RoxtarRyan: Billygoat Gruff: I think there should be some type of mandatory service for your country, not necessarily military, or a draft, but evryone should do something for at least 2 years. I think it would give people a sense of purpose other than biatching about every farking thing

I've been saying that for a long time. Some kind of civil service, such as a volunteer firefighter, EMT, in local government, at a school... something to help instill either community pride, sense of accomplishment, responsibility or the like.

Exactly! I know other countries do this. It will definitely do all the things you said it would. But I do believe that most Americans are to entrenched into the entitlement mindset to even fathom doing anything like this.

Can you dodge the draft by stating that you're openly gay?

What happens when you don't answer your call to duty when drafted? Do you serve prison time?

I heard somewhere you can pay some huge fine if you don't want to be drafted, is this true?

gshepnyc: Honestly, I think that woman was so tiresome and such a poor and rambling speaker that he zoned out like my grandpa did during sermons.

Jackpot777: MindfulModeration: Shadowknight: jayg22: So she spoke for 5 minutes and we only get the little 5 second PS?

/Keith Olbermann is to Flaming Lying Liberal
//They should make him and Bill O'Reily have a UFC death match.

Actually, just because Olbermann is a liberal doesn't mean he's wrong. He may come off to be a bit of a jerk on occasion, but tell me one instance where he intentionally reported anything less than the truth.

I'm not certain that he's objecting to the content of Olbermann's argument, it's just that the clip was (potentially) deceptively short, and all we got were the "draft" and "does not dissagree" parts.

/To Olbermann's credit, he did mention that the old lady covered a multitude of topics.

The full clip was in TFA. 1'53".

Check it out (new window)

...my bad. I thought they ran with the Think Progress piece that broke it.

The link I provided has the full piece. But it's irrefutable. It's not as though the draft part was hidden in the middle of what she said. She said about the draft and his Weeners was, to paraphrase, "I don't disagree with that."

Where do the freepers and Dittoheads think these extra soldiers are coming from? The asses of pixies and unicorns?

And they talk about Obama being naive!

You can draft young republicans, but they won't be able to serve unless we admit gays to the service.

Except for this being false (new window), it's completely true.

Billygoat Gruff: RoxtarRyan: Billygoat Gruff: I think there should be some type of mandatory service for your country, not necessarily military, or a draft, but evryone should do something for at least 2 years. I think it would give people a sense of purpose other than biatching about every farking thing

I've been saying that for a long time. Some kind of civil service, such as a volunteer firefighter, EMT, in local government, at a school... something to help instill either community pride, sense of accomplishment, responsibility or the like.

Exactly! I know other countries do this. It will definitely do all the things you said it would. But I do believe that most Americans are to entrenched into the entitlement mindset to even fathom doing anything like this.


A Croatian freind of mine didn't want to do military things for his compulsive service, so he wound up teaching mentally handicapped children for his 18 month commitment...I think there's a good deal of merit to the idea of some sort of compulsory service to your country...

pvd021: Can you dodge the draft by stating that you're openly gay?

What happens when you don't answer your call to duty when drafted? Do you serve prison time?

I heard somewhere you can pay some huge fine if you don't want to be drafted, is this true?

Not sure about the openly gay bit, but you might just be regulated to a non-combat role or something. After all I think that the idea of "Don't ask, don't tell" is that you don't get aroused while huddling together for warmth on patrol. Something like that, I can't remember what the guy said in his report to congress.

The dodging the draft is punishable by prison time, yes. It's one of the reasons the guys who fled to Canada had to be pardoned before they could return.

Never heard of the "buy your way out" approach, but it wouldn't surprise me in today's America.

Billygoat Gruff: I think there should be some type of mandatory service for your country, not necessarily military, or a draft, but evryone should do something for at least 2 years. I think it would give people a sense of purpose other than biatching about every farking thing

Great idea. be the first to step up and implement your own idea and run off to iraq. come back and two years and tell us how it went.

MindfulModeration: MindfulModeration: Billygoat Gruff: I think there should be some type of mandatory service for your country, not necessarily military, or a draft, but evryone should do something for at least 2 years. I think it would give people a sense of purpose other than biatching about every farking thing

OK, now I really don't mean to belittle your argument here, because I do think it has some merit, but:

Frack. That was supposed to be a poster for Starship Troopers.

was that mandatory service in that movie? Im sure more people would be down for volunteering or being part of something if there were co-ed showers like in the movie! But my point was that you should do something, not necessarily the military. Its not for everybody, I served for 7 years, but some people are not cut out for it, which is fine becuase they would probably cost lives, but those less onclined should still be expected to do something for their country and or community. I think it would be a great way to bridge a lot of gaps between people. For example when I meaat another vet regardless of branch, there is an isntant connection. I think if more people had that type of interaction there may be less problems in our communities.

MindfulModeration:

Never heard of the "buy your way out" approach, but it wouldn't surprise me in today's America.


You've never heard of the Alabama Air National Guard?

roscotsmalls: Billygoat Gruff: RoxtarRyan: Billygoat Gruff: I think there should be some type of mandatory service for your country, not necessarily military, or a draft, but evryone should do something for at least 2 years. I think it would give people a sense of purpose other than biatching about every farking thing

I've been saying that for a long time. Some kind of civil service, such as a volunteer firefighter, EMT, in local government, at a school... something to help instill either community pride, sense of accomplishment, responsibility or the like.

Exactly! I know other countries do this. It will definitely do all the things you said it would. But I do believe that most Americans are to entrenched into the entitlement mindset to even fathom doing anything like this.


A Croatian freind of mine didn't want to do military things for his compulsive service, so he wound up teaching mentally handicapped children for his 18 month commitment...I think there's a good deal of merit to the idea of some sort of compulsory service to your country...

Service to one's country is often good. I come from a military family. But compulsion is ALWAYS wrong.

Billygoat Gruff: MindfulModeration: MindfulModeration: Billygoat Gruff: I think there should be some type of mandatory service for your country, not necessarily military, or a draft, but evryone should do something for at least 2 years. I think it would give people a sense of purpose other than biatching about every farking thing

OK, now I really don't mean to belittle your argument here, because I do think it has some merit, but:

Frack. That was supposed to be a poster for Starship Troopers.

was that mandatory service in that movie? Im sure more people would be down for volunteering or being part of something if there were co-ed showers like in the movie! But my point was that you should do something, not necessarily the military. Its not for everybody, I served for 7 years, but some people are not cut out for it, which is fine becuase they would probably cost lives, but those less onclined should still be expected to do something for their country and or community. I think it would be a great way to bridge a lot of gaps between people. For example when I meaat another vet regardless of branch, there is an isntant connection. I think if more people had that type of interaction there may be less problems in our communities.

Good god. the filters can find swear words but dont catch misspelled words? Must be because the LOLcat stuff wouldnt be as funny.

roscotsmalls: I think there's a good deal of merit to the idea of some sort of compulsory service to your country...

Service ensures citizenship. Would you like to know more?

/or were you thinking more of a press gang?

pvd021: Can you dodge the draft by stating that you're openly gay?

What happens when you don't answer your call to duty when drafted? Do you serve prison time?

I heard somewhere you can pay some huge fine if you don't want to be drafted, is this true?

When President Clinton was running for office, the Department of Defense (DOD) had a policy (which was based upon Article 125 of the UCMJ), which *PROHIBITED* homosexuals from serving in the military. If one was even suspected to be homosexual (whether or not they were actively engaging in homosexual conduct), they were investigated, and (if determined to be homosexual) discharged. Sometimes they were court-martialed. Often, they received Article 15s along with their discharge.

Clinton promised (as a campaign promise) to eliminate the restrictions about homosexuals serving in the military. When he was elected to office, he set about trying to make this happen, by drafting an Executive Order which would have ordered the Secretary of Defense to eliminate the policy.

This worried the members of Congress who introduced legislation which would have made the DOD policy into Federal Law, that Clinton (nor any other President) would not be able to over-ride. It was very clear that not only did Congress have enough votes to pass the law, but they had enough votes to over-ride any possible Presidential veto.

Clinton was now between a rock and a hard place. If he tried to enact an Executive Order, Congress would pass their legislation, and he could not afford (politically) to have his first veto over-ridden by Congress.

So, the negotiations began, which ultimately resulted in Clinton issuing an Executive Order for the Current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. In exchange, Congress dropped the legislation which would have made a federal law, forever forbidding homosexuals to serve.

Under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," the military no longer asks a person's sexual preference when that person enlists (it used to be a question on the enlistment forms). The military no longer investigates claims that a person is homosexual (they can, and do, however, investigate allegations of homosexual CONDUCT). Homosexual CONDUCT is still grounds for discharge (honorable). CONDUCT includes, not only homosexual acts while on active duty, but also includes telling others that you are homosexual (That's the "Don't Tell" part). (new window)

Or say you're a monogamous bisexual; you swing both ways but you don't cheat on who you're with (usually)... but you could definitely see yourself being gay for your fellow soldiers if they return the favor. Honorable discharge faster than you can say "is that discharge papers in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?".

Billygoat Gruff: MindfulModeration: MindfulModeration: Billygoat Gruff: I think there should be some type of mandatory service for your country, not necessarily military, or a draft, but evryone should do something for at least 2 years. I think it would give people a sense of purpose other than biatching about every farking thing

OK, now I really don't mean to belittle your argument here, because I do think it has some merit, but:

Frack. That was supposed to be a poster for Starship Troopers.

was that mandatory service in that movie? Im sure more people would be down for volunteering or being part of something if there were co-ed showers like in the movie! But my point was that you should do something, not necessarily the military. Its not for everybody, I served for 7 years, but some people are not cut out for it, which is fine becuase they would probably cost lives, but those less onclined should still be expected to do something for their country and or community. I think it would be a great way to bridge a lot of gaps between people. For example when I meaat another vet regardless of branch, there is an isntant connection. I think if more people had that type of interaction there may be less problems in our communities.

I agree that mandatory service to the community would be a great thing to have, after all, the best way to create and maintain a community is to have everyone contribute something useful. And I'm sure a lot of people would be eager to do so in lieu of being drafted too.

/BTW, In Troopers, they didn't really force you to serve, it was just the only real viable way to be recognised as a citizen, and thus, vote.

Charlie Rangel(D) introduced a freakin' BILL last year that would "require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services...."

McCain saying he "doesn't disagree" is very different than sponsoring a bill, no? Where's the outrage, libbies?

H.R. 393

equilibrium: rufus-t-firefly: "Countrypersons."

You're leaving out our urban brothers and sisters.

/nationbeings

Well done. You are a gentleperson and a scholar.

To give McCain some credit, he has the memory span of a goldfish. By the time he answers, he has no farking clue what the question was.

If it was good enough for me back in 1970, then its good enough for you young slackers today!

/and stay off my lawn!

NeverDrunk23: And wouldn't this do better on the politics page?

They put it on both Video and Politics, 'for great justice'.

Why isnt this on the front page of cnn and msnbc? If Obama wouldve said it , the loops would driving us mad. If the media was doing its job McCain wouldnt be sniffing Obamas lead. Unreal.

I'm in favor of reinstating the draft.

This way public opinion will end the war before the first drafted soldier ever makes it to Iraq. The only reason vietnam ever ended is because drafted soldiers were sent there.

I'm no McCain supporter, but the commentary on this video sure does bring out the conclusion trampoline to jump off of.

Poorly worded answer? Yes.

Most likely he meant to say that he agrees that the current enlisted need to be attended to better? I'll guess that that is a yes.

On the other hand, the fact that he needs to read his well thought out answers off of cards is disturbing.

equilibrium: roscotsmalls: I think there's a good deal of merit to the idea of some sort of compulsory service to your country...

Service ensures citizenship. Would you like to know more?







Would you like to know more?

fizzix_is_fun: I'm in favor of reinstating the draft.

This way public opinion will end the war before the first drafted soldier ever makes it to Iraq. The only reason vietnam ever ended is because drafted soldiers were sent there.

Actualy, Vietnam was ended thanks to other factors as well, such as the Mai Lai Massacre, growing grassroot campaigns against it, and media coverage.

/That last one's a shocker, eh?

This is going to rock. You dumbasses are going to vote yourselves into a body bag. Thank god some stupidity is self correcting.

MindfulModeration: fizzix_is_fun: I'm in favor of reinstating the draft.

This way public opinion will end the war before the first drafted soldier ever makes it to Iraq. The only reason vietnam ever ended is because drafted soldiers were sent there.

Actualy, Vietnam was ended thanks to other factors as well, such as the Mai Lai Massacre, growing grassroot campaigns against it, and media coverage.

/That last one's a shocker, eh?

Yeah and the only way to get honest media coverage is to make sure that your audience has a stake in knowing the truth. The only people who really know what's going on in Iraq are the people who know service members over there, which at this point are coming from the poor sections of society. Make an incentive for the middle-class and upper-class americans to end the war and it'll end. Otherwise, we'll just continue feeding lower-class citizens into it.

Jackpot777: equilibrium: roscotsmalls: I think there's a good deal of merit to the idea of some sort of compulsory service to your country...

Service ensures citizenship. Would you like to know more?

Would you like to know more?

Nice. Don't serve, don't vote. I'm all for that.

Jackpot777: Or say you're a monogamous bisexual; you swing both ways but you don't cheat on who you're with (usually)... but you could definitely see yourself being gay for your fellow soldiers if they return the favor. Honorable discharge faster than you can say "is that discharge papers in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?".

That's the law, but desperation makes the rules a little, well, shaky.

In the 12 years since President Bill Clinton signed into law Public Law 103-160, commonly known as Don't Ask Don't Tell, nearly 10,000 military personnel have been discharged because of their sexual orientation. Those terminated include more than 200 medical specialists and 300 linguists, many of whom were trained as much-needed Arabic translators.

Though the Pentagon defends the policy as necessary to ensure unit cohesion, their seemingly selective application of the policy appears to contradict that rationale.

"It is interesting, but not surprising, to learn that after 9/11, the discharges of lesbian and gay servicemembers began a dramatic decline," said Steve Ralls, Director of Communications for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a non-profit that provides legal services to gays in the military. "In fact, whenever the country is at war, lesbian and gay soldiers are far less likely to be discharged, which undermines the Pentagon's primary rationale for the policy."

"They argue that lesbian and gay soldiers undermine unit cohesion, but never is unit cohesion more important than during wartime," he added. "That discharges under the ban decrease during times of war completely undermines their argument for the necessity of the policy. Since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on America, gay discharges have declined by more than 40 percent."

In a May 2005 study, "Homosexuals and U.S. Military Policy: Current Issues," the Congressional Research Service suggested the steady decline in discharges of gay servicemembers could be attributed to "random fluctuations in the data."

Yet immediately after the 9/11 attacks, Defense Department spokesperson Maj. James P. Cassella told the San Francisco Chronicle that a stop-loss order to temporarily suspend administrative discharges had been authorized, and, although policies regarding discharges would remain in effect, "Commanders would be given enough latitude in this area to apply good judgment and balance the best interests of the service, the unit and the individual involved." (new window)

At this point you could probably be caught fapping to pictures of gootse and wouldn't get a discharge.

shocker66s: Nice. Don't serve, don't vote. I'm all for that.

Aw, look everyone! It's a Federalist!

Shaggy_C: shocker66s: Nice. Don't serve, don't vote. I'm all for that.

Aw, look everyone! It's a Federalist!

No service no running for office. Sweet.

kab: I'm no McCain supporter, but the commentary on this video sure does bring out the conclusion trampoline to jump off of.

Poorly worded answer? Yes.

Most likely he meant to say that he agrees that the current enlisted need to be attended to better? I'll guess that that is a yes.

On the other hand, the fact that he needs to read his well thought out answers off of cards is disturbing.

What part of "I dont disagree with anything you said" leaves room for interpretation?

Jpud73: kab: I'm no McCain supporter, but the commentary on this video sure does bring out the conclusion trampoline to jump off of.

Poorly worded answer? Yes.

Most likely he meant to say that he agrees that the current enlisted need to be attended to better? I'll guess that that is a yes.

On the other hand, the fact that he needs to read his well thought out answers off of cards is disturbing.

What part of "I dont disagree with anything you said" leaves room for interpretation?

The fact that the old lady was rambling and McCain either wasn't paying attention or was just being polite.

/Voting for Obama
//Thinks McCain is a good man with bad policies

MindfulModeration: Jpud73: kab: I'm no McCain supporter, but the commentary on this video sure does bring out the conclusion trampoline to jump off of.

Poorly worded answer? Yes.

Most likely he meant to say that he agrees that the current enlisted need to be attended to better? I'll guess that that is a yes.

On the other hand, the fact that he needs to read his well thought out answers off of cards is disturbing.

What part of "I dont disagree with anything you said" leaves room for interpretation?

The fact that the old lady was rambling and McCain either wasn't paying attention or was just being polite.

/Voting for Obama
//Thinks McCain is a good man with bad policies

You can be polite without saying "I dont disagree with anything you said". and if McCain cant focus long enough to get through an old lady's rambling question, maybe he doesn't have the focus to be president.

/Voting for Obama too
//used to think McCain was a good man, until he traded in his beliefs for those of the neocons.

I imagine the only time a draft would be even remotely needed is if we got into a fight with Russia or China. Lets use a hypothetical Russian attack on Poland or the Ukraine. Are we simply going to stand by and do nothing, or are are lives worth sacrificing to ensure that a people have the right to be free?

People love to talk about the "Global Village" and how we are all one people.......until it comes time to risk your life for those people.....then, predictably, most turn their back and say that it's none of their business.

Faraii: I imagine the only time a draft would be even remotely needed is if we got into a fight with Russia or China. Lets use a hypothetical Russian attack on Poland or the Ukraine. Are we simply going to stand by and do nothing, or are are lives worth sacrificing to ensure that a people have the right to be free?

People love to talk about the "Global Village" and how we are all one people.......until it comes time to risk your life for those people.....then, predictably, most turn their back and say that it's none of their business.

I love those Free Tibet stickers on a hippy bus.

Faraii: I imagine the only time a draft would be even remotely needed is if we got into a fight with Russia or China. Lets use a hypothetical Russian attack on Poland or the Ukraine. Are we simply going to stand by and do nothing, or are are lives worth sacrificing to ensure that a people have the right to be free?

And just think....if we never invaded Iraq on false pretenses, we wouldn't have to worry, because our military would have been ready to handle a real situation like you described.

You know we have been sending our national guardsmen over to Iraq, right? Its not like we have an excess of troops at the moment. McCain wants to expand our military in Afghanistan too. Draft could be possible.

MindfulModeration:

/BTW, In Troopers, they didn't really force you to serve, it was just the only real viable way to be recognised as a citizen, and thus, vote.

I bet I'm gonna fark up the spelling, but it's pretty close to a 'hobson's choice.' You can take the choice they offer you, or get butt-fark nothing. Not really a choice, in other words.

/Love America, or Die! - another hobbie
//Cake or Death! - I'll take the cake.

Mccain, An Uncle Tom for us Whiteys!!!

Shaggy_C: Jackpot777: Or say you're a monogamous bisexual; you swing both ways but you don't cheat on who you're with (usually)... but you could definitely see yourself being gay for your fellow soldiers if they return the favor. Honorable discharge faster than you can say "is that discharge papers in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?".

That's the law, but desperation makes the rules a little, well, shaky.

In the 12 years since President Bill Clinton signed into law Public Law 103-160, commonly known as Don't Ask Don't Tell, nearly 10,000 military personnel have been discharged because of their sexual orientation. Those terminated include more than 200 medical specialists and 300 linguists, many of whom were trained as much-needed Arabic translators.

Though the Pentagon defends the policy as necessary to ensure unit cohesion, their seemingly selective application of the policy appears to contradict that rationale.

"It is interesting, but not surprising, to learn that after 9/11, the discharges of lesbian and gay servicemembers began a dramatic decline," said Steve Ralls, Director of Communications for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a non-profit that provides legal services to gays in the military. "In fact, whenever the country is at war, lesbian and gay soldiers are far less likely to be discharged, which undermines the Pentagon's primary rationale for the policy."

"They argue that lesbian and gay soldiers undermine unit cohesion, but never is unit cohesion more important than during wartime," he added. "That discharges under the ban decrease during times of war completely undermines their argument for the necessity of the policy. Since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on America, gay discharges have declined by more than 40 percent."

In a May 2005 study, "Homosexuals and U.S. Military Policy: Current Issues," the Congressional Research Service suggested the steady decline in discharges of gay servicemembers could be attributed to "random fluctuations in the data."

Yet immediately after the 9/11 attacks, Defense Department spokesperson Maj. James P. Cassella told the San Francisco Chronicle that a stop-loss order to temporarily suspend administrative discharges had been authorized, and, although policies regarding discharges would remain in effect, "Commanders would be given enough latitude in this area to apply good judgment and balance the best interests of the service, the unit and the individual involved." (new window)

At this point you could probably be caught fapping to pictures of gootse and wouldn't get a discharge.

That's because there's a stop-loss program.

You reinstate the draft, you've stopped the loss. Lots of new recruits.

What's the problem? I thought democrats were all for reinstating the draft (new window).

globalwarmingpraiser: MindfulModeration: Being a new 18 year old, I can't exactly say this is comforting, but then again, I wasn't planning on voting for McCain. Still, the idea of serving in the military terrifies me, and dying especially so. I suppose I could file as a conciencious objector though. Hell if things get really farked up, Canada's another option, though I'd hate myself for doing it. I love America, but I dont want to get shot to prove it.

/or blown up
//srsly, IEDs suck.

Is there anything you consider worth dying for? Anything you consider bigger than yourself? If not I am sorry.

Certainly not some farked up war in Iraq or any other myriad of wars that would probably happen if McCain took power.

Flab: Are you a rich investor? Do you possess skills that can't be found in Canada and have already secured a job with a Canadian company? No? Sorry. We don't want you.

There's a small army (Pun Intended) of hippies here in Toronto that DO want you, if the posters I see everywhere are any indication. Hell my mom would let you stay at her place.

But believe me you don't want to stay there. Reliving the sixties by anecdote is slow torture. Better you pick up your rifle and go.

Go ahead... I'm too old to be drafted now so I don't give a shiat.

Sucks for you kids but at least you'll have somewhere else to be other than on my lawn.

justoneznot: What's the problem? I thought democrats were all for reinstating the draft (new window).

I love the line from that:

"Those who love this country have a patriotic obligation to defend this country," Rangel said. "For those who say the poor fight better, I say give the rich a chance.

The draft actually sounds better if it was done that way O.o