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(LA Times)   Thomas Jefferson's Bible reveals that he could have REALLY used a word processor. Oh, and he didn't believe any of that miracle hocus-pocus either   (latimes.com) divider line 329
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18039 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jul 2008 at 9:18 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-07-20 10:09:05 PM
t3knomanser: Point of order: pedophila is a sexual attraction to pre-pubescents. People who fark 14 year olds aren't pedophiles, because (barring hormone or genetic issues) 14 year olds are past puberty. The proper term for someone who farks 14 year olds is "teacher".

That's really all I'm saying. I'm not defending the guy having sex with his 16 year old slave beyond saying its not pedophilia.

And goddammit Fark, get fixed!
 
2008-07-20 10:09:06 PM
altinos: Those that claim the USA was founded as a Christian nation will keep believing that, no matter what proof is found.

All you need do is read many of the letters that Jefferson wrote to others to realize that there was absolutely no truth to the comment "The US was founded as a Christian nation". They had seen what had happened in European history when the Church became entwined in political matters, and didn't want that for the newly formed America.

Also, read about the Treaty of Tripoli if you don't have time for Jefferson's letters. States the exact same thing.
 
2008-07-20 10:10:10 PM
bullock.: DamnYankees
Having sex with a 15 or 16 year old is not pedophilia.

You do realize that this thread is discoverable, right? Forever and ever.

Just saying; FARK is a little creepy currently.

/Looking at you, not blinking.


What am I supposed to be hiding from? Definitions of words? Pedophilia is an attraction to pre-pubescent kids. There's zero evidence of anything like that with Jefferson, and its slanderous to say so. (Well, libel since its being typed.)
 
2008-07-20 10:10:41 PM
Lets not forget that Jefferson paid Benjamin Franklin Bache (and others) to pillory John Adams over NOT joining in with the bloodbath that was the French revolution (among other things). Though stupid and reactionary, the Alien and Sedition Acts were a desperate attempt to prevent Jeffersonian Francophiles from dragging the US into a disastrous war to aid French anarchists. He admired French revolutionaries' executing random people left and right as necessary in the course of their 'revolution' and was more than happy to risk American neutrality to align the US with the values of the french revolutionaries.

A good writer and his heart was probably in the right place, but he does come across as incredibly disingenuous and without much personal honor.
 
2008-07-20 10:11:05 PM
DamnYankees

Thomas Jefferson is, in my opinion, the greatest American of all time. We don't talk about him enough, though, since in many ways he lost forsook the war of ideas about what this nation should become.
 
2008-07-20 10:11:31 PM
Luke 19.37 And as He was now approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen

John 10.32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." 14.11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Exodus 15.11 "Who is like Thee among the gods, O LORD? Who is like Thee, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?
 
2008-07-20 10:11:59 PM
t3knomanser: Point of order: pedophila is a sexual attraction to pre-pubescents. People who fark 14 year olds aren't pedophiles, because (barring hormone or genetic issues) 14 year olds are past puberty. The proper term for someone who farks 14 year olds is "teacher".

I will you that, except for the teacher part you sick farker.
 
2008-07-20 10:12:35 PM
aerojockey: DamnYankees

Thomas Jefferson is, in my opinion, the greatest American of all time. We don't talk about him enough, though, since in many ways he lost forsook the war of ideas about what this nation should become.


What do you mean "forsook"? Are you talking about his hypocrisy of owning slaves?
 
2008-07-20 10:13:15 PM
mandingueiro: cue the Christian fundamentalists in 3, 2, 1...

I wonder if they plan on a posthumous excommunication for desecrating the bible. Don't they want to excommunicate that kid whom "desecrated" the bread / "body of christ?"

LOL
 
2008-07-20 10:26:21 PM
Jefferson was a great man, and also a massive hypocrite. It's good to see the founding fathers as people instead of deitys.

They disagreed on a lot of things. That disagreement lead, in part, to the awesome compromise that is the constitution.

One thing almost all of them agreed on was that they weren't founding a religious government.

Jefferson said a bunch of stuff about Hamilton that he probably knew was nonsense, like Hamilton was a "monarchist."
Jefferson also condemned a lot of essential things that Hamilton set up, like the treasury department. Then of course as President, Jefferson enjoyed the benefits of Hamiltons labor and did nothing to undo anything Hamilton did, because it turned out Hamilton was right.

I like the comment above where someone says the Jefferson bible has no relevance to modern christians. Duh. Way to answer a question nobody asked.
 
2008-07-20 10:30:14 PM
Honestly, I was unaware of Jefferson's edit of the Bible until now, so thanks, submitter.

This should pull the rug out from under those who believe the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were "divinely inspired". They use that belief as an excuse to support laws that are based solely on religious doctrine, and that belief needs to go the way of racial segregation.
 
2008-07-20 10:34:21 PM
www.tysto.com

APPROVES.

/Yes, I know the pic is from the wrong episode.
 
2008-07-20 10:37:09 PM
rbuzby: Jefferson was a great man, and also a massive hypocrite. It's good to see the founding fathers as people instead of deitys.

Agreed completely.

rbuzby: Jefferson also condemned a lot of essential things that Hamilton set up, like the treasury department. Then of course as President, Jefferson enjoyed the benefits of Hamiltons labor and did nothing to undo anything Hamilton did, because it turned out Hamilton was right.

Jefferson was an idealist, maybe the most idealistic of our founding fathers. That's why he loved revolution. He had his troubles when reality collided with his high-mindedness. Thus his owning slaves, because he was afraid of what would happen if slavery was gone. He bought Louisiana thinking he didn't have the power to do it because he couldn't turn the offer down. He ran a dirty campaign in order to win.
 
2008-07-20 10:39:40 PM
Bevets: Luke 19.37 And as He was now approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen

John 10.32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." 14.11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Exodus 15.11 "Who is like Thee among the gods, O LORD? Who is like Thee, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?


So the Biblical miracles happened...because the Bible says so.

images4.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2008-07-20 10:40:30 PM
DamnYankees: t3knomanser: Point of order: pedophila is a sexual attraction to pre-pubescents. People who fark 14 year olds aren't pedophiles, because (barring hormone or genetic issues) 14 year olds are past puberty. The proper term for someone who farks 14 year olds is "teacher".

That's really all I'm saying. I'm not defending the guy having sex with his 16 year old slave beyond saying its not pedophilia.

And goddammit Fark, get fixed!


Always some goddam technicality with some people. Grow a pair will ya?
 
2008-07-20 10:41:06 PM
DamnYankees

What am I supposed to be hiding from? Definitions of words? Pedophilia is an attraction to pre-pubescent kids. There's zero evidence of anything like that with Jefferson, and its slanderous to say so. (Well, libel since its being typed.)

It is against the law. And gross.

Who said you were hiding?

What's up w/ the inclusive definition of libel? Are you attempting to show off?

I think you are, and are now exposed as a shameless and clueless pseudo-intellectual for it.

/Sorry, dude. You put yourself out there and I pounced.
 
2008-07-20 10:41:11 PM
fanbladesaresharp: Always some goddam technicality with some people. Grow a pair will ya?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm.
 
2008-07-20 10:42:48 PM
LordJiro: Thomas Jefferson on slavery. Letter to John Holmes

What the hell was Jefferson doing writing to John Holmes? Did the man's perversion know no end?

The only thing lower than a pedophile is one who would carelessly call another a pedophile without knowledge.
 
2008-07-20 10:42:54 PM
bullock.: It is against the law. And gross.

What is? Sex with a 16 year old? Nowadays it is. But Jefferson lived 200 years ago.

bullock.: Who said you were hiding?

You warned me this was public and could be found, implying I was saying something which shouldn't be said in public.

bullock.: What's up w/ the inclusive definition of libel? Are you attempting to show off?

Slander is verbal, libel is written. If making that distinction is "showing off", then the bar on Fark is pretty low.
 
2008-07-20 10:44:01 PM
Bevets: Luke 19.37 And as He was now approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen

John 10.32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." 14.11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Exodus 15.11 "Who is like Thee among the gods, O LORD? Who is like Thee, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?


I've finally figured it out. You're autistic.
 
2008-07-20 10:44:15 PM
From the little reading I've done, I'm under the impression that the genetic markers linking Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings's children are found on the y chromosome providing a male to male link. Jefferson had several male cousins and nephews (My memory is vague here. At least one of the two) who would have carried this marker. I recall reading in 12th grade a letter penned by one such relative who was deeply disturbed that he may have done something to besmirch Thomas Jefferson's honor.

Naturally, any such documents are long since thrown out, so no chance of finding them to bolster my statement.
 
2008-07-20 10:44:36 PM
Overfiend: Thomas Jefferson was a great man. But a Jefferson Bible is not a bible. Its his cliffs notes on the bible. It holds no religious relevance for true believers in Christ.

That's right. Which means:
it also refutes the claim that the founding fathers intended the US to be "a Christian country."
 
2008-07-20 10:44:44 PM
Bevets: Luke 19.37 And as He was now approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen

John 10.32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." 14.11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Exodus 15.11 "Who is like Thee among the gods, O LORD? Who is like Thee, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?


In America, we live in a Jesus haunted culture that is biblically illiterate. Jesus is a household name and yet only a distinct minority of Americans have studied an English translation of the original documents that tell us about Jesus, much less read them in the original Greek. ~ What have they done with Jesus; Ben Withering III
-
Biblical inerrancy - the infallibility of the Bible - which most fundamentalists profess, is often taught in a way that gives its adherents the impression that the Bible is an easy-to-use guide to moral conduct, religious belief and even everyday life. Unfortunately with such a conception, people are liable to avoid studying the Bible carefully, for they may assume that its interpretation is simple and requires little more than reading particular passages, and then applying them wherever needed. In short, they may come to equate the infallibility of the Bible with the infallibility of their interpretation of the Bible. ~ Fundamentalism: Hazards and Heartbreaks, Rod L. Evans, and Irwin M. Berent
-
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. ~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr (Aug. 10, 1787)
 
2008-07-20 10:45:09 PM
Well, we do need less Leviticus and more Beatitudes.
 
2008-07-20 10:45:49 PM
mandingueiro: DamnYankees: mandingueiro: hey, just pointing out the flaws of being human. As for pedophile: Sally Hemings was allegedly jefferson's concubine. It is a theory supported by many historical revisionists. Research lends authenticity to the accusations. By today's standards, jefferson would be considered a pedophile.

First of all, I never said he was flawless. Some of his flaws are what make him such an amazing American figure. I didn't say he was the most noble or righteous American of all time.

Secondly, concubine? Are you kidding me? This isn't 37 BC in Carthage. He had an affair with one of his slaves. His personal sexual life is of no real interest to me and bears very little on his character. Her status as 'slave' is much more important than her status as 'mistress'.

Thirdly, you're a moron about the pedophile thing. There is zero evidence, zero, that Jefferson liked her pre-puberty. I'll seriously have to report you to the mods if you don't either retract or prove your statement. I don't get touchy about much, but calling a great person a pedophile with no proof or logic is farked up.

um...she was 14 and he was parading her in french courts as his "pet". She bore 5 of his children. Somehow, given the circumstances (and this is only my opinion) i highly doubt she was the only slave he had sexual relations with.
/No. I will not retract my statement.Unless evidence is shown otherwise.
//grow a pair. quit getting your panties in bunch.


The word you are looking for is pederast...by 14 she might have already begun puberty. A pedophile is some attracted to pre-pubescent persons.
 
2008-07-20 10:46:46 PM
DamnYankees: rbuzby: Jefferson was a great man, and also a massive hypocrite. It's good to see the founding fathers as people instead of deitys.

Agreed completely.

rbuzby: Jefferson also condemned a lot of essential things that Hamilton set up, like the treasury department. Then of course as President, Jefferson enjoyed the benefits of Hamiltons labor and did nothing to undo anything Hamilton did, because it turned out Hamilton was right.

Jefferson was an idealist, maybe the most idealistic of our founding fathers. That's why he loved revolution. He had his troubles when reality collided with his high-mindedness. Thus his owning slaves, because he was afraid of what would happen if slavery was gone. He bought Louisiana thinking he didn't have the power to do it because he couldn't turn the offer down. He ran a dirty campaign in order to win.


wow we agree on something. realism does not equal morality. His policies based on hypocritical morality is his downfall as a great president (although i do take into account the time period.). to put into perspective: mount rushmore is called the four thieves. Historical analysis of american policy vindicates the statement.
 
2008-07-20 10:47:41 PM
DeadParrotSociety: The word you are looking for is pederast...by 14 she might have already begun puberty. A pedophile is some attracted to pre-pubescent persons.

No. Pederasty is only between a boy and a man. This is not that.

A relationship between a man and a post-pubescent woman is merely illegal in the US. There's no name for it.
 
2008-07-20 10:47:49 PM
20th century or 18th century, it makes no difference, it seems...People today put a man's private sexual behavior ahead of their ability to govern.
 
2008-07-20 10:48:26 PM
DeadParrotSociety: The word you are looking for is pederast

Pederasty is between males.
 
2008-07-20 10:48:46 PM
DamnYankees: bullock.: It is against the law. And gross.

What is? Sex with a 16 year old? Nowadays it is. But Jefferson lived 200 years ago.

bullock.: Who said you were hiding?

You warned me this was public and could be found, implying I was saying something which shouldn't be said in public.

bullock.: What's up w/ the inclusive definition of libel? Are you attempting to show off?

Slander is verbal, libel is written. If making that distinction is "showing off", then the bar on Fark is pretty low.


lawyers....
 
2008-07-20 10:49:21 PM
mandingueiro: lawyers....

Laypeople....
 
2008-07-20 10:49:22 PM
mandingueiro: wow we agree on something. realism does not equal morality. His policies based on hypocritical morality is his downfall as a great president (although i do take into account the time period.). to put into perspective: mount rushmore is called the four thieves. Historical analysis of american policy vindicates the statement.

I never said he was the most moral American ever, nor am I judging him purely on his presidency.

And I've never heard Mt. Rushmore called the "four thieves".
 
2008-07-20 10:49:28 PM
Bevets: Luke 19.37 And as He was now approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen

John 10.32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." 14.11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Exodus 15.11 "Who is like Thee among the gods, O LORD? Who is like Thee, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?



Why do you knowingly lie about Sir Arthur Keith on your website?
 
2008-07-20 10:50:08 PM
DamnYankees: A relationship between a man and a post-pubescent woman is merely illegal in the US. There's no name for it.

"Statutory"?
 
2008-07-20 10:50:51 PM
If they were printing on both sides of the page back then, he'd have needed to cut up TWO copies of a bible.

Some people cringe at the mere thought.
Hell, they print BILLIONS of the things. From time to time over the ages, I'm sure a few pages have been used to start kindling going for a campfire. Get over it. It's not like you're burning the original manuscripts.

And it's common practice to write in the margins.
Gimme a break.
 
2008-07-20 10:51:09 PM
DamnYankees: Having sex with a 15 or 16 year old is not pedophilia.

Correct. The proper term is "ephebophilia" or "giggity."
 
2008-07-20 10:51:18 PM
ninjakirby: DamnYankees: A relationship between a man and a post-pubescent woman is merely illegal in the US. There's no name for it.

"Statutory"?


That's a legal term. It's not a psychological or social condition like pedophilia and pederasty. We may think a 40 year old guy and a 16 year old woman is weird and emotionally wrong (this illegal), but that's a whole different can of worms than child molesting.
 
2008-07-20 10:51:24 PM
Apparently I am somehow the first to note: OLD!

Like 200 years old. This is news how exactly? I've had a copy of the Jefferson Bible for more than a decade, and mine is hardly the only one in existence.

This just now came to the attention of the LA Times?
 
2008-07-20 10:51:50 PM
ninjakirby: DamnYankees: A relationship between a man and a post-pubescent woman is merely illegal in the US. There's no name for it.

"Statutory"?


Statutory refers to a statute. That is, something that is a law. It is a law to have sex with "under-aged" people (what that means depends on jurisdiction).

So, saying "statutory" is like saying "The Law."
 
2008-07-20 10:52:59 PM
To not have sex! Not!

...
 
2008-07-20 10:53:08 PM
give me doughnuts: Correct. The proper term is "ephebophilia" or "giggity."

Yup. Wikipedia says it simply: "Attraction to adolescents is not generally regarded by psychologists as pathological except when it interferes with other relationships, becomes an obsession which adversely affects other areas of life, or causes distress to the subject."

I think this statement about obsession or distress could apply to damn near anything, like comic books or MMORPGs.
 
2008-07-20 10:55:57 PM
DamnYankees
bullock.: It is against the law. And gross.

What is? Sex with a 16 year old? Nowadays it is. But Jefferson lived 200 years ago.

bullock.: Who said you were hiding?

You warned me this was public and could be found, implying I was saying something which shouldn't be said in public.

bullock.: What's up w/ the inclusive definition of libel? Are you attempting to show off?

Slander is verbal, libel is written. If making that distinction is "showing off", then the bar on Fark is pretty low.

Please forgive my reluctance/refusal to work the approprate html tags further than I did. My maid called in sick/has yet to be hired.

I'm just saying that showing support for having sex with little girls is akin to showing support for enslaving black people.

Yes, both had no social repercusions, legal or otherwise years ago, but it makes you look extremely stupid defending it now.

Think about it: We figured out how stupid and horrible that was, either case scenerio.

Defending the opposite means embracing the evil we overcame. This is not rocket science.

If you do not get what I am saying, by all means go ahead and enslave a black person at gun-point and then have sex w/ an underaged girl to make your point.

/Don't really do this.

//Seriously, DO NOT really do this.
 
2008-07-20 10:56:24 PM
nmathew01: From the little reading I've done, I'm under the impression that the genetic markers linking Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings's children are found on the y chromosome providing a male to male link. Jefferson had several male cousins and nephews (My memory is vague here. At least one of the two) who would have carried this marker. I recall reading in 12th grade a letter penned by one such relative who was deeply disturbed that he may have done something to besmirch Thomas Jefferson's honor.

Naturally, any such documents are long since thrown out, so no chance of finding them to bolster my statement.



There's been a lot of talk that it may have been one of Jefferson's nephews who may have actually had the relationship with Sally Hemings. But as far as I know, there's been no way to prove it as of yet.
 
2008-07-20 10:57:59 PM
\bullock.: I'm just saying that showing support for having sex with little girls is akin to showing support for enslaving black people.

Yes, both had no social repercusions, legal or otherwise years ago, but it makes you look extremely stupid defending it now.


You're a freaking moron. Thomas Jefferson did not have sex with "little girls". Jesus, what the hell is wrong with you? Having sex with a 16 year old isn't right and I'm not defending it, but its lightyears different from having sex with "little girls", especially given the time period, when people married and gave birth alot younger than nowadays.

And fix your tags, its not hard. You don't need a maid.
 
2008-07-20 10:58:07 PM
DamnYankees: fanbladesaresharp: Always some goddam technicality with some people. Grow a pair will ya?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm.


You'll never know.
 
2008-07-20 10:58:48 PM
DamnYankees: mandingueiro: wow we agree on something. realism does not equal morality. His policies based on hypocritical morality is his downfall as a great president (although i do take into account the time period.). to put into perspective: mount rushmore is called the four thieves. Historical analysis of american policy vindicates the statement.

I never said he was the most moral American ever, nor am I judging him purely on his presidency.

And I've never heard Mt. Rushmore called the "four thieves".


well, maybe you should delve into historical events and the factual renderings on the people they affect.
 
2008-07-20 10:58:48 PM
AurizenDarkstar: There's been a lot of talk that it may have been one of Jefferson's nephews who may have actually had the relationship with Sally Hemings. But as far as I know, there's been no way to prove it as of yet.

Aside from sheer curiosity, I never understood the relevance of this whole thing. Whether Jefferson was or wasn't the father, does it have any lasting bearing on the man's legacy?
 
2008-07-20 10:59:52 PM
mandingueiro: well, maybe you should delve into historical events and the factual renderings on the people they affect.

A google search for "four thieves mount rushmore" serves up nothing. What are you talking about? Is this your personal nickname for those 4 men?
 
2008-07-20 11:00:56 PM
Yup, those radical left founding fathers are at it again.

Nice timely article, too. Slow news century?

/"Christian nation?" Who the heck told you that? Well, they were wrong. Sorry! You can go back to your pancake breakfast now....
 
2008-07-20 11:01:05 PM
Bevets: Exodus 15.11 "Who is like Thee among the gods, O LORD? Who is like Thee, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?

Zeus
Oh, wait, also:
Jupiter
Odin
Wotan
Kinich Ahau
Ra
An
Anu
Anus (the Hittite "king of the gods", for real)
Tabiti
Kamui
Brahma
Izanagi
Banaitja
Kutkh
Crom

Now, I am sure you think your God can beat up all these other Gods, but they think/thought the same about yours. Just that Christians and Muslims made it difficult to be anything except Christians or Muslims in the lands they ruled. Either by edict, by pogrom or by financial burden.

Congratulations in winning the God race. The masses suffered for your glory.
 
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