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(My Fox DC)   Study: The rich cheat on their taxes more often. Also, ground is moist where it rains   (myfoxdc.com) divider line 175
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2677 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Oct 2008 at 11:03 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-10-23 11:28:30 AM
Great Gonzo: Farkers For A Flat Tax!!!

/I wantz it


Never happen. Stop dreaming.
 
2008-10-23 11:28:52 AM
dragonchild: The only thing they don't pay much of is the income tax, and if you don't pay income tax you're barely scraping by. I don't know anyone who will seriously trade their higher wage for the no-income-tax bracket and the desperate poverty that goes with it.

If you listen to the class-warfare enthusiasts on Fark, most of the wealthy people in this country are just waiting to do that if their marginal rate goes up by a few percentage points. Just like that! [snaps fingers] There goes the incentive to be rich!
 
2008-10-23 11:29:12 AM
The rich have money to defend themselves, and the poor don't make enough for them to waste the time, so the IRS pretty much exclusively focuses on the middle class when going after tax cheats.
 
2008-10-23 11:31:02 AM
mstang1988: Who thinks it's because the poor make so little that they don't have to pay taxes so it would be impossible to cheat?

This guy!
 
2008-10-23 11:31:09 AM
dragonchild: They're not exempt from FICA taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, city taxes and some state income taxes.

Actually, I'd argue that few poor people pay property taxes (directly) because they are renting. I pay no city taxes, but I suppose some people do. And state income taxes are fairly low.

But I never argued that rich people would prefer to be poor. I argued that poor people have no real agenda to cheat because the cheating would be inconsequential. It's a cost/benefit thing.
 
2008-10-23 11:31:48 AM
Broktun: The rich hire people to cheat on their taxes for them.

Those people are called congressmen.
 
2008-10-23 11:32:47 AM
Uh, since 40% don't pay taxes, and those are generally the people earning the least, wouldn't it make sense that since

1. Only people who need to file taxes would cheat and
2. Rich people have the highest tax bracket and the greatest incentive to cheat and
3. Most tax shelters and such are offered to those with the most income

then the "rich" would cheat more often?

Thanks, Rick. Film at 11.
 
2008-10-23 11:32:59 AM
xCh: I love how the calls for the flat tax say that will solve this problem. As if hiding income when you have a flat tax is any harder than hiding the income when you have a progressive tax rate.

Exactly. Anything that's not a 100% solution to a problem is absolutely worthless and has no merit whatsoever.
 
2008-10-23 11:34:07 AM
I never got why there was never a standard tax rate.
like 10% or something.

you made 10$ we will take 1$
you made 10,000,000 we will take 1,000,000
really a family making 20,000 a year would lose 38$ on a weekly paycheck. Thats not bad at all and the government would see a huge serge of cash flow from larger cash earners who can pay people to get them through the tax loops
 
2008-10-23 11:35:24 AM
Jesus...I read that as "cheat on their wives" more often...good god.

And yeah.. having more money makes that easier too.
 
2008-10-23 11:36:28 AM
$1000 vs. possible three years in jail = retarded.

$10000000 vs. possible three years in jail = tempting.

/if only it were all this simple.
 
2008-10-23 11:36:41 AM
Zed-ex: I never got why there was never a standard tax rate.
like 10% or something.

you made 10$ we will take 1$
you made 10,000,000 we will take 1,000,000
really a family making 20,000 a year would lose 38$ on a weekly paycheck. Thats not bad at all and the government would see a huge serge of cash flow from larger cash earners who can pay people to get them through the tax loops


you put your dollar signs behind your numbers. That's fun.
 
2008-10-23 11:37:39 AM
ihatedumbpeople: Jesus...I read that as "cheat on their wives" more often...good god.

And yeah.. having more money makes that easier too.


Well, a lot of people do say that rich people are smarter, so that makes sense.
 
2008-10-23 11:38:28 AM
theorellior: ManRay: Social engineering though a progressive tax is just not going to work.

That's funny, it's been working for several decades now.


Given the state of our society, I'm not really sure you can say it's been working.
 
2008-10-23 11:39:23 AM
hmmm, so the article is saying the people who pay the most in taxes have the most incentive to get out of paying those taxes, brilliant assessment there Rick...back to the news...
 
2008-10-23 11:40:20 AM
Despite all the cheating and ominous tax code, the:

top 10% pay 70% of all taxes

top 50% pay 97% of all taxex

bottom 50% pay 3% of all taxes

Already looks pretty lopsided to me!! just saying
 
2008-10-23 11:40:34 AM
But... but...

McCain's website We now have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, making America a less attractive place for companies to do business.

Oh noes!
 
2008-10-23 11:41:03 AM
Good.

Until all citizens in society are required to contribute to the cause at the same rate, I fully support those who find any reason not to pay the full amount. It is shameful that someone a political person thinks is rich should pay while that same political person's constituent pays none.
 
2008-10-23 11:41:44 AM
The rich cheat on their taxes more often? That couldn't possibly be because the poor don't pay taxes could it subby?
 
2008-10-23 11:44:58 AM
fairtax.org

National sales tax would solve all the cheating problems. Plus, "undocumented workers," people earning money illegally, foreign tourists, etc would now be paying taxes also.

VAT would be very, very bad!
 
2008-10-23 11:45:06 AM
dragonchild [TotalFark] Quote 2008-10-23 11:25:56 AM
tonesskin: Poor people don't need to cheat on their taxes because they barely pay shiat anyway.

They're not exempt from FICA taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, city taxes and some state income taxes. They're also not exempt from fees, from parking to vehicle registration. Registering the junk heap to get to work is a sucker punch at that income bracket.



FICA Taxes are Social Security
- if you're expecting to collect, you should pay.

Property Taxes - Renters don't pay them. Everyone who owns property pays taxes. You should be happy to know that the tax is based on property value so fear not, the rich pay considerable more.

Sales taxes - Again, the rich, who buy more things and more expensive items pay far more sales taxes than the middle class or poor. For example, the sales tax on a Benz can be as high as the sale price on a Taurus.

State Income Tax - not sure what state you live in, but many have the same selective tax system where by many people pay none.


Car Registration
- here's another example of tiered payments. More expensive cars are far more expensive to register.


It's frightening to think that despite the selective federal income tax system where winners and losers are chosen by politicians sitting up on their thrones in DC, that people some how think that those who pay little or no Federal income taxes deserve the free ride simply because they have to pay SOME taxes.

it's worth noting that all of the above mentioned taxes go towards different things and the bulk of the Federal budget is provided for by income taxes. Therefore, 1/2 the country has little or no stake in the federal Government, except for what they can take from it and with Obama's wealth redistribution plan, it will only get worse.
 
2008-10-23 11:46:04 AM
Marathon runners are more likely to cheat in races than are Wal-Mart shoppers!
 
2008-10-23 11:46:05 AM
"Also, ground is moist where it rains"

Correlation is not causation subby.
 
2008-10-23 11:46:55 AM
pxsteel: Despite all the cheating and ominous tax code, the:

top 10% pay 70% of all taxes

top 50% pay 97% of all taxex

bottom 50% pay 3% of all taxes

Already looks pretty lopsided to me!! just saying


Yeah, but the to 10% sould be paying 200% and the top 50% should be paying 400% of all taxes. Anyone who has more than I do is rich and obviously stole the money from the porr people like me.
 
2008-10-23 11:48:06 AM
Ringtailed79: I don't care how many times I see it in print, until I see moist ground after a rain I'm not buying it.

HA!
 
2008-10-23 11:48:08 AM
DosFreak: "Also, ground is moist where it rains"

Correlation is not causation subby.


I know you are being sarcastic, but that is such a pet peeve of mine because people say it not having a farking clue as to what it means (not you, DosFreak, just in general). In fact, correlation is NECESSARY to demonstrate causality. If there is no correlation, there is no cause.

Like rain on your wedding day.
 
2008-10-23 11:48:48 AM
pxsteel: Despite all the cheating and ominous tax code, the:

top 10% pay 70% of all taxes

top 50% pay 97% of all taxex

bottom 50% pay 3% of all taxes

Already looks pretty lopsided to me!! just saying


That looks lopsided unless you mention that the top 10% earn about 80% of the money. Then it makes sense that that pay 70% of all taxes.
 
2008-10-23 11:49:23 AM
Hell, most of the rich cheat on their INVOICING, much less their taxes.

Just ask any home remodeling contractor or accounts payable supervisor.
 
2008-10-23 11:50:23 AM
pxsteel Quote 2008-10-23 11:40:20 AM
Despite all the cheating and ominous tax code, the:

top 10% pay 70% of all taxes

top 50% pay 97% of all taxex

bottom 50% pay 3% of all taxes

Already looks pretty lopsided to me!! just saying



Don't forget.....of that bottom 50% who pay very little, fully 1/3rd of those pay ZERO.

Obama is promising tax cuts for 95% of Americans. Obviously you cant get a " cut ' if you pay nothing to begin with so Obama will simply be creating a much larger pool of welfare recipients.
 
2008-10-23 11:51:13 AM
Just an observation, but isn't it sort of cheating if you pay nothing and get a refund anyway?

Simplify the tax code by raising revenue by some other means... sales tax, perhaps. The rich still pay more (sales tax on a $4,000,000 home sucks) but at least we'd eliminate some of the cheating.
 
2008-10-23 11:53:01 AM
what_now: The IRS code is written in a way that makes it UNNECESSARY to cheat on your taxes if your rich, because of the loopholes, write offs and other sundry nonsense.

If you own a business (I'm looking at you Joe the Plumber), you are basically given a free pass on your income taxes.

If you work for someone and get a W2, you are paying a much, much higher tax rate than someone with the same amount of real income who has a sched C.


LOL

/own business
/pay taxes
/fewer loopholes than you presume

free pass... lol
 
2008-10-23 11:54:05 AM
kabloink: That looks lopsided unless you mention that the top 10% earn about 80% of the money. Then it makes sense that that pay 70% of all taxes.

Really? So you think that success should have negative consequences? The "rich" not only pay more into the system, they pay a much higher percentage of their total income. If we're talking "fair", then:

a) everyone should pay a flat percentage (somewhat fair)
b) everyone should pay a flat amount (perfectly fair)
 
2008-10-23 11:54:08 AM
So, under Obama, the rich are going to have a couple more percentage points for their accountants to hide somewhere. So what are they complaining about?
 
2008-10-23 11:54:24 AM
libbynomore2: Property Taxes - Renters don't pay them. Everyone who owns property pays taxes. You should be happy to know that the tax is based on property value so fear not, the rich pay considerable more.

Renters do pay property tax. It's part of the money they pay monthly in rent. Unless you're thinking that the owner of the rental property decides to shoulder tax burden out of the kindness of his/her heart.
 
2008-10-23 11:56:03 AM
mstang1988: Who thinks it's because the poor make so little that they don't have to pay taxes so it would be impossible to cheat?

Thats what I'm talking about. Under Obama's plan, only the rich will cheat, because they will be the only ones paying.
 
2008-10-23 11:56:24 AM
McCain or Obama, it doesn't matter. Either way, there's definitely merit in becoming a shiftless, low income bum if someone else is going to have to foot the bill.
 
2008-10-23 11:58:52 AM
wylkyn: So, under Obama, the rich are going to have a couple more percentage points for their accountants to hide somewhere. So what are they complaining about?

Socialism sucking.

On the topic of presidential ball sucking, can someone explain McCain's taxing of health benefits thing? Does that mean we will be taxed the amount that the employer pays on our behalf for health insurance?
 
2008-10-23 12:00:26 PM
Shostie: libbynomore2: Property Taxes - Renters don't pay them. Everyone who owns property pays taxes. You should be happy to know that the tax is based on property value so fear not, the rich pay considerable more.

Renters do pay property tax. It's part of the money they pay monthly in rent. Unless you're thinking that the owner of the rental property decides to shoulder tax burden out of the kindness of his/her heart.


Ah, but that is built into the rent and spread across an entire property. It doesn't mean shiat with the whole "but the poor pay lots of taxes too, OMG" argument. I think you see the point and see how stupid your counterpoint is, so I'll give your troll only a 4/10.
 
2008-10-23 12:01:08 PM
tonesskin: Actually, I'd argue that few poor people pay property taxes (directly) because they are renting.

As if landlords don't include property tax in the rent price. Know any landlords that would happily rent to poor people at a loss if property taxes went up?

libbynomore2: FICA Taxes are Social Security - if you're expecting to collect, you should pay.

I don't dispute that; you just said, "Poor people don't pay shiat". Well, they do, so either correct yourself or STFU.

libbynomore2: Sales taxes - Again, the rich, who buy more things and more expensive items pay far more sales taxes than the middle class or poor. For example, the sales tax on a Benz can be as high as the sale price on a Taurus.

Is this an excuse or something? Of course that's going to happen with a flat tax. Your original point was that poor people don't pay taxes. Sales taxes are a large part of state budgets, and poor people do have to spend money on necessities besides (tax-exempt) food.

libbynomore2: Car Registration - here's another example of tiered payments. More expensive cars are far more expensive to register.

Actually it's state-to-state; some states have a flat tax, including "liberal" California. But wasn't your initial point that poor people don't pay taxes at all?

I know I can't convince you to drop the idiotic talking points, but please don't give anyone else the idea that poor people don't pay any taxes.
 
2008-10-23 12:01:28 PM
I'll say it again: the solution to white collar crime is to give federal judges the discretion of putting white collar criminals in the local state prison rather than in federal jail. As long as the penalty for cheating on your taxes or ripping off your stockholders is a few years making influential friends in a Club Fed, executive types will be tempted to take the chance. If the penalty is making a different kind of friend (the kind who wants you to be his girlfriend), these guys might be a little more circumspect.
 
2008-10-23 12:02:53 PM
tedbundee: McCain's website We now have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, making America a less attractive place for companies to do business.

Oh noes!


Here's the stupid thing about that: where the hell else are the companies going to go? Is Joe the Plumber going to move to Iceland? Is Sally the Accountant going to emmigrate to Slovakia?

It's a really, really stupid argument.
 
2008-10-23 12:04:43 PM
Sir_Lurksalot: what_now: The IRS code is written in a way that makes it UNNECESSARY to cheat on your taxes if your rich, because of the loopholes, write offs and other sundry nonsense.

If you own a business (I'm looking at you Joe the Plumber), you are basically given a free pass on your income taxes.

If you work for someone and get a W2, you are paying a much, much higher tax rate than someone with the same amount of real income who has a sched C.

LOL

/own business
/pay taxes
/fewer loopholes than you presume

free pass... lol


What kind? 1065, 1120s Sched C or E?
 
2008-10-23 12:04:53 PM
dragonchild: As if landlords don't include property tax in the rent price.

If you note the word DIRECTLY there, that was what it was referencing. I rent, and I understand that part of my rent is property taxes. That said, my rent is way farking cheaper than my friends' mortgages AND they pay property tax on top of that. My share of my landlord's property tax is negligible. Again, I think that you see the point and are now just arguing semantics. But I never made the argument that poor people don't pay property taxes, they just don't pay them directly.
 
2008-10-23 12:06:44 PM
So long as there are taxes people will cheat.

My family owns restaurants and also has some rental properties. Our waitstaff cheat on their taxes more than we do. Tipped employees, proportionally, cheat on more taxes than anybody else -- the have the means (cash in hand), motive (not paid much by employers), and opportunity (cash in hand, again). Incidentally, I hate the tipping culture and would rather pay them a fair wage and eschew tipping.

Sure if there is a deduction available, we'll take it. who wouldn't, and who doesn't want to keep more of their hard earned cash? But we do pay a darn fair choke to the government. Don't like it, of course, but I see the necessity. I just wish congress would stop spending my money on shiat it's not supposed to fund(pork). Maybe if they focused on Article I sec. 8 (esp. the General Welfare clause) we wouldn't be so bitter about paying taxes which go to paying for statues of Vulcan, wooden arrows or bridges to nowhere. Nah, nobody likes giving money to other people!

But I digress...
 
2008-10-23 12:08:51 PM
Or instead of a flat tax, have a net worth tax. Since there is little room to cheat on W-2s, we just need to increase reporting requirements to IRS.

The only deductions would be money placed in a retirement account with penalties for early withdrawal.

The incentive will be to spend $$ which will help our consumer culture. The poor can spend on goods. The rich can spend on their own past times whether it be goods, creating companies, job creation, charity.
 
2008-10-23 12:09:59 PM
The problem isn't taxes..it's spending. the entire government is set up with a "use it or lose it" mentality.

Look at the money being spent for pork barrels, for redundant programs, contracts, etc...

The problem isn't that Barack is asking for another couple percent from people who can afford it...it's that a year from now...all that money will be spent; gone forever, and then the government is going to say "well, sh*t...we still need to fund all these programs..but there is no more money."

I will support an increase in taxes when atleast EACH AND EVERY STEP IS TAKEN BY WASHINGTON.

1. term limits on everyone from all branches of government... senate, house, president, supreme court, ass well as head of departments (FBI, CIA, EPA, Homeland security.... etc)
2. every politicians takes is paid a nominal fee to cover expenses incurred while in office regardless of tenure or what they currently make.
3. all pork projects are terminated immediately.
4. a complete audit of the budget from top to bottom multiple an independent third parties
5. a 20% reduction in spending by 2010(it's a called a budget for a reason, starting budgeting money...)
6. any politician who misses 5% of work, votes, committee meetings etc for any reason is immediately terminated no questions asked.
7. The US will enact a financial plan to actually begin paying off the national debt (without raising taxes, raiding trust funds, or sticking it to corporations..see #s 3,4, and 5)
 
2008-10-23 12:10:13 PM
Sabalo: b) everyone should pay a flat amount (perfectly fair)

And naive to the point of being retarded. Unless you expect the country to run on a yearly budget of a few billion dollars (assuming we find a magical number that everyone can afford).

A flat tax makes a little more sense, but it doesn't take into account the fact that 10% of the income of someone making $10,000 means cutting into necessities, whereas 10% of someone making $250,000 means delaying recarpeting the summer house.

When you say "fair" you mean something completely different from what someone who can't pay for their heat in the winter would think of as fair. Fair is a subjective term, and really only exists in fairy tales.
 
2008-10-23 12:10:48 PM
JudgeReinhold: Or instead of a flat tax, have a net worth tax...
The incentive will be to spend $$ which will help our consumer culture. The poor can spend on goods. The rich can spend on their own past times whether it be goods, creating companies, job creation, charity.


No offense dude, but that's the worst tax idea I've heard in a long time. If I save money...should I be taxed on the same savings every single year?
 
2008-10-23 12:16:12 PM
JudgeReinhold: Or instead of a flat tax, have a net worth tax. Since there is little room to cheat on W-2s, we just need to increase reporting requirements to IRS.

The only deductions would be money placed in a retirement account with penalties for early withdrawal.

The incentive will be to spend $$ which will help our consumer culture. The poor can spend on goods. The rich can spend on their own past times whether it be goods, creating companies, job creation, charity.


Please tell me that you're joking. If not, just try thinking your idea through trying to start a business, or consider that material goods generally fall into net worth.
 
2008-10-23 12:17:21 PM
tonesskin: But I never made the argument that poor people don't pay property taxes, they just don't pay them directly.

Well, that's fine; I think we agree here. But when you mindlessly spew a really stupid and thoroughly discredited talking point like "poor people don't pay any taxes", expect me to hit back HARD.

I've been poor, and I know people who are poor. As I mentioned downpost, some of the worst people on the planet are poor. But there are also plenty of honest, hardworking people who can't get a break because of assholes who too readily believe media sound bites from people who have it all and want to keep us down.

We payed our damn taxes, so STFU. Not all poor people are Welfare Queens, and ironically the more honest you are, the harder it is to move up because there are always so many people in your circle who need help. Just when one of us manages to get a decent job, another still living in slums gets hit by a car and sacked with medical bills. I get a bonus but then my sister's car breaks down. We could move up if we abandoned our friends and family but we're not assholes. Part of the reason why it took me so long to get up to middle class is because I paid my debts, paid my damn taxes and helped my family through their own poverty. FARK YOU for making that hell look like paradise, you asshole.

One more time, to pound it into your goddamn head: WE ALL PAID OUR DAMN TAXES SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH YOU ASSHOLE. And don't treat me like a farking exception because I had no shortage of honest friends. Being poor doesn't mean you're a farking leech.

I am sick of hearing mindless blanket statements about a world so full of misery that most people are blissfully ignorant of just how messed up poverty is in how it keeps its own people down. SHUT THE FARK UP about people you know nothing about.

Thank you.
 
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