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(New York Daily News)   Mussina to retire. Loggins devastated   (nydailynews.com) divider line
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556 clicks; posted to Sports » on 20 Nov 2008 at 5:21 AM (10 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-11-19 11:45:58 PM  
Moose was a great guy; on the mound & off.

Being a Stanford guy (both athletic & academic) I heard he was very lonely in baseball, without any intellectual equals with whom to confide
 
2008-11-19 11:55:33 PM  
I wish he had spent his whole career with the Os.
 
2008-11-20 12:49:38 AM  
Ha! Nice.
 
2008-11-20 01:15:01 AM  
bostondirtdogs.boston.comView Full Size
 
2008-11-20 01:20:20 AM  

rocinante721: Moose was a great guy; on the mound & off.


Tell that to Cito Gaston. Gaston was hated by Baltimore fans for years because of Mussina's actions at the 1993 All Star game.

Or how about when Mussina openly criticized the pre-game tribute to long time Jays broadcaster Tom Cheek, who finally succumbed to cancer?

Mussina a nice guy? No.
 
2008-11-20 01:25:14 AM  
 
2008-11-20 01:29:13 AM  

effexca: rocinante721: Moose was a great guy; on the mound & off.

Tell that to Cito Gaston. Gaston was hated by Baltimore fans for years because of Mussina's actions at the 1993 All Star game.

Or how about when Mussina openly criticized the pre-game tribute to long time Jays broadcaster Tom Cheek, who finally succumbed to cancer?

Mussina a nice guy? No.


~~~

Shall I criticize everything you have done in your professional career (which, albeit, was not done under scrutiny of the public)?
 
2008-11-20 01:33:18 AM  
If you say I'm a nice guy when signs indicate otherwise, I'd expect you to call me on my actions.
 
2008-11-20 01:49:26 AM  
Mussina is not a nice guy. He stiffed me on a tip one time. Something about not enough Splenda in his iced tea, or something.
 
2008-11-20 02:03:49 AM  
A+ sir.
 
2008-11-20 06:04:38 AM  

rocinante721: Shall I criticize everything you have done in your professional career (which, albeit, was not done under scrutiny of the public)?


the incident in question: the Jays held a ceremony to honour radio broadcaster Tom Cheek, who had a 4300-and-something-long streak of calling games. he missed a day when his father died. ten days later he was diagnosed with a brain tumour which caused him to miss the eventual ceremony in his honour, and his death shortly after that. said ceremony went fifteen minutes longer than scheduled and Mussina blamed this for his performance, even though he only gave up one run in seven innings before sh*tting the bed and getting the hook.

draw your own conclusions.
 
2008-11-20 07:50:42 AM  

suicide: rocinante721: Shall I criticize everything you have done in your professional career (which, albeit, was not done under scrutiny of the public)?

the incident in question: the Jays held a ceremony to honour radio broadcaster Tom Cheek, who had a 4300-and-something-long streak of calling games. he missed a day when his father died. ten days later he was diagnosed with a brain tumour which caused him to miss the eventual ceremony in his honour, and his death shortly after that. said ceremony went fifteen minutes longer than scheduled and Mussina blamed this for his performance, even though he only gave up one run in seven innings before sh*tting the bed and getting the hook.

draw your own conclusions.


He was sort of whiny and overly sensitive and easy to throw off his game if he didn't have five days between starts. That's what's always been said about him and it fits the description perfectly.

He may have been tactless, but one hell of a pitcher.

And for a regular season game, it sure is difficult to forget the pitcher's duel he and David Cone engaged in at Fenway Park one night a few years back. Moose had two strikes on Carl Everett with two out in the bottom of the ninth and a perfect game on the line and he threw a fastball up figuring that he had thrown the curve in and struck him out last time he'd faced him, so he should try something different. Single to left, Chuck Knoblauch fields. Yankees win anyway, but I think there were two hits total in that game.
 
2008-11-20 07:53:42 AM  
Ah ha! September 2, 2001. (pops)
 
2008-11-20 08:31:04 AM  

effexca: rocinante721: Moose was a great guy; on the mound & off.

Tell that to Cito Gaston. Gaston was hated by Baltimore fans for years because of Mussina's actions at the 1993 All Star game.

Or how about when Mussina openly criticized the pre-game tribute to long time Jays broadcaster Tom Cheek, who finally succumbed to cancer?

Mussina a nice guy? No.fark Cito Gaston. If I was Mussina, I would have done the same thing.

 
2008-11-20 08:32:22 AM  
A "nice guy" does not regularly throw his teammates under the bus. he was a self-centered prick.
 
2008-11-20 08:33:47 AM  
FishyFred: Ah ha! September 2, 2001. (pops)

Friggin' Carl Everett...
 
2008-11-20 08:46:30 AM  
Almost won a Cy Young.
Almost won a World Series.
Almost threw a perfect game.
Almost won 20 games. Dammit.
Almost in the hall of fame.
 
2008-11-20 08:52:49 AM  

FishyFred: one hell of a pitcher.


i can't disagree with that. i'd draw the line at calling him a great guy, though.
 
2008-11-20 08:57:13 AM  

beantowndog: Almost won a Cy Young.
Almost won a World Series.
Almost threw a perfect game.
Almost won 20 games. Dammit.
Almost in the hall of fame.


I defy you to come up with a good argument why Mike Mussina does not belong in the Hall of Fame.
 
2008-11-20 08:59:36 AM  
I heard he could do one hell of a crossword puzzle.

/Bye Boss.
 
2008-11-20 09:12:30 AM  
Mussina is my second player ever, after Don Mattingly. Loved his post-game interviews...there would always be a handful of dry jokes that went over everybody's heads. Plus, whenever Kim Jones asked a particularly inane question, Mussina would pause just long enough to convey his utter contempt for the question. Cracked me up every time.

Two other fun bits from this link: (new window) When SI asked him how he'd feel about having a gay teammate, he responded, "I'm going to make the assumption that I already have." And he hates that douche Michael Kay so much that, according to Kay himself, "I personally don't think Mike Mussina would throw a Dixie cup of water on me if I were on fire."
 
2008-11-20 09:24:05 AM  
I defy you to come up with a good argument why Mike Mussina does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

Besides all the "almosts" listed above. He was never a dominant pitcher. Always good, never great. He definitely makes the starting rotation in the "Hall of Pretty Good" beside Burt Blyvelyn, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, and Tommy John.
 
2008-11-20 09:26:55 AM  
Thanks for throwing the Hittable Curveball, Moose.
 
2008-11-20 09:31:20 AM  

beantowndog: Almost won a Cy Young.


He should have had the 2001 AL Cy Young, but lost out to name recognition and the usual "ZOMG! Wins!" nonsense from people who don't grasp the concept of run support.

Clemens, 2001: 33 starts, 20-3, 220.1 IP, 72 BB, 213 K, 3.51 ERA (ERA+ 128), WHIP 1.26
Mussina, 2001: 34 starts, 17-11, 228.2 IP, 42 BB, 214 K, 3.15 ERA (ERA+ 142), WHIP 1.07

Mussina outpitches Clemens in every way. They're on the same damn team, but Clemens gets freakishly good run support and Mussina gets freakishly bad run support. The production of the offense has nothing to do with Mussina, but he takes the fall since his record is 17-11 and Roger's isn't.

You could make a case for him in a couple of other years, but 2001 is the blatant robbery, and another fine example of why Cy Young voting is stupid.
 
2008-11-20 09:34:40 AM  
I defy you to come up with a good argument why Mike Mussina does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

"The Hall of Fame should be smaller."
 
2008-11-20 09:34:43 AM  

Vogon Poet: Mussina is my second player ever, after Don Mattingly.


Did you accidentally a word there?
 
2008-11-20 09:36:37 AM  

Morlith: Thanks for throwing the Hittable Curveball, Moose.


Only hittable one year.

I will however say thanks for deciding to suck in '07 and not in '08, as opposed to the other way around.
 
2008-11-20 09:36:41 AM  

beantowndog: Almost won a World Series.


And yet more stupid. Mussina's contribution to the 2 Series he played in: 3 starts, 3.00 ERA, 18 IP, 23 K, 5 BB. His team went 0-3, due to poor performances by people who are not named Mike Mussina.

How dare he not also crush homers from the cleanup spot and play good defense at shortstop!
 
2008-11-20 09:37:51 AM  
Another vote for "Hall of Very Good"
 
2008-11-20 09:38:27 AM  
Loggins devastated

But Loggins was quoted as saying, "I'm alright."
 
2008-11-20 09:45:09 AM  

raidersofthelostfark: I defy you to come up with a good argument why Mike Mussina does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

"The Hall of Fame should be smaller."


That's the main case you could make against him. If you operate under the assumption that Mussina needs to be better than a bunch of guys who are already in, he's definitely in. If you operate on the assumption that those guys were mistakes and that the standards should have always been higher (or better-informed), he's borderline.

bark_atda_moon: He was never a dominant pitcher. Always good, never great. He definitely makes the starting rotation in the "Hall of Pretty Good" beside Burt Blyvelyn, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, and Tommy John.


That's the other case you could make-- that 'fame' is more the product of the athlete's best years, and not the integrated sum of their contributions. Mussina was very good for nearly every year of his career, but never dominant-- even in the year where he was the best pitcher in the AL, it was only by a thin margin, and the Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling combo was the real pitching story in baseball.
 
2008-11-20 09:49:07 AM  

chimp_ninja: They're on the same damn team, but Clemens gets freakishly good run support and Mussina gets freakishly bad run support.


You may very well be right about this, but is run support purely a matter of chance? I don't know how one would go about quantifying why a team scores more runs when one pitcher pitches than another, but if it happens consistently, maybe something is happening.
 
2008-11-20 10:00:43 AM  

bark_atda_moon: I defy you to come up with a good argument why Mike Mussina does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

Besides all the "almosts" listed above. He was never a dominant pitcher. Always good, never great. He definitely makes the starting rotation in the "Hall of Pretty Good" beside Burt Blyvelyn, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, and Tommy John.


That's not an argument. That's an assertion. Nolan Ryan was never the best pitcher in baseball. Should we kick him out?
 
2008-11-20 10:16:34 AM  

effexca: rocinante721: Moose was a great guy; on the mound & off.

Tell that to Cito Gaston. Gaston was hated by Baltimore fans for years because of Mussina's actions at the 1993 All Star game.


I farking hate Mussina, but the people in Baltimore hated Gaston for Gaston's actions...not Mussina's.
 
2008-11-20 10:19:21 AM  

chimp_ninja: beantowndog: Almost won a World Series.

And yet more stupid. Mussina's contribution to the 2 Series he played in: 3 starts, 3.00 ERA, 18 IP, 23 K, 5 BB. His team went 0-3, due to poor performances by people who are not named Mike Mussina.

How dare he not also crush homers from the cleanup spot and play good defense at shortstop!


It wasn't me that came up with the nickname Mr. Almost.
 
2008-11-20 10:26:38 AM  

Clonod: I defy you to come up with a good argument why Mike Mussina does not belong in the Hall of Fame.


He's almost as good as Bert Blyleven.
 
2008-11-20 10:27:28 AM  

beantowndog: Clonod: I defy you to come up with a good argument why Mike Mussina does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

He's almost as good as Bert Blyleven.


I defy you to come up with a good argument on Blyleven, and apply that argument to Mussina.
 
2008-11-20 10:28:00 AM  
Was he afraid of Palin?
 
2008-11-20 10:39:18 AM  

Clonod: I defy you to come up with a good argument on Blyleven, and apply that argument to Mussina.


Blyleven ins't in the HOF ???
 
2008-11-20 10:44:01 AM  

beantowndog: Clonod: I defy you to come up with a good argument on Blyleven, and apply that argument to Mussina.

Blyleven ins't in the HOF ∴ ???


He's also better than probably 30 pitchers who are.

And so is Mussina.
 
2008-11-20 11:03:55 AM  
Nolan Ryan is actually pretty far down the list of "best pitchers ever". I wouldn't go as far as saying he shouldn't be in, but if I had to pick one guy in their prime to win a game for me, there are many, many better picks.

Oh but right, 7 no-hitters, 5000 Ks, pitched forever, kicked Robin Ventura's ass, etc.
 
2008-11-20 11:09:04 AM  

ElwoodCuse: Nolan Ryan is actually pretty far down the list of "best pitchers ever". I wouldn't go as far as saying he shouldn't be in, but if I had to pick one guy in their prime to win a game for me, there are many, many better picks.

Oh but right, 7 no-hitters, 5000 Ks, pitched forever, kicked Robin Ventura's ass, etc.


I agree with you. But he's a deserving HOF pitcher.

The "never dominant" thing is just made up. There are dozens of hitters and pitchers in the HOF who were never the best.

Mussina had one of the best careers for a pitcher in the history of baseball. He belongs in the HOF.
 
2008-11-20 11:27:45 AM  

effexca: rocinante721: Moose was a great guy; on the mound & off.

Tell that to Cito Gaston. Gaston was hated by Baltimore fans for years because of Mussina's actions at the 1993 All Star game.

Or how about when Mussina openly criticized the pre-game tribute to long time Jays broadcaster Tom Cheek, who finally succumbed to cancer?

Mussina a nice guy? No.


Sure maybe he wasn't a nice guy in the traditional sense but he was Yankee-nice
 
2008-11-20 11:36:12 AM  
Instead of arguing against Mussina getting in, what is the argument for him getting in?

270 wins, 3.68ERA, 2,813 Ks, 1.192 WHIP

All very very good. Maybe if he pitched 2 more years and got to 300 wins and 3,000Ks I could see him making it. Without that, he just comes up short.
 
2008-11-20 12:00:49 PM  

chimp_ninja: Mussina outpitches Clemens in every way. They're on the same damn team, but Clemens gets freakishly good run support and Mussina gets freakishly bad run support. The production of the offense has nothing to do with Mussina, but he takes the fall since his record is 17-11 and Roger's isn't.


Maybe he would have gotten better run support if his teammates didn't hate him.

Clonod: The "never dominant" thing is just made up. There are dozens of hitters and pitchers in the HOF who were never the best.

Mussina had one of the best careers for a pitcher in the history of baseball. He belongs in the HOF.


Just because there are undeserving players already in the Hall doesn't mean there should be more.

Compare Mussina to his contemporaries who are certain HOFers, and he doesn't measure up. Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson and Roger "Juice" Clemens are the HOFers from this generation.

I think Moose comes in just outside of that group.
 
2008-11-20 12:10:03 PM  
For the first time in his career (and he's 40!) he wins 20 games in a season and he decides to quit? That's almost as retarded as Favre wanting to quit after he had his best year at 38.
 
2008-11-20 12:10:14 PM  
Just wanted to say:

You rock, Subby

/love the headline
//T-shirt, anyone?
 
2008-11-20 12:13:38 PM  
Me and a buddy from high school used to go a couple of Orioles games every summer (93-96). It seemed like every time we went, Moose was pitching and he'd throw a one-hit or two-hit shut out. He's one of the best pitchers I've seen live. He doesn't have the star power of Maddux, Glavine, or Schiling, but he's always put up better than average stats every year. And he pitched in the toughest division in baseball for his whole career.
 
2008-11-20 12:15:30 PM  

bark_atda_moon: Instead of arguing against Mussina getting in, what is the argument for him getting in?

270 wins, 3.68ERA, 2,813 Ks, 1.192 WHIP

All very very good. Maybe if he pitched 2 more years and got to 300 wins and 3,000Ks I could see him making it. Without that, he just comes up short.


Well that's just ridiculous to set arbitrary benchmarks to get in, like 300 wins or 3,000 Ks.

Here's what I do know.

Non-Stathead Version

270 wins to only 153 losses. His winning percentage is top 10 all time for pitchers with that many decisions.

Top 5 in wins 7 times
5-time All Star
7-time Gold Glove Winner
Named on Cy Young ballots 9 times.

2813 Strikeouts - 19th all time

Stathead Version

13th best pitcher all time in K/BB ratio.
Top 10 in ERA 11 times, despite pitching his entire career in the difficult AL East.
Career WARP3 of 132.4. (top 20 all time for pitchers)

The same way that you need to look at the hitters of the 90s through a special lens, you need to look at pitchers the same way.
Mike Mussina was indisputably one of the very best pitchers of his generation and deserves a spot in Cooperstown.
 
2008-11-20 12:16:48 PM  

Yanks_RSJ: chimp_ninja: Mussina outpitches Clemens in every way. They're on the same damn team, but Clemens gets freakishly good run support and Mussina gets freakishly bad run support. The production of the offense has nothing to do with Mussina, but he takes the fall since his record is 17-11 and Roger's isn't.

Maybe he would have gotten better run support if his teammates didn't hate him.

Clonod: The "never dominant" thing is just made up. There are dozens of hitters and pitchers in the HOF who were never the best.

Mussina had one of the best careers for a pitcher in the history of baseball. He belongs in the HOF.

Just because there are undeserving players already in the Hall doesn't mean there should be more.

Compare Mussina to his contemporaries who are certain HOFers, and he doesn't measure up. Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson and Roger "Juice" Clemens are the HOFers from this generation.

I think Moose comes in just outside of that group.


What do you mean "the" HOFers of this generation? You can only have 4?
 
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