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(CNN)   UAW to Congress: Get a deal done. Taxpayers to UAW: Eat a dick   (money.cnn.com) divider line 822
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26868 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Nov 2008 at 2:17 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-11-20 04:29:26 PM
Insurance_EE_guy: tchamber: what will happen if the US auto industry is allowed to collapse, do you?

Um yeah. Goodbye plug in hybrid. Hello Depression. If congress doesn't bail these guys out I'll be pissed. I'm on the waiting list for the volt.


Me too.
 
2008-11-20 04:29:26 PM
cchris_39: HeartBurnKid: You know, you might as well just say, "I'm an idiot with nothing of value to add to this or any other conversation." You just outed yourself there.


No, I'm pointing out that your messiah and his party are all about consolidating their power and advancing their leftist agenda.

There WILL be a bailout, maybe even partial nationalization, and the UAW will not suffer one biatchange!


OBAMA IS NOT IN OFFICE YET

Maybe that will now sink into your head.

This is happening on BUSH's watch. If this is still an issue when he leaves, then it's because HE didn't do shiat about it.
 
2008-11-20 04:29:36 PM
MLWS: Ontario (where I live) has a huge manufacturing base to supply the auto industry located here.

Let the big three fall, Canada can buy up the factories here, and we can make a Canadian car (perhaps shaped like a hockey puck) that runs on maple syrup, back bacon (Canadian bacon to Americans), roadkill, and beavers.


you forgot poutine
 
2008-11-20 04:30:14 PM
asdfbeau: Welcome to 2008, the IT industry dealt with outsourcing & globalization years ago.

Seriously... maybe a benefit on his part, but he's obviously never had to call HP or Dell tech support.

/sorry, Mr. Indian Guy calling me back at 11pm
//I know your name is not 'Bill'
///I can smell the curry through the phone
 
2008-11-20 04:30:42 PM
itazurakko: Serious question though, uber long term, when 5% of the people in the world can do all of the work (due to mechanization, etc), how do we allocate resources?

Likely serious solution, military conquest and occupation. What do you think started the second world war? Or do you think that the German and Japanese people were just bad? Nope. A few rough years and an angry population that still thinks it is entitled will put someone in power that will make them entitled. Probably the hard way.
 
2008-11-20 04:31:02 PM
Degree Absolute: scanman61: floor9: Insurance_EE_guy: Yes the Tesla is nice from Silicon Valley. They've made 6. Congrats.

GM has made zero.

Ever heard of the EV-1?

Sure, they are all gone now, but GM built more electric cars than Tesla will probably build in the next ten years.

Here is a thought: Why not just bring back the EV-1? It was relatively cheap (compared to the Volt), it worked


If GM had sold the EV-1 outright rather than leased it as a research project, the vehicle would have cost over $90 000. It weighed nearly 4000 lbs, only sat 2, had a 70 mile range before needing a tow home, and could only be charged from a specially installed charging station. The Volt will be around $40 000, seats 4, can be charged from any wall socket, and can go 40 miles in pure EV mode then indefinitely under range extender mode as long as gas stations are available.
 
2008-11-20 04:31:06 PM
Open_Mouth_Inert_Foot:
so, if you get pissed off, either jabbing someone with a needle, or taking the subaru up to the nearest tower, and all that


Tower thing has been done here in Austin.

Hey - I have a question, relative to cars and that industry. Would it be possible to force at least one freaking auto mechanic to be open past 5pm, and on a weekend day?

Also, how about making them charge reasonable amounts to fix your car, instead of having us poor suckers pay $2000 just to have the mechanic say, "well, we replaced the part, but that wasn't the problem. The (insert term here) fix'll cost you another $5k. Without it, your car won't run long enough to get home."

I'm not very sympathetic to rip-off artists who finally have to pay up.
 
2008-11-20 04:31:41 PM
MLWS: Ontario (where I live) has a huge manufacturing base to supply the auto industry located here.

Let the big three fall, Canada can buy up the factories here, and we can make a Canadian car (perhaps shaped like a hockey puck) that runs on maple syrup, back bacon (Canadian bacon to Americans), roadkill, and beavers.


Make it a car based upon the design and features of the Arrow delta-wing interceptor aircraft
 
2008-11-20 04:32:37 PM
HeartBurnKid: Who the hell wants a free market? I want a well-regulated market, and these guys have lobbied heavily against every regulation that could have pushed them in a greener direction while making cars like it's 1989. They did themselves in, so fark them.

Also this.

Makes me wonder if the regret now lobbying against the CAFE standards so hard, now that gas went up to $4+ a gallon and demand for the huge SUVs fell off.

Supposedly some of the demand has crept back but no one I know is willing to trust that gas won't rise again, and they've gotten used to driving less.
 
2008-11-20 04:33:07 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: Jeffrey.Rodriguez: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

I won't panicoontil the Dow Jones equals the amount of my checking account.


I love when a typo and the fark censors converge in unintended ways
 
2008-11-20 04:33:50 PM
The Black Spy: Any of you own stock in any of these 3 companies? Perhaps in a mutual fund even?

If so, you will lose your stock share money if the company goes into bankruptcy, which they will do if they don't get the loan.

They don't get the loan = YOU lose.


How frikken short-sighted! Yes, I bought around 300 shares of Ford a couple of years ago and I am kicking myself just as much as anyone right now. That said, I DO NOT want to see this bailout. For these companies to actaully become sucessful, they need to figure out the labor situation and completely rethink where they are going. Dumping money into these companies DOES NOT encourage this type of behavior and only premotes the status quo.

So while I may never see my money back, it is a small price to pay to see these companies, their empoyees and all of the supporting buisness make it through these times with a SUCESSFUL buisness plan.
 
2008-11-20 04:33:57 PM
Witchydiva: Open_Mouth_Inert_Foot:
so, if you get pissed off, either jabbing someone with a needle, or taking the subaru up to the nearest tower, and all that

Tower thing has been done here in Austin.

being a houstonian, i know
Hey - I have a question, relative to cars and that industry. Would it be possible to force at least one freaking auto mechanic to be open past 5pm, and on a weekend day?

Also, how about making them charge reasonable amounts to fix your car, instead of having us poor suckers pay $2000 just to have the mechanic say, "well, we replaced the part, but that wasn't the problem. The (insert term here) fix'll cost you another $5k. Without it, your car won't run long enough to get home."

I'm not very sympathetic to rip-off artists who finally have to pay up.


eh, darn near impossible, half the problem i've found, is there are so many chain repair shops now, it can be good, and then suddenly they have a new manager, and you can't trust them

i did find a decent shop near my house, but that was luck
 
2008-11-20 04:34:36 PM
HeartBurnKid:

You're missing the point. They are not working on what's best for the company or economy. They are working on a government power grab.
 
2008-11-20 04:34:39 PM
Fark the unions, the downfall of America. Though I don't see that happening with the socialist that just got elected by the least informed electorate of my lifetime. http://howobamagotelected.com/ Makes me feel sick! Though by the definition, I'd say that most Obamaniacs are anything but "qualified" to vote. What we have now is an "Obamanation". Good luck having your wealth redistributed.
 
2008-11-20 04:36:33 PM
Latest headline:

Democratic leaders say they will return week of Dec. 8 if companies can show they have a 'viable' turnaround plan.
(new window)

Cool.

"It is all about accountability and viability," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "We [need to] see a plan where the auto industry is held accountable. Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money."

The hell?!? She's doing something I agree with? Something is wrong... maybe they should get the money.
 
2008-11-20 04:36:53 PM
UAW Leader: No More Concessions
Labor Leader Says Workers Have Sacrificed Enough

POSTED: 4:18 pm PST November 15, 2008


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said workers will not make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

Gettelfinger also is calling on Congress to act quickly on a bailout plan for the auto industry. He said something needs to be done before President-elect Barack Obama takes office in January.

Gettelfinger said it is unfair to ask workers for more sacrifices, noting that previous cuts workers have agreed to have helped steady the automakers.
 
2008-11-20 04:37:15 PM
Having worked in a unionized company that failed, I can say there is alot of Mickey Mouse BS that goes on that basically makes management a toothless lion.

Whenever a worker was reprimanded by management, the union steward would bark at management despite the worker being in the wrong. Union workers that were fired were usually rehired by the end of the week. There were arguments over which worker had the most seniority to operate a forklift while the customer waited in the parking lot for over an hour for someone to make a decision. A non-union employee was not allowed to operate machinery...causing production to halt when a union member wasn't around. It was utter chaos and I'm glad that company filed chapter 11.

If this is similar to what goes on with UAW and the Big 3, let them fail.
 
2008-11-20 04:37:16 PM
MrKraclenutz: tchamber: Economy to taxpayers: Have a nice depression, then.

You free-market shills need to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late.

Maybe a depression is just what this country needs?

We're soft. We can't compete in a global market. We think everything is owed to us. Maybe we need a kick in the balls to wake 75% of this country up.


^^ THIS ^^

Too many whining bastards complaining about how it costs so much to fill up their SUV, upset because they can;t afford "organic" produce anymore, and complain because they are too fat.

Listen my fellow Americans: you live better than 99.99% of the world. Why don't you just shut the fark up and start taking responsibility for the problems you helped create.

A long hard depression is just what this country needs to get back on track. At end of it we will be better for it.
 
2008-11-20 04:37:35 PM
I think hidden in all these arguments and rhetorics people seemed to have forgotten a little key element of the entire discussion...

It's not that GM is too big to fail.. they ALLREADY failed!!! Why are people not realizing this?

This is not like someone just found out they have to go for a neuro surgery and filed for bunkrupty because of medical bail..
this is more akin to an AIDS patient who also had stage 3 pancreatic cancer and just nailed with the Ebola virus.
 
2008-11-20 04:38:22 PM
RoxtarRyan: Latest headline:

Democratic leaders say they will return week of Dec. 8 if companies can show they have a 'viable' turnaround plan. (new window)

Cool.

"It is all about accountability and viability," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "We [need to] see a plan where the auto industry is held accountable. Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money."

The hell?!? She's doing something I agree with? Something is wrong... maybe they should get the money.


yea, it's like, what happened to our regular crazy nancy pelosi
 
2008-11-20 04:38:29 PM
RoxtarRyan: Latest headline:

Democratic leaders say they will return week of Dec. 8 if companies can show they have a 'viable' turnaround plan. (new window)

Cool.

"It is all about accountability and viability," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "We [need to] see a plan where the auto industry is held accountable. Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money."

The hell?!? She's doing something I agree with? Something is wrong... maybe they should get the money.


Wow. When does the taxpayer get a plan like that from Pelosi and Reid?
 
2008-11-20 04:39:09 PM
jbc: tchamber: You guys really have absolutely no understanding of what will happen if the US auto industry is allowed to collapse, do you?

You really have no idea that every single member of the UAW is grossly overpaid, do you? If they're that concerned, they need to start more time making serious wage concessions, and less time telling us what we need to do.


I say just pay the executives the union scale.

Problem mostly solved.
 
2008-11-20 04:39:21 PM
tchamber: Economy to taxpayers: Have a nice depression, then.

You free-market shills need to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late.


I hate to say it, but we are mere humans in a very large and complex universe. I hate to go all 'new age' on many of you, but the universe is cyclical, not linear. Nothing natural progresses in a constant line. There are small cycles, and large cycles. Most of the time they are resonances of eachother.

The United States is a country founded on representative democracy and capitalism. The combination of these principles go through a cycle of their own and this cycle allows great growth until greed kills the system and it crumbles for rebirth. If you step back - away from our little 60 to 80 year lifespans - you will see that Capitalism had advanced western civilization greatly. The problem is that its time is due, and we can either accept the next phase of the cycle or fight it.

If we accept it, we must identify the stages and learn to live within that construct. It does not necessarily mean poverty and despair if we can let go of individual greed. If we fight the cycle and try to maintain these primitive (yet instinctual) impulses to compete for resources, we lose our shirts as a whole and step back a few hundred years. It is man's arrogance that makes him think he can control the natural order and it is his ignorance of that order which feeds his arrogance.

Let it fall. But don't let it collapse on us, ruining what we have built! We are highly intelligent beings, and we should be able to identify that this is part of the phase and we should be able to construct a framework which will allow this era to close, and a new, greater era to begin.

Wake. Up.
img520.imageshack.us
 
2008-11-20 04:39:50 PM
naris: floor9: GM has made zero.

WRONG! GM Made over 2000 --> GM EV1 (new window)


Yes and they lost their arses on them. But hey its ok to loose money and what not as long as its good for the planet.

Its gotta make business sense and even at $4 a gallon gas is cheap compared to electric vehicles.
 
2008-11-20 04:40:16 PM
Obviously:
"It is all about accountability and viability," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "We [need to] see a plan where the auto industry is held accountable. Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money."

The hell?!? She's doing something I agree with? Something is wrong... maybe they should get the money.

Wow. When does the taxpayer get a plan like that from Pelosi and Reid?


They apparently forgot to take their crazy pills this morning. WTF?
 
2008-11-20 04:40:22 PM
basehitter10: 1. One guy would come in every morning and make 20 or so copies of that day's crossword from the local newspaper, pass them out, and there would be a contest to see who would get it done first. During supposed working hours.

That one doesn't strike me as so terrible, if it's a physical job. You CAN do both at the same time. If you're good, you don't need to write the words in the puzzle constantly, you can keep it in your head.

I had a job as a dishwasher, I would put the crossword (NY Times) in a plastic folder and do it with greasepaint, there was MORE than enough time to do the puzzle and the job. The machine only goes so fast, and when it wasn't lunch rush, the pace was decent. Heck, we listened to the radio and talked all day too.

That's the thing with non-thinking jobs, you're free to do other stuff with your mind in the meantime. In some ways, it's nice.

Building planes is probably more complex so surely YMMV, but there's a lot of things you can do on really mindless gigs.
 
2008-11-20 04:40:33 PM
i have to poop.
 
2008-11-20 04:42:09 PM
RoxtarRyan: Latest headline:

Democratic leaders say they will return week of Dec. 8 if companies can show they have a 'viable' turnaround plan. (new window)

Cool.

"It is all about accountability and viability," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "We [need to] see a plan where the auto industry is held accountable. Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money."

The hell?!? She's doing something I agree with? Something is wrong... maybe they should get the money.


Congress is going to evaluate a business plan? And Helen Keller will be grading their handwriting I assume. farkin' joke.

It's more like, pretend to give a shiat and work hard, so we can give you the money we plan to give you anyway, so that the union voters will stay dumb and keep voting for us.
 
2008-11-20 04:42:13 PM
tchamber: Economy to taxpayers: Have a nice depression, then.

You free-market shills need to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late.


From an article on Bloomberg:
"GM said Nov. 7 it may run short of the $11 billion minimum cash it needs to pay its bills each month by the end of this year..."

If we give the Big 3 $25 billion, GM gets $8.333 billion. That isn't enough to pay their bills for a month. What the fark do you propose to do then, eh? What magic can happen in less than a month? When you give us a proposal that explains how you'll turn the Big 3 around in 22.5 days, we'll give you the money.
 
2008-11-20 04:42:22 PM
loonatic112358: yea, it's like, what happened to our regular crazy nancy pelosi

Our Golden Girl has all growns up...
www.accessatlanta.com

/cause ya growns up and ya growns up and ya growns up
//
 
2008-11-20 04:43:03 PM
Interesting (new window)
 
2008-11-20 04:43:35 PM
I would accept the bailout if all 3 agreed to only produce vehicles that met a sliding mileage rating starting at 30mpg and increasing 1% each year forever.
 
2008-11-20 04:44:22 PM
squidloe: Oldiron_79: I say let them crash (UAW and big 3 both)

They knew what they were getting into.


Agreed. Last time I checked, there were several auto manufacturers who were still successful and capable of building an automobile worth the price tag (Toyota, Honda and Mazda as the "New Big 3").
 
2008-11-20 04:44:29 PM
Drakuun: PascalsGhost:
If you can't get a job in IT with 12 years experience, you have far greater problems than unions, the economy, ect.

Yeah, because with over 450,000 lost jobs in the past 8 years Michigan has a lot of opportunities when every industry in the state is contracting. I don't have a job because THERE ARE NO JOBS or there are tens of thousands of people for one opening.

What do you know anyways? You live here? Probably not. You live in a state where 98% of it's industries are auto related? No, Then kindly STFU about what I'm facing and why. You people don't think it's bad because YOU'RE NOT HERE, YOU'RE NOT DIRECTLY EFFECTED ALREADY.


Then perhaps you need to pull your head out of your anus and start looking for work in the IT field outside of your home town or home state. If things are that bad, stop biatching and whining, grow a pair, and move to where jobs are available. For Fark's Sake, there are THOUSANDS of IT jobs out there. I just went from one job to another last week without a problem and I only have 10 years of IT experience.
 
2008-11-20 04:44:42 PM
chasd00: I would accept the bailout if all 3 agreed to only produce vehicles that met a sliding mileage rating starting at 30mpg and increasing 1% each year forever.

scratch that, i stand by my earlier post.
 
2008-11-20 04:46:26 PM
I much prefer "Suck a wet bag of dicks"
 
2008-11-20 04:47:22 PM
kobesguilty: UAW Leader: No More Concessions
Labor Leader Says Workers Have Sacrificed Enough

POSTED: 4:18 pm PST November 15, 2008


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said workers will not make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

Gettelfinger also is calling on Congress to act quickly on a bailout plan for the auto industry. He said something needs to be done before President-elect Barack Obama takes office in January.

Gettelfinger said it is unfair to ask workers for more sacrifices, noting that previous cuts workers have agreed to have helped steady the automakers.


at the risk of sounded snarky, exactly what have they sacrificed?
 
2008-11-20 04:48:55 PM
Preston Preston: According to this article, it does work out in the environment's favor if you drive the electric vehicle. You make about 6 times less CO2.

Now what does NEV stand for? Right. Golf cart. Hardly fair to compare a 15 mph not-road-legal golf cart and a 100 mph road-legal sedan, don't you think?

The thermodynamics is roughly this. To put 100 (or any amount) hp for an hour at the shaft of an internal combustion engine in an automobile requires 3/4 of the chemical energy (and also makes 3/4 of the CO2) as delivering 100 (or an equal amount) hp for an hour at the shaft of a plug-in electric car.

So, to answer your question, yes, a lot of 35% efficient engines are more efficient than taking the power from a single 40% efficient plant, transmitting 93% of that to a car battery, getting 66% of what's left back out of the battery, and getting 90% of that as power from the motor.

As far as scrubbers and precipitators and so on go, none of them capture CO2. They capture fly ash and reduce sulfur oxides. The fly ash is full of heavy metals and radioactvity; it has to be hauled away as hazardous material. If the electricity were cheap, plentiful, and green, then heating homes and powering cars with electricity would make sense. Otherwise, it is only attractive politically.

An easy way to accomplish this in perpetuity would be to start building nuclear plants. The US has a generating capacity of about 1 TW. About 2% of that is replaced each year. Demand grows by 4% each year. To double output in 36 years would require another 2%. That's 80 each 1 GW powerplants, 60 of which would be built with private funds in any case.

Is it possible that the government could offer incentives to make nuclear (because there's no way you are going to be able to build that capacity in solar or wind power, the real estate involved makes it way too expensive, not counting the equipment) more attractive than coal for the private investment that will occur for those 60 plants? And make building the excess capacity of 20 plants (about 30 billion dollars worth) attractive? I believe so.

I also believe that if 24 of those plants were fast liquid metal reactors, there would be reserves to do this for tens of thousands of years. And building this stuff would provide an excellent way to retrain and usefully employ UAW laborers.
 
2008-11-20 04:49:07 PM
Good News: Domestic Auto Industry is alive and well.

Bad News: Only profitable entities are: Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, Hyundai & others I've forgotten.

The Big Three will survive after outsourcing production and Assembly to low wage (e.g. Asian). They're already doing this with parts suppliers.

GM deserves Congressional ass-reaming and Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. For years, have been losing money on smaller cars. Using hugely profitable SUVs/Trucks to subsidize money losing econoboxes worked until the perfect storm of $4 gas & the credit crunch.

Chrysler sold themselves to the Private Equity devil. Probably will get chopped up and sell off the pieces worth anything to the highest bidder, if they can't find one.

/lives in Suburban Detroit
//within two miles of Ford & Chrysler Plants
///Area already in Depression
////Am lucky Job not tied to Auto Industry
 
2008-11-20 04:49:53 PM
3. One night I worked a 3rd shift as we rolled out a new computer system in the plant. I took my lunch break at 3:00am or so and went to my desk to eat. While eating I heard srange noises coming from a nearby conference room. I stroll over to check it out and witness Mr. and Ms. Union havin at it on the conference table. (She was NOT attractive). This was actually pretty funny..

Bah. That happens plenty of times in more professional, non-union offices, and it's usually a lot more titillating there.
 
2008-11-20 04:50:24 PM
RoxtarRyan: Latest headline:

Democratic leaders say they will return week of Dec. 8 if companies can show they have a 'viable' turnaround plan. (new window)

Cool.

"It is all about accountability and viability," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "We [need to] see a plan where the auto industry is held accountable. Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money."


Christ on a cracker - where was this mindset in Congress during the banking industry's $700Bil bailout 'debate'?

/better late than never, I guess
//still against both bailouts
 
2008-11-20 04:50:34 PM
HeartBurnKid: cchris_39: HeartBurnKid: You know, you might as well just say, "I'm an idiot with nothing of value to add to this or any other conversation." You just outed yourself there.


No, I'm pointing out that your messiah and his party are all about consolidating their power and advancing their leftist agenda.

There WILL be a bailout, maybe even partial nationalization, and the UAW will not suffer one biatchange!

OBAMA IS NOT IN OFFICE YET

Maybe that will now sink into your head.

This is happening on BUSH's watch. If this is still an issue when he leaves, then it's because HE didn't do shiat about it.


It may be under Bush's watch, but it's a democratic controlled Congress and nothing has been presented to Bush for his signature ... yet.

I expect Bush to pussy out on this just like he did with the mortgage bail-out-a-bunch-of-rich-farkers-so-they-can-keep-their-yachts fiasco.
 
2008-11-20 04:51:48 PM
tchamber: You guys really have absolutely no understanding of what will happen if the US auto industry is allowed to collapse, do you?

No they certainly do not.

/neither do you
//or I
 
2008-11-20 04:51:53 PM
sawut: i have to poop.

Are you a member of the UAW? If so, you can get a 30% bonus to your salary for not getting any on the floor.
 
2008-11-20 04:52:13 PM
jjorsett: I'm tired of the UAW biatching about how stupid/corrupt/incompetent the auto execs are. I propose the US government buy the big 3 for $7 billion or so, then hand the companies over to the UAW to own and run. No bailout. Lots cheaper and carries with it a nice STFU factor too.

/Your newsletter
//Let me subscribe to it
 
2008-11-20 04:52:21 PM
Malbar: doofusgumby: fail. UAW workers at NUUMI make toyotas.

It's NUMMI, not NUUMI....

Fail.


upload.wikimedia.org

Nononono, its NUUUNI, silly!

/hotlinking? in my intarwebs? Its more likely than you think.
 
MIU
2008-11-20 04:52:32 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: Don't college faculty have collective bargaining and union-like protections and concessions?

With all due respect, I am certain you can find a union-like organization and a corresponding profession that will not offend your bigotry against the less well-educated.


I had to join a union when I was a grad student. It was a big, mind-boggling pile of stupid. I was so glad to get back into non-unionized industry after graduation.

I don't have any ideological objections to unions per se, but I don't understand why anyone thinks its a good idea to reward and protect incompetence when the much more effective competition does not. Comparing a Toyota factory to a Chrysler or GM one is a pretty stark reminder of that.
 
2008-11-20 04:52:45 PM
Did anyone catch the PBS Frontline show HEAT? It really shed a lot of light on Detroit's behavior.

There's great hilarity when GM demos their Volt "mule".

Link to video. View Chapter 7 around the 6 minute mark. (Sorry no pops)
 
2008-11-20 04:53:00 PM
zippyZRX: Its gotta make business sense and even at $4 a gallon gas is cheap compared to electric vehicles.

Electric vehicles are actually much cheaper to build and maintain than internal combustion. There is no scale to electric vehicles right now (Tesla making 6 vehicles). It is just a cheap electric motor and a battery pack. No transmission and none of the complexities of an IC engine. Maintenance is a breeze (and probably why car makers don't like them, they can't make thousands after the sale). They should also invalidate all the battery patents that are currently owned and not put into use. Watch "Who killed the Electric Car" and get back to me.
 
2008-11-20 04:53:02 PM
nmemkha: Listen my fellow Americans: you live better than 99.99% of the world. Why don't you just shut the fark up and start taking responsibility for the problems you helped create.

Perhaps you've forgotten that the workers' rights laws in this country, which guarantee things like minimum wage and a right to complain, are the very same reason that so many jobs are being performed overseas.

In other words: the "problems we helped create" aren't actually problems, they're solutions that other countries haven't mandated yet.
 
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