know!
 
2008-11-25 06:09:19 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: Raheja is "using those children as a political platform for herself and her ideas," Constance Garabedian said as her 5-year-old Mountain View kindergartner happily practiced a song about Native Americans in the background. "I'm not a professor and I'm not a historian, but I can put the dots together."

Nice "cultural sensitivity." They're feather indians, not dot indians.


I like this differentiation better: scope or squishee indian
 
2008-11-25 06:09:19 PM  
Woo hoo! Here's her Facebook!

She just needs to STFU.
 
2008-11-25 06:09:45 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: friendly Nazi


www.trekkiegeek.com

It happens.

The soup and link is hot.
 
2008-11-25 06:09:47 PM  
Not this again... didn't we just do this yesterday?

/summon whidbey
 
2008-11-25 06:10:32 PM  
I don't remember Mexicans in the feast anyways.

/whut?
 
2008-11-25 06:11:26 PM  
I can see her point, it's pretty crappy to give little kids the impression that Indians dressed up in some random mishmashed historically incorrect version of several tribes' traditional gear plus a bunch of fake suede and plastic beads and went to have dinner with their BFFs the Pilgrims. It's bedazzled history, and it smells like old cheese.
 
2008-11-25 06:11:30 PM  
i52.photobucket.com

just cuz
 
2008-11-25 06:12:17 PM  
This is for you, Michelle Raheja:
elvis-pelt.com
 
2008-11-25 06:13:14 PM  
STFU and make me some popcorn already, biatch.
 
2008-11-25 06:13:48 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: I can see her point, it's pretty crappy to give little kids the impression that Indians dressed up in some random mishmashed historically incorrect version of several tribes' traditional gear plus a bunch of fake suede and plastic beads and went to have dinner with their BFFs the Pilgrims. It's bedazzled history, and it smells like old cheese.


I'm sure the Pilgrims are accurately represented.

Won't somebody think of the Pilgrims.
 
2008-11-25 06:13:49 PM  
American Indians like to get drunk a lot.
 
2008-11-25 06:13:55 PM  

BobtheFascist: "There is nothing to be served by dressing up as a racist stereotype,"

Stereotype?


Well...yeah actually. Which group is that from? It's supposed to represent all Native Americans? Even those in New England? It's likely a Plains dress (based on when photography of natives began) and about as representative of the Native Americans that were near Jamestown as suggesting that you dress up like this. (new window). After all you're even from the Southwest. Picking one example to serve for everyone seems pretty stereotypical for me.

this would be more typical of Eastern Woodlands people...
Link (new window)
 
2008-11-25 06:14:12 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: It's bedazzled history, and it smells like old cheese.


APPROVES (new window)
 
2008-11-25 06:15:30 PM  

bartink: I'm sure the Pilgrims are accurately represented.

Won't somebody think of the Pilgrims.


They just need to equip the children with muskets and infectious diseases. I mean, more infectious diseases than you'd usually encounter in a kindergarten classroom.
 
2008-11-25 06:16:04 PM  
Do the indian kids still have to say "how" to the pilgrim kids when they come over for dinner?
 
2008-11-25 06:16:07 PM  
Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature


Talk about a narrow field.

I think I will specialize in Amish computer programming.
 
2008-11-25 06:17:22 PM  
Its possible to think two things at the same time.

1. The parents upset about this are idiots.

2. The school shouldn't waste time/resources/energy with this if it offends enough idiots.
 
2008-11-25 06:17:29 PM  

jst3p: Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature


Talk about a narrow field.

I think I will specialize in Amish computer programming.


Sequoyah would like a word with you...
 
2008-11-25 06:17:59 PM  

Nabb1: Yet another example that serves as validation of my choice to send my children to private school.


It validates that you really love your kids.
 
2008-11-25 06:18:22 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: bartink: I'm sure the Pilgrims are accurately represented.

Won't somebody think of the Pilgrims.

They just need to equip the children with muskets and infectious diseases. I mean, more infectious diseases than you'd usually encounter in a kindergarten classroom.


Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

/not justifying it, but I had heard that it wasn't really a factor in the overall situation.
 
2008-11-25 06:18:32 PM  
Maybe it's because I hate Thanksgiving anyway, but I always thought the whole celebration was a bit curious, considering how the native americans were treated then, and over the years. But the lady does have a point. Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right. There have been numerous traditions over the years that have been shelved because they were deemed offensive.
 
2008-11-25 06:19:00 PM  

jst3p: Talk about a narrow field.

I think I will specialize in Amish computer programming.


OMg haha Yeah I know right lol it's just like "omg let's get more whiskey the end."
 
2008-11-25 06:20:18 PM  

Jesus built my hybrid: I dressed up as an Indian one year. Everyone kept asking about the red dot on my head.



I dressed up as an Indian one year, and everyone wanted to know if I could comp their meals.
 
2008-11-25 06:20:29 PM  
We won that war. As I understand the rules we can tell the story any way we choose.
 
2008-11-25 06:20:47 PM  
I dress in authentic garb for pow wows and dance.
If someone had a holiday and said, hey, Arabs are Nobel Savages of the desert, and we will represent them in this pagent.
Then proceeded to design towel headed soastumes and put ties around them, and wear sheets like linus and
wait,
too late.
 
2008-11-25 06:21:27 PM  
I'm looking forward to demeaning my mother-in-law's lack of pumpkin pie.

//Does that count?
 
2008-11-25 06:21:38 PM  
Who's the porker with the nazi?
 
2008-11-25 06:21:53 PM  
But what about the turkeys? They're the ones being mass murdered.
 
2008-11-25 06:22:09 PM  

CowboyUpCowgirlDown: I'm looking forward to demeaning my mother-in-law's lack of pumpkin pie.

//Does that count?


Never demean her pie. Just eat the pie that came out of it.
 
2008-11-25 06:22:28 PM  
Who won the bloody war anyway?

ken_ashford.typepad.com
 
2008-11-25 06:22:32 PM  

BlorfMaster: just cuz


I realize that's just a drawing, but he's HOT!
Yes please! Do want!
 
2008-11-25 06:23:01 PM  
milliondollarspatula.files.wordpress.com
 
2008-11-25 06:23:43 PM  

sloppy shoes: MyrnaMinkoff: bartink: I'm sure the Pilgrims are accurately represented.

Won't somebody think of the Pilgrims.

They just need to equip the children with muskets and infectious diseases. I mean, more infectious diseases than you'd usually encounter in a kindergarten classroom.

Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

/not justifying it, but I had heard that it wasn't really a factor in the overall situation.


The smallpox incident took place in the 1760s I think, during Pontiac's uprising. While of course a terrible thing, it was some 200 years after smallpox began to ravage North America (remember the Spanish were trekking around and spreading disease well before Jamestown), and while it might have provided a tactical advantage in that battle/war was hardly a drop in the bucket of disease that swept the Americas.
 
2008-11-25 06:24:07 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: I'm not a historian, but I can put the dots together."


img81.imageshack.us
 
2008-11-25 06:24:50 PM  

dorje: But what about the turkeys? They're the ones being mass murdered.


Another revisionist trick. Everybody knows those turkeys commit ritual suicide in honor the Pilgrims and American Indians' friendly bonds.
 
2008-11-25 06:24:53 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: Raheja is "using those children as a political platform for herself and her ideas," Constance Garabedian said as her 5-year-old Mountain View kindergartner happily practiced a song about Native Americans in the background. "I'm not a professor and I'm not a historian, but I can put the dots together."

Nice "cultural sensitivity." They're feather indians, not dot indians.


Catch up, now they are "Call Center Indians" or "Casino Indians".
 
2008-11-25 06:25:50 PM  
Thanksgiving, when we remember the settlers receiving food and shelter from the Native Americans and solemnly announcing;

"And by the way, we want all the land except the really dry bits, in return please acept these pox laden blankets as a small token of our gratitude. In return, in 6 Generations time we will grant you the right to take the life savings from strangely fat white people wearing leisurewear in pastel shades. This is the mystery of life Farked-by-Conmen, tell your brothers."
 
2008-11-25 06:26:20 PM  

BobNesta420: There have been numerous traditions over the years that have been shelved because they were deemed offensive.


Lynchings.
Eeny meenie Minie Moe.
I think she has a Chinaman's chance in hell to win this.
She's i nDutch bigtime.
She's Jerry-rigging the argument.
Trying to Jew us out of our tradition.
Traditon!
Tradition!
I bet, and don't try to Welsh out on me here, that this will not end well.
She has a good of a chance of coming out on thop as you do of finding a bald headed black man standing on his head in a man hole reading the bible.
/that last bit is one I distinctly remember from childhood, when you were either a hickabilly, or an injun, or a jigaboo in my neighborhood.
//rural appalation roots
///god bless ignorant americans.
 
2008-11-25 06:26:41 PM  

sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

/not justifying it, but I had heard that it wasn't really a factor in the overall situation.


I'm pretty sure you're right, but I meant more the unintentional spreading of infectious diseases that us fancy pants Europeans brought over, what with the killing and the better immune systems and all.
 
2008-11-25 06:27:28 PM  
i141.photobucket.com
 
2008-11-25 06:27:47 PM  

jst3p: Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature


Talk about a narrow field.

I think I will specialize in Amish computer programming.


Big Fish, Small Lake. Nothing to do with the story, it's my Indian Name.

/Incontinence Problem
 
2008-11-25 06:27:54 PM  
You have taken the land which is rightfully ours. Years from now my people will be forced to live in mobile homes on reservations. Your people will wear cardigans, and drink highballs. We will sell our bracelets by the road sides, you will play golf, and enjoy hot hors d'oeuvres. My people will have pain and degradation. Your people will have stick shifts. The gods of my tribe have spoken. They have said, "Do not trust the Pilgrims, especially Sarah Miller."
 
2008-11-25 06:29:56 PM  

Psycoholic_Slag: Jesus built my hybrid: I dressed up as an Indian one year. Everyone kept asking about the red dot on my head.


I dressed up as an Indian one year, and everyone wanted to know if I could comp their meals.


I dressed as in Indian one year. I had to shorten my penis two inches.

/facts are facts people!!!
 
2008-11-25 06:30:49 PM  
FTFA:

Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature, said she met with teachers and administrators in hopes that the district could hold a public forum to discuss alternatives that celebrate thankfulness without "dehumanizing" her daughter's ancestry.


Oh for fark's sake....it's not like they're dressing up as alcoholic blackjack dealers from the Lucky Eagle Casino.
 
2008-11-25 06:31:42 PM  
Should the Indians get carbon credits for hunting all the large mammals of North America to extinction 10,000 years ago?
 
2008-11-25 06:32:29 PM  

BobNesta420: Maybe it's because I hate Thanksgiving anyway, but I always thought the whole celebration was a bit curious, considering how the native americans were treated then, and over the years. But the lady does have a point. Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right. There have been numerous traditions over the years that have been shelved because they were deemed offensive.



I bet you're a blast at parties.
 
2008-11-25 06:32:35 PM  
Whatever we do, we must not offend anyone, ever.
 
2008-11-25 06:33:41 PM  
FTFA: "I'm sure you can appreciate the inappropriateness of asking children to dress up like slaves (and kind slave masters), or Jews (and friendly Nazis), or members of any other racial minority group who has struggled in our nation's history."

I don't think I'm incorrect in saying that everyone has struggled at one point or another in our nation's history, and there was certainly a point (and there may come another one) where white people were not the majority race in America.

If the simple act of dressing up in stereotypical (and historical) garb is so powerfully offensive, maybe we ought to call the whole thing off and just walk around naked. Surely that wouldn't offend anyone.
 
2008-11-25 06:34:02 PM  
FTFA:

Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature, said she met with teachers and administrators in hopes that the district could hold a public forum to discuss alternatives that celebrate thankfulness without "dehumanizing" her daughter's ancestry.


Well, I hope they do that so they can get everyone together and tell her to shut the fark up at the same time.
 
2008-11-25 06:36:09 PM  

Epsilon: I don't think I'm incorrect in saying that everyone has struggled at one point or another in our nation's history, and there was certainly a point (and there may come another one) where white people were not the majority race in America.

If the simple act of dressing up in stereotypical (and historical) garb is so powerfully offensive, maybe we ought to call the whole thing off and just walk around naked. Surely that wouldn't offend anyone.


Approves.
 
2008-11-25 06:38:42 PM  

Holfax: You have taken the land which is rightfully ours. Years from now my people will be forced to live in mobile homes on reservations. Your people will wear cardigans, and drink highballs. We will sell our bracelets by the road sides, you will play golf, and enjoy hot hors d'oeuvres. My people will have pain and degradation. Your people will have stick shifts. The gods of my tribe have spoken. They have said, "Do not trust the Pilgrims, especially Sarah Miller."


Beat me to it, dammit.

www.newciv.org
 
2008-11-25 06:39:54 PM  

Epsilon: FTFA: "I'm sure you can appreciate the inappropriateness of asking children to dress up like slaves (and kind slave masters), or Jews (and friendly Nazis), or members of any other racial minority group who has struggled in our nation's history."

I don't think I'm incorrect in saying that everyone has struggled at one point or another in our nation's history, and there was certainly a point (and there may come another one) where white people were not the majority race in America.

If the simple act of dressing up in stereotypical (and historical) garb is so powerfully offensive, maybe we ought to call the whole thing off and just walk around naked. Surely that wouldn't offend anyone.


Yeah! And if you don't like something you are served at a restaurant, maybe you should just burn the whole city down!
 
2008-11-25 06:41:19 PM  
I just saw footage on TV, and the kids were wearing their costumes. There were a couple of demonstrators with signs, so it appears the kids are being allowed to wear their costumes.
 
2008-11-25 06:41:25 PM  

jst3p: Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature


Talk about a narrow field.


It's actually a pretty wide field. You'd be surprised.
 
2008-11-25 06:42:07 PM  
www.city-data.com

wants a word
 
2008-11-25 06:42:29 PM  
At what point did we decide that everyone has the right NOT to be offended?

If you are offended by the traditions of this nation tough farking titty. Stay at home where you wont experience anything other than your own personal world where everything is to your liking.

Leave thanksgiving alone and raise your milquetoast looser kid in a bubble someplace.
 
2008-11-25 06:44:16 PM  

The_Sponge: BobNesta420: Maybe it's because I hate Thanksgiving anyway, but I always thought the whole celebration was a bit curious, considering how the native americans were treated then, and over the years. But the lady does have a point. Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right. There have been numerous traditions over the years that have been shelved because they were deemed offensive.


I bet you're a blast at parties.


Ahh, the surefire comeback when anyone points out that there may be validity to someone's complaint. Waaaahhh, you're trying to ruin all my fun! Why do you have to complain about all my fun traditions just because they offend some other people who aren't like me? Get over it, etc., etc.

Personally, I don't give a shiat either way. I just wrote that she has a point and, as a native american, I think she's entitled to be offended.
 
2008-11-25 06:44:44 PM  

stewmadness: wants a word


You think that's bad, there's a school in Oklahoma still called the Tecumseh SAVAGES.
farm1.static.flickr.com

Ha, and in that pic they're playing the Seminole Chieftans. At least Chieftan doesn't imply "heathen devil creature," I guess.
 
2008-11-25 06:45:34 PM  

U.Betcher Associates: At what point did we decide that everyone has the right NOT to be offended?

If you are offended by the traditions of this nation tough farking titty. Stay at home where you wont experience anything other than your own personal world where everything is to your liking.

Leave thanksgiving alone and raise your milquetoast loser kid in a bubble someplace.



I'd like to suscribe to your newsletter.
 
2008-11-25 06:45:49 PM  

U.Betcher Associates: At what point did we decide that everyone has the right NOT to be offended?

If you are offended by the traditions of this nation tough farking titty. Stay at home where you wont experience anything other than your own personal world where everything is to your liking.

Leave thanksgiving alone and raise your milquetoast looser kid in a bubble someplace.


I'm confused, what is her child looser than? Your mom?
 
2008-11-25 06:46:04 PM  
I think the tradition needs to die, but not because it's offensive. It's historically inaccurate, and last time I checked, schools were supposed to be teaching facts, not silly traditions. I'm part native American... if you're offended by this tradition, you need to get a hobby.
 
2008-11-25 06:46:17 PM  
I dressed up as an Indian one year, and some old guy from Australia kept trying to break speed records on me.
 
2008-11-25 06:47:43 PM  

BobNesta420: Personally, I don't give a shiat either way. I just wrote that she has a point and, as a native american, I think she's entitled to be offended.



Considering that I lost money (craps table) during my last visit to an Indian casino, I'd say we're even.
 
2008-11-25 06:48:04 PM  

BobNesta420: Maybe it's because I hate Thanksgiving anyway, but I always thought the whole celebration was a bit curious, considering how the native americans were treated then, and over the years. But the lady does have a point. Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right. There have been numerous traditions over the years that have been shelved because they were deemed offensive.


I think that it is strange that anyone could take offense at this celebration. It was at this time that native americans were, most likely, held in the highest regard by the europeans of any time in history. The europeans were thankful to their god but also to their native american hosts/friends/bretheren in a time when they respected them and before they decided to slaughter them and take their land.

Maybe Ms. Raheja needs to settle down before condemning a celebration of perhaps the greatest example of cooperation between native americans and europeans. Either that or just deal the damn cards and bring me more firewater... chop chop.
 
2008-11-25 06:48:56 PM  
Pilgrims - the original Illegal Aliens.
 
2008-11-25 06:50:18 PM  
lh5.ggpht.com
 
2008-11-25 06:51:49 PM  

GypsyJoker: jst3p: Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature


Talk about a narrow field.


It's actually a pretty wide field. You'd be surprised.


I am sure I would. I was just going for the easy joke.
 
2008-11-25 06:52:12 PM  
bartink
lh5.ggpht.com


Was that a GIS for "big Atlanta fans"?
 
2008-11-25 06:54:03 PM  

zamboni:
I think that it is strange that anyone could take offense at this celebration. It was at this time that native americans were, most likely, held in the highest regard by the europeans of any time in history. The europeans were thankful to their god but also to their native american hosts/friends/bretheren in a time when they respected them and before they decided to slaughter them and take their land.

Maybe Ms. Raheja needs to settle down before condemning a celebration of perhaps the greatest example of cooperation between native americans and europeans. Either that or just deal the damn cards and bring me more firewater... chop chop.


I think the last part of your first paragraph nicely sums up why they may be offended. True, the moment showed great cooperation, but it also served as a precursor to the europeans slaughtering them and taking their land. If someone came to dinner at my house, and we had a lovely meal, lots of laughs, but then afterwards, he decided to murder my family and kick me out of my house, I'm not sure I'd be too into celebrating that kickass dinner we had each year.
 
2008-11-25 06:55:15 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: U.Betcher Associates: At what point did we decide that everyone has the right NOT to be offended?

If you are offended by the traditions of this nation tough farking titty. Stay at home where you wont experience anything other than your own personal world where everything is to your liking.

Leave thanksgiving alone and raise your milquetoast looser kid in a bubble someplace.

I'm confused, what is her child looser than? Your mom?


So... Am i to understand that you came here, to this thread, to talk about spelling and make mom jokes? or did you have an actual argument or point to make? something with some evidential or, failing that, some rhetorical weight? because what you did there was take an argument and respond with childish bullshiat.
 
2008-11-25 06:55:50 PM  
Yet another college professor who is nothing more than a chancre on the American body.
 
2008-11-25 06:56:59 PM  

U.Betcher Associates: So... Am i to understand that you came here, to this thread, to talk about spelling and make mom jokes? or did you have an actual argument or point to make? something with some evidential or, failing that, some rhetorical weight? because what you did there was take an argument and respond with childish bullshiat.


I'm sorry, am I to understand I've offended you? What makes you think you have the right NOT to be offended on the internet?
 
2008-11-25 06:57:27 PM  

Burn_Atlanta: Yet another college professor American who is nothing more than a chancre on the American body.


I would take the typical college prof over most other professions.
 
2008-11-25 06:57:48 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: "It's demeaning," Michelle Raheja, the mother of a kindergartner at Condit Elementary School, wrote to her daughter's teacher. "I'm sure you can appreciate the inappropriateness of asking children to dress up like slaves (and kind slave masters), or Jews (and friendly Nazis), or members of any other racial minority group who has struggled in our nation's history."

Friendly Nazis struggled in our nation's history? Oh noes...


See what happens when you sleep in and miss that 8 a.m. class? You miss important things.
 
2008-11-25 07:00:17 PM  
I think you should dress up as something you're truly thankful for.

Nobody is thankful for Pilgrims, and Native Americans didn't survive the first cut, which was, I believe, made by a Pilgrim, with a sword.

Imagine a Thanksgiving Costume Party: beers, boobies, video game, joysticks, maybe the odd bucket of KFC. It would create entire new lines of costumes seldom seen at Halloween.

Yes, I meant every single one of those commas.
 
2008-11-25 07:01:46 PM  

zamboni: BobNesta420: Maybe it's because I hate Thanksgiving anyway, but I always thought the whole celebration was a bit curious, considering how the native americans were treated then, and over the years. But the lady does have a point. Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right. There have been numerous traditions over the years that have been shelved because they were deemed offensive.

I think that it is strange that anyone could take offense at this celebration. It was at this time that native americans were, most likely, held in the highest regard by the europeans of any time in history. The europeans were thankful to their god but also to their native american hosts/friends/bretheren in a time when they respected them and before they decided to slaughter them and take their land.

Maybe Ms. Raheja needs to settle down before condemning a celebration of perhaps the greatest example of cooperation between native americans and europeans. Either that or just deal the damn cards and bring me more firewater... chop chop.


The Spanish fairly convincingly showed showed how the Europeans felt about the Native Americans around 1520 thanks to Hernan Cortes in Mexico. Then again in 1532 with the Pizarros in the Andes...and in 1539 with DeSoto raping his way from Florida to Kentucky. By 1607 I think European opinions of the indigenous people inhabiting the Americas was pretty well established.
 
2008-11-25 07:02:06 PM  
i239.photobucket.com
 
2008-11-25 07:05:02 PM  
FTA: "It's demeaning," Michelle Raheja, the mother of a kindergartner at Condit Elementary School, wrote to her daughter's teacher. "I'm sure you can appreciate the inappropriateness of asking children to dress up like slaves (and kind slave masters), or Jews (and friendly Nazis), or members of any other racial minority group who has struggled in our nation's history."

www.my360.com.au

Hey Ms Raheja-tard!
It was the European 'pilgrims' who were the struggling ethnic minority at the time of the first 'Thanksgiving'.
(It wasn't until YEARS later that the balance of power tipped in the colonists favor and the theft/slaughter/oppression of the natives began, but that's not even what the holiday is about at all.)

Protesting Thanksgiving is as stupid as protesting Christmas because the Jews & Romans oppressed Christians in the following decades.
 
2008-11-25 07:08:12 PM  
A celebration of white people invading land belonging to non-white people. Then the white people kill the non-white people and claim they all sat down and had dinner.

When are they going to start teaching the truth in schools?
 
2008-11-25 07:08:15 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: U.Betcher Associates: So... Am i to understand that you came here, to this thread, to talk about spelling and make mom jokes? or did you have an actual argument or point to make? something with some evidential or, failing that, some rhetorical weight? because what you did there was take an argument and respond with childish bullshiat.

I'm sorry, am I to understand I've offended you? What makes you think you have the right NOT to be offended on the internet?


No, you are not to understand that you've offended me because you haven't. If you'll read the previous post i didn't say i was offended, simply irked that you didn't even try to argue... you just dropped some silly ass joke... why even bother?
 
2008-11-25 07:08:53 PM  

djdole: FTA: "
Hey Ms Raheja-tard!
It was the European 'pilgrims' who were the struggling ethnic minority at the time of the first 'Thanksgiving'.
(It wasn't until YEARS later that the balance of power tipped in the colonists favor and the theft/slaughter/oppression of the natives began, but that's not even what the holiday is about at all.)

Protesting Thanksgiving is as stupid as protesting Christmas because the Jews & Romans oppressed Christians in the following decades.


You didn't make it to class often as a kid...did you?

Now without offering my opinion on whether or not she has the "right" to be offended, I do think it's important that you know at least the basic facts before you try to decide right and wrong...

/Spain is in Europe
 
2008-11-25 07:09:11 PM  
Diogenes:
Actually, it's "humanizing." It puts a human face on history. It encourages the kids to imagine life as native Americans and settlers.

Pretty daft for a professor.


The only problem is that what they are telling is about as historical as the Disney version of Pocahontas and has more to do with a great propaganda victory during the civil war to proof how much more religious the north was than those devils in the south. Now maybe if they had the pilgrims robbing grave goods, shooting each other in the back over food, genocide and accepting a little food for one year out of many, while condemning such a practice as ungodly, that would be more like the real thanks giving.
 
2008-11-25 07:09:34 PM  

Lord Snoopy's G.P.E.H.: I dressed up as an Indian one year, and some old guy from Australia kept trying to break speed records on me.


Jeesis... almost obscure!

/What do you mean by that, mate?
//You never, I repeat, never call a Kiwi an Aussie.
///Ball's in your court.
 
2008-11-25 07:12:20 PM  

limeyfellow: Now maybe if they had the pilgrims robbing grave goods, shooting each other in the back over food, genocide and accepting a little food for one year out of many, while condemning such a practice as ungodly, that would be more like the real thanks giving.


And if they dressed up as Romans, they should have orgies. Just having a recreation of the Senate would be just plain wrong.

Stupid argument.
 
2008-11-25 07:15:36 PM  

bartink: limeyfellow: Now maybe if they had the pilgrims robbing grave goods, shooting each other in the back over food, genocide and accepting a little food for one year out of many, while condemning such a practice as ungodly, that would be more like the real thanks giving.

And if they dressed up as Romans, they should have orgies. Just having a recreation of the Senate would be just plain wrong.

Stupid argument.


Except that it was the raiding of grave goods along with stealing crops from storage pits that enabled the Pilgrims to survive. At a feast celebrating their survival and thriving that is a bit more relevant than the sexual peculiarities of the Romans to the Roman system of government.
 
2008-11-25 07:15:53 PM  

U.Betcher Associates: No, you are not to understand that you've offended me because you haven't. If you'll read the previous post i didn't say i was offended, simply irked that you didn't even try to argue... you just dropped some silly ass joke... why even bother?


I know, I was joking. That happens on Fark sometimes.

Why even bother? Because your post was a bunch of name-calling nonsense that definitely didn't merit a real response, but I'm bored.

I don't think the mom is awful because she would prefer a historically accurate version of Thanksgiving be taught without putting kids in silly Halloween costumes any more than I think her child is a loooooooser.
 
2008-11-25 07:15:54 PM  
Thanksgiving - also known as "Native American Genocide Day"
 
2008-11-25 07:24:52 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: Except that it was the raiding of grave goods along with stealing crops from storage pits that enabled the Pilgrims to survive. At a feast celebrating their survival and thriving that is a bit more relevant than the sexual peculiarities of the Romans to the Roman system of government.


Not really. They are both inappropriate for a group of kids to re-enact.
 
2008-11-25 07:34:03 PM  

bartink: Tiberius Gracchus: Except that it was the raiding of grave goods along with stealing crops from storage pits that enabled the Pilgrims to survive. At a feast celebrating their survival and thriving that is a bit more relevant than the sexual peculiarities of the Romans to the Roman system of government.

Not really. They are both inappropriate for a group of kids to re-enact.


So we should make up an entirely different story of how that first year happened?
 
2008-11-25 07:34:31 PM  

jst3p: GypsyJoker: jst3p: Raheja, an English professor at UC Riverside who specializes in Native American literature


Talk about a narrow field.


It's actually a pretty wide field. You'd be surprised.

I am sure I would. I was just going for the easy joke.


Good deal. Have at it then.

/a Cherokee, an Iroquois, and a Huron walk into a church....
 
2008-11-25 07:37:49 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: I know, I was joking. That happens on Fark sometimes.

Why even bother? Because your post was a bunch of name-calling nonsense that definitely didn't merit a real response, but I'm bored.

I don't think the mom is awful because she would prefer a historically accurate version of Thanksgiving be taught without putting kids in silly Halloween costumes any more than I think her child is a loooooooser.


The historically correct version can wait until some 100 level history prof with a guilty conscience beats the cynicism into them with a 200 dollar textbook.

You would prefer we tell them that before their nation existed a bunch of hunter gatherers were here happily doing jack shiat with the place so we crushed them like ants and built a superpower?

Or... like the children they are, can we let them put on some farking costumes and enjoy the holiday without the PC police showing up and banning a nice childhood tradition in the hope that history's LOOSERS wont feel to badly about not figuring out agriculture and modern warfare fast enough.
 
2008-11-25 07:56:13 PM  

U.Betcher Associates: The historically correct version can wait until some 100 level history prof with a guilty conscience beats the cynicism into them with a 200 dollar textbook.

You would prefer we tell them that before their nation existed a bunch of hunter gatherers were here happily doing jack shiat with the place so we crushed them like ants and built a superpower?

Or... like the children they are, can we let them put on some farking costumes and enjoy the holiday without the PC police showing up and banning a nice childhood tradition in the hope that history's LOOSERS wont feel to badly about not figuring out agriculture and modern warfare fast enough.


I'm sure in that big, big brain of yours you can find some sort of middle ground between giving kindergarteners a college course on early American/Indian relations, then sending them to bed crying and dressing them up in cute costumes and pretending the whole thing was a giant happy party.
 
2008-11-25 07:59:35 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: U.Betcher Associates: The historically correct version can wait until some 100 level history prof with a guilty conscience beats the cynicism into them with a 200 dollar textbook.

You would prefer we tell them that before their nation existed a bunch of hunter gatherers were here happily doing jack shiat with the place so we crushed them like ants and built a superpower?

Or... like the children they are, can we let them put on some farking costumes and enjoy the holiday without the PC police showing up and banning a nice childhood tradition in the hope that history's LOOSERS wont feel to badly about not figuring out agriculture and modern warfare fast enough.

I'm sure in that big, big brain of yours you can find some sort of middle ground between giving kindergarteners a college course on early American/Indian relations, then sending them to bed crying and dressing them up in cute costumes and pretending the whole thing was a giant happy party.



I dunno...I say leave it. When you're five, everything should be a giant happy party.
 
2008-11-25 08:01:58 PM  

U.Betcher Associates: MyrnaMinkoff: I know, I was joking. That happens on Fark sometimes.

Why even bother? Because your post was a bunch of name-calling nonsense that definitely didn't merit a real response, but I'm bored.

I don't think the mom is awful because she would prefer a historically accurate version of Thanksgiving be taught without putting kids in silly Halloween costumes any more than I think her child is a loooooooser.

The historically correct version can wait until some 100 level history prof with a guilty conscience beats the cynicism into them with a 200 dollar textbook.

You would prefer we tell them that before their nation existed a bunch of hunter gatherers were here happily doing jack shiat with the place so we crushed them like ants and built a superpower?

Or... like the children they are, can we let them put on some farking costumes and enjoy the holiday without the PC police showing up and banning a nice childhood tradition in the hope that history's LOOSERS wont feel to badly about not figuring out agriculture and modern warfare fast enough.


I'm sorry did you just say that fact is cynical and "guilt?" I always thought that whole "reality has a liberal bias" was a joke and not an actual point of view...

There is surely a way to teach about the colonization of the Americas that doesn't discuss in every gory detail (grave robbing, rape, etc) but provides an accurate portrayal (and not an outright falsehood). Historical accuracy shouldn't take second chair to foolish pride.

And as to your statements, it's a shame that learning basic facts about American history pre-contact apparently are withheld until past whatever level of education you stopped (that isn't intended as a slight at you or your education, reading it I sound like an elite jerk, not my intention). "Sitting around and doing nothing" is a pretty piss poor representation of the Native Americans.

You should read up on the Mississippians, Hopewell, Adena, Hohokam, Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloan, or the Pacific Northwest. We've got agriculture, urban centers, canals (that are still in use today), construction unrivaled in size and scale until the end of the 19th century. It's a shame that they aren't discussed in middle school through high school, but there have been very impressive civilizations across North America prior to contact (and those are just some of the biggest/sexiest, to say nothing of the less flamboyant cultures that are far more sophisticated than just sitting around flinging arrows at passing deer).
 
2008-11-25 08:02:58 PM  

U.Betcher Associates: MyrnaMinkoff: I know, I was joking. That happens on Fark sometimes.

Why even bother? Because your post was a bunch of name-calling nonsense that definitely didn't merit a real response, but I'm bored.

I don't think the mom is awful because she would prefer a historically accurate version of Thanksgiving be taught without putting kids in silly Halloween costumes any more than I think her child is a loooooooser.

The historically correct version can wait until some 100 level history prof honest person with a guilty conscience beats the cynicism into lies out of them with a 200 dollar textbook. the truth.

You would prefer we tell them that before their nation existed a bunch of hunter gatherers were here happily doing jack shiat with the place so we crushed them like ants and built a superpower the truth?

Or... like the children they are, can we let them put on some farking costumes and enjoy the holiday without the PC police showing up and banning a nice childhood tradition in the hope that history's LOOSERS losers genocidal maniacs wont feel to badly about not figuring out agriculture and modern warfare fast enough driving the natives to extinction.


FTFY. If only I could fix it in your head.
 
2008-11-25 08:05:40 PM  
Here's a tradition I'd like brought back. On December 8 we round up all the Japanese and put them in internment camps. Fun times!

/let the little kiddies have their Indians & Pilgrims meal
 
2008-11-25 08:06:19 PM  
i know all of you had plenty of fun with your thanksgiving parties while you were growing up and you all turned out to be decent enough folk, but ...

the clamor here against this lady who doesn't like little kids being taught essentially FAKE history because it's a fun time is outrageous. you'd think the educated people on FARK might somewhat appreciate a silly thing like the truth. the people saying she should go find another country to live in are simply just rude a##holes.

please, all of you, go join the leader of iran and start telling people the holocaust didn't happen. then make a big party celebrating the joy of jews and nazis happily feasting together!
 
2008-11-25 08:06:57 PM  
To people trying to stop Thanksgiving.fark off and die.
 
2008-11-25 08:07:34 PM  
daddytypes.com
 
2008-11-25 08:10:28 PM  

Githerax: U.Betcher Associates: MyrnaMinkoff: I know, I was joking. That happens on Fark sometimes.

Why even bother? Because your post was a bunch of name-calling nonsense that definitely didn't merit a real response, but I'm bored.

I don't think the mom is awful because she would prefer a historically accurate version of Thanksgiving be taught without putting kids in silly Halloween costumes any more than I think her child is a loooooooser.

The historically correct version can wait until some 100 level history prof honest person with a guilty conscience beats the cynicism into lies out of them with a 200 dollar textbook. the truth.

You would prefer we tell them that before their nation existed a bunch of hunter gatherers were here happily doing jack shiat with the place so we crushed them like ants and built a superpower the truth?

Or... like the children they are, can we let them put on some farking costumes and enjoy the holiday without the PC police showing up and banning a nice childhood tradition in the hope that history's LOOSERS losers genocidal maniacs wont feel to badly about not figuring out agriculture and modern warfare fast enough driving the natives to extinction.

FTFY. If only I could fix it in your head.


Hey farker, the injuns weren't making happy fun time b4 the euro snooks showed them wuts up. You need to go watch you Apocalypto again, sport. We outthunk them, out moraled them, outeverything them. How do I know dumbass? Scoreboard.

The devil you don't know is a mean motherfarker.
 
2008-11-25 08:13:29 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: I dunno...I say leave it. When you're five, everything should be a giant happy party.


It can stay fun for the kids without lying to them and teaching them things their other teachers will have to undo later in life.
 
2008-11-25 08:14:11 PM  

The_Sponge: U.Betcher Associates: At what point did we decide that everyone has the right NOT to be offended?

If you are offended by the traditions of this nation tough farking titty. Stay at home where you wont experience anything other than your own personal world where everything is to your liking.

Leave thanksgiving alone and raise your milquetoast loser kid in a bubble someplace.


I'd like to suscribe to your newsletter.


Agreed
Subscription here too.

Why are people so thin skinned these days? Just to get their name in the paper? 15 seconds of internet fame?

/almost forgot the slashies.
 
2008-11-25 08:23:23 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: Red Shirt Blues: I dunno...I say leave it. When you're five, everything should be a giant happy party.

It can stay fun for the kids without lying to them and teaching them things their other teachers will have to undo later in life.


But there was actually a joint meal in the second or third year at Plymouth. So you could argue if they are celebrating that one day it really isn't a lie. And in kindergarten you really don't teach history at leat I wasn't.

I did this too back in 1969. It was more about making cranberry sauce, Indian (it was '69) drums, finding out about the Indians teaching about which crops to plant, and how the Indians had six days of thanksgiving a year.....one for fishing et al.
 
2008-11-25 08:27:42 PM  

dorje: But what about the turkeys? They're the ones being mass murdered.


And ducks, pigs, geese, and they look nice next to the mashed potatos.
 
2008-11-25 08:30:18 PM  

Other1: The_Sponge: U.Betcher Associates: At what point did we decide that everyone has the right NOT to be offended?

If you are offended by the traditions of this nation tough farking titty. Stay at home where you wont experience anything other than your own personal world where everything is to your liking.

Leave thanksgiving alone and raise your milquetoast loser kid in a bubble someplace.


I'd like to suscribe to your newsletter.

Agreed
Subscription here too.

Why are people so thin skinned these days? Just to get their name in the paper? 15 seconds of internet fame?

/almost forgot the slashies.


My problem is not with the tradition, a day to give thanks for the harvest/fruitful year, be with family and yes acknowledge the journey that got us here. However, we don't need to shove our fingers in our ears and scream NONONONONO at the prospect of incorporating some more fact into our mythology. I have no problem with hurting people's feelings...who doesn't love a good racist joke? The issue is the purpose behind it...if it's for entertainment, laughter, etc. of course you should get over it, no one takes "Tropic Thunder" seriously. However, many people only learn as much as schools teach them, we should make that education accurate, right? There's no purpose behind continuing this offense (unlike a joke where laughter is the purpose). You don't gain anything by painting the Pilgrims as saints, nor do you lose anything by portraying them as flawed. If you can prevent the "hurting" of other people at NO COST to yourself (no entertainment loss, no financial loss, no effort lost (you aren't the teacher)) why not do it?
 
2008-11-25 08:31:20 PM  
Man: Yes.
Sales Man: Dead Indian.
Man: What?
Sales Man: Have you recently bought a new cooker, sir?
Man: Yes.
Sales Man: Ah well, this is your free dead Indian, as advertised...
Man: I didn't see that in the adverts...
Sales Man: No, it's in the very small print, you see, sir, so as not to affect the sales.
Man: We've no room.
Sales Man: That's all right - you can put the dead Indian in the spare room on top of the dung.
Dead Indian: Me ... heap dizzy.
Man: He's not dead!
Sales Man: Oh well, that's probably a faulty cooker.

/second thing that came to mind for some reason
//Addams fam was first of course
 
2008-11-25 08:36:46 PM  

sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?


The one authenticated case of smallpox infected blankets may have been a mistake, not an intent to infect the indians. From what I remember reading, the commanding officer may not have known the blankets had come from plague victims.

Even if it was intentional, it hardly mattered in the bigger picture. Normal progression of disease swept through the indian populations since they had no natural immunities to the diseases brought over by the europeans.


/yes, I said indians.
 
2008-11-25 08:39:18 PM  

OgreMagi: sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

The one authenticated case of smallpox infected blankets may have been a mistake, not an intent to infect the indians. From what I remember reading, the commanding officer may not have known the blankets had come from plague victims.

Even if it was intentional, it hardly mattered in the bigger picture. Normal progression of disease swept through the indian populations since they had no natural immunities to the diseases brought over by the europeans.


/yes, I said indians.


Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.
 
2008-11-25 08:49:22 PM  

Red Shirt Blues:
Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.


Syphilis for one. I think some other STD's but that's the biggie. Over the last 400 years it has killed millions of Europeans, and used to be quite the epidemic. Certainly not the same as the 95% killed off by disease here in the Americas, but not too shabby as far as infectious disease goes.
 
2008-11-25 08:49:40 PM  

portscanner: A celebration of white people invading land belonging to non-white people. Then the white people kill the non-white people and claim they all sat down and had dinner.

When are they going to start teaching the truth in schools?


The North and South had to sit together at one point too there GA boy. Get busy rewriting those history books and passed by your local school boards.
 
2008-11-25 08:50:32 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: OgreMagi: sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

The one authenticated case of smallpox infected blankets may have been a mistake, not an intent to infect the indians. From what I remember reading, the commanding officer may not have known the blankets had come from plague victims.

Even if it was intentional, it hardly mattered in the bigger picture. Normal progression of disease swept through the indian populations since they had no natural immunities to the diseases brought over by the europeans.


/yes, I said indians.

Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.


They weren't immune, but as a nice gesture, the indians gave the europeans syphlis.
 
2008-11-25 08:52:22 PM  
Oh but they weren't immune to it, but the disease that Europeans encountered caused open wounds and pustules all over the body early in its course. The first wave that hit Europe similarly so (and as such in the less densely populated Americas it wasn't so virulent as it would be easy to avoid someone with the skin falling off their face). It only later mutated to be more discrete with its symptoms (like today)...the question still is in wondering what the European explorers were doing boning Natives with the skin falling off their faces.
 
2008-11-25 08:56:36 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: Red Shirt Blues:
Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.

Syphilis for one. I think some other STD's but that's the biggie. Over the last 400 years it has killed millions of Europeans, and used to be quite the epidemic. Certainly not the same as the 95% killed off by disease here in the Americas, but not too shabby as far as infectious disease goes.


OgreMagi: Red Shirt Blues: OgreMagi: sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

The one authenticated case of smallpox infected blankets may have been a mistake, not an intent to infect the indians. From what I remember reading, the commanding officer may not have known the blankets had come from plague victims.

Even if it was intentional, it hardly mattered in the bigger picture. Normal progression of disease swept through the indian populations since they had no natural immunities to the diseases brought over by the europeans.


/yes, I said indians.

Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.

They weren't immune, but as a nice gesture, the indians gave the europeans syphlis.


Well there's some big time karama for you.
 
2008-11-25 08:59:42 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: OgreMagi: sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

The one authenticated case of smallpox infected blankets may have been a mistake, not an intent to infect the indians. From what I remember reading, the commanding officer may not have known the blankets had come from plague victims.

Even if it was intentional, it hardly mattered in the bigger picture. Normal progression of disease swept through the indian populations since they had no natural immunities to the diseases brought over by the europeans.


/yes, I said indians.

Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.


Montezuma's Revenge? OK, not fatal, but... interesting.

From another source:

In the fifty years following Columbus' voyage to the Americas, an unusually strong strain of syphilis killed a high proportion of infected Europeans within a few months. Over time, the disease has become much less virulent.

Yet another source suggests it was somewhat one sided:

The theory on this is that there's a direct correlation between domestication of animals and infections disease e.g. bird and pig flus are animal diseases that initially pass to humans who live in close contact with the animals... then these humans subsequently pass the disease to other humans. Europe had three domesticated animals - the chicken, the pig and the cow. By contrast, the only domesticated animal in the Americas was the llama, and they were in a limited geographic area (i.e. the Andes). Most of the Americas had no domesticated animals at all (both the horse and cow came with the Spanish).

As a result, Europe had lived through a large number of infections, with the resulting population developing a relatively strong immunity to disease - the European's immune systems were 'trained'. By contrast, the Americas did not have many infections diseases, and therefore, the Native Americans had not passed through this process- their immune systems were much less 'trained'.

The end result - Europeans lived; Caribs, Arawaks, Aztecs etc. etc. and all the others, died.

If you're interested in this, you may want to read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond.

TMI?
 
2008-11-25 09:00:58 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: Oh but they weren't immune to it, but the disease that Europeans encountered caused open wounds and pustules all over the body early in its course. The first wave that hit Europe similarly so (and as such in the less densely populated Americas it wasn't so virulent as it would be easy to avoid someone with the skin falling off their face). It only later mutated to be more discrete with its symptoms (like today)...the question still is in wondering what the European explorers were doing boning Natives with the skin falling off their faces.



I snide comment popped into my head. The question is would it get me banned? The Europeans were trying to help them by giving them facials???

Am I going to hell for that?
 
2008-11-25 09:06:54 PM  

zamboni: Red Shirt Blues: OgreMagi: sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

The one authenticated case of smallpox infected blankets may have been a mistake, not an intent to infect the indians. From what I remember reading, the commanding officer may not have known the blankets had come from plague victims.

Even if it was intentional, it hardly mattered in the bigger picture. Normal progression of disease swept through the indian populations since they had no natural immunities to the diseases brought over by the europeans.


/yes, I said indians.

Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.

Montezuma's Revenge? OK, not fatal, but... interesting.

From another source:

In the fifty years following Columbus' voyage to the Americas, an unusually strong strain of syphilis killed a high proportion of infected Europeans within a few months. Over time, the disease has become much less virulent.

Yet another source suggests it was somewhat one sided:

The theory on this is that there's a direct correlation between domestication of animals and infections disease e.g. bird and pig flus are animal diseases that initially pass to humans who live in close contact with the animals... then these humans subsequently pass the disease to other humans. Europe had three domesticated animals - the chicken, the pig and the cow. By contrast, the only domesticated animal in the Americas was the llama, and they were in a limited geographic area (i.e. the Andes). Most of the Americas had no domesticated animals at all (both the horse and cow came with the Spanish).

As a result, Europe had lived through a large number of infections, with the resulting population developing a relatively strong immunity to disease - the European's immune systems were 'trained'. By contrast, the Americas did not have many infections diseases, and therefore, the Native Americans had not passed through this process- their immune systems were much less 'trained'.

The end result - Europeans lived; Caribs, Arawaks, Aztecs etc. etc. and all the others, died.

If you're interested in this, you may want to read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond.

TMI?


No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.
 
2008-11-25 09:22:43 PM  
Somebody's panties are wadded around the wampum pouch.

Teach the kids to clean fish and skin opossum then roast them on a fire with a few ears of corn.

Then after the feast wrestle a bar or two in honor of Ol' Daniel and Davey.
 
2008-11-25 09:26:09 PM  

zamboni: Jared Diamond.


There are a couple problems with Diamond's theories...he did a better job of discussing them as an interesting aside in his earlier book (Third Chimpanzee), but when he tries to extrapolate them out and make them such a pillar they tend to unravel. There are more domesticates in the Americas then just the Llama (to say nothing of the fact that he just says "oh yeah...and the Llama, but don't pay attention to it"), dogs all across, and of course guinea pigs were domesticated in South America (as well as some turkey domestication/taming and chicken was probably introduced in a domesticated form before Columbus). I'm not sure how much more disease infested you could get than rats guinea pigs.

The potential for animal/human transition is there.

If you consider the diseases that Native Americans already had (TB and Syphilis for example) have very long periods where you can spread the disease and before it kills you. For lower density populations it makes sense...a rapidly spread disease would wipe everyone out in a group before they could come into contact with another group. Epidemics could never happen and the disease would wipe its host out (and ultimately itself). Diseases evolved to have a longer incubation/infection period in order to continue to exist.

With European dense populations a disease like smallpox or plague can rapidly come into contact across a tightly packed population fast enough to outpace death rates...and so succeed in surviving. Basically, disease needs to survive too, and it can't kill its host too fast or it won't be able to survive. (The perceived paradox of "well how did it kill all the Native Americans if they were too spread out to catch it?" is explained through the constant sources of infection in European enclaves and expeditionary wanderings as well as the relatively "new" dense population centers that were rising at the time of contact)

/(He also completely discounts any plant domesticates outside the "Three Sisters" in an unrelated note)
 
2008-11-25 09:26:17 PM  

Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.


Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.
 
2008-11-25 09:26:51 PM  

SonikTooth: please, all of you, go join the leader of iran and start telling people the holocaust didn't happen.


Hey, I am still not convinced it did. I mean the sad truth is we will never really know for sure.
 
2008-11-25 09:29:07 PM  

zamboni: Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.

Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.


We also gave them pants.
 
2008-11-25 09:34:39 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: zamboni: Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.

Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.

We also gave them pants.


And they should be grateful. Seems like after a couple thousand years with their junk hanging out they'd get a clue. Sheesh.
 
2008-11-25 09:35:11 PM  
I am offended by everyone who has posted on this thread.

And if anyone is offended by that then I take offence to their taking offence to my taking offence, to infinity, and beyond.

/that is all
 
2008-11-25 09:37:07 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: zamboni: Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.

Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.

We also gave them pants.


Really? According to the most accurate historical record I thought all we had were knickers with stockings, and shoes and hats with enormous silver buckles.
 
2008-11-25 09:40:12 PM  
Meanwhile, in Orange County...
 
2008-11-25 09:42:22 PM  

Naked Hitler: I am offended by everyone who has posted on this thread.

And if anyone is offended by that then I take offence to their taking offence to my taking offence, to infinity, and beyond.

/that is all


Offensensitivity.
 
2008-11-25 09:43:47 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: Tiberius Gracchus: zamboni: Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.

Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.

We also gave them pants.

Really? According to the most accurate historical record I thought all we had were knickers with stockings, and shoes and hats with enormous silver buckles.


And enormous blunderbusses. You can't forget the blunderbuss.

/blunderbuss
 
2008-11-25 09:43:52 PM  

MyrnaMinkoff: jst3p: Talk about a narrow field.

I think I will specialize in Amish computer programming.

OMg haha Yeah I know right lol it's just like "omg let's get more whiskey the end."


I think I love you a little.
 
2008-11-25 09:43:54 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: Tiberius Gracchus: zamboni: Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.

Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.

We also gave them pants.

Really? According to the most accurate historical record I thought all we had were knickers with stockings, and shoes and hats with enormous silver buckles.


Well, apparently you misunderestimate the importance of introducing 17th century european style homosexuality to the americas.
 
2008-11-25 09:47:35 PM  

zamboni: Red Shirt Blues: Tiberius Gracchus: zamboni: Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.

Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.

We also gave them pants.

Really? According to the most accurate historical record I thought all we had were knickers with stockings, and shoes and hats with enormous silver buckles.

Well, apparently you misunderestimate the importance of introducing 17th century european style homosexuality to the americas.


So the blunderbusses that TG mentioned above. They would be symbols for ...............?????
 
2008-11-25 09:54:08 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: zamboni: Red Shirt Blues: Tiberius Gracchus: zamboni: Red Shirt Blues:
No, not TMI. Interesting. So you are saying the Euro's had better immune systems since they put up with more attacks in the past vs what the natives had to endure. Kind of like when Homer Simpson turned a toaster into a time machine, went back in time and sneezed on a dinosaur causing a chain reaction which led to extinction.

Blink,Blink... um, err, Yeah! That's what I'm saying. Makes some sense though. Europeans lived... the ones who did live... through some of the crappiest... disease ridden... close quartered times in history. In contrast the native americans lived in the open, enjoyed clear air, sunshine, clean water, exercise, healthy plant matter, lean meat... glad we could fix all that for them... the godless savages.

We also gave them pants.

Really? According to the most accurate historical record I thought all we had were knickers with stockings, and shoes and hats with enormous silver buckles.

Well, apparently you misunderestimate the importance of introducing 17th century european style homosexuality to the americas.

So the blunderbusses that TG mentioned above. They would be symbols for ...............?????


Oh, and I'm sure that you expect me to say "penises"... "penii"... "penae"... whatever... even "big hard throbbing penises" ejecting their hot payload of civilization upon the continent... and you would be right.
 
2008-11-25 09:54:18 PM  
My boomstick?
 
2008-11-25 09:59:25 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: You should read up on the Mississippians, Hopewell, Adena, Hohokam, Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloan, or the Pacific Northwest. We've got agriculture, urban centers, canals (that are still in use today), construction unrivaled in size and scale until the end of the 19th century.


Yep, they rivalled the town of Jarmo in the Zagros mountains that was built in the 4th millenium B.C.E., and weren't anywhere even close to what was built in the Indus valley in the 3rd millenium B.C.E.
Big deal. When the Pilgrims (people so uptight and unpleasant that they got kicked out of England, and the Dutch didn't want them either) got to Plymouth, the Native Americans were suspicious but welcoming. The dirty tricks on both sides started later. Not much later, but later.
And yes, there was plenty of blame on both sides. The European colonizers were just more successful.

By the way, the Hopewell, Mississippians, Hohokam, and Anasazi were all either completely gone, or vague remnants of themselves by the time Europeans first got here.
 
2008-11-25 10:13:21 PM  

give me doughnuts: Tiberius Gracchus: You should read up on the Mississippians, Hopewell, Adena, Hohokam, Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloan, or the Pacific Northwest. We've got agriculture, urban centers, canals (that are still in use today), construction unrivaled in size and scale until the end of the 19th century.

Yep, they rivalled the town of Jarmo in the Zagros mountains that was built in the 4th millenium B.C.E., and weren't anywhere even close to what was built in the Indus valley in the 3rd millenium B.C.E.
Big deal. When the Pilgrims (people so uptight and unpleasant that they got kicked out of England, and the Dutch didn't want them either) got to Plymouth, the Native Americans were suspicious but welcoming. The dirty tricks on both sides started later. Not much later, but later.
And yes, there was plenty of blame on both sides. The European colonizers were just more successful.

By the way, the Hopewell, Mississippians, Hohokam, and Anasazi were all either completely gone, or vague remnants of themselves by the time Europeans first got here.


So were the Harrappans and Sumerians, your point?

/Hohokam still were kicking, Mississippians were very much thriving (just not at Cahokia, had moved south and east). The Natchez sent the Spanish packing in the Mississippi as well as other unnamed Mississippians who gave DoSoto more than he bargained for in the SE. Unfortunately due to disease and the relatively late arrival of ethnographers into the region we don't have their names. Ft. Ancient was kicking in Ohio right up until contact along the coasts (ethnographies don't exist here until after the Beaver Wars due to the Ohio Vally being a unique geographic region making it impossible to explore earlier), Oneota as well in Wisconsin (documented as Winnebego, now Ho-Chunk), to say nothing of the Mandan, and the Pacific Northwestern groups whose villages reminded European explorers of the villages in Europe they had left behind. Oh and of course the Aztecs (we didn't kick Mexico out of North America yet have we?)

//And Spain is still part of Europe..."dirty tricks" began 90 years before....
 
2008-11-25 10:15:15 PM  
Michelle Raheja, another idiot for the books.
 
2008-11-25 10:48:03 PM  

Red Shirt Blues: Tiberius Gracchus: Red Shirt Blues:
Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.

Syphilis for one. I think some other STD's but that's the biggie. Over the last 400 years it has killed millions of Europeans, and used to be quite the epidemic. Certainly not the same as the 95% killed off by disease here in the Americas, but not too shabby as far as infectious disease goes.

OgreMagi: Red Shirt Blues: OgreMagi: sloppy shoes: Wasn't the spreading of smallpox intentionally an isolated incident?

The one authenticated case of smallpox infected blankets may have been a mistake, not an intent to infect the indians. From what I remember reading, the commanding officer may not have known the blankets had come from plague victims.

Even if it was intentional, it hardly mattered in the bigger picture. Normal progression of disease swept through the indian populations since they had no natural immunities to the diseases brought over by the europeans.


/yes, I said indians.

Were there any diseases that they were immune to and gave the Europeans? Just morbid curiousity.

They weren't immune, but as a nice gesture, the indians gave the europeans syphlis.

Well there's some big time karama for you.


The thing that people forget is that the reasons Europeans (Eurasians, really) had some immunity to smallpox etc. while Indians had death rates of 80-90%, is that only the 10-20% of Eurasians with some immunity survived when the diseases first appeared. Both populations were decimated, it just happened to the Indians in recorded history.

Also, I've read publications that claim being infected with syphilis at a young age via a skin cut or something similar (a condition called yaws, universal in the Americas) makes you immune to the clap as an adult. Try getting funding from NIH to test that hypothesis.... Analysis of skeletons indicates that some adult Indians likely had syphilis but it was uncommon. Eurasians, of course, had no immunity whatsoever.
 
2008-11-25 11:06:26 PM  

Merry Sunshine: Not this again... didn't we just do this yesterday?

/summon whidbey


Yes. Yes we did.

/late to the party
//as usual
 
2008-11-25 11:25:49 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: So were the Harrappans and Sumerians, your point?


My point is that you seem to be falling into the "Noble Savage" "Peaceful peoples at one with the Earth" New Age with a dash of Rousseau bullshiat picture of the Native Americans. That, and you seem to be painting the Europeans as slavering blood-thirsty wretches who destroyed these utopian societies out of pure spite.

Both sides were human. Therefore both sides were noble, savage, altruistic, greedy, accomodating, vicious, kind-hearted, assholes. The "whitewashing" goes both ways.


And where are the wringing hands and tear-stained faces for the peoples of eastern Europe and western Asia who were nearly wiped out by the ravening hordes of Mongols?

Where is the United Saxon College Fund?

Where is the Iceni Reservation (complete with casino)?

These may have been a little further back in history, but weren't they just as bad?
 
2008-11-26 12:23:33 AM  
Wow. Late to the game, but I came here to say:

If you read fark long enough, eventually a story involving mass idiocy at the junior high school you attended will float by.

/Only took 7 years.
 
2008-11-26 12:24:10 AM  
and damn that Santa Clause. We tell our little snowflakes he'll give them presents if they behave, then they get a lousy sweater. Talk about revisionist history.
 
2008-11-26 12:29:13 AM  

give me doughnuts: Tiberius Gracchus: So were the Harrappans and Sumerians, your point?

My point is that you seem to be falling into the "Noble Savage" "Peaceful peoples at one with the Earth" New Age with a dash of Rousseau bullshiat picture of the Native Americans. That, and you seem to be painting the Europeans as slavering blood-thirsty wretches who destroyed these utopian societies out of pure spite.

Both sides were human. Therefore both sides were noble, savage, altruistic, greedy, accomodating, vicious, kind-hearted, assholes. The "whitewashing" goes both ways.


And where are the wringing hands and tear-stained faces for the peoples of eastern Europe and western Asia who were nearly wiped out by the ravening hordes of Mongols?

Where is the United Saxon College Fund?

Where is the Iceni Reservation (complete with casino)?

These may have been a little further back in history, but weren't they just as bad?


At what point did I ever suggest that they were overly peaceful? I'm scouring my own comments and never once did I suggest any utopia, peace, or uber society. Native Americans fought all the time, in fact their wars were more brutal than our own. Studies of the Upper Mississippians suggest a 5% annual death rate through violence...think about that. That is STAGGERING. If we applied that to the United States that would be 15 million people a year being killed in war or other violent ways. You know, the Natives were scalping before French contact, it's preserved in the record.

I also didn't suggest anything about harmony with nature. The decline of the Chaco phenomenon was undoubtedly related to over exploitation of their environment, they denuded the landscape and could no longer sustain their agricultural lifestyle. Likely the same fate is what caused the decline of Cahokia as a cultural center and shifted the focus to other regions of the Mississippian world.

Instead what I'm suggesting is that they weren't sitting around being naked savages eagerly awaiting the arrival of white man and some preconceived notion of civilization. They had their own civilizations, cultures, and displayed far more complexity than "just existing." Likewise it's pretty undeniable that the Europeans didn't arrive at an empty land and the indigenous people didn't just get up and leave.

Was it spite? Of course not. Many of the Europeans thought they were doing the world a favor by removing the barbarians, fulfilling their destiny, doing God's will, and so on.

Were there examples of goodwill? Certainly, most notably the French (unlike their relations later in history like in Algeria). However, that side of the story is more than represented in our mythology.

This entire discussion is about bringing the overwhelming majority of interactions into the mythology. Montezuma didn't kill Cortes's mother and spark the conflict...DeSoto wasn't baited into his foray, and the graves looted by the Pilgrims didn't open themselves up and dump their contents at the gates of Jamestown.

If there's an article discussing the Mongolian invasion and I find that it talks about the Manifest Destiny of the Mongolians (and their righteous duty to tame the Europeans...or kill them) and doesn't mention any Slavs caught in the crossfire, certainly I'll air my disappointment there...why I'd bring it up here I'm not sure.

And yes, invasions are bad (I'm looking again for where I said that it was okay so long as the victims are white). I really don't want to get into a "we're more oppressed" discussion, as it really does disservice to all parties involved. The Iceni and Saxons did get a pretty rough deal...but I don't think 95% of their population was killed. In fact they pretty much remained the base population that adapted (at force yes) to the new cultures and groups that arrived. If you can't see the difference there...well you're being intellectually dishonest. And there ARE Celtic culture revival moments...Gaelic is experiencing resurgence (along with Welsh to add another group). The Greek Gods have a small revival occurring in Greece (and that's just a cultural conquest, not a physical one).

Like I said before, it costs us nothing to tell the whole truth...so why not do it? Is our (false) pride worth lying for? Worth denying the actions that our (collective, not necessarily actual) ancestors took?

At the end of the day I am glad that I live in the US. I feel it's the greatest country in the world, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. However, that doesn't mean that as an American there aren't parts of our history I'm ashamed of and wish could have turned out differently. That shame shouldn't result in my refusal to talk about it, and create a wholly false mythology to cover it. The treatment of the Native Americans is THE greatest sin on my country's soul (even as terrible as slavery was I feel that the near extermination of an entire continent is worse).
 
2008-11-26 12:30:42 AM  
Did I say junior high? Meant elementary. Distracted, just was remembering some boobs I saw in junior high.

/good ol school daze
 
2008-11-26 01:34:02 AM  

Tiberius Gracchus: Other1:
My problem is not with the tradition, a day to give thanks for the harvest/fruitful year, be with family and yes acknowledge the journey that got us here. However, we don't need to shove our fingers in our ears and scream NONONONONO at the prospect of incorporating some more fact into our mythology. I have no problem with hurting people's feelings...who doesn't love a good racist joke? The issue is the purpose behind it...if it's for entertainment, laughter, etc. of course you should get over it, no one takes "Tropic Thunder" seriously. However, many people only learn as much as schools teach them, we should make that education accurate, right? There's no purpose behind continuing this offense (unlike a joke where laughter is the purpose). You don't gain anything by painting the Pilgrims as saints, nor do you lose anything by portraying them as flawed. If you can prevent the "hurting" of other people at NO COST to yourself (no entertainment loss, no financial loss, no effort lost (you aren't the teacher)) why not do it?


You know what... you're right. We should teach our children the facts as accurately as we know them. I suppose im reacting in a less than intellectually honest way to the P.C. side of this...its th whole "Im offended by X, how dare you, im going to the courts to see it stopped." kind of behavior that i perceive as a growing trend and it bothers the shiat out of me.

Its difficult to phrase it without sounding like a moron, but its late here... so here goes: "leave my farking holidays alone. if you don't like it, home school your kid or something, we've all got shiat to deal with, if it offends you then too farking bad for you." I don't want to stick my fingers in my ears...the facts deserve to be heard, i just don't think we should have to accommodate every pissy biatch who doesn't like the status quo.

/disjointed idiotic rant off.
 
2008-11-26 10:07:48 AM  
steadydietoffilm.typepad.com

/hotlinked
//gobble gobble
 
2008-11-26 02:01:59 PM  
ONE parent with a political axe to grind complains and it turns into this?

"The white man" stealing the land from the Indians is a scenario that has been played out a thousand times in history. In fact, in many places it is still being played out. Humans are territorial and greedy. It's biological. It's a simple fact that when a civilization takes over another's land they either assimilate that culture or destroy it. Not saying it's right but that's the way it goes. One would like to believe we are beyond that now. But you can't change history. Does that mean though that we are condemned to keep apologising for it for centuries?

When colonization began my ancestors were busy being raped and plundered by the English. Do I hate the English for it? No. Because anyone who was personnaly involved in any of that is long dead. What ever happened to not visiting the sins of the father on the son's?
 
2008-11-26 02:34:00 PM  
The Injins zerv what they gets for introducing their evil tobaca to the woild.

Francis.
 
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