FARK.com: (3824404) I know it was your favorite blouse and that stain is permanent, and also you have a big presentation today but didn't get any sleep last night because I snore. Oh, and that thing with your sister was just one time. Just let it go, okay?

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		I know it was your favorite blouse and that stain is permanent, and also you have a big presentation today but didn't get any sleep last night because I snore. Oh, and that thing with your sister was just one time. Just let it go, okay? (cnn.com)		175
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Winterstar		2008-08-24 03:59:03 PM

just_another_farker: Excuse me? What in my post says about me that I use forgiveness as a way to blame others for my life? Forgiving their actions means that I accepted control of my own life and will not allow them to victimize me any longer. Which is exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.

"I held onto the resentment of being sexually molested by my own father and rejected, neglected by my mother for most of my life and it damaged me. I was a bitter person that could not enjoy my life and nearly killed myself with meth in an attempt to escape the hatred I had for myself."

You are stating your actions were dictated by the pain inflicted by your parents until the point at which you forgave them - you're using "forgiveness" as an excuse for your prior actions, as "forgiving" them gave you a sense of control over the situation that you didn't have before.

That's what I'm referring to.

Synaesthesia		2008-08-24 04:04:25 PM

Hey guys, I'm so glad you're a forgiving bunch. Thanks a lot, I feel better. Just a moment ago, my conscience was bothering me, but now I can forget it more easily.

Excuse me I got a cheerleader here wants to help with my paper, let her do all the work, maybe later I'll rape her!

/I do not think that I'm too extreme.
//And I'm a handsome son of a biatch.
///Forgiveness means fewer consequences for me.

just_another_farker		2008-08-24 04:04:26 PM

Winterstar: just_another_farker: Excuse me? What in my post says about me that I use forgiveness as a way to blame others for my life? Forgiving their actions means that I accepted control of my own life and will not allow them to victimize me any longer. Which is exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.

"I held onto the resentment of being sexually molested by my own father and rejected, neglected by my mother for most of my life and it damaged me. I was a bitter person that could not enjoy my life and nearly killed myself with meth in an attempt to escape the hatred I had for myself."

You are stating your actions were dictated by the pain inflicted by your parents until the point at which you forgave them - you're using "forgiveness" as an excuse for your prior actions, as "forgiving" them gave you a sense of control over the situation that you didn't have before.

That's what I'm referring to.

As Grimmey so eloquently stated, it sounds like you're practicing psychology without a license and you have completely misunderstood the intention of that statement. I am not using forgiveness as an excuse for my prior actions, I have fully accepted responsibility for the choices I made. What I said is that holding on to the grudge and not forgiving their transgressions made me a miserable person with no regard to my own life. And in your posts you have proven my point precisely, you seem to think that being bitter toward your ex will protect you from that kind of person again and you boldly state that you have moved on, those two statements directly contradict each other.

G.I.R.B.		2008-08-24 04:08:29 PM

'K,

somewhat drunk professional checkin' in on the subject.

Hate is the wrong way to go.
Holding grudges hurts the most.
Accept the things that are what they are as just that, reality.

Take responsibility for how you feel.
That does not mean you can't "forgive", just don't forget what was done to you.

Write off those relationships which are beyond hope. Let it go. it's not your fault they're pricks.

Fool me once, shame on you....Fool me twice, I'm a sucker....

/like who you are first, everything else is BS

catzies		2008-08-24 04:09:13 PM

Unsung_Hero: So, another proof that men are saner than women?

Man - I did something bad, remembering why helps me empathize with someone else in the same boat.

Woman - I did something bad, so I condemn others in the same boat in hopes no one notices what I did.

Oh please. My boyfriend and I are the exact reverse in your model; I'm the man, and he's the woman.

But, just for fun's sake, those thought processes you outlined can be applied to idealogies & not just genders. Take, for example, your analogy as applied to philandering pols:

~~Man~~ Liberals - I did something bad, remembering why helps me empathize with someone else in the same boat.

~~Woman~~ Conservatives - I did something bad, so I condemn others in the same boat in hopes no one notices what I did.

Play along at home kids, have some fun!

just_another_farker		2008-08-24 04:12:50 PM

Winterstar our argument is a futile one and I'm moving on to a more entertaining thread but before I go, your problem with me seems to be that I have found a way, through forgiveness, to not be a bitter person while you prefer to hang on to the bitterness which seems to make you angry with me and for that, well, I forgive you.

Eventually you'll figure out that all that resentment is just not good for you. At least I can hope.

Wulfhardt		2008-08-24 04:13:12 PM

Synaesthesia: Hey guys, I'm so glad you're a forgiving bunch. Thanks a lot, I feel better. Just a moment ago, my conscience was bothering me, but now I can forget it more easily.

Excuse me I got a cheerleader here wants to help with my paper, let her do all the work, maybe later I'll rape her!

/I do not think that I'm too extreme.
//And I'm a handsome son of a biatch.
///Forgiveness means fewer consequences for me.

Again, people are relatively basic and vicious little animals. If you savage another person the way you described, your punishment should be swift and just. I have always advocated either death or a combination of neutering and partial lobotomy for violent criminals, as these methods guarantee the threat is neutralized.

Forgiveness simply means acknowledging what someone is and understanding their motivations. It does not mean looking at your shoes and mumbling "that's okay."

Apply logic to your life.

G.I.R.B.		2008-08-24 04:15:42 PM

stirfrybry: cehlen: My mother is in a nursing home recovering from cancer surgery to her leg.
She lives in a condo nearby and I have been going over there for years visiting and fixing problems ranging from bills, home repairs, computer problems and health problems.
Since her surgery, I had gone to the hospital and nursing home everyday taking her clothes, mail...whatever she needed.
Not one time did she say thank you, how are you and the kids doing, nothing.
She has complained about the food, her medicine, why I didn't bring her catalogs with the rest of the mail. She thinks that the nursing home staff is out to get her and asks me when I am going to allow her to come home. I told her that the doctor has to decide when she is well enough, not me, (she knows this is true because she discussed it with the social worker) but she insists on yelling at me like it is my fault she is in there. I had to pull some strings to get her there in the first place because it was the only nursing home that she wanted to go to (it is very nice and even has menus for the patients to chose their meals from). Now she hates it.
Last week, I handed her the latest batch of stuff from her condo and said, "You're welcome". She gave me a look that cold kill and said, "Are you saying that I should thank you?". I said that it would be nice if she could do that occasionally.
Then she said, "Thanks for trying to be a good daughter, you have not succeeded".
I walked out and have not been back since.
This woman was not good to me growing up, she beat me, verbally abused me and never offered a nurturing word.
I could go on about her weirdness but the bottom line is that this is affecting my health and I cannot take it any more.
I am not going back. She is on her own.

That's harsh, but I totally agree with you.

I disagree. It's not harsh. Mom has made her own bed, crapped in it, and now wants those she's crapped on to make it smell like roses.

Screw her.

Save yourself.

Danger Avoid Death		2008-08-24 04:16:39 PM

Wulfhardt		2008-08-24 04:16:52 PM

G.I.R.B.:

Thanks. Drunk or not, you make a lot of sense.

G.I.R.B.		2008-08-24 04:19:33 PM

Wulfhardt: G.I.R.B.:

Thanks. Drunk or not, you make a lot of sense.

You are most welcome.

You make a good deal of sense also. You must have dealt with scorpions also.

Wulfhardt		2008-08-24 04:33:52 PM

G.I.R.B.: You are most welcome.

You make a good deal of sense also. You must have dealt with scorpions also.

Eh, they are what they are. It's just a matter of how to deal with problems. What you said is something I first read in a book years ago. It made sense to me then, and makes even more sense, the older I get. A lot of people don't want to forgive because they think that means there's no hope for justice or that it means their suffering isn't worth being angry about. But it's not like that. I'm just glad to see other people who understand that.

Somacandra		2008-08-24 04:34:56 PM

I'D CHOP EM ALL UP WITH A LIGHTSABER

news.filefront.com

vlester		2008-08-24 04:43:28 PM

catzies: Unsung_Hero: So, another proof that men are saner than women?

Man - I did something bad, remembering why helps me empathize with someone else in the same boat.

Woman - I did something bad, so I condemn others in the same boat in hopes no one notices what I did.

Oh please. My boyfriend and I are the exact reverse in your model; I'm the man, and he's the woman.

But, just for fun's sake, those thought processes you outlined can be applied to idealogies & not just genders. Take, for example, your analogy as applied to philandering pols:

Man Liberals - I did something bad, remembering why helps me empathize with someone else in the same boat.

Woman Conservatives - I did something bad, so I condemn others in the same boat in hopes no one notices what I did.

Play along at home kids, have some fun!

I LOL'ed cause its true.

WhatTheFoobies		2008-08-24 04:52:14 PM

liberalish:One step at a time, though both should be taken. Forgive those who have wronged you, apologize to those you have wronged. Life is too short to be to be in a bad mood all the time.

Life is indeed too short to be in a bad mood all the time, but IMHO that doesn't mean you should make sure you forgive all wrongs.

Some people are going to be a destructive influence on your life, and succeed at making you constantly miserable. The right solution is not to forgive them, but to cut off ties and forget about them. Once you haven't thought about them in years, everything that happened will be something in the distant past, and unlikely to stir up any feelings even if brought up.

You don't need to forgive in order to avoid dwelling on the issue, just forget it. Stop thinking about it - cutting off contact with the person often helps with this part. Trying to forgive something that you genuinely don't consider forgivable will just make you focus on the issue too much.

I could be wrong, and maybe it works differently for other people, but that certainly has always been how it has worked for me.

Suki		2008-08-24 04:57:12 PM

cehlen,

You made a difficult choice, but I think it was the best one given the circumstances. Now, go and be with family and friends who love you. Enjoy life and live it to the fullest!

farkinbulletWounds		2008-08-24 05:03:18 PM

If you don't let go it dosnt hurt the person thst wronged you only yourself. In most cases they could'nt give a fark if they are forgiven or not. If you want to live without being bitter and twisted it does pay to let go of the past, lifes way too short to let someone else rob you of happiness, and most the time they don't know you are still suffering. Let go

trouzourt		2008-08-24 05:06:36 PM

his aunt is right in not speaking with him..
god hates fags.. and we all know that.. we all also know that he got cancer due to his actions.... we all know Katerina was sent by god to stop the fags from having their parade... I pay that he has the will to repent his sins, and beg not only god for forgiveness, but his own family for bringing shame to them by going public about this sexuality ....

Winterstar		2008-08-24 05:06:42 PM

farkinbulletWounds: If you don't let go it dosnt hurt the person thst wronged you only yourself. In most cases they could'nt give a fark if they are forgiven or not. If you want to live without being bitter and twisted it does pay to let go of the past, lifes way too short to let someone else rob you of happiness, and most the time they don't know you are still suffering. Let go

Who says that not forgiving = still suffering? Suffering can end without forgiveness.

neenerist		2008-08-24 05:15:39 PM

Contempt and apathy, both viable alternatives to forgiveness.

Unsung_Hero		2008-08-24 05:27:00 PM

Third_Uncle_Eno		2008-08-24 05:36:49 PM

cehlen
Not one time did she say thank you, how are you and the kids doing, nothing.
She has complained about the food, her medicine, why I didn't bring her catalogs with the rest of the mail. She thinks that the nursing home staff is out to get her and asks me when I am going to allow her to come home.

hmmm.... maybe she has the beginings of Alzheimers?
selinity?
or another form of mental illness?

/ i 90% agree with what you said/did tho.... i take my hat off to you :-)

TheBigJerk		2008-08-24 05:43:46 PM

cehlen:
I am not going back. She is on her own.

Congratulations.

Now get thee to a therapist, if you are making the mistake of venting personal, meaningful stories like that here on fark you CLEARLY need some assistance. Additionally, continuing the cycle of abuse is a subtle thing, an outsider's view helps one avoid it. Not saying you *are*, but I don't know you and it *is* a danger.

Best of luck, especially with the afib.

Massa Damnata		2008-08-24 05:46:38 PM

HenryFnord: I have no idea what HenryFnord is trying to say

oh, you're a townie? Sorry, I'll put "bai" on the end next time. :)

Actually, I'm a mainlander. I was just being an asshat...as usual

magical_mystery_meat		2008-08-24 05:54:17 PM

TheBigJerk:
Now get thee to a therapist, if you are making the mistake of venting personal, meaningful stories like that here on fark you CLEARLY need some assistance.
Interesting. Why are you sure of this?

fireandashes36		2008-08-24 06:03:32 PM

Winterstar: It's a righteous anger, a constructive hate...concepts that some people can't get their heads around.

I have often felt that anger, not love is the strongest and most productive emotion. I also think it is important for people to understand the difference between anger and hate.

NYZooMan		2008-08-24 06:06:00 PM

jaylectricity: liberalish: Life is too short to be to be in a bad mood all the time.

I can't stand miserable pricks that go through life sharing their complaints on anyone that has ever done something that made their life more difficult. Especially when those people didn't actually do anything unreasonable.

Yeah, Damn people who are pissed all the time make my blood boil constantly!

danceswithcrows		2008-08-24 06:06:52 PM

Synaesthesia: Excuse me I got a cheerleader here wants to help with my paper, let her do all the work, maybe later I'll rape her!

You know, I hope that Synaesthesia was quoting that "Bobby Brown" song that Frank Zappa wrote years and years ago, and not describing what he actually was thinking. I Could Be Wrong though.

NYZooMan		2008-08-24 06:07:17 PM

fireandashes36: Winterstar: It's a righteous anger, a constructive hate...concepts that some people can't get their heads around.

I have often felt that anger, not love is the strongest and most productive emotion. I also think it is important for people to understand the difference between anger and hate.

Or just understand the difference between anger expression and violence.
Too many think they're the same.

tekmo		2008-08-24 06:07:58 PM

If I loan you $500, and you fark up and can't pay it back, I might choose to forgive your loan.

Doesn't mean I have any further obligation to loan you more money. Doesn't mean I'm not permitted to regard you as a farkup. Just means that I understand that I'm not getting the money back.

cehlen: My mother is in a nursing home recovering from cancer surgery to her leg....she said, "Thanks for trying to be a good daughter, you have not succeeded". I am not going back. She is on her own.

Your mother failed. You didn't.

If she's this determined to be miserable, sane or not, there's nothing you can do about it. Let her have her way.

/some experience here.

Ringshadow		2008-08-24 06:18:09 PM

cehlen: shipofthesun: cehlen: My youngest son said that he would think I had a brain tumor. That made me smile, because he was saying that he knew I would never knowingly treat my children that way.

And yet, have you actually considered that your mother may be mentally ill? I am not qualified to offer a diagnosis, just qualified to note that we all have blind spots, and mine was my own mental health. What I considered normal because of the way I was raised and the way I thought was actually deep bipolar activity that I finally saw when it was pointed out to me forcefully. Your mothers actions are not what I would consider to be in the range of normal human interaction, and goes way beyond the pale of "grouchy".

I do think that she has some kind of borderline personality disorder for most of her life. The problem is that there is no way to fix it if she will not get help or acknowledge that she has a problem. She is capable of making decisions and taking care of ordinary day to day affairs. It is the way that she handles personal relationships that is disturbing.
I even asked the nursing home is they could have the doctor talk to her but they told me that they did not get involved in "family matters". There job is to make sure the leg is healed. Anything else is not their problem.
The only other option was to have some kind of intervention with her minister but I really think that it would just make her angrier and she would deny that there was any problem at all.

..Ok, that's lame. They're a nursing home, and they should be concerned with her mental health as well as her physical health. As many people as they probably see with dementia and Alzheimer's, that was definitely the wrong response.
I know you walked away (and I support your decision), but if you're still concerned at all, take it up with the nursing home's social services people. They should at least be able to help you determine the next course of action, maybe even get her recommended for psych evaluation before she leaves.

cehlen		2008-08-24 06:28:57 PM

TheBigJerk: cehlen:
I am not going back. She is on her own.

Congratulations.

Now get thee to a therapist, if you are making the mistake of venting personal, meaningful stories like that here on fark you CLEARLY need some assistance. Additionally, continuing the cycle of abuse is a subtle thing, an outsider's view helps one avoid it. Not saying you *are*, but I don't know you and it *is* a danger.

Best of luck, especially with the afib.

The people of Fark can be insightful and thoughtful and they have been so with me today.
Talking things over with a therapist is something that might be helpful in this situation. It is always good to get another opinion from someone who is a step removed from the problem or has been through the same thing themselves.
It is easy not to continue the cycle of abuse. All you have to do is raise your kids the opposite of the way you were raised. Very simple really. My sons are wonderful and I love them dearly. I count raising them to be good, responsible, loving adults as my most rewarding experience in this lifetime. The oldest is already talking about me babysitting his children (he just got married) and I am looking forward to it.

Catbunny		2008-08-24 06:31:16 PM

Forgiving doesn't mean you have to forget what a person did or put yourself in a situation to allow a person to hurt you again. It is merely letting it go and moving on with your life. You can forgive a person and still choose not to have them in your life.

Lena_LaFaye		2008-08-24 06:56:30 PM

MMmm yeah here's my antedote-

Growing up I tried to love my mom's mother. Numerous times. She made it hard. Once she tried to exorsise me. Another time she told me not to take her love for real just cos we're related. Then another time she said she denounced me has her blood. Only to take it back a month later. All this abuse was covered with lies of christ love.

Two years back, last time I saw her my grandmother grabbed my arm and demanded to know if I was pregnant. I weighed 115. I am 5'4. I looked at best a little bloated from breakfast. Needless to say I was PISSED.

Have not spoken to her since...feel much better for it too.

Lord Summerisle		2008-08-24 06:59:17 PM

I never, ever let go of a grudge.

AnyName		2008-08-24 07:02:08 PM

Lena_LaFaye: MMmm yeah here's my antedote-

I weighed 115. I am 5'4.

How YOU doin'?

/Couldn't resist, please forgive me.

Delay		2008-08-24 07:12:24 PM

Seems to me that too many ar$sholes expect the world to forgive their unrepentant bullshiat. Frankly, don't we all know someone we would love to take a steam roller up over their legs slowly to their face, enjoying the sounds.

OhFFS		2008-08-24 07:27:50 PM

One of the best things my therapist ever told me was that I don't HAVE to forgive anyone. I can choose to, but as long as I came to terms with the pain someone caused me, I don't have to forgive them, like them, speak to them, or anything else. It really turned me around and made me a much happier and healthier person once I stopped punishing myself for not being able to forgive my asshole uncles and my abusive ex who I was 'forced' to hang out with because he was a friend of friends. Once I realized I didn't HAVE to hang with him, life became a lot nicer.

st.theresa		2008-08-24 07:41:57 PM

OhFFS: One of the best things my therapist ever told me was that I don't HAVE to forgive anyone. I can choose to, but as long as I came to terms with the pain someone caused me, I don't have to forgive them, like them, speak to them, or anything else. It really turned me around and made me a much happier and healthier person once I stopped punishing myself for not being able to forgive my asshole uncles and my abusive ex who I was 'forced' to hang out with because he was a friend of friends. Once I realized I didn't HAVE to hang with him, life became a lot nicer.

I'm just not sure that there's a difference. Forgiveness doesn't mean that you then like then, hang out with them, speak to them, whatever. It certainly doesn't mean you forget what happened. It does mean that you stop waking up with rage toward them the first thing in your mind, anger and sadness all day and thoughts of vengeance all night.

Parasitic_Spin		2008-08-24 07:42:00 PM

I had to do the ninth step amends thing as part of my recovery from alcoholism.

The hardest amends was to my husband's sister, who is not at all a nice person, IMHO. She and I have treated each other pretty badly over the years. She also has a very painful and fragile relationship with her brothers.

I saw her last summer and apologized for my part. She was pretty gracious about it, which I would have understood if she had not been. We have caused each other a lot of pain. She did not take any responsibility or apologize for any part of her side of things. This does not change my regret for my own actions, but it did tell me that I should move on with my life minimizing my involvement with her.

You can't believe how much pressure I am under from family members to pretend that it's all rainbows and unicorns. When I focus on the facts, it puts them over the edge.

Forgiveness is hard, especially when the person in questions hasn't changed thier behavior and isn't sorry.I appreciate how kind she was to me about this, but I am not going to be her doormat just because I used to drink (and haven't now for years).

st.theresa		2008-08-24 07:45:34 PM

Parasitic_Spin:

First, congrats on your sobriety. That's awesome!

When I focus on the facts, it puts them over the edge.

It sounds like this is when they think one thing is happening and you set them straight, but it could be a precarious line toward getting obsessive over keeping score and tracking. She's not worth that.

fish_mosaic		2008-08-24 07:55:27 PM

Winterstar: Holding onto the anger, remembering what they've done, is what empowers a person to get out of the situation, to stay out of the situation, and gives the energy necessary to never let the situation ever happen again.

It's a righteous anger, a constructive hate...concepts that some people can't get their heads around.

I agree with you -- to a point. The important part is to get out of the situation, and anger helps one do that, I totally agree.

However, eventually one needs to let go of the anger/grudge, otherwise one is in danger of the anger taking over when the real emotion -- be it love, trust or standard empathy -- should come into play. Eventually, one should come to a point where the anger/grudge is no longer required.

Tekmo, I couldn't agree with you more on your final point.

And the blood = good person thing is complete bullshiat, absolutely. Family can be worse than axe murderers.

tekmo		2008-08-24 07:58:56 PM

cehlen: It is easy not to continue the cycle of abuse. All you have to do is raise your kids the opposite of the way you were raised. Very simple really.

Damn skippy!

My sons are wonderful and I love them dearly.

I forgot to mention that the "brain tumor" comment was awesome. Well done, both of you.

I don't think you sound like you need therapy. Unless you want to teach a therapist something. Sounds like you've got your shiat together.

Phocas		2008-08-24 08:01:00 PM

trouzourt

1.5/10. Points only given since spelling, capitalization and punctuation errors might lead some people to believe you're actually serious.

Parasitic_Spin		2008-08-24 08:01:55 PM

st. theresa: it could be a precarious line toward getting obsessive over keeping score and tracking

Yeah, I think about that too. I also know that in the 15+ years I have known her, neither her brothers nor I can think of a single time that she has apologized to any of us for anything. So I'm really confident that something is seriously wrong with her.

I wish things were different. I can only change my behavior, though.

hershmire		2008-08-24 08:03:14 PM

cehlen: The last time mom started reminiscing, I wondered if she remembered the time that she locked herself in the garage and started the car in an attempt to kill herself ( I was ten at the time) or the numerous times that she let her second husband beat the crap out of me and my sister. Or the time our "funny uncle" got a little too friendly but she wouldn't say anything about it to him because she did not want to upset her sister.

So, what the hell was wrong with your grandparents?

NakedApe		2008-08-24 08:07:21 PM

Broktun: My parents have seen their granddaughter twice in 7 years. . .and we only live 10 miles apart.

Long story, but in a nutshell I married a Catholic.

Catholics? Are they the ones who won't drive cars? You'd think a horse could make a ten mile trip once in a while.

Danger Avoid Death		2008-08-24 08:10:15 PM

Broktun: My parents have seen their granddaughter twice in 7 years. . .and we only live 10 miles apart.

Long story, but in a nutshell I married a Catholic.

Wow. That was one big nutshell. Or one very small wedding.