Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Daily Mail)   "Inmates running the asylum" as students as young as five given the right to offer opinions on everything from school curriculum to discipline   (dailymail.co.uk ) divider line 125
    More: Fail  
•       •       •

5915 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Nov 2008 at 1:43 PM (7 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



125 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2008-11-15 04:47:35 PM  

Thunderpipes: Is this a rich private school?


Most of these schools are public charter schools. Some are private.

As for how colleges view them, very well. Again, I can't speak to Sudbury specifically, but generally a folder is sent to the college. There is a letter that explains the fact that the school does not give grades. Depending on the school will depend on what's in the folder. Usually it is samples or descriptions and explanations of products created by the student. Oftentimes, a CV is included. Also, faculty recommendations and scores from any standardized tests (SAT, ACT, AP, IB) the student has taken.

Usually, admissions officers appreciate it because they feel they get to know the student really well, as opposed to "another 3.65 GPA student who took AP English, AP US, AP Calc, blah blah blah" Grades are very arbitrary and don't mean the same thing within a school, let alone between schools. Accomplishments and products from schools like this are often unique and it is easy to judge their value and quality.
 
2008-11-15 04:47:36 PM  

John Dewey: Out of curiosity...how are the "do nothings" handled? I know they are generally rare in these schools, but they do happen.


Some kids switch from public schools to SVS because they just don't thrive in the public school environment. They might spend six months doing nothing. Eventually, they become aware of all the interesting things going on around them and they get involved. Some kids don't and they end up leaving for a different environment.
 
2008-11-15 04:52:05 PM  

Thunderpipes: Is this a rich private school?


Now I'm going to read a little more into this then maybe you had intended.

No, schools like these do not work only with affluent kids. When done correctly, they are just as successful in rural and very urban areas.
 
2008-11-15 04:54:37 PM  

SchlingFocker: Is that my superhero name?


Were you being sarcastic?

ExJerseyGirl: His dad was a producer/engineer for years and is now a professor teaching Audio production. So unfortunately our son thinks it might be a viable path to pursue. We would both be happier if our son went into something more lucrative than music, but that ain't going to happen anytime soon.


Passion is passion.

/I still play regularly
 
2008-11-15 04:58:24 PM  

It bears repeating:

DAILY FAIL

 
2008-11-15 04:58:37 PM  

MacEnvy: I assume the tag is for the Daily Fail, who once again makes a mountain out of a molehill via a variety of "ifs", "coulds" and "mights".


The teacher's union seems to be worried about it. Perhaps they don't find the "hurr hurr Daily Fail" argument as persuasive or as relevant as you do?

For those Farkers who believe this is a great idea: the whole f*cking point of education is to teach children things they don't already know and inculcate them with values they don't already have. Children are necessarily in an unequal position of power with respect to teachers, because they are too young to have earned or merited the same kind of authority. And they are not, as has also been suggested, consumers of education in the same way as you or I are consumers in our everyday dealings with corporations. They don't get to dictate the terms of their education. Not every form of human interaction can be reduced to the level of an economic transaction -- especially when children are involved.
 
2008-11-15 04:59:14 PM  

Thunderpipes: How do colleges view these schools? I am honestly curious. Even though I am an old fashioned guy and think students should be diciplined, and stick to the basics, I must admit I was never challenged in school. Everything was easy and boring.

I would not trust myself to make up the rules though, the school would explode in a cloud of beer.

Is this a rich private school?


SVS is about $6K a year. I wouldn't call it a rich private school. The students going on tocollege usually take SATs. Because the school has been around for decades, there are many colleges who have accepted students from there and know that the students are capable of handling college. So, while it is harder to get into some colleges, there are still plenty of opportunities to continue with higher ed.
 
2008-11-15 05:11:58 PM  

Epsilon: This should work splendidly. Because every five year old knows what's best for himself.


You could make the same argument about U.S. citizens. Who actually knows what's best for themselves, and who actually follows through with it? Children are just shorter, younger people. If your kid likes to scream and yell and run about in public, he's not just 'being a kid,' he's being an asshole.
 
2008-11-15 05:12:16 PM  

alltandubh: For those Farkers who believe this is a great idea: the whole f*cking point of education is to teach children things they don't already know and inculcate them with values they don't already have.


What you are describing, to me, is indoctrination. These are the things you have to know, this is how you will view them, and this is how you will act.

Education, on the other hand, is exploring and interacting with the world around you and making sense of it.

alltandubh: Children are necessarily in an unequal position of power with respect to teachers, because they are too young to have earned or merited the same kind of authority.


Why are you so threatened by the idea of children making their own decisions? Because they might actually learn something from them? Or that they might actually learn they don't need adults as much as they think they do? What I often find is when treated with respect by adults around them, they are more likely to treat adults with respect and listen to the adult's advice/input and are more likely to follow it.

alltandubh: And they are not, as has also been suggested, consumers of education in the same way as you or I are consumers in our everyday dealings with corporations. They don't get to dictate the terms of their education. Not every form of human interaction can be reduced to the level of an economic transaction -- especially when children are involved.


Students are going to be consumers of information regardless of the school's structure. They decide what information to take in as schools are currently organized. If it's boring, they shut the teacher out. If they need it for a test AND want a good grade, they retain (or attempt to retain) it. They also decide for what purpose it will serve as well (pass the class, help in their eventual career, etc.). The difference is that at schools like Sudbury, the students have much more control over what information they get, where they get it, what information is worth getting, and what the worth of the information they obtain is. All of that is generally decided by an outside force in traditional schools. How is the student taking control/responsibility for their own education a bad thing?
 
2008-11-15 05:14:45 PM  

John Dewey: IlGreven: SchlingFocker: ExJerseyGirl: No grades and they do what they want. Not for everyone, but for my son it is the right environment.

The best way to teach someone how to function in a society where they will have to meet performance objectives and follow a plethora of rules is to raise them in an environment with no performance objectives and no rules.

And the best way to ready them for a world with production goals and specific skills is to teach to a general education test that has little to no bearing in most jobs.

And the best way to ready them for a mindless existence of following the direction of others without question is to impose rules and regulations and arbitrary standards and consequences on them.


Exactly. Your teacher becomes your supervisor and your principal becomes your CEO. Keeping your head down and doing what's right without having any independent thought will get you through life without any issue, comrade.
 
2008-11-15 05:16:40 PM  

hasty ambush: The only opinions a 5 year old (or anybody who can be entertained by a purple dino) should have are the ones he is told to have.


And you watch what? Grown men bending over and chasing after a ball for two hours?
 
2008-11-15 05:27:07 PM  

alltandubh: They don't get to dictate the terms of their education.


No one's saying they should "dictate" them. Even the headline had the soft words "offer opinions." It's nice that they can have a say.

Were you ever a kid before? Did you like learning about human rights in class and learning that you have no rights in school? Did you enjoy being treated like a group and not an individual and taking the blame for shiat you didn't do?
 
2008-11-15 05:29:56 PM  
-1 subby for being a moran.
 
2008-11-15 05:48:44 PM  
I dont understand why people become teachers nowadays. They get paid shiat and get abused on a daily basis.
 
2008-11-15 06:03:46 PM  
www.mentalhelp.net
You know who to blame.


I prefer Fred Jones
 
2008-11-15 06:10:13 PM  

LeChevalier: You know who to blame.


Why did you choose to post this pic?
 
2008-11-15 07:08:49 PM  
I cannot believe the number of people I have met who feel that "children should be allowed to decide their own cirriculum". How do children know what is good and what is not? These parents were convinced that their precious snowflakes were geniuses who were being held back by the local school system (as the public schools cater to the lowest common denominator, I have to agree there). I asked one mother if she would allow her child to do the grocery shopping and she was adamant that the child would pick outonly healthy, nutritious foods and, in a school setting, would only pick out the hardest and most useful classes. The kid was 10 at the time.

Our culture is so focussed on what the children want that we have lost sight of what we need. Children need guidance and parents, not adult friends to "rah rah" them on and give in to every need. My job has me dealing with customer service desks more often than I would like and the young people who man these desks have no idea what a "customer" or "service" is. They resent having to get off of their personal calls in order to wait on some idiot with a question or a problem.

/Bring back the days of "Oliver Twist" or "David Copperfield".
//Bring back child slave labor as well. Might as well get some use out of the little buggers.
 
2008-11-15 07:17:09 PM  
Thunderpipes

What job did your parents choose for you?
 
2008-11-15 08:05:44 PM  

jack21221: This actually works well in the Sudbury Valley school and other schools modeled on that system.


Amen. I was waiting for someone to cough that place up.

/Smoking area, anyone?
 
2008-11-15 08:11:08 PM  

SchlingFocker: IlGreven: And the best way to ready them for a world with production goals and specific skills is to teach to a general education test that has little to no bearing in most jobs.

Hey, I'll be the first to biatch about the teaching methods employed in our public schools.

But, putting kids in a school with no grades and no rules? Absolutely farking retarded. Of course the kid's going to be happy. He can do whatever he wants whenever he wants. That's called vacation. They're nice to have from time to time.

But, life's not going to be a vacation, and if they don't have any concept of evaluations, deadlines, scheduling, or time management, they're going to be totally farked when they leave the house at 18.


I'll tell that to the two girls that left and graduated valedictorian at Oxford and Northeastern respectively. Oh, and the computer programmer who pulls in 120k/yr because he spent the time learning how to do it. And the kid who flies planes. And the one who's a sponsored unicyclist. And the multitude of others who own businesses and are otherwise happy and successful.
 
2008-11-15 08:12:42 PM  

Lee451: children should be allowed to decide their own cirriculum


Let's hope that you have no say in anyone's "ciirriulum."
 
2008-11-15 09:35:52 PM  
LeChevalier: You know who to blame.

Why did you choose to post this pic?


Don't you sass me!
 
2008-11-15 11:04:04 PM  

LeChevalier: Don't you sass me!


I must admit, I was rather pleased with my response.
 
2008-11-15 11:26:53 PM  
Oh...I can't resist.

Lee451: I cannot believe the number of people I have met who feel that "children should be allowed to decide their own cirriculum".


And I can't believe the number of people who don't.

Lee451: How do children know what is good and what is not?


From this, I am surmising that you believe there is stuff worth knowing and stuff not worth knowing. Things worth spending your time on and things not worth it. How did you determine this? How can a child determine it without being given the opportunity to do so?

If it's skills you're worried about, don't. To accomplish/learn much of anything in any field they will need the basics and they will learn them through the field, rather than separately from it. This is a much more powerful and effective way to learn.

Lee451: These parents were convinced that their precious snowflakes were geniuses who were being held back by the local school system (as the public schools cater to the lowest common denominator, I have to agree there).


I will agree that most parents at these schools believe the public school system doesn't have the best methodology or structure.

Lee451: I asked one mother if she would allow her child to do the grocery shopping and she was adamant that the child would pick outonly healthy, nutritious foods and, in a school setting, would only pick out the hardest and most useful classes. The kid was 10 at the time.


This mother is most likely an idiot, as you point out. People who believe children will always make the best choice if adults just stand back are idiots. Children will make mistakes. That's part of learning. That's part of being a child.

Besides, food choices are a completely different animal from curiosity. These schools and their students thrive on the curiosity of children, not on their palates which can be effected by a great number of forces.

Lee451: Our culture is so focussed on what the children want that we have lost sight of what we need.


Of what "we" need? I'm going to assume you mean children. I don't think they're focused on what children "want". I think they're focused on "what's the easiest way to get through the day because I'm exhausted" or they're focused on "I only get to spend a little time with my kid, is this fight really worth it?".

And if you think school are focused on what the child wants, you are only kidding yourself. Schools are all about what the school/district/state/govt. wants.



Lee451: Children need guidance and parents, not adult friends to "rah rah" them on and give in to every need.


I agree, they do need guidance. I agree, they do need parents. I disagree on the "rah rah" bit, though. They do need to know that the adults in their life will cheer them on. They need to know they are supported. I agree with you in that they do not need to hear "good job" for every little thing they do. That's condescending. I also agree that we should not give in to a child's every need. They need to realize the importance of prioritization and delayed gratification. But that means not saying "because I said so" as often. It means taking the time to explain the reasoning. If they see/hear us reason, they will pick up those habits. Modeling is such a powerful force.

Lee451: My job has me dealing with customer service desks more often than I would like and the young people who man these desks have no idea what a "customer" or "service" is. They resent having to get off of their personal calls in order to wait on some idiot with a question or a problem.


Ask around. See how many of them went to a school like Sudbury. I'm willing to bet 0. Go on. Ask. I'm willing to bet all of them went to your typical public school. Of course, that's just anecdotal evidence and a small sample size, to boot. Nothing really to be learned from there.

Besides, I'm not arguing that the youth of today couldn't use a healthy dose of respect for others. They could. What I'm putting forth is that it is schools like Sudbury that are more likely to give that to them because they are constantly having to see things from the perspective of others and having to work with others to accomplish things. More so than in your typical public school where the motto is basically, "Do what I gotta do to get through" which usually amounts to keeping your head down and jumping through hoops and making as few waves as possible.


Lee451: /Bring back the days of "Oliver Twist" or "David Copperfield".
//Bring back child slave labor as well. Might as well get some use out of the little buggers.


Up until this point, you weren't a troll. Too bad.
 
2008-11-16 01:44:25 AM  
I thought letting kids discuss if they liked the new weapons in grade school for the arms race before the berlin wall fell... is what made it fall...?
 
Displayed 25 of 125 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report