as a christian...i abhore violence.

-as an american citizen...i abhore organized christianity.

/ready for ufop...dammit!

one land...no king.

-no christians.

-no muslims

-no jews.

only starships, warp drives and plasma conduits.

we have no clue about shiat, seriously.

i pray for the peace of israel, however illegal it is, however.

Duke_leto_Atredes: "I am waiting for an armed women to bust a cap in some hasids @$$ the best cure for this shiat is for the victims to shoot back, but only in the balls"

I respectfully disagree. Historically violent action has not been effective in advancing tolerance of women's rights, gay rights or anything along those lines. The way things change is when it gets too close to home for those resisting it; The women's suffrage movement was effective in large part because those women were by and large the wives of the sort of men who might otherwise oppose giving women the vote. It's easy to hate a group or person you don't know, but what happens when it's someone you love? Just look at how the hard line stances of certain politicians have softened when they discovered their son/daughter was gay.

That's what effects social change. The oppressed group must appeal to those who love them, express openly that they are suffering, and refuse to be silenced or pacified. Perhaps many will close their hearts to their wives, their sons, their daughters and put their religious principles first. But doubtless many, faced with the suffering of a loved one, will soften their stance. Provided that, everything else follows.

The 14th century just called. They want their moral philosophy back.

The real problem here is not what they are doing but the fact that EVERYONE just steps aside, waits until they are done and then do what they are told to do by these people.

The cops will not arrest them, and the Rabbis who think it is wrong do not say it is.

I'm all for giving them a little leeway in "their" part of town, but they step one foot into the secular world and try any of this and they should be facing jail time, fines.

Leeway btwy: does NOT mean kidnapping,nor does it mean stoning.
To enforce this and to make sure that they do not get a tourist hurt
(woman wearing a red sweater? how strange can that be) post signs in multiple languages, as well as a guard outside to let them know not to go in.

It would be interesting to see how fast their attitude will change once they get no tourists shopping or even regular Israelis visiting/buying things

TheCrimsonKing: "What are some of these extrapolitical organizations? I'd like to look into them."

SCA the biggest and influential of them. Here are some other big players:

American Atheists

Freedom from Religion Foundation

Smaller grassroots organizations like Campaign to Defend the Constitution no longer operate, as they are being swallowed up by the larger groups in an effort to consolidate and pool resources. With any luck there will soon be something like a unified movement for secular government, and with the help of the atheist lobby they could even one day constitute a political party, one with enough public support to credibly field a presidential candidate.

(Whether they should get more directly involved with politics or not is another discussion entirely)

zambora,

Thanks, I'll have a look at those, tomorrow. Gotta go now. Night night!

Join the Church of the SubGenius.

We put the fun back in fundamentalism.

And the duh.

And the mental...

SherKhan: Ultra-orthodox is just a fancy way of saying fundamentalist primitive.

I lol'd.

Yet another Fark-Lefty Trend:
Rip on Jews.

/bored.

Polyhazard: Miss Smartass: So having a vag is a bad thing?

Miss, are you asking us, or the fundamentalists?

And no, they do not think having a vag is a bad thing. They believe that the female body is attractive, appealing, and distracting to men, and that to display it in public is a bad thing.

And that is only one of many reasons why they are utterly retarded.

ssrat: The real problem here is not what they are doing but the fact that EVERYONE just steps aside, waits until they are done and then do what they are told to do by these people.

The cops will not arrest them, and the Rabbis who think it is wrong do not say it is.

I'm all for giving them a little leeway in "their" part of town, but they step one foot into the secular world and try any of this and they should be facing jail time, fines.

Leeway btwy: does NOT mean kidnapping,nor does it mean stoning.
To enforce this and to make sure that they do not get a tourist hurt
(woman wearing a red sweater? how strange can that be) post signs in multiple languages, as well as a guard outside to let them know not to go in.

It would be interesting to see how fast their attitude will change once they get no tourists shopping or even regular Israelis visiting/buying things

What you have to keep in mind is that many of the people they're harassing are part of the same societal milieu as they are. They want to be accepted, so they listen. Even if they don't agree or are rebelling against the system, they don't want the "modesty police" to bother their families or ruin the family's reputation in the community, so much of this never gets reported. When the "modesty police" bothers those outside their own society, the police are usually informed. (See Shear, Miriam).

There are signs posted in Hebrew and English, but they're usually unnecessary as any outsider is obvious from more than the color of their sweater.

All I'll say is this - I'll be glad when the Zombie War starts.

/obscure?

Matthias: Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Jehovah".
[Everyone gasps]
Jewish Official: You're only making it worse for yourself!
Matthias: Making it worse? How can it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
Jewish Official: I'm warning you! If you say "Jehovah" one more time (gets hit with rock) RIGHT! Who did that? Come on, who did it?
Stoners: She did! She did! (suddenly speaking as men) He! He did! He!
Jewish Official: Was it you?
Stoner: Yes.
Jewish Official: Right...
Stoner: Well you did say "Jehovah. "
[Crowd throws rocks at the stoner]
Jewish Official: STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah. "
[Crowd stones the Jewish Official to death]

Jesus Christ, 50 years in the sand and now they've gone batshiat crazy too.

Stay out of the desert, folks!

The Duke of Carrot Flowers: jogiff: Seriously, why am I still surprised to see Israel held to a double standard.

Let met guess...Anti-semitism, is that it?

/You'll get over it
//Well, someday
///I hope, for humanity's sake.

Let's see, did I say it was Antisemitism? No? I wonder why you instantly assumed that that was what I was saying? Guilty conscience?

jshine: jogiff:Seriously, why am I still surprised to see Israel held to a double standard.

This happens with every country. A few terrorists bomb a bus in some mid-east country: they're all terrorists.

...and don't you think that Fred Phelps & his lot inspire quite a few "Americans are dumb" comments abroad?

Actually, it seems that only Middle Eastern nations and the US get judged by a few fanatics. No one seems to be claiming India is a Theocracy, even though their population seems to be more intolerant of minorities than most Muslim states. I don't know why, but if you're an Arab country, a Israel, Iran, or the US, you're automatically a Theocracy.

When I read the headline I thought they were torching random stores using flamethrowers that have internet access.... I was disappointed to find out the stores had the internet access and not the torching devices :(

Persepolis: Kinda like you and Iran..

Doesn't stop you from posting about what life over there is like.

Care to give me an example ?

shroomtex: No Government Condemnation or Protection = Tacit Approval

No case = nothing the law can do. Basically this happens in a tiny community of ultra-orthodox jews where they like to keep to themselves. When the bus thing was published (by some woman from the US i think,not by one of the locals because they don't give a shiat) members of the government did condemn this behavior but they, like myself, know that you basically can do nothing about it unless the community themselves have a problem with this.

Why doesn't the population use them for personal protection? This wouldn't happen in Texas

Maybe because the ultra-orthodox community in Jerusalem isn't Texas ?

TheBigJerk: False analogy Nogale, the morality police are to the Haredi as the Texas Polygamy cult is to the entire FLDS, which is a pretty accurate example really.

Danielsan, the stuff that the Haredi believe and that is causing these "morality police" was true for pretty much all the sects of Jewry throughout history. I am aware of the fact that they argued and debated their holy books (which weren't even books half the time, but let's not get into how oral histories were supposed to MAGICALLY stay coherent and accurate over 3 millenia) since shortly after their creation.


You're just plain wrong. You're looking at Judaism through a Christian lens. What the Heredim think is NOT what was believed throughout Jewish history. That was the whole point of my post, and I gave you examples. Choose to ignore it if you must.

Danielsan: TheBigJerk: False analogy Nogale, the morality police are to the Haredi as the Texas Polygamy cult is to the entire FLDS, which is a pretty accurate example really.

Danielsan, the stuff that the Haredi believe and that is causing these "morality police" was true for pretty much all the sects of Jewry throughout history. I am aware of the fact that they argued and debated their holy books (which weren't even books half the time, but let's not get into how oral histories were supposed to MAGICALLY stay coherent and accurate over 3 millenia) since shortly after their creation.


You're just plain wrong. You're looking at Judaism through a Christian lens. What the Heredim think is NOT what was believed throughout Jewish history. That was the whole point of my post, and I gave you examples. Choose to ignore it if you must.

One: it's not a "christian lens"

Two: No you didn't give ANY examples. In fact you did not even refute my explanation. I'd be happy to hear these "examples of the Haredim's morality and shiat being totally different."

It's not that hard, Christianity has had many, many sects, but the different sects had a number of repressive and ricockulous things that they all shared back in the day and of those things quite a number are now condemned by "moderates" and "liberals" while still held by the "fundies."

But I get the impression you are one of those "true believers" who thinks that "the one TRUE religion" cannot mutate.

TappingTheVein: Care to give me an example ?

Like how from before you said you think that honor killings are a "common occurrence" in Iran, or from this thread where no was was talking about Iran and you implied religious police stone immodestly dressed women with the approval of the government. (Which isn't true. You can't get stoned for that)

Look, I understand your position and your hatred. It makes me sad that it blinds you to the point where you can stretch truths and make it your goal to paint any and all muslim countries (and the people in them) as the ultimate evil.

I have cousins that are the same way regarding the west, and it pisses me off because it's these kind of people on both sides that are keeping the situation as it is.

Israel would be so much better if it weren't for the religious Jews.

Persepolis: Like how from before you said you think that honor killings are a "common occurrence" in Iran

Common ? maybe more than any other non islamic (or arab, yes i know they are not arabs) society.
When 45 women are murdered in "honor-killings" in a two-month perdiod in Tehran in a single province i'd say it's not that rare. And this is the reported number, the actual real one is probably higher.

or from this thread where no was was talking about Iran and you implied religious police stone immodestly dressed women with the approval of the government

Where exactly did i say that ? implied ? i'm quite aware of stoning in Iran so can you please provide proof ?

Look, I understand your position and your hatred. It makes me sad that it blinds you to the point where you can stretch truths and make it your goal to paint any and all muslim countries (and the people in them) as the ultimate evil.

Again, where exactly have i said anything like this ?! i am well aware of the situation in arab countries (and Iran). I'm aware that in Iran the majority of the population are not very fond of the mullahs. Do you recall where i said that i'm against any attack on Iran or that part you've missed ?

I have cousins that are the same way regarding the west, and it pisses me off because it's these kind of people on both sides that are keeping the situation as it is.

Educate your cousins but don't claim things about me which aren't true.

TappingTheVein: When 45 women are murdered in "honor-killings" in a two-month perdiod in Tehran in a single province i

Tehran is not is Khuzestan province. Khuzestan is like what appalachia is to America. If you think it's an example of what's Iran is like, or what day to day life is like in Iran, then my point stands. It's a disgusting thing, no doubt. This is something these backwards country hicks do. Not the average Iranaian. However, you consistently paint these tragic, extreme, news stories that come out of the WORST part of a country as the norm for the country, and that's dishonest.

TappingTheVein: Where exactly did i say that ? implied ?

This is what was said.

TappingTheVein: 2. What they are doing is against the law, this is not sanctioned by the state (like in Iran for example).

The headline, which is what you're referring to:

Gangs of "religious Police" roam the street stoning immodestly dressed women and torching stores with internet capabale devices.

This is incorrect. You can't get stoned for dressing immodestly in Iran, and I'm not aware of the religious police torching stores with internet capable devices. (Also, no one was talking about Iran until you brought it up. Again, stretching the truth)

TappingTheVein: Again, where exactly have i said anything like this

And again, You can't get stoned for dressing immodestly in Iran, and I'm not aware of the religious police torching stores with internet capable devices, like you said.

TappingTheVein: i am well aware of the situation in arab countries (and Iran).

Also, your ease of grouping Iran and arab countries (as I have ALWAYS seen you do, never drawing the vast distinctions) also support my claim that you don't have a solid understanding of what life in Iran is like.

TappingTheVein: Do you recall where i said that i'm against any attack on Iran or that part you've missed ?

I don't really follow. I've never seen you say you support an attack on Iran if that's what you're asking.

TappingTheVein: Educate your cousins but don't claim things about me which aren't true.

I try. God knows I try. At times I reach the same levels of frustration that I do dealing with people on Fark who have their preconceived, false notions of what life is like in Iran too.

What did I claim about you that's not true? I've said you don't have a solid concept of what day to day life is like for the average Iranian. Judging by your comments, your penchant for grouping Iran and Arabic countries so easily, and your attempt to post stories that occurred in ethnic-arab, rural areas in Iran and claim they took place in Tehran leads me to think I'm not too far off the mark.

Yeah, when I was in Israel on a trip with Jewish youth back in January, I was entertaining a bunch of young ultra-orthodox kids in Beit Shemesh in the street (they would mime shooting me with a gun and I'd make exaggerated falls to the ground to make the kids laugh). They were having a blast (about 4-5 kids) until a bunch of ultra-orthodox mothers came out to watch and began to murmur amongst themselves, apparently uncomfortable that their kids were playing with a secular American 18 year old (at the time) punk like me. They prolly would've called their husbands over or something had another mother not come over and said something along the lines of "I think he's nice. The children are enjoying it."

Still, these people look at anyone who isn't wearing a kippah, tzitzit, and the black attire as a goyim or a Jew who has turned his/her back on Judaism.

//Atheist
///Pro-Peace
////Had to pretend I was a Conservative Jewish Zionist (think Jewish Defense League) while I stayed there.

TheBigJerk

But I get the impression you are one of those "true believers" who thinks that "the one TRUE religion" cannot mutate.

Just the opposite. The religion has mutated considerably, as any Jew with any kind of knowledge of history knows. There was one huge mutation after the destruction of the second temple, a second when it became clear that the oral law had to be written down to survive the diaspora. This was by necessity - you can't center your religious observance around temple sacrifices when there is no temple. You can't time your religious observances around natural events in the land of Israel when you don't live there.

The "xtian lens" is one that places belief and the notion of "sin" before actions. Judaism isn't about confessing, professing, or wit-nessing. It's about doing. Saying this, wearing that, not eating that, having sex only now, avoiding climbing these steps, walking only on that side of the street... etc.

The Haredi have made a major change in their action. Imagine if it were a mortal sin to stick your pinky in your ear, so a large fundamentalist sect of xtians had decided to all have their pinkies removed. That's these folks.

Persepolis: Tehran is not is Khuzestan province. Khuzestan is like what appalachia is to America. If you think it's an example of what's Iran is like, or what day to day life is like in Iran, then my point stands.

This is the first article iv'e seen about honor-killings in Iran in a google search. Iv'e read the first sentence (starting with Tehran) which made me think it was in Tehran However this area is in Iran. Honor killings happen in Iran and in other muslim (and arab) countries more than the rest if you like it or not. My point still stands.

This is incorrect. You can't get stoned for dressing immodestly in Iran, and I'm not aware of the religious police torching stores with internet capable devices. (Also, no one was talking about Iran until you brought it up. Again, stretching the truth)

What i said was that their behavior isn't sanctioned by the state and by their behavior i was referring to vandalism/violence (read the article) in general. Go stand in a Tehran center square and make a speech about freedom of speech. My bet is that the local revolutionary guard (which are sanctioned by the state) will have a word with you.

If you thought that i implied something else then think again but don't put words in my mouth.

And again, You can't get stoned for dressing immodestly in Iran, and I'm not aware of the religious police torching stores with internet capable devices, like you said.

I never said it. You thought wrong.

Also, your ease of grouping Iran and arab countries (as I have ALWAYS seen you do, never drawing the vast distinctions) also support my claim that you don't have a solid understanding of what life in Iran is like.

Because arabaised Iran is a far cry from their former persian selves and they are similar in many aspects to other islamic (and arab) states.

I don't really follow. I've never seen you say you support an attack on Iran if that's what you're asking.

Good.

What did I claim about you that's not true? I've said you don't have a solid concept of what day to day life is like for the average Iranian. Judging by your comments, your penchant for grouping Iran and Arabic countries so easily, and your attempt to post stories that occurred in ethnic-arab, rural areas in Iran and claim they took place in Tehran leads me to think I'm not too far off the mark

I group Iran with arab countries because they are similar to them. Fundamentalist Islam does that.
What i claimed was about Iran in general, i took the first example iv'e seen and from the first sentence i thought it was Tehran. Naturally it was in an ethnic-arab rural area, it's a mostly arab custom. I believe Tehran has a few ethnic-arabs as well.

TappingTheVein: Because arabaised Iran

There you have it.

I rest my case.

/And people who don't know anything about Israel speak out like they do too. I agree with you there.

TappingTheVein: Because arabaised Iran is a far cry from their former persian selves and they are similar in many aspects to other islamic (and arab) states.

A lack of understanding of the idea of nuance is what is wrong with this country.

/Generalizing like that makes you look dumb, dude.
//Just FYI

Persepolis: There you have it.

I rest my case.

Rest your case as much as you like. Still won't change the fact that Iran is similar to other islamic countries who happen to be arab.

I assume you are not fond of that fact.

Darth Otter: /Generalizing like that makes you look dumb, dude.
//Just FYI

Generalizing ? so Iran is not run by islamic fundamentalists ? they do not seem to share aspects of the lovable arab mentality ?

I must admit that their manufactured brand of rabid antisemitism is far more entertaining that, for example, Saudi-Arabia.

TappingTheVein: I assume you are not fond of that fact.

Of course not. I don't think many Iranians are.

I am proud of the fact that I believe Iran to have more differences with their neighbors than similarities.

I assume see you rarely mention that.

Persepolis: I assume see you rarely mention that.

The country is run by islamic fundamentalists.
Their government controls and supports terrorist organizations.
But they speak Farsi so they got that going for them. Which is nice.

TappingTheVein: Persepolis: I assume see you rarely mention that.

The country is run by islamic fundamentalists.
Their government controls and supports terrorist organizations.
But they speak Farsi so they got that going for them. Which is nice.

Also, they have their own holidays, own calendar, own culture and practices, own weddings, own social systems, own history, etc.

More importantly in my mind: A more educated population than their neighbors. A more pro-west population than their neighbors. A more secular population than their neighbors. (And in my opinion, a political system with a greater possibility of internal reform than their neighbors.)

Persepolis: Also, they have their own holidays, own calendar, own culture and practices, own weddings, own social systems, own history, etc.

More importantly in my mind: A more educated population than their neighbors. A more pro-west population than their neighbors. A more secular population than their neighbors. (And in my opinion, a political system with a greater possibility of internal reform than their neighbors.)

That's great but these facts kinda overshadows that:
The country is run by islamic fundamentalists.
Their government controls and supports terrorist organizations.

TappingTheVein: The country is run by islamic fundamentalists.
Their government controls and supports terrorist organizations.

I can't disagree with that. Those are absolute facts, and they are horrible.

That's why it's so important to me to isolate the cancer in Iranian society (Theocratic system) to make it easier to deal with the problem than grouping in everyone under that system and abandoning the only real weapon we have against the mullahs. (The Iranian people themselves).

(D) All of the above.

torched a store that sells MP4 players, fearing devout Jews would use them to download pornography.

MP3 Players are ok, so are mpeg's and flash video, and quicktime.mov formats.

-Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Community

Did anyone else see Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden ? For Jews, they make pretty good fascists. (new window)

mikesum32: Did anyone else see Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden ? For Jews, they make pretty good fascists. (new window)

He went to an ultra-orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem, just like the one in the article, and he is surprised they act like backward asshats ?

I would kick the guy pushing him myself if i was there.

Galileo's Daughter: jshine:
And how many atheist/agnostic charities can you name?

Amnesty International Bigot. Gtfo.