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(NPR)   NPR: Will $25 billion be enough for the auto industry, Congressman Frank? Frank: Hahahahaha, no, we've got another $75 billion or so penciled in for March 09' (audio in link)   (npr.org) divider line 393
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1596 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Nov 2008 at 10:33 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-11-19 09:55:44 AM  
Feature creep.

The bailout was meant for the mortgage industry, it has now gone to banks in general (I know, banks do martgages) but now it is creeping over to the auto industry.

Nice.
 
2008-11-19 10:38:18 AM  
Remember folks, it's not welfare when corporations get free money...
 
2008-11-19 10:38:24 AM  
The auto industry needs to die and be reborn from its ashes. I didn't see Toyota lined up at the congressional hearings asking for handouts.
 
2008-11-19 10:38:27 AM  
I heard one analyst on the news that a bailout for the auto industry won't necessarily bail them out... it only prolongs the inevitable bankruptcy.
 
2008-11-19 10:38:38 AM  
why don't we just monetize the entire debt and turn our currency into Zimbawean dollars? I'm sick of this half-measure crap.
 
2008-11-19 10:38:47 AM  
databit: Feature creep.

The bailout was meant for the mortgage industry, it has now gone to banks in general (I know, banks do martgages) but now it is creeping over to the auto industry.

Nice.


General Motors Acceptance Corporation is a financial arm of GM. There si Daimler Chrysler Financial Services so it is not that big of a stretch for a politician.
 
2008-11-19 10:39:13 AM  
Bankruptcy.

Break the unions.
 
2008-11-19 10:39:39 AM  
Once again, if there is no plan to get these companies back in the black, we're just throwing good money after bad.

Maybe Barney should explain why and how long the taxpayers should fund continued losses.
 
2008-11-19 10:41:11 AM  
www.the-frat-pack.com

"Oh, come on!! This is getting to be ri-goddamn-diculous!"
 
2008-11-19 10:42:11 AM  
And of course, I'm totally against this...

We need less cars on our roads, not more.
 
2008-11-19 10:43:16 AM  
I always thought 100b will be the final number given their cash burn rate
 
2008-11-19 10:43:41 AM  
I heard this interview this morning... Fark Frank.

The NPR interviewer was asking him some pretty simple questions, in typical highly professional NPR style, and he got all defensive and snippy about it. Accusing the interviewer of being intent on twisting his words. What a douchebag.

Frank spends years pushing major sectors of the the US economy to get themselves into financial trouble - and now he gets all butthurt when someone actually (what horrror of horrors) asks him to elaborate on the details of his latest hare-brained scheme to make things worse.

Fark Barney Frank. He should go home in disgrace.
 
2008-11-19 10:44:05 AM  
BFletch651: Bankruptcy.

Break the unions.


Robocop would take care of those.
 
2008-11-19 10:44:13 AM  
"They're dying, Jim."

"Let them die!"
 
2008-11-19 10:45:01 AM  
This wouldn't have happened if the Dems had a backbone and said point blank that if you get a bailout, your executives all get tossed out on their asses without bonuses.

I feel that a lot of companies would either cope with the losses and find a way through the mess, or the shareholders would revolt against the executives and force the acceptance of the terms of a bailout.

/I know next to nothing about the economics of such a "Our way or the highway" plan
//I just know that I don't like tax dollars being passed out to companies like AIG to go on spa trips
 
2008-11-19 10:45:47 AM  
I found myself agreeing with Mitt Romney this morning when he did the morning show circuit. Face the fact that these companies, if they are not completely overhauled, are going to collapse and take all the bailout money with them.

The complete unwillingness of those elected to be answerable to the people who elected them in lieu of Wall Street and major lobbyists is going to doom this country, maybe not to another Great Depression, but to a continuing decline in world-wide leadership in invention and ingenuity.
 
2008-11-19 10:49:35 AM  
BFletch651: Bankruptcy.

Break the unions.


Yeah fark em unions. Fark em workers too, they can go back to starvation wages and having the company own their children, and their children's children.

Farking common man, we need to bring back union busters and shoot people who assemble to picket.
 
2008-11-19 10:49:58 AM  
I heard that Barney Frank is gay.
 
2008-11-19 10:50:42 AM  
I doubt this could happen for any legal reason. But it would be cheaper to give a long term low interest rate mortgage to Tesla motors or similar start up green car company so they could buy GM's old property. And then give every American GM employee, 45k up front, to relocate or find a new job. It would be cheaper. Not gonna happen. Would be less than 25 billion though.

You'd have money left over to give loans to the companies who depend on GM while Tesla (or similar) tries to figure out what parts they need.

Perhaps I don't know the situation very well.
 
2008-11-19 10:52:03 AM  
If they get the money and make the same ole crappy cars, what will have been gained?
 
2008-11-19 10:52:29 AM  
Behold GM's future

i84.photobucket.com

India's auto industry was protected and coddled by its government for decades. The result? Their cars were 50 years out of date when the tariffs and protectionism finally came down. This Hindustan Ambassador is still made, NEW, and remains a clone of the 1957 Morris Oxford. If you're cheap, you can still get bias ply tires and drum brakes all around. Thankfully the Indian middle class has been able to buy other cars since the '90s. As a result, the Amby's market has shrunk to mostly government staff cars and taxis.

And even now guess who buys most Ford Rangers and Lincoln Towncars...
 
2008-11-19 10:53:47 AM  
Makh: I doubt this could happen for any legal reason. But it would be cheaper to give a long term low interest rate mortgage to Tesla motors or similar start up green car company so they could buy GM's old property. And then give every American GM employee, 45k up front, to relocate or find a new job. It would be cheaper. Not gonna happen. Would be less than 25 billion though.

You'd have money left over to give loans to the companies who depend on GM while Tesla (or similar) tries to figure out what parts they need.

Perhaps I don't know the situation very well.


Include tax incentives to prospective vendors (parts)and it would be an excellent plan.
 
2008-11-19 10:53:47 AM  
Well duh. GM has 16 billion in liquid cash, and they don't think it'll last the end of the year. That 25 billion is supposed to be split between the big three. I think they are trying to get it so they break the ice then will come crawling back a week later for billions more.

Let 'em die. I drive a Honda.
 
2008-11-19 10:54:40 AM  
Bored Horde: BFletch651: Bankruptcy.

Break the unions.

Yeah fark em unions. Fark em workers too, they can go back to starvation wages and having the company own their children, and their children's children.

Farking common man, we need to bring back union busters and shoot people who assemble to picket.


This country needs a strong domestic auto industry. But its impossible for these companies to do that in their present form. Honda, Toyota, Mercedes and Hyundai all manage to manufacture cars profitably in the USA without unions. These workers don't have starvation wages.

Related issue: nationalized health insurance, AKA single payer, would do far more for both big companies and the workers than any cash bailout.
 
2008-11-19 10:54:52 AM  
Spaztictacular: I found myself agreeing with Mitt Romney this morning when he did the morning show circuit. Face the fact that these companies, if they are not completely overhauled, are going to collapse and take all the bailout money with them.

First of all, who the hell is Romney to be taken seriously on anything, and secondly, let them collapse.

Big business in this country is so two-faced. On one hand, they're always so serious about how capitalism is so DIY from rags to riches, working hard, and in the same breath they're like "oh, we're broke. Save us."

Let their own stockholders save them. Let their deep-pockets board of directors save them.

We've got a looming environmental catastrophe because there are too many cars on the road. How are we going to SHARPLY reduce hydrocarbons if we're throwing money at the fat cats?

Money we should be using in a national program to get us off oil and away from personal vehicles.
 
2008-11-19 10:55:16 AM  
Bored Horde: Yeah fark em unions. Fark em workers too, they can go back to starvation wages and having the company own their children, and their children's children.

Farking common man, we need to bring back union busters and shoot people who assemble to picket.


Why are union supporters prone to such ridiculous hyperbole?

The end result of not having a union would be less wages and less benefits, not picketers being shot and companies owning children. Grow the fark up and learn how to think like a rational person.
 
2008-11-19 10:56:19 AM  
Millions of working depend on the big 3. Sadly their management is shiat. And I can't see any reason for throwing money down a rat hole when the Management of GM is telling congress there is nothing wrong with their business model.
 
2008-11-19 10:56:28 AM  
I still think the best solution is a pre-pack bankruptcy. Have GM declare Chapter 11, but have the US government stand behind all of GM's accounts payable and warranty claims for say, a year. Wipe out GM shareholders and debtholders, then give them all equity in the new GM. Warrants to the government if you want. You can keep VEBA in place, and once they hit 2010, that will be the health benefit off of GM's back. GM starts off with a clean sheet, reduced legacy benefits, at minimum cost to the taxpayer. If they're right about making quality cars, then this shouldn't be a problem.

I would also demand that Ford bring its European cars over to the US and replace the crap they sell there. Also, add an IRS to the Mustang.

Chrysler is probably still screwed.
 
2008-11-19 10:56:33 AM  
Rapmaster2000: I heard that Barney Frank is gay.

You mean Barney Fag?
 
2008-11-19 10:57:38 AM  
Rapmaster2000: I heard that Barney Frank is gay.

Yeah, I heard that too! And in yesterday's "Barney Frank is responsible for the mortgage crisis" thread I heard that gay people lisp. And some other stuff about meat and refrigerators and fudge.
 
2008-11-19 10:57:46 AM  
whidbey: We've got a looming environmental catastrophe because there are too many cars on the road. How are we going to SHARPLY reduce hydrocarbons if we're throwing money at the fat cats?

Zactly...greetings from Hamburg Whid, I took the ferry, a bus and then the train home from work today. Awesome. Great transpo system. It was seamless.
 
2008-11-19 10:58:15 AM  
DarnoKonrad: Millions of working depend on the big 3.

Millions that could be trained to do something else, something more fulfilling with the 25 BILLION dollars we're throwing at a f*cked up industry.
 
2008-11-19 10:58:34 AM  
If it weren't for my union I would be making 8 cents an hour and they would own all of my children and I'd be starving in the streets while my co-workers are gunned down like dogs by the kkkapitalist police executives.

It's getting harder and harder to defend unions when 99 out of 100 pro-union posts are nothing more than far-fetched, chicken-little predictions of slavery, doom and gloom.
 
2008-11-19 11:00:17 AM  
Bored Horde: BFletch651: Bankruptcy.

Break the unions.

Yeah fark em unions. Fark em workers too, they can go back to starvation wages and having the company own their children, and their children's children.

Farking common man, we need to bring back union busters and shoot people who assemble to picket.


Yes, because the non-union worker at Toyota are dying on their wages. Oh, wait, they're doing fine and their companies are profitable? Nevermind.

I hope these companies finally die and Toyota/Honda/VW take over the plants so we can again have profitable manufacturing in Detroit.
 
2008-11-19 11:00:20 AM  
OBVIOUSMEGAFECTA
 
2008-11-19 11:00:42 AM  
Holy crap. Someone finally admitted that this $25B $50B is the pre-bailout before the real bailout? I figured they'd hide that fact and hope that no one would notice that $50B would only sustain them for a few months.
 
2008-11-19 11:01:06 AM  
smeegle: greetings from Hamburg Whid,

Awesome.

I took the ferry, a bus and then the train home from work today.

Hey, we've got all three up here, too! Boats rule...:)
 
2008-11-19 11:01:51 AM  
I guess only business tab people will get that

/Politics tab people don't DESERVE to get it >:/
 
2008-11-19 11:02:06 AM  
mongbiohazard: Frank ... gets all butthurt

Frank could probably be fisted all night by Popeye, Bluto, and Mark McGwire and not be butthurt.

/NTTAWWT
 
2008-11-19 11:02:38 AM  
Kenwhat: The end result of not having a union would be less wages and less benefits, not picketers being shot and companies owning children. Grow the fark up and learn how to think like a rational person.

Before Unions, that was exactly how it was. Henry Ford basically owned your ass.

Unions didn't appear in a vacuum.
 
2008-11-19 11:02:57 AM  
whidbey: smeegle: greetings from Hamburg Whid,

Awesome.

I took the ferry, a bus and then the train home from work today.

Hey, we've got all three up here, too! Boats rule...:)


You bet. Instead of being stuck in traffic I enjoyed a nice German beer during my commute. I think I am going to like working here. Just got here on Sunday.
 
2008-11-19 11:04:46 AM  
ptr2void: Frank could probably be fisted all night by Popeye, Bluto, and Mark McGwire and not be butthurt.

You're an asshole.
 
2008-11-19 11:05:18 AM  
pd771: Yes, because the non-union worker at Toyota are dying on their wages. Oh, wait, they're doing fine and their companies are profitable? Nevermind.

I hope these companies finally die and Toyota/Honda/VW take over the plants so we can again have profitable manufacturing in Detroit.


Unions and profitability are irrelevant. As someone mentioned above, nationalized health care would do far more for the American Auto industry.

But even that doesn't build quality cars. Honda is run by engineers. . .GM is by a marketing department. . and the quality shows.
 
2008-11-19 11:05:24 AM  
DarnoKonrad: Kenwhat: The end result of not having a union would be less wages and less benefits, not picketers being shot and companies owning children. Grow the fark up and learn how to think like a rational person.

Before Unions, that was exactly how it was. Henry Ford basically owned your ass.

Unions didn't appear in a vacuum.


Yes, but with OSHA, and lawyers who will take on these cases, Unions are obsolete. The world isn't the same as it was 100 years ago.
 
2008-11-19 11:07:52 AM  
NuclearWinter: I feel that a lot of companies would either cope with the losses and find a way through the mess, or the shareholders would revolt against the executives and force the acceptance of the terms of a bailout.

That's a great idea. Let's just usurp 200 years of contract law all in one swell foop. Seriously, the shareholders got themselves into this mess. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't feel the pain.
 
2008-11-19 11:08:28 AM  
DarnoKonrad: Unions and profitability are irrelevant. As someone mentioned above, nationalized health care would do far more for the American Auto industry.

But even that doesn't build quality cars. Honda is run by engineers. . .GM is by a marketing department. . and the quality shows.


They'd still have to pay all the retiree benefits, and they'd still go under. The fact is, GM is going to die. The only question is how much of our tax payer money is going to be wasted before that happens.
 
2008-11-19 11:09:13 AM  
There are a couple hundred thousand Americans building cars just fine in the south. They're not asking for bailout money.

Of course, those are non-union factories.
 
2008-11-19 11:09:20 AM  
Bored Horde: BFletch651: Bankruptcy.

Break the unions.

Yeah fark em unions. Fark em workers too, they can go back to starvation wages and having the company own their children, and their children's children.

Farking common man, we need to bring back union busters and shoot people who assemble to picket.




Yeah, because $48/hr is slave wages. This is what the average non union auto worker makes. C,mon UAW is a blight on the cause of unionization.

/Free Market type
//Also Organized a Union.
///Was told from the get go that if you try and destroy the company noone has jobs.
 
2008-11-19 11:09:28 AM  
FTA:

Well, [insurance company] AIG, which I don't think anyone would think was as important to the American economy as the auto industry ... got $40 billion just now to make it up over $100 billion. To some extent, let's not have a white-collar/blue-collar bias in our public policy.


Class warfare?! Seriously? AIG was *NATIONALIZED* to avoid an even more massive banking collapse. And you know that Frank. Take the UAWs dick out of your mouth before you try to talk. If you want to let the us gov take a 80% equity stake in the big three, go ahead, free cars for every taxpayer!
 
2008-11-19 11:10:32 AM  
Looking at Chrysler and it's decision to try to capitalize on stupid nostalgia for for 1970's style American gas guzzlers like the Challenger, and the relative success of the fuel efficient non-American competition, how is a bail-out not considered completely ridiculous?
 
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