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(CNN)   Russia, on Georgia withdrawl: "If I would ask you in response to the same question how fast the American forces can leave Iraq, for example, the answer would be as soon as we have guarantees for peace and security there"   (cnn.com ) divider line
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7454 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Aug 2008 at 5:04 PM (7 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-08-17 05:07:26 PM  

inebriated brain: you obviously forget when they kicked inspectors out in 1998. Yeah wingnuts will call it wagging the dog, but Clinton's response was not harsh enough. So from 1998 to 2002, Saddam had free reign to do whatever.


And he apparently didn't do shiat.
 
2008-08-17 05:09:03 PM  
Georgian withdrawl.
 
2008-08-17 05:09:21 PM  

DistendedPendulusFrenulum: hubiestubert:

Also to the point is the Russians' fooling around once in there, and doing lots of stuff that probably wasn't necessary, and of course the foot-dragging about getting out.

We like the idea of the Georgian pipeline because it means the West in general can buy energy from the Caspian region without having to do business with the Russians--and that the Russians can't arbitrarily cut it off, which they do to Ukraine when it doesn't play by their rules.

What the Russians are saying is that they can indeed cut off exports via Georgia, with the same caprice and impunity that Bush exercised with just about every legal norm imaginable while in office, and all they gotta do when questioned about it is draw a parallel to something Dear Leader did..


Pretty much. The Russians have been paranoid about the security of the region for a LONG while. This isn't new. What is new is that admitting former Warsaw pact countries into NATO, and moving in proposed weapons systems into the region, after a fairly long period--by Condi Rice's own admission--of a stand down, it has made Russia rethink its role and needs.

Condi liked the idea of a passive Russia, while doing a dang lot to shove sand in their faces, and we expected this would just go on forever? Especially after Pootie-Poot and GW looked into each others' souls?

We have been poking a nation that has been paranoid about their security, and not without some reason given their history, and we dare to be surprised? They are playing hardball, and always have--and we can cluck our tongues at it, or we can accept that the Russians are NOT necessarily cuddly kittens and treat them as if they might have concerns of their own as well.

Dismissing and encircling them--knowing our history, and knowing their concerns--economically and militarily, we're surprised? Condi is supposedly an expert on Russia, and she dares to be surprised?
 
2008-08-17 05:10:10 PM  

Norad: That's a brilliant farking answer, right there.


It's not because Georgie is a sovereign democratic state. Saddam or despotic dictators of the like didn't rule there.
 
2008-08-17 05:11:43 PM  

FreeLoveFreeway: It's not because Georgie is a sovereign democratic state. Saddam or despotic dictators of the like didn't rule there.


If it's sovereign, it doesn't matter if the ruler is a democratically elected executive, a monarch or a despot. Sovereign is sovereign is sovereign.
 
2008-08-17 05:13:22 PM  
There no equivalence to the two situations, but it doesn't matter. Russia is just serving us the same type of bullshiat Bush fed the rest of the world. See how it tastes?
 
2008-08-17 05:13:29 PM  
I'm not saying the US is morally in the right by being in Iraq, but there is a distinction to be drawn between that situation and using the old "you did it, so we can to" chestnut to justify an authoritarian regime bulldozing a neighbor that doesn't like it.
 
2008-08-17 05:13:56 PM  
hubiestubert: I'm not defending the action as the action of a compassionate nation, but from the standpoint of folks who supposedly love freedom and the democratic process, one might think that the Georgians denying the vote of the Ossetians, and the subsequent break of a ceasefire to get their tanks into position, I'm just saying that maybe the reaction by a good many folks is a bit knee jerk to support the peace loving people of Georgia--you know, the ones who got caught with their tanks on the field, breaking their own ceasefire...

The point is, Georgia didn't break the treaty--South Ossetia did. Russia was NOT living up to its treaty obligations, otherwise it would have attacked South Ossetia. Of course, controlling an already pro-Russian slice of land is not nearly as beneficial as controlling the entire pie.

As far as the South Ossetians "voting" to secede from Georgia...it was an absurdity. It was as absurd as the Southerners in the U.S. who thought the Union would be all sunshine and puppies about its withdrawal. Are you saying anyone who did not support the withdrawal of the Southern States is not freedom loving and democratic?
 
2008-08-17 05:14:01 PM  
media1.break.com
 
2008-08-17 05:14:24 PM  

kronicfeld: FreeLoveFreeway: It's not because Georgie is a sovereign democratic state. Saddam or despotic dictators of the like didn't rule there.

If it's sovereign, it doesn't matter if the ruler is a democratically elected executive, a monarch or a despot. Sovereign is sovereign is sovereign.


Not according to our own Ambassador. It's unconscionable to invade sovereign nations IN EUROPE. It's a nice qualifier.
 
2008-08-17 05:14:36 PM  

kronicfeld: And he apparently didn't do shiat


yeah okay.
farm3.static.flickr.com

they hid fighter jets in the desert, why in gods name would he hide or move WMDS?

I must be some kind of idiot. >:/
 
2008-08-17 05:15:37 PM  

flavor of the month: inebriated brain: Similar to the delusions that Iraq and Georgia have any valid comparison whatsoever.

you're right. georgia actually attacked south ossetia.


Which UN resolution did Georgia violate? And for how many years running?
 
2008-08-17 05:16:20 PM  
It's a cute answer, but it's not particularly relevant considering that

(a) providing 'peace and security' throughout Georgia isn't a part of their mandate as 'peacekeepers' -- just around Abkhazia and S. Ossetia, with UNOMIG observers

(b) both the Russians and the Georgians signed a cease-fire agreement that explicitly calls for all military activity to cease and to withdraw troops back to pre-conflict positions.

So, it's cute but irrelevant.
 
2008-08-17 05:16:35 PM  
I seem to recall quite a long time ago reading about the cleverness of issuing Russian passports to residents of South Ossetia. The story was that it enabled them to work in Russia. Now, of course, we see the real reason: Russia can decide to "protect" these people by splitting Ossetia off from Georgia. It seems to me thr there is one and only one principle to remember where Russia is involved: Russia is opportunist and expansionist, and not particularly subtle about it.
 
2008-08-17 05:17:24 PM  
Other than the Georgians, and maybe SOME Russians, does anyone give a flipping fark about that whole situation?


I thought not.
 
2008-08-17 05:17:58 PM  

inebriated brain:
you obviously forget when they kicked inspectors out in 1998. Yeah wingnuts will call it wagging the dog, but Clinton's response was not harsh enough. So from 1998 to 2002, Saddam had free reign to do whatever.


You are factually wrong. Saddam didn't kick the inspectors out in 1998, Clinton pulled the inspectors out of Iraq before he started bombing.

Second, After the UN and Congressional resolutions passed, Saddam opened up more of Iraq to UN Inspectors than under the previous agreement. And those inspectors were pretty much found nothing worth an invasion over.
 
2008-08-17 05:18:57 PM  
Angry hand, thats a fake right? lmao
 
2008-08-17 05:19:06 PM  
Georgia
Area
Total 69,700 km² (121st)
26,916 sq mi
Population
2008 estimate 4,630,8413 (115th)
Density 66/km² (132)

Iraq
Area
Total 438,317 km² (58th)
169,234 sq mi
Population
2007 estimate 29,267,0004 (39th)
Density 66/km² (125th)

Not quite the same....
 
2008-08-17 05:19:29 PM  
Don't forget poland.
 
2008-08-17 05:19:38 PM  

inebriated brain: Should W have let the inspections play out longer under 1441. No. The end result would have been the same, war. We allowed way to much time to pass as it was since he kicked the inspectors out.


Inspections were still taking place immediately before the war but before Hans Blix could give a conclusive report which categorically stated IRAQ HAS NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION Bush decided to go to war and the inspectors had to pull out.

If people were certain there was no threat the war would have been even more unpopular there would have been no European allies to help.
 
2008-08-17 05:19:39 PM  
Is this the thread where the Bush-fellators tell us that the US should be given cookies and praise for invading sovereign nations, but Russians are evil commies for doing the same?

Yeah, I thought so.
Carry on.
 
2008-08-17 05:20:15 PM  

Whodat?: I'm not saying the US is morally in the right by being in Iraq, but there is a distinction to be drawn between that situation and using the old "you did it, so we can to" chestnut to justify an authoritarian regime bulldozing a neighbor that doesn't like it.


But but but Clinton!
 
2008-08-17 05:20:15 PM  

inebriated brain: kronicfeld: And he apparently didn't do shiat

yeah okay.


they hid fighter jets in the desert, why in gods name would he hide or move WMDS?

I must be some kind of idiot. >:/



Yeah, you are some kind of idiot. There were NO WMD found in Iraq! Don't you think they tried really really really hard to find them after the invasion was complete?

Even the White house admitted there were no WMD. So please, stop.
 
2008-08-17 05:20:41 PM  
This About That:

If you were wondering why the Ossetians prefer the Russians to the Georgians, you should know that the Russians bribe them (and the Abhkaz) with natural gas and electricity.

Now, if the power lines came in from Turkey. . .

.
 
2008-08-17 05:20:59 PM  
This About That

Russia is opportunist and expansionist, and not particularly subtle about it.

Who is though? Whether it be through outright military force or trade and/or aid treaties with very particular guarantees there isn't a major world power on this planet that isn't opportunist or expansionist.
 
2008-08-17 05:21:09 PM  
Nobody wants to think they're the bad guy. And no one believes their opinion is wrong (otherwise they would get a new one...)

But it shows the perception that the head of the Russian parliament's foreign affairs committee has. Actually he's trying to build a bridge with empathy. (I built one out of leggos and peanut butter once...actually I didn't.. but if I did it would be sweeeeeeeet)
 
rka
2008-08-17 05:21:41 PM  

verbal_jizm: inebriated brain: Very unilateral huh?

As opposed to the coalition of the countries that want to suck off the US teat so they'll go into any war with a thousand or less troops to make it appear multilateral.


Farking Australians. GET OFF MY TEAT!
 
2008-08-17 05:22:19 PM  

panzerfaustbob: does anyone give a flipping fark


Well, only insofar as this is confirmation that Russian politicians are arrogant, dangerous bullies, and, possibly, even dirtier than ours. Stuff like this could cause the resumption of the Cold War. I guess I, for one, would care about that.
 
2008-08-17 05:22:28 PM  

inebriated brain: Okay having taken the time. ALL nations are democratic republics in some fashion. Therefore all forces in Iraq are indeed fighting in the name of freedom of the Iraqi people.


Freedom of the Iraqi people? Unless Freedom is another word for death, you've got it very, very, very wrong.
 
2008-08-17 05:22:52 PM  
So you guys think the invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Georgia equate with the U.S in Iraq. I think your history teachers should be fired for malpractice.

By the way the Czech president is putting the blame on both sides, both for Georgia for starting it and Russia for escalating it, and explicitly said it cannot be compared to "Prague Spring", as the Czechs didn't invade anyway.
 
2008-08-17 05:23:05 PM  

panzerfaustbob: Other than the Georgians, and maybe SOME Russians, does anyone give a flipping fark about that whole situation?


I thought not.


I do. It's far bigger than little Georgia. Again, Azerbaijan and the 5 "Stans" are all cut off from western trade. Europe gets 30% of their natural gas through those pipelines to the west. All shut off as we speak. It's going to be a cold winter in Europe if this is allowed to continue.

The Russians are barbarians and they have historically been expansionist. Guess what?...They'rrrre Baaaacccckkkkkk and I would bet Ukraine is next. Consider the season, they have about a 60 day window before the snows come.
 
2008-08-17 05:24:00 PM  
img210.imageshack.us
 
2008-08-17 05:24:13 PM  

uatuba: The point is, Georgia didn't break the treaty--South Ossetia did. Russia was NOT living up to its treaty obligations, otherwise it would have attacked South Ossetia. Of course, controlling an already pro-Russian slice of land is not nearly as beneficial as controlling the entire pie.

As far as the South Ossetians "voting" to secede from Georgia...it was an absurdity. It was as absurd as the Southerners in the U.S. who thought the Union would be all sunshine and puppies about its withdrawal. Are you saying anyone who did not support the withdrawal of the Southern States is not freedom loving and democratic?


Actually, there is a lot of question about the treaty breaking. The Ossetians claim persecution and response to it. The Georgians claim the separatists attacked first. This has been going on for a while now, not just recently.

The difference being, that the Georgians massed tanks and artillery--which was a much more blatant act.

Your analogy might fit better, if the Southerners had been coerced into the Union in the first place--and had been calling for their independence for better than a hundred years. And had the Union roll in to burn towns and churches as a response to their political action, necessitating intervention by the UK to secure peace in the region.

Using the American South is a poor analogy at best. The Ossetians have been trying for local control since before the Bolshevik Revolution. This is NOT a sudden or new sort of conflict, and despite what a lot of folks might like you to believe, the Russians didn't exactly have to to "instigate" much consider how tensions have been in the area since the 1800s.
 
2008-08-17 05:24:20 PM  
Do as we say not as we do Ruskie!
 
2008-08-17 05:25:21 PM  
Simmer down everyone, Russia is the North Korea of 2008. Give it a couple of months and this will be a non-story.
 
2008-08-17 05:25:41 PM  

Baby Diego: This About That

Russia is opportunist and expansionist, and not particularly subtle about it.

Who is though? Whether it be through outright military force or trade and/or aid treaties with very particular guarantees there isn't a major world power on this planet that isn't opportunist or expansionist.


Whoever controls the energy, controls the planet.
 
2008-08-17 05:25:43 PM  
inebriated brainkronicfeld:

Remind me who Saddam blew up in the last, say, 16 years.

Year 2008 -16 years = 1992 - present. 1991-2003 Iraq under UN security council enforcement of north and south no fly zones. 2003 to present.. well we all know.


The no fly zones had nothing to do with the UNSC. They were a separate action by the US and Britain.
 
2008-08-17 05:26:06 PM  
More Russians and Georgians have probably died than South Ossetians by Georgia in this war.
 
2008-08-17 05:26:52 PM  
This thread is a
farm1.static.flickr.com

/that is all
 
2008-08-17 05:27:51 PM  

Mohammad I'm Hard Bruce Lee: Simmer down everyone, Russia is the North Korea of 2008. Give it a couple of months and this will be a non-story.


yea..we'll be on to tabulating Ukrainian casualties on the steps. Nobody will remember little Georgia.
 
2008-08-17 05:28:25 PM  
"They're doing it, too!" Yeah assholes. Thing is it doesn't make what you're doing right.
 
2008-08-17 05:28:57 PM  
GaryPDX

The Russians __________ are barbarians and they have historically been expansionist.

Romans, Mongols, Japanese, Chinese, Americans, British, German, French...

Who isn't expansionist? Admittedly there's a heavy-handedness that the Russians are using here that seems out-of-place in the 21st century but, again, who isn't expansionist?

Who doesn't try to grow their sphere of influence for economic and political gains?

/is heavy-handedness really out of place in this century?
 
2008-08-17 05:29:14 PM  
A 19 year old girl who has sex with a 15 year old boy is a "rapist." Now that family of the moron-boy-who-wasn't-raped-but-told-on-himself doesn't want this horrible abuser raising the grandchild.

That's it! Stop right there! Ohio is now on the nationwide list of people to be sterilized at birth. If breathing wasn't an involuntary function, these farking idiots would suffocate.
 
2008-08-17 05:29:46 PM  

inebriated brain: Appearance of? The numbers they send are irrelevant.


You fail at math. Go back to 4th grade. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

This kind of "thinking" is why we ran more than half a trillion dollars into the hole this year.
 
rka
2008-08-17 05:29:48 PM  

GaryPDX: I do. It's far bigger than little Georgia. Again, Azerbaijan and the 5 "Stans" are all cut off from western trade. Europe gets 30% of their natural gas through those pipelines to the west. All shut off as we speak. It's going to be a cold winter in Europe if this is allowed to continue.


Again, why should the US care if Europe has to burn a few extra cords of wood this year?

If they want it so bad...THEY can kick Russia out. What about that great European diplomacy we hear so much about. How's that going?

The Russians are barbarians and they have historically been expansionist.

Unless they're coming across the Bering Strait into Alaska, I could give fark all.
 
2008-08-17 05:29:48 PM  
"Russian troops will leave Georgia sooner or later, depending on Georgia's behavior". Georgia last seen sulking in its bedroom, upset at being grounded for at least another month.
 
2008-08-17 05:29:57 PM  

This About That: panzerfaustbob: does anyone give a flipping fark

Well, only insofar as this is confirmation that Russian politicians are arrogant, dangerous bullies, and, possibly, even dirtier than ours. Stuff like this could cause the resumption of the Cold War. I guess I, for one, would care about that.


In a good year, Russia might spend 25-30 billion on 'defense'. France, UK, Germany, and even Italy spend as much or more. Then you bring the US into the picture, with our 400 billion dollars a year, and I just don't see the 3rd Shock Army heading for the Rhine any time soon.

The situation will get play because politicians like 'scary' enemies they can point at, and the Russians are PERFECT enemies, because they are white and the media doesn't have to worry about offending sensibilities, but that doesn't actually make them a noteworthy threat.
 
2008-08-17 05:30:07 PM  

BunkyBrewman: This thread is a


/that is all


SWEET
 
2008-08-17 05:30:09 PM  

Korovyov: It's a cute answer, but it's not particularly relevant considering that

(a) providing 'peace and security' throughout Georgia isn't a part of their mandate as 'peacekeepers' -- just around Abkhazia and S. Ossetia, with UNOMIG observers

(b) both the Russians and the Georgians signed a cease-fire agreement that explicitly calls for all military activity to cease and to withdraw troops back to pre-conflict positions.

So, it's cute but irrelevant.


It's the Russians making a point. And one that the US State Department seems oblivious to. We keep encircling the Russians both economically and militarily, and we're surprised they shove back?

We've been playing hardball with them for a while, and trying to couch it in flowery terms, and they've given a surprising amount of ground, for a surprising amount of time. To be honest, I'm surprised that Georgia didn't erupt a year and a half ago.
 
2008-08-17 05:30:36 PM  
Sorry GaryPDX, didn't refresh to see you actually responded to me while I was responding to you.
 
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