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(Some Guy)   What's a law degree worth? $470,000 (less, if you factor in the cost of spending eternity in Hell)   (taxprof.typepad.com) divider line 305
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10031 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Sep 2008 at 12:08 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-09-27 01:09:52 PM
nashBridges: He probably chastises people for people who vote with their pocketbook, which is an argument I've never understood. EVERYBODY votes with their pocketbook. No one votes for someone thinking they will be worse off after the election.

Exactly, I agree with that. The difference is simply a disagreement of what "worse off" is. I think people who run around chasing money are worse off as human beings than I am. That's not a troll, I honestly believe that. People who make more than about 30K are simply bad people; evil.
 
2008-09-27 01:11:06 PM
Law school blows, we work so hard to maybe get to the middle of our class and then we are left with either injury law or starting our own firms, or doing public defense because nobody will hire you unless you are at the top....

/angry cause its my birthday and i'm working on a legal memo due monday
 
2008-09-27 01:13:49 PM
worlddan: nashBridges: He probably chastises people for people who vote with their pocketbook, which is an argument I've never understood. EVERYBODY votes with their pocketbook. No one votes for someone thinking they will be worse off after the election.

Exactly, I agree with that. The difference is simply a disagreement of what "worse off" is. I think people who run around chasing money are worse off as human beings than I am. That's not a troll, I honestly believe that. People who make more than about 30K are simply bad people; evil.


Srsly? 0/10
 
2008-09-27 01:13:55 PM
I think people who run around chasing money are worse off as human beings than I am. That's not a troll, I honestly believe that. People who make more than about 30K are simply bad people; evil.

What about people who work 3 days a week and make a shiatload of money and thus aren't "chasing" it?
 
2008-09-27 01:13:59 PM
DamnYankees: Yeah. Lawyers aren't a requirement in a system based on law or anything like that.

They shouldn't be.
 
2008-09-27 01:15:17 PM
worlddan:
Frankly, if you are getting a advanced degree for the money, you should be shot on sight. It's exactly this "money money money" attitude that got us into the economic mess we are in.


Do you think most people get a college degree in order to get a decent employment, or do you think they spend 4 years of their time and money expecting it to "make themselves a better person" and nothing more?

In in the case of law schools, that's 3 more years of your life and $150K more of your money, on top of 4 year college.

So I just want to make sure I got you right. Someone who spent 7 years in school, owes $150K+ of non dischargeable student debt, should be shot on sight if he expected that investment to improve his employment prospects?
 
2008-09-27 01:16:19 PM
worlddan: it's a question of values........"Better" is not measured in material goods, it's measured in intangibles; in spirit, in soul, in character. Those are the things that matter to me personally, and in a decent society those are the things that matter to most people.


Funny how you say things like this and then believe that anyone who does actually work for money "should be shot on sight."

You have severe "issues".
 
2008-09-27 01:16:28 PM
RadioactiveApe: So I just want to make sure I got you right. Someone who spent 7 years in school, owes $150K+ of non dischargeable student debt, should be shot on sight if he expected that investment to improve his employment prospects?

YES

MNguy:
Srsly? 0/10

Yes
 
2008-09-27 01:16:56 PM
DamnYankees: Lawyers aren't a requirement in a system based on law or anything like that.

Yeah!!! What the fark, dustman81?!? Why would you even TRY to say something humorous on this, an intellectual discussion forum about news events? Why I ask you? Do you enjoy being ridiculed by your intellectual superiors?

/Sarcasm- "The thread equalizer(tm)"
 
2008-09-27 01:17:03 PM
Phil Herup: You have severe "issues".

Sorry, childless. No issues here.
 
2008-09-27 01:18:44 PM
worlddan: Phil Herup: You have severe "issues".

Sorry, childless. No issues here.


Dude, the manager at Taco Bell makes 30k a year
 
2008-09-27 01:18:57 PM
Studson: we work so hard

You're doing it wrong.

I agree with people saying that a system of law shouldn't require experts for simple issues. In many cases, you just learn how to file the proper papers in the proper order because if you don't you will get farked. This is one reason I would never practice law. I'm not organized enough. Plus, I'd get really, really bored. Though there are many awesome fields (e.g., entertainment law,IP law, etc.) that I would do if I were ever bored.

The days of using logic and "law" to argue and win your point are way over, though (in most areas).
 
2008-09-27 01:19:49 PM
MNguy: worlddan: Phil Herup: You have severe "issues".

Sorry, childless. No issues here.

Dude, the manager at Taco Bell makes 30k a year


And most people on the planet live on less than 1K a year. What's your point?
 
2008-09-27 01:22:06 PM
dervish16108: Thomas

unless God is Anglican...
 
2008-09-27 01:22:18 PM
worlddan: People who make more than about 30K are simply bad people; evil.

Who are you pretending to be? St. Francis of Assisi?

A 7-11 manager makes more than 30K a year.
 
2008-09-27 01:22:52 PM
worlddan: And most people on the planet live on less than 1K a year. What's your point?

That some people like money. It's great to have, actually. It is the only reason I went to get an advanced degree, though I also enjoy what I do. Thing is, when one has financial security there are tons of opportunities to achieve personal fulfillment without compromising principle for money. In fact, without money I would never have seen the things I have seen on travels. Or experienced the food. Or been able to work in some of the places I've worked.

But yeah, I like money, like living below my means, and feel fulfilled. You don't need money for that? Good for you! Who the fark gives a shiat, though?
 
2008-09-27 01:23:50 PM
worlddan: And most people on the planet live on less than 1K a year. What's your point?

Most people on the planet also die during natural disasters. I'm not sure your way is better.
 
2008-09-27 01:25:39 PM
worlddan: The real tragedy here is that it implicitly assumes the reason most people are in law school (or any graduate school) is the money. When I was getting my masters they used to preach stats like this all the time. It's actually a retention strategy designed to keep educational instructions full. "OMG, don't drop out. You are gonna be RICH!!!! (soto voice: one day)".

Frankly, if you are getting a advanced degree for the money, you should be shot on sight. It's exactly this "money money money" attitude that got us into the economic mess we are in.


True that. I know I went to graduate school because I didn't want to get a job. Plus I couldn't find I job I actually wanted. No I have one of those high paying jobs, and at least my grad degree justifies my salary. It has little other purpose where I work for the job I do. Now I'm just saying up for a Ph.D. so I can get a professorship. There's two ways to be rich: 1) earn more 2) want less.

Let see for myself: Precollege $16k/yr, post $100k/yr and climbing, so I would only have to work for 6 years for my degree to be "worth" more than a law degree. The true worth is immeasurable, since I enjoy my field of study much more than law.

/If you're not studying what you like in college, you're doing it wrong.
 
2008-09-27 01:25:55 PM
tonesskin: Studson: we work so hard

You're doing it wrong.

I agree with people saying that a system of law shouldn't require experts for simple issues. In many cases, you just learn how to file the proper papers in the proper order because if you don't you will get farked. This is one reason I would never practice law. I'm not organized enough. Plus, I'd get really, really bored. Though there are many awesome fields (e.g., entertainment law,IP law, etc.) that I would do if I were ever bored.

The days of using logic and "law" to argue and win your point are way over, though (in most areas).


you obviously don't know law
 
2008-09-27 01:26:14 PM
trancemission: Very misleading. The graduates in the top 10% of their class make ridiculous salaries (especially those from top tier schools), while the rest fight over the scraps and really don't make nearly as much as lay people imagine a lawyer makes. It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

No it isn't. That would affect the mean salary (average). The median, by definition, means 50% of people are higher, 50% are lower. This isn't related to the magnitude of the numbers used whereas the mean is.
 
2008-09-27 01:26:19 PM
Its not the Lawyers per se that people hate. Its the rate that they charge, and the fact that even if you DO get the reparations you deserve somehow the lawyer deserves 50% of it.

Its like going to court for a 50,000 incident. And after its all said and done, you'll get only $25,000 worth after the lawyer gets their cut. Yes they deserve to make a living, but their rates are often preposterous. It reminds me of some letter I received from my credit card company. Some lawyers decided to sue them in some class action lawsuit, and won. Each customer was entitled to maybe 15 dollars, and in order to retrieve this 2 dollars I had to fill out some paperwork, while on the other hand, the Lawyers, law firm, received several million dollars which by my calculation, was 40% of the entire reward. They in a sense received more of the reparations than the people who were apparently wronged.

The American Legal system is very messed up, and justice more than often favors the client with more money.
 
2008-09-27 01:27:25 PM
Studson: you obviously don't know law

You got me there! (hahaha)
 
2008-09-27 01:29:17 PM
Arnold T Pants: • Researchers at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore interviewed 12,000 workers about depression. Lawyers ranked number 1 on the list of occupations that were most depressed. Of the 28 occupations studied, lawyers were more than 3.6 times more likely to be depressed than average.

• While 3 to 9% of the general population at any given time may experience depression, a quality-of-life survey conducted by the North Carolina Bar Association in 1991 reported that almost 26% of that bar's members exhibited symptoms of clinical depression. Almost 12% of them said they contemplated suicide at least once each month.

• Suicide currently ranks as one of the leading causes of premature death in the legal profession.

• One research study surveyed 801 lawyers in the State of Washington and found that 19% of the respondents suffered from depression and 18% were problem drinkers.

LOL


A post (from another website) by a woman who works as a dominatrix:

"I don't think I've ever met a lawyer that didn't loathe their job... I just got done torturing a guy's nipples for an hour until they bled, and then he jacked off.... he says its the only reason he can stomach doing law anymore... if it weren't for such "compassionate" women as myself, he would probably take a leap off a building... and we're talking a guy who's been to Vietnam (paratrooper) and suffered bullet wounds, broken limbs, back injuries, etc..."
 
2008-09-27 01:29:26 PM
Studson: you obviously don't know law

Unlike law school, most issues that run past your desk in practice are fairly straightforward. But then, you don't spend much time on them.
 
2008-09-27 01:29:47 PM
nashBridges: worlddan: And most people on the planet live on less than 1K a year. What's your point?

Most people on the planet also die during natural disasters. I'm not sure your way is better.


I never claimed it was. But what I will insist on is a logical relationship between cause and affect. My point was not that people die poor, my point was that people who claim that money buys them happiness are deluded. They may have money, they may be happy, but that is merely coincidence and not cause and affect. Money is not going to cause anyone to be happy. That's just not possible.

tonesskin: Good for you! Who the fark gives a shiat, though?

And who gives shiat about your need for money. As I said, shot on sight IMHO.
 
2008-09-27 01:30:14 PM
www.vicepresidents.com

Lawyer/ Lawyer

Its not a bad deal.
 
2008-09-27 01:30:45 PM
I work for attorneys, and I'm dating an attorney. They're not that bad.
 
2008-09-27 01:30:52 PM
I know lawyers that make $900 an hour. $700K? Pah!
 
2008-09-27 01:30:55 PM
Arnold T Pants: • Researchers at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore interviewed 12,000 workers about depression. Lawyers ranked number 1 on the list of occupations that were most depressed. Of the 28 occupations studied, lawyers were more than 3.6 times more likely to be depressed than average.

• While 3 to 9% of the general population at any given time may experience depression, a quality-of-life survey conducted by the North Carolina Bar Association in 1991 reported that almost 26% of that bar's members exhibited symptoms of clinical depression. Almost 12% of them said they contemplated suicide at least once each month.

• Suicide currently ranks as one of the leading causes of premature death in the legal profession.

• One research study surveyed 801 lawyers in the State of Washington and found that 19% of the respondents suffered from depression and 18% were problem drinkers.

LOL


Correlation does not equal causation.

Did you consider that they may have experienced depression BEFORE becoming lawyers? That perhaps the type of people prone to depression are also the same type who pursue highly intellectual career paths?

For example, I have experienced major depression since the age of 5. That was a long time before I ever decided became an attorney.
 
2008-09-27 01:31:03 PM
DamnYankees: dustman81: DamnYankees: Everyone hates lawyers except when they need one.

And the reason people "need" lawyers is because of other lawyers.

"Lawyers are like nuclear missiles. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them, they fark up everything." - Larry the Liquidator Other People's Money

Yeah. Lawyers aren't a requirement in a system based on law or anything like that.


the thing i don't get is why representing yourself in court without a lawyer is dangerous.

my wife and i dealt with some crap where, if hadn't retained a lawyer, we were going to be punished more stiffly than without one. and i just don't understand that.

and a lawyer would have cost more than than the bullshiat fines we were facing. we ended up getting there on one of the rare days the solicitor was in a good mood. he let it slide (mostly)
 
2008-09-27 01:32:55 PM
pvd021: The American Legal system is very messed up, and justice more than often favors the client with more money.

Wait, weren't you just talking about contingency fees, which help people who can't afford to pay lawyers by the hour get representation?
 
2008-09-27 01:33:09 PM
RadioactiveApe: Arnold T Pants: • Researchers at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore interviewed 12,000 workers about depression. Lawyers ranked number 1 on the list of occupations that were most depressed. Of the 28 occupations studied, lawyers were more than 3.6 times more likely to be depressed than average.

• While 3 to 9% of the general population at any given time may experience depression, a quality-of-life survey conducted by the North Carolina Bar Association in 1991 reported that almost 26% of that bar's members exhibited symptoms of clinical depression. Almost 12% of them said they contemplated suicide at least once each month.

• Suicide currently ranks as one of the leading causes of premature death in the legal profession.

• One research study surveyed 801 lawyers in the State of Washington and found that 19% of the respondents suffered from depression and 18% were problem drinkers.

LOL

A post (from another website) by a woman who works as a dominatrix:

"I don't think I've ever met a lawyer that didn't loathe their job... I just got done torturing a guy's nipples for an hour until they bled, and then he jacked off.... he says its the only reason he can stomach doing law anymore... if it weren't for such "compassionate" women as myself, he would probably take a leap off a building... and we're talking a guy who's been to Vietnam (paratrooper) and suffered bullet wounds, broken limbs, back injuries, etc..."


Dad?

/obligatory
 
2008-09-27 01:34:36 PM
Pointy Tail of Satan: I know lawyers that make $900 an hour. $700K? Pah!

They don't make $900 per hour. They BILL $900 per hour. Out of that, they pay their employees and other overhead.

I bill at $225/hour, and my salary doesn't come out to anywhere NEAR that on an hourly basis.
 
2008-09-27 01:36:36 PM
Farkage: trancemission: Very misleading. The graduates in the top 10% of their class make ridiculous salaries (especially those from top tier schools), while the rest fight over the scraps and really don't make nearly as much as lay people imagine a lawyer makes. It really skews the averages so the median salary is actually higher than most lawyers are making.

No it isn't. That would affect the mean salary (average). The median, by definition, means 50% of people are higher, 50% are lower. This isn't related to the magnitude of the numbers used whereas the mean is.


My mistake has already been corrected earlier in the thread. I'm not a statistician, sorry.

My point is this: ask the average person on the street what they think a typical lawyer makes, and I guarantee it will be WAY overstated. A select few make ridiculous salaries, often by robbing their clients blind and encouraging their associates to abandon their family lives and integrity in the hopes that they, too, might just someday be among the rarified ranks of the elite (not likely). The rest (i.e. vast majority) make much less than the average person would think.

I for one actually enjoy the practice of law (so far), but this thread is depressing because I know that my chances of ever making the kind of money my friends and family assume I should be making (just because I went to law school) is pretty farking unlikely.

/Not bitter
 
2008-09-27 01:36:43 PM
I'm a total loser without a law degree, so I'm getting a kick...
 
2008-09-27 01:40:37 PM
I couldn't be a lawyer.

I could not sue some one for a bagillion dollars because my dumbass client didn't know coffee was hot and sleep at night.

I also couldn't defend a motherfarker I KNEW was guilty and sleep at night.
 
2008-09-27 01:40:40 PM
I'm going to law school in three years, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2008-09-27 01:41:44 PM
kronicfeld: They don't make $900 per hour. They BILL $900 per hour. Out of that, they pay their employees and other overhead.

I bill at $225/hour, and my salary doesn't come out to anywhere NEAR that on an hourly basis.


It's true. The amount of overhead that the average attorney has makes this a very unprofitable profession for most people.

Add the overhead costs to the clients who decide to stop paying their bill because that evil lawyer already has enough money, and most small firms are barely covering their operating costs.

Almost half of my clients want me to conduct a jury trial with depositions on every state witness for $1000 or less. You cannot turn a profit on that amount, and would in fact lose money. Everyone in this country wants an attorney when they think they've been wronged, but nobody wants to pay for one.
 
2008-09-27 01:42:20 PM
Oldiron_79: I couldn't be a lawyer.

I could not sue some one for a bagillion dollars because my dumbass client didn't know coffee was hot and sleep at night.

I also couldn't defend a motherfarker I KNEW was guilty and sleep at night.


Why does everyone assume that this is the experience of the typical lawyer? It's like saying you could never be a doctor because you could never live with yourself after amputating the wrong limb.
 
2008-09-27 01:43:06 PM
Quick: the value of your soul.
 
2008-09-27 01:46:11 PM
trancemission: Oldiron_79: I couldn't be a lawyer.

I could not sue some one for a bagillion dollars because my dumbass client didn't know coffee was hot and sleep at night.

I also couldn't defend a motherfarker I KNEW was guilty and sleep at night.

Why does everyone assume that this is the experience of the typical lawyer? It's like saying you could never be a doctor because you could never live with yourself after amputating the wrong limb.


The Idiot that spilled coffee example may be a LOL exageration, but the defending guilty motherfarker is something you WILL do if you are a criminal defense attorney, because there aren't enough innocent ones to go around...
 
2008-09-27 01:46:31 PM
trancemission: Oldiron_79: I couldn't be a lawyer.

I could not sue some one for a bagillion dollars because my dumbass client didn't know coffee was hot and sleep at night.

I also couldn't defend a motherfarker I KNEW was guilty and sleep at night.

Why does everyone assume that this is the experience of the typical lawyer? It's like saying you could never be a doctor because you could never live with yourself after amputating the wrong limb.


When people ask me how I can defend accused criminals, this is what I tell them:

The State gets to make the rules, and it's my job to make sure that they follow them. If the State does its job correctly, my client either goes to jail, or we plead guilty before ever getting to trial. If the State can't be bothered to take the time to do its job correctly, and gathers evidence that is illegal under the rules that the State wrote, then I view it as my responsibility and duty to keep the State from getting a free pass on convicting somebody that is probably not guilty under the rules as set out by the State.
 
2008-09-27 01:48:13 PM
Studson: Law school blows, we work so hard to maybe get to the middle of our class and then we are left with either injury law or starting our own firms, or doing public defense because nobody will hire you unless you are at the top....

/angry cause its my birthday and i'm working on a legal memo due monday


My profound sympathies. I just finished one a couple days ago. It's a special kind of pain, innit?

Also, you forgot "running for public office" as something you could be left with after school. I mean, I have far too checkered of a past to actually get elected, but it's a viable option for some people.

/and then once you get into office, you can get away with almost anything!
//unless you're Eliot Spitzer
///or Ted Stevens
////or that other guy who got busted for that other thing
 
2008-09-27 01:48:46 PM
Oldiron_79: trancemission: Oldiron_79: I couldn't be a lawyer.

I could not sue some one for a bagillion dollars because my dumbass client didn't know coffee was hot and sleep at night.

I also couldn't defend a motherfarker I KNEW was guilty and sleep at night.

Why does everyone assume that this is the experience of the typical lawyer? It's like saying you could never be a doctor because you could never live with yourself after amputating the wrong limb.

The Idiot that spilled coffee example may be a LOL exageration, but the defending guilty motherfarker is something you WILL do if you are a criminal defense attorney, because there aren't enough innocent ones to go around...


What percentage of lawyers do think practice criminal defense? Not a single one of my friends in law school had any interest in it. The one friend I had who was interested in criminal law at all works for the DA's office.
 
2008-09-27 01:49:24 PM
To everyone considering law school:

DO NOT do it.

There are very few corporate jobs available in this god-awful economy, and far too many lawyers and law students already. The market is flooded. I go to a highly ranked tier 1 school and very few people from my class got jobs this year. My two roommates are top 15% of the class, and neither of them got offers. This was one of the worst hiring years on recent record, and it's only going to get worse in the next few years.

Even if you are "lucky" and get a corporate job (practically the only alternatives to which are accepting a shiat-paying public interest job or whoring yourself out to some insurance company), they have become the equivalent of Roman slave ships and will simply have you working twice a normal job's hours for twice the pay, no better than if you had simply taken two full-time 75k jobs.

U.S. law schools have become an absolute scam. Do not fall for it. Consider yourself warned.
 
2008-09-27 01:49:26 PM
So one Thanksgiving evening a lawyer if cleaning up the kitchen and the disposer gets stuck so he calls a plumber. The plumber arrives a bit later and fiddles with the disposer for 15 minutes then hands the lawyer a bill for $125.

The lawyer looks at the bill and exclaims, "$125 for 15 minutes work! That's $500 an hour. I'm a lawyer and I don't even charge that much!"

The plumber looks straight back at him and replies, "Neither did I when I was a lawyer."

/tip your waitress
 
2008-09-27 01:49:45 PM
the concept of 'billable hours' applies to lots of service industries. talk to a mechanic buddy of yours and he will tell you what 'the book' claims as billable hours on several jobs and how long it takes in reality. ask a lawyer and i'm pretty sure there is no 'book' that dictates how long a particular task takes.

'billable hours' are abused all the time.

/non-sequitor
 
2008-09-27 01:50:31 PM
I've been an attorney for 15 years. I went to a 3rd tier law school. I worked full time as a paralegal, went to school at night, and studied all weekend. For 4 years. This is how I learned what lawyers "do". Law schools only teach theory, practice must be learned on the job. When I started, law firms used typwriters and had paper books in their library.

Top law firms only take top students from top schools. Using the 80/20 rule, 20% of students will make 6-figure salary out of school. The rest will make about $30k - $80k depending on many factors. My first job was working for a PI lawyer making $45,000 per year. This was a step up from $30 I was making as a paralegal (This was the 1990s).

I've worked for firms, and worked on my own. I relocated for my wife's job, and have not found a job in my new location. I am spending my time doing mostly real estate which is much more fun. The great thing about a law degree is you can use it in business and it will help you. If I had it to do over again, I would have gone into the tech sector.

It's been my experience that people who sue love lawyers. People who get sued hate lawyers.
 
2008-09-27 01:50:42 PM
jackrazz: trancemission: Oldiron_79: I couldn't be a lawyer.

I could not sue some one for a bagillion dollars because my dumbass client didn't know coffee was hot and sleep at night.

I also couldn't defend a motherfarker I KNEW was guilty and sleep at night.

Why does everyone assume that this is the experience of the typical lawyer? It's like saying you could never be a doctor because you could never live with yourself after amputating the wrong limb.

When people ask me how I can defend accused criminals, this is what I tell them:

The State gets to make the rules, and it's my job to make sure that they follow them. If the State does its job correctly, my client either goes to jail, or we plead guilty before ever getting to trial. If the State can't be bothered to take the time to do its job correctly, and gathers evidence that is illegal under the rules that the State wrote, then I view it as my responsibility and duty to keep the State from getting a free pass on convicting somebody that is probably not guilty under the rules as set out by the State.


Exactly. Your job isn't to get a guilty client off scot-free, it's to make sure he's dealt with fairly. Due process is for everyone - even the guilty, and yes, even for suspected terrorists.
 
2008-09-27 01:51:03 PM
worlddan: I think people who run around chasing money are worse off as human beings than I am.

I'm doing well in school and hoping to go to law school in an effort to provide my fiance and me with a good life.

Do you happen to have my IP address?
 
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