Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Boston Globe)   Drug companies warn Massachusetts governor that they will leave state if he signs bill prohibiting them from bribing doctors   (boston.com) divider line 202
    More: Interesting  
•       •       •

10638 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Aug 2008 at 1:27 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



202 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all
 
2008-08-08 02:24:30 PM  
Aarontology: what_now: /has no idea why ANYONE would be opposed to a casino in Mass!

Well, I'm a resident of Connecticut so I have a purely selfish reason of not wanting the competition for Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods.


I should have been more clear: I have no idea why any RESIDENTS OF MASS would be opposed to a casino.
 
2008-08-08 02:24:34 PM  

Pretty shabby sentiment from an industry that's supposed to be so ethical and looking out for the public interest. Remember this next time the heart-rending drug commrcial plays on TV... They're so concerned about our health and well-being!

"If we can't bribe doctors, we're gonna leave."


Well, I live here, born and raised, and have one though for the drug companies. " Get the fark out!
 
2008-08-08 02:24:37 PM  
What people are missing is that this law is only for reporting purposes. Maybe down the road they'll ban the practice, but right now the requirement is that anything >$50 is reported.
 
2008-08-08 02:25:14 PM  
Fecacacophany:

THE WORLD NEEDS DRUG COMPANY PENS!!!


I read that as "the world needs drug company penIs" and thought you were a shill for Pfizer
 
2008-08-08 02:26:00 PM  
Lipitor was pushed on me harder than a Tokyo subway's commuters backside during rush hour.

The perfect lab numbers that came back from the blood test were a crushing disappointment to that Doctor's bottom line.

I will do my own pharmaceutical research from now on, thank you very much.
 
2008-08-08 02:26:01 PM  
Holden C: Best thing to keep drug companies in line:
1) Allow the government to negotiate pricing (Bushies nixed that in their Medicare part D plan and it's costing all of us tens of millions)
2) Ban TV advertising (U.S. and New Zealand are the only countries in the world allowing this)
3) Don't necessarily limit reasonable gifts (hey people, sales are a part of capitalism), but make it ALL reportable. Shame works.


I agree with your paln in principle, but I would suggest that there be an allowance for small gifts (no more than $20-50 in value). A physician shouln't have to fill out a form for accepting a couple clipboards and a box of pens (especially when these are usually used by patients in the waiting room), but they should be required to report big-ticket things, meals at nice restaurants, game tickets.
 
2008-08-08 02:26:08 PM  
This probably has more to do with taxing said gifts than it does regulating them.
 
2008-08-08 02:27:07 PM  
Why else do you think most drug companies are in Jersey or Philly? We're perfectly fine with corruption and kick backs. It's on the state flags.
 
2008-08-08 02:27:57 PM  
Deval caved to the police unions regarding details, so...well, we'll just have to see.
 
2008-08-08 02:28:39 PM  
I used to deliver pizzas when I was younger, and the pharma guys would always order up a couple of hundred dollars worth of stuff for the docs and nurses every coupla weeks or so. Always loved the thought of it taking free food for someone to recommend your product.

At least they tipped well usually.

/has no problem with Deval
//and I'm Pro-LNG, sorry keylock
 
2008-08-08 02:30:09 PM  
doublesecretprobation: the point is, the majority of people aren't giving their money to bookies in the backroom of some bar in southie. they are doing their gambling at liquor stores and 7-11's. the state is making enough money off of them, stop trying to bleed them dry for farks sake. we don't need more infrastructure meant to tax us, we need more jobs.

Ok, that makes more sense. But your last point, "we need more jobs", like building, maintaining and staffing a giant resort? Jobs like those?

If your objections to gambling are about the human costs, well people will gamble anyway, as you yourself pointed out.

There is NO downside to this.
 
2008-08-08 02:30:20 PM  
what_now: Aarontology: what_now: /has no idea why ANYONE would be opposed to a casino in Mass!

Well, I'm a resident of Connecticut so I have a purely selfish reason of not wanting the competition for Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods.

I should have been more clear: I have no idea why any RESIDENTS OF MASS would be opposed to a casino.


Then I have no idea at all either. Aside from the old argument of gambling being immoral and such.
 
2008-08-08 02:30:42 PM  
logruszed: MadAsshatter: KoalaFace: It add up to many millions of dollars a year spent on...nothing. It is another form of advertising that really hurts the average person who doesn't have insurance.

How so?

Because the preeminence of name brand drugs works to displace equally efficacious generics.

I don't know how often you go to the doctor, or how closely you pay attention if you do get a lot pf prescriptions but many, if not most, Md's will give you brand-name samples of drugs that are often easily found in generic forms (a lot cheaper), depending on state laws they might not even tell you there is a generic variant or even write a scrip for the name-brand version. But even if they don't many many consumers will ask for the product they got the free sample version of.

This happens a whole lot with psychiatric medications because most people take a lot of different drugs until they find the one that works for them, and psychiatric drugs can be incredibly expensive (Lamictal, for example, runs around $400 a month for moderate doses).

Now even if you're insured there is a good chance that you have the right to request the name-brand drug from the pharmacist. So while your co-pay might be ten bux either way the insurance company will be paying the higher dollar amount. This means higher premiums passed back to you.


Which is why anytime I go to get the Rx filled, I ask for the generic, if available. That aside, most doctors aren't going to research every generic available, they just write the name brand Rx on the sheet.
 
2008-08-08 02:33:35 PM  
Galileo's Daughter: 1proudneocon: It's marketing and advertisement, not bribery.

Imagine what medical advances could be made if the money spent on marketing was diverted to R&D.


A huge amount already is. The problem is, you come up with about 20 viable drugs a year, of which 5 may see clinical trials and 2 may go to the public. So for the 10000 you came up with that year two went public five years later. It's just a huge gap they need to make up for with massive advertising.
 
2008-08-08 02:33:37 PM  
Any other tech nerds noticing large industries co-opting the phrase "chilling effect"? Its bugging the hell out of me. I saw it in response to the Comcast traffic throttling ruling and now in this article.
 
2008-08-08 02:34:05 PM  
MadAsshatter:

Which is why anytime I go to get the Rx filled, I ask for the generic, if available. That aside, most doctors aren't going to research every generic available, they just write the name brand Rx on the sheet.


That's great for you, but consumer protection and advocacy isn't about protecting informed people, it's about protecting uninformed people.

I don't send money to the son of the former prime minister of Nigeria, but that does not mean that those attempts to get me to do so should be legal.
 
2008-08-08 02:34:58 PM  
When I worked in a lab complex, salespeople were always giving me free shiat, and usually getting me something cool around Christmas, like coffee beans, wine, Kahlua, stuff like that.
 
2008-08-08 02:35:59 PM  
malibupetey: The perfect lab numbers that came back from the blood test were a crushing disappointment to that Doctor's bottom line.

Why, do you buy your drugs from your Doc? Lipitor is a statin drug and available as a generic at WalMart for $4. You fail at logic, but congrats on the low cholesterol.
 
2008-08-08 02:36:01 PM  
keylock71
what_now:

/has no idea why ANYONE would be opposed to a casino in Mass!

Rich folks and Yuppies who don't want the riff-raff of the commonwealth stepping foot in their little hamlets?

The same folks who are opposed to re-establishing rail service to the South Coast...


Wait, are you saying the Fall River/New Bedford/Middleboro/Lakeville/Bridgewater area is affluent? It's been my experience that those communities are mostly lower/middle class.
 
2008-08-08 02:37:42 PM  
I hope the Gov. does not cave. Let's send a message to all the sleazy 'give us what we want or we'll leave' companies to get the hell out. See how your company prospers in some 3rd world trash can because no one in Europe is going to put up with your crap, and you'll have to pay REAL taxes there. We can make some room for some good companies to grow here then.
 
2008-08-08 02:37:43 PM  
what_now: If your objections to gambling are about the human costs, well people will gamble anyway, as you yourself pointed out.

There is NO downside to this.


the only reason they want to do this is because it's a license to print money. they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think they could get people to gamble more. it's not a matter of competition, the state would only be competing with itself. they wouldn't be doing it if they thought they wouldn't be soaking the citizens for even more of their money.

the state doesn't need bring in more money, it needs to SPEND LESS. we can start by putting an end to state police at construction sites and use flagmen like the other 49 states do, and then we can repeal that contract that let's them earn vacation time by writing tickets.
 
2008-08-08 02:37:54 PM  
Various drug reps show up at the clinic across the street from my work every day and bring them lunch. Olive Garden, Chilis, etc...

Every

Single

Day
 
2008-08-08 02:37:57 PM  
x8a.xanga.com


Well...bye.
 
2008-08-08 02:39:29 PM  
logruszed: MadAsshatter:

Which is why anytime I go to get the Rx filled, I ask for the generic, if available. That aside, most doctors aren't going to research every generic available, they just write the name brand Rx on the sheet.

That's great for you, but consumer protection and advocacy isn't about protecting informed people, it's about protecting uninformed people.

I don't send money to the son of the former prime minister of Nigeria, but that does not mean that those attempts to get me to do so should be legal.


Of course not, but what do you suggest? That the doctor look up what the generic is? I don't understand how drug companies taking doctors out to lunch makes a difference in this. Besides, its as much the pharmacists job to recommend a generic as it is the doctor.
 
2008-08-08 02:40:04 PM  
hitlersbrain: I hope the Gov. does not cave. Let's send a message to all the sleazy 'give us what we want or we'll leave' companies to get the hell out. See how your company prospers in some 3rd world trash can because no one in Europe is going to put up with your crap, and you'll have to pay REAL taxes there. We can make some room for some good companies to grow here then.

Yeah they don't have to leave America to produce their drugs. They'll probably just go south or to Jersey with the rest of pharm crowd. Trust me it will still be manufactured in the US. It has to be for FDA approval and regulation, the research, well that's a different story.
 
2008-08-08 02:40:18 PM  
I highly doubt that banning free pens will fix health care........
 
2008-08-08 02:40:49 PM  
wage0048: NikolaiFarkoff: Beck Bristow: The man is a mover and a shaker

Cheap furniture relocation with a side of religious humility and solid work ethic. Good combo.

For the Win. Wow.


$10,000 damamnsk drapes is not a cheap furniture relocation. Making calls for Ameriquest is not a solid work ethic.
 
2008-08-08 02:41:11 PM  
unpolloloco: I highly doubt that banning free pens will fix health care........

No one is banning a damned thing. They're mandating that gifts be reported. If all it is is free pens then what are they afraid of?
 
2008-08-08 02:43:48 PM  
tlchwi02: Restless

Seconded
 
2008-08-08 02:45:01 PM  
Psumek: hitlersbrain: I hope the Gov. does not cave. Let's send a message to all the sleazy 'give us what we want or we'll leave' companies to get the hell out. See how your company prospers in some 3rd world trash can because no one in Europe is going to put up with your crap, and you'll have to pay REAL taxes there. We can make some room for some good companies to grow here then.

Yeah they don't have to leave America to produce their drugs. They'll probably just go south or to Jersey with the rest of pharm crowd. Trust me it will still be manufactured in the US. It has to be for FDA approval and regulation, the research, well that's a different story.


I doubt that they'll head to Jersey--too much already invested, and far too much staff already in place. That kind of uproot may play well to the board room, but in practice, they'll lose a lot of staff, they'll lose a lot of research, they'll lose a lot of time, and they'll lose a position in the market while they restructure.

Sure, they can shift over slowly, but in the mean time, they'll still have to do business in Mass, and with that sort of environment, they'll suffer even more.

Are there pols who will cave? Certainly, but this is the sort of brinksmanship that the Mass market has played for a while.
 
2008-08-08 02:45:09 PM  
Nestea Plunge: C,mon. Who hasn't had their dick sucked by a busty "drug rep".

/Signs up for Med School...
 
2008-08-08 02:49:59 PM  
My last doctors appointment:

Doc was so hyped cause the day before the drug companies
took him and 5 colleagues(?) to Texas Motor Speedway.

Gave them a short course on safty,yaada, yaada and turned them
loose for 5 laps

I thought I was going to reccommend a depressent to my doc to get him off the ceiling....

Psst Doc forget the drug companies coming every 5 min, lets do some weed and hit the lake!
 
2008-08-08 02:51:59 PM  
patrick767: Prediction: He'll cave.

Problem: This legislation is the right thing to do and every state should do it. Medical practice has been compromised for too long by a drug industry that bribes the doctors to recommend their medicines. It farking sucks.


case in point: it is widely accepted that diuretics(waterpills) are the most cost effective ways to fight high blood pressure with solid results(generic prescription costs like 5 bux a mont). so doctors never prescribe diuretics. they prescribe drugs at are not in generic form like cardizem and diovan(which has a diuretic component but is coupled with something else so it costs you 40$+ after insurance)

do your own research and ask for your own prescription after you get a diagnosis and you'll save yourself countless dollars
 
2008-08-08 02:53:19 PM  
mofomisfit: keylock71
what_now:

/has no idea why ANYONE would be opposed to a casino in Mass!

Rich folks and Yuppies who don't want the riff-raff of the commonwealth stepping foot in their little hamlets?

The same folks who are opposed to re-establishing rail service to the South Coast...

Wait, are you saying the Fall River/New Bedford/Middleboro/Lakeville/Bridgewater area is affluent? It's been my experience that those communities are mostly lower/middle class.


No, I was referring to the towns and communities between Boston and the South Coast... The ones that have made the most stink about the proposed rail line. I seem to remember one of the town councilors saying something along the lines of, "Fall River and New Bedford are full of immigrants that can't speak english anyway, so how are they going to get a job in Boston?" (paraphrased)... can't remember where he was from off the top of my head, but it was one of the towns that would have the rail line running through their area.
 
2008-08-08 02:56:07 PM  
MadAsshatter:

Of course not, but what do you suggest? That the doctor look up what the generic is? I don't understand how drug companies taking doctors out to lunch makes a difference in this. Besides, its as much the pharmacists job to recommend a generic as it is the doctor.


Knowing the generic is no different than knowing the brand name, in fact it is usually easier since one generic can be re-branded multiple times but they all come down to the same base generic formula.

What I suggest is eliminating the incentive for doctors to push whatever drug the rep has bribed them to push. That is what it is, a drug rep's job is to get the MD to recommend the brand/product he or she is being paid to rep. Even pens and stationary can constitute a dollar amount to a doctor's office if he or she is in private practice, particularly GPs' who are usually at or near the bottom rung of income for doctors and have to lay out all the overhead for office crap themselves. I'll relate it to a historic anecdote: Year ago when there were a lot more independant little stores that sold candy, soda, etc someone at either Coke or Pepsi got the bright idea to go to these stores and tell the owners "Hey, I know that it costs a lot of money to put in nice new refrigeration units. So here's what I'll do for you. I'll buy you all your new refrigeration but you can only fill it with Coke/Pepsi. you're still selling soda and nobody really cares that much about the difference and you save thousands of bucks." The end result? I can't get Nehi for 20 years, because they couldn't compete with the big guys in the bribery department, until they get bought out by one of the big two and now they don't make any of the good flavors.

There is absolutely no difference between a pharm rep and a DC lobbyist. We all know that lobbying is corrupt, nobody would be arguing this fact if that was the topic at hand but for some reason people are defending the kind of lobbying activity when, in reality, this kind of stuff has a much more real and immidiate effect on the average citizen than most of the shiat that goes on in DC.
 
2008-08-08 02:58:20 PM  
Psumek: Why else do you think most drug companies are in Jersey or Philly? We're perfectly fine with corruption and kick backs. It's on the state flags.

Hoffmann-La Roche just announced that they are moving their NA World Headquarters out of New Jersey.
/Corzine didn't do his job
 
2008-08-08 02:58:42 PM  
keylock71

No, I was referring to the towns and communities between Boston and the South Coast... The ones that have made the most stink about the proposed rail line. I seem to remember one of the town councilors saying something along the lines of, "Fall River and New Bedford are full of immigrants that can't speak english anyway, so how are they going to get a job in Boston?" (paraphrased)... can't remember where he was from off the top of my head, but it was one of the towns that would have the rail line running through their area.


Gotcha. I was thinking to myself "That kind of attitude really sounds more like the southern and western suburbs of Boston than south-eastern Massachusetts."

/anyway, blame DiMasi for killing the casino
 
2008-08-08 03:06:30 PM  
Drug reps reading this thread:

What's it like? Being able to see a doctor?
 
2008-08-08 03:09:31 PM  
logruszed

There is absolutely no difference between a pharm rep and a DC lobbyist. We all know that lobbying is corrupt, nobody would be arguing this fact if that was the topic at hand but for some reason people are defending the kind of lobbying activity when, in reality, this kind of stuff has a much more real and immidiate effect on the average citizen than most of the shiat that goes on in DC.

QFT
 
2008-08-08 03:10:25 PM  
Having Heather Locklear play a drug rep is pretty much on the money too, they don't all look like that, but none of 'em are woofers.
 
2008-08-08 03:13:57 PM  
JoeBagadonutz: mysticcat: In my experience this would be a very rare occurrence. You cant float someone on samples forever and drug reps aren't leaving you freebies on chemotherapeutics to try.

Mrs. Bagadonutz works for a very large cancer treatment facility and that is exactly what happens a lot more than you would think. The Docs she works with are some of the most selfless, kind, and caring people I've ever known. They will do anything that's legal to cure a patient, and the financial counsilers will leave no stone turned to find the money to do it from community programs medicaid and other sources. If the choice is between making the money or helping a poor patient, the patient always gets treated. In an area of medicine where the number of patients who eventually perish is disheartening, these men and women are heroes. Think about it. The government can't fix the potholes, run a war, fairly enforce laws or do any other damn thing well. Do you really want them to manage your health care? Not me. I'll take my chances with private enterprise.


They should not be managing it. They should just be paying for it. Socialized health insurance is not the same thing as socialized medicine. As a Canadian I can tell you the former works pretty well; the latter I could definitely see as problematic.

One other details, as far as drug reps go. Remember that the effects of their marketing strategies do not depend on your conscious choices. You will be profoundly influenced in unconscious ways as well, ways that you are unaware of.

No one thinks their choices are affected by advertisements, but all the studies on the subject ever done by sociologists, psychologists and economists all beg to differ on that point. Just because you aren't aware of their influence doesn't mean you haven't been affected by it. In fact, good marketers know very well about the tendency most people have to discount the effects of advertising, and they include it as a factor when coming up with marketing strategies.
 
2008-08-08 03:14:54 PM  
To everyone saying "I / my group / this doc I know has never had their prescribing practices influenced by pharmaceutical marketing":

1. Good for you / them / your mom, but please explain why the fark the pharmaceutical companies bother to market to doctors, if it doesn't work.

2. Wazana, A. (2000). Physicians and the pharmaceutical industry: Is a gift ever just a gift? JAMA, 283, 373-380.

This was a meta-analysis. If you have access to the full text, see especially Table 4.
 
2008-08-08 03:15:18 PM  
I sue big pharmaceutical companies for a living, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies, yadda yadda yadda.

//slashies FTW!
 
2008-08-08 03:15:46 PM  
mofomisfit:
/anyway, blame DiMasi for killing the casino


Yeah, not much love for DiMasi around here, though he did finally give up his opposition to the LNG Buffer Zone bill...

I know he painted the Casino bill as a victory for the "little guy" over the Casino and Union lobbies, but it seemed a little foolish to be rejecting all the cash it would have generated for the state, especially in light of our budgetary woes.
 
2008-08-08 03:16:05 PM  
AlwaysRightBoy: Psumek: Why else do you think most drug companies are in Jersey or Philly? We're perfectly fine with corruption and kick backs. It's on the state flags.

Hoffmann-La Roche just announced that they are moving their NA World Headquarters out of New Jersey.
/Corzine didn't do his job


Wow that eye sore across the Tick Tock Diner is gonna pack up? Well at least the 3 will be a little less bleak now.
 
2008-08-08 03:24:30 PM  
tlchwi02: Blues_X: Restless Leg Syndrome

the only people who laugh at RLS are the people who haven't had it.

/i'd rather have normal insomnia


I have Sciatica, and I scoff at your RLS. You don't have a leg to stand on.

/ I have restless leg syndrome, so my wife is really getting a kick out of this thread. Several times a night.
 
2008-08-08 03:28:27 PM  
At what point do people stop and think about the fact that perhaps good marketing doesn't make a good product?

Regardless if the marketing comes from commercials or from a quiet pay-out to a doctor, it's still bullshiat. I'm all down for more things like this coming into play. It's not even preventing doctors from doing things like this, only preventing them from doing it under the table.

/all for it.
//usually hate govt. making more laws, but in this case...
 
2008-08-08 03:34:28 PM  
As a medical researcher, this ruling applies to my field as well. Say I'm running a project to find out why certain drugs are prescribed more in certain parts of the country while they aren't in others. Is it due to advertising? Is it due to environmental conditions in a specific area? Inaccurate information being passed to the doctors, or maybe not enough?

In order to find this out, I'm asking physicians to dedicate up to 2 hours of their time to talk to me about cases, types, symptoms, etc. in order to sleuth some of these questions out. The doctor isn't going to do this for free - my company (an independant company with no bias toward any drug) has to pay these people for their time. With this bill, the couple of hundred dollars I'm offering them for insight for time spent is now considered a 'gift'.

There are other states where we can't do research of this type due to similar laws in place. MN and VT for instance have similar rulings. Enact this bill in a state where you've been attracting cutting edge researchers and physicians, and you lose valuable insight that helps to solve and properly treat people.

This isn't about pens.
 
2008-08-08 03:36:30 PM  
Dr. Cox: [whispering] Would you like to know the real dirty, dirty little secret? It's that your drug is so damn good that you guys went and put about a 600% markup on it.
But hey, the only ones get hurt are the sick people, right? And since your company *damn* sure doesn't care about them, and you're part of the system, well that just means you don't care either, and that's pretty much what's making me sick, that's all.
 
2008-08-08 03:36:43 PM  
Used to work at a psych hospital - overprescription of EVERYTHING is rampant in hospitals (especially psych ones - every patient MUST be on some sort of meds, and that's not an exaggeration). That's not an opinion based on my observation - every patient seen at the hospital takes some kind of medication. These are/were high-functioning teens with no developmental disabilities, sometimes bipolar disorder or psychotic episodes, just ADD or ODD, sometimes just because they got pissed and slugged another kid at school.

My mom works as a PA in neuroscience (can't prescribe anything, but she makes tons of recommendations for the docs) and gets more desk detritus and free pens FROM A SINGLE CONFERENCE than could be used by a sane person in a year. We had a 1-gallon ziplock filled with freebie pens. I say 'had' because now my folks have 2 or 3 such bags.

TV ads are useless and wrong - if you need a drug, your doc should suggest it. "I see your BP is 140/100. We should fix that with drug X," not "Hey, doc, I think I have high BP. Gimme drug X, I saw it on the teevee." Keep patient/doctor issues between patients and doctors and don't muddy the waters by suggesting that every tic and leg shake needs a 3-month course of $20-a-pop drugs.

On a more personal note, a few years back, I had a whole lot of pain in my shoulder. My doc handed me the free samples of Celebrex (which has no generic alternative, btw) and sent me on my way. It helped a bit, but what concerns me more is the fact that barely a month after I started taking it, the stories hit the news about how Celebrex, Vioxx and other NSAIDs cause heart problems and ulcers. So why was it pushed so hard? Why were the increased risks not known before the drug hit the market? And why was I prescribed a newer, sexier drug (or really, an anti-inflammatory from a newer, sexier class of drug) used to treat long-term pain like arthritis rather than a shorter-term drug with less risk to my health and well-being?

I'm not suggesting my doc was unduly influenced by a drug rep (she's a great doc who's probably never had her dick sucked by sexy reps anyway), but the fact that the drug was rushed to market before ALL the facts were known does not speak too well of Pharma's intentions (profit rather than health care).
 
Displayed 50 of 202 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report