EmperorTippy: GAT_00: It still was the intentional burning to the bedrock of a town with little to no military value.Good. The worst thing to ever happen to war was the belief that there are any civilians. If a nation goes to war every square inch of that nation is a valid military target. War is hell and all of that. If you don't want your home fire bombed then change your government.
ctobio: You couldn't just drop a JDAM on a GPS coordinate and blow up an enemy's commander in his house, or blow up his factory. In order to destroy a factory in a city, you had to mass hundreds of bombers and destroy the city.
Norad: Yeah, most war stories are 10% truth and 90% bull-farking-shiat.
NewportBarGuy: Norad: Did you think that up while your parents pay for your college education?No, you pay for my college education. It's called the GI Bill.Thanks, sunshine!
No Such Agency: A bunch of scruffy but lovable GI's robbing a bank behind German lines?
GAT_00: It still was the retaliation for the intentional burning to the bedrock of Coventry, a town with little to no military value.
ctobio: Blompkin: We can tell it was only 18,000 killed because of death certificates. That's because during the end days of a war, the highest priority is always carefully recording every death that occurs. It isn't like there'd be a lot of random undocumented civilians running around. Not during a war.You underestimate the anal retentiveness of Germans. Of all the people on this planet, the Germans are the most likely to stop in the middle of the war and create a paper trail for all their dead.I knew an old timer who fought in the 82nd Airborne in WW2. It amazed them that when he got to Germany, a town would be shelled, buildings blown up, and no sooner than the fighting stopped the Germans would gather all the rubble in nice neat piles and try their best to clean the place up.
Dubai Vol: Retroactive moralizing is the real bullshiat here. Nobody complains about the German bombings of London, Coventry, etc, now do they? Or how about the original, the Japanese bombings of cities in China? Who decries that?No, everyone points fingers at Dresden, when all sides used the same tactics for the same reasons. The reasoning was that bombing cities would destroy the will of the people to fight. All sides acribed to the theory and bombed civilians for that specific purpose.To go back generations later and call this specific raid some kind of exceptional horror is asinine.
snow9999: Like many people point out here, the Nazis kept great records, so it is well documented.
Dubai Vol: Retroactive moralizing is the real bullshiat here. Nobody complains about the German bombings of London, Coventry, etc, now do they? Or how about the original, the Japanese bombings of cities in China? Who decries that?
Arkcon: So fire bombing Dresden wasn't as bad as they say? Great. That makes the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that much worse. Yay. We win again. Oh, wait ...
grimnir: Dubai Vol: Retroactive moralizing is the real bullshiat here. Nobody complains about the German bombings of London, Coventry, etc, now do they? Or how about the original, the Japanese bombings of cities in China? Who decries that?Everybody.
snow9999: My mother was in Dresden when it was bombed. She describes the people sitting in the park dead beacuse the concussions destroyed their insides. She described how the fire bombs left the nicest colors on the walls. She described the bodies stacked in piles.It is easy to play revisionist history, it was a horrible two days for anybody that was there.
CygnusDarius: /Thanks again, Vern!
Tellurianix: As someone who is married to a Polish woman whose grandparents were killed by the Germans, I couldn't give the slightest shiat how many Germans died in the bombings. Cry me a goddamn river.
Dee Snarl: Three people, I think, have referred to Slaughterhouse Five's refrain as "And so it goes." That's not it; it's simply "So it goes."
Witchydiva: What the hell kind of drama queen thinks a carpet bombing resulting in a 3632-degree (Fahrenheit) firestorm, and 18,000-25,000 people dying isn't "dramatic"? Fark subby who thinks 18,000 people dying in one raid isn't dramatic
Petrograd: In any case, the death and destruction remains one of the true tragedies of the war.
goodbomb: I thought the whole point about Dresden is that it wasn't a military target. ie no factories. JUST civilians. do i have it wrong?
stucka: My biggest "Allied war crime" debate is with Nagasaki, on the simple principle that a nation completely unwilling to accept defeat, with a military ruler as its God, can change to unconditional surrender in such a short period of time. I understand why Nagasaki was bombed, but I sure wish Truman and LeMay let another week pass. =(
ctobio: There were valid military targets in and around the city. Now, you can lump in the civilian populace in that number. In the morality of WW2, there were no such thing as non-combatants, because of total mobilization everyone was part of the war effort, from the farmer growing wheat to feed the soldiers, to the seamstresses making uniforms to the troops, to the slave workers building V2 rockets for the Reich. Humans were war materiel if they were able to contribute to the war effort. That was the morality of the war then. I'd like to think we're a little more civilized today, but in the context of the time, this was acceptable. The allies couldn't call the Germans on this either... when Karl Doenitz was tried for crimes against humanity at Nuremberg for waging unrestricted submarine warfare, Nimitz came to his defense, for the Allies did the same in the Pacific theater.
stucka: I get -really- annoyed when people talk "only" about six million Jewish people dead in the Holocaust and ignore the other six million murdered because they were considered subhuman, or completely ignore the eighteen to twenty-four million Stalin murdered because they were his countrymen. The figures baffle the mind and make it hard to keep any perspective. The whole war was a tragedy.
Witchydiva: I'm curious - and not trying to snark or troll here - as american civilians who pay taxes that fund the "war on terror", does that make the entire tax-paying population eligible targets? I do understand that times are completely different, but I'm curious as to how far the logic goes.
EmperorTippy: That kind of shock can cause massive changes, and it also argues against the emperors divine right to rule.
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