fanbladesaresharp: Well you seem to have a pretty good distinction on just what designates "pedophile" (why that's such a contention with you I don't know but we'll fark with it anyway) so I'm at a bit of a loss how you haven't heard that phrase already. Hell, I heard it 30 years ago and I never even visited the place.

Yes, I know the definition of the word "pedophile". Apparently, this is weird to do. If you don't see the difference between having sex with a 6 year old and a 16 year old, I don't know what to say.

And maybe I'm just ignorant about Mt. Rushmore nicknames, but I've never heard that one, and google isn't helping.

fanbladesaresharp: You can try to define it all you want. There's a better application of it: Common Sense. As in, Just. Don't. Farking. Do. It. Moran.

In the 18th century, it was not uncommon to be married at that age. In Jefferson's day, it was not at all 'common sense' to avoid post-pubescent girls. Martha Washington, for example, was married at age 18, Abigail Adams met John when she was 15, and Martha Jefferson had a kid by age 19.

Frank Anthrax: I have no idea if this is a reputable journal or not, but putting "four thieves" in quotes turned this^ up:

The Lakota dubbed the Mt. Rushmore result "the four thieves" as each had taken vast tracts of Indian land.

Putting "four thieves" in quotes with Mt. Rushmore gives you 8 results on google. It's clearly not that famous a nickname.

fanbladesaresharp: Wow. No shiat? It didn't come up on google, therefore it doesn't exist? Try Wikipedia.

It's not there at all. You think Wikipedia has more information than google?

mandingueiro: "the four thieves" refers to the ways the american gov't used political leverage, modified, and broke their own laws to gain access to sacred land.It is a common moniker among native americans.

Fair enough. I'm not an Indian, so I don't know that. All I have access to is internet research at the moment, and it wasn't helping.

I wonder how many of these Jefferson critics think George W. Bush is awesome.

Frank Anthrax: fanbladesaresharp: You can try to define it all you want. There's a better application of it: Common Sense. As in, Just. Don't. Farking. Do. It. Moran.

Did... did you just call Thomas Jefferson a moran?

Also, just realized this. Martha Jefferson, the wife of Thomas, married her first husband at the age of 16.

JeffreyScott: Why is he a hypocrite simply because years later he took a different opinion. He was apparently an intelligent person who continued to push the boundaries of his knowledge until the day he died. Isn't it possible that he simply changed his opinion based on additional information and sound reflection?

I don't think even the biggest Jefferson fans deny he had hypocritical parts of his life. It's one of the great mysteries of the man.

fanbladesaresharp: Try Alta Vista and Dogpile.

Try no. I've looked, there's very few references t it. One on all of google. In this thread it's been explained to me what it means. I didn't deny the nickname existed, but its hardly a well-known one.

bullock.: Do you think that having sex with underaged girls is ok, today?

Yes or no?

No. Are we done?

Mr. Right: The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans: no early civilization believed in the equality of all men before the law as did the Jews.

As a Jew, I feel fine saying...what the hell are you talking about? Jewish Law is far from this.

Jefferson himself makes reference in his writings to an age of consent being 12 years old.

fanbladesaresharp: And yet here he is trying to define it and come off as an intellectual. Which way do you want it, chief?

This is how far out country has fallen? Now knowing what words mean is considered elitist.

Ignorance abounds here.

IN Jefferson's time, having sex with a woman of 14, 15, or 16 was not unusual, nor was it considered deviant, since many people didn't often live to see fifty years of age, and many died much earlier than that due to disease and health concerns which we have since addressed with modern medicine.

In fact, if a woman hadn't been with a man by the time she was 16, people would whisper the word "spinster" in regards to her. Marriages often took place between women in their teens, and men who ranged in age from slightly older to decades older. Some were arranged, some were not.

When it came to slaves, it was not unusual for the master of the estate to have his way with slave women. It was wrong, but it was also not always unwilling on the part of the woman. Sometimes, a slave who was cozy with her master had a very comfortable life in comparison to that of other slaves.

All this aside, it is NOT, nor has it every been "pedophilia" when someone has sex with a teenager who has gone through puberty, and barring some disorder, Sally Hemmings had most likely experienced puberty when she was around 12 years old. She would have been a WOMAN by nature's standards when she was 14.

In the modern era, now that we've decided on some arbitrary age where it's "OK" to have sex, we call attraction to post-pubescent teenagers "hebephelia" and whether or not it's legal has to do with what country, state, and county you're in. In some states it's 14, in others it's 16, and still others require a person to be 18 before they can have sex.

For those who are STUPID, "Pedophelia" is the deviant mental condition which makes an adult (defined as: someone who is past puberty) attracted to children who have not experienced puberty. This is its ONLY meaning. It does not mean "when an old dude farks a teenager" in ANY dictionary or law-book on Earth.

But pedophelia and hebephelia aside, relationships between people past the age of 18 and those who had experienced puberty but were not yet 18 years of age were the SOCIETAL NORM in Jefferson's day. I guarantee you that EVERY ONE of the founding fathers nailed a teenager at some point in his life. (Ben Franklin probably did it weekly.)

My own grandmother, wife to a Quaker, was married when she was 14 years old. She had twelve kids, starting as soon as she was married, and remained with her husband for over 75 years. My grandfather, then 17 years old, met her when she was 12 and told her he was going to be his wife some day. Two years later, when she was at "marrying age", he asked for her hand in marriage, and her father's blessing, and got both. My grandmother was born in the late 1800s, and it was still pretty normal for women to marry young at that point in time.

People in this thread trying to lay 21st century sexual repression on 18th century historical figures need to shut up. You're way off-base.