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(Cincinnati Enquirer)   The Amish in Kentucky do not want to display slow-moving vehicle emblems on their horse-drawn buggies because they say the signs are "too worldly"   (news.cincinnati.com ) divider line
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4483 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jul 2008 at 11:30 PM (7 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-07-15 01:50:35 AM  
Batewoman: Amish people pay income and property taxes just like everyone else, so really they are their roads and their "worldly reflective signs" just as much as they're yours although more importantly it's their right to practice their religion freely. Welcome to America.


It's called hypocrisy. They won't use reflective signs on their buggies because they're supposedly too modern, but they're perfectly happy using our modern paved roads. Pavement is OK but reflective signs aren't? Seems like a pretty convenient place to draw the line and it amounts to a weak argument on their part.

It's also a major safety concern. You have every right to practice your religion freely right up until you cross the line of putting other people's safety at risk. Hitting a buggy drawn by two horses could easily kill a driver.
 
2008-07-15 01:52:46 AM  
If you're driving at night, especially in the rain, you don't see those buggies until it's nearly too late to stop. Without the reflective sign and tail lights, these guys are really just asking to get rear ended. And somehow I doubt those buggies have airbags.
 
2008-07-15 01:55:59 AM  
Suicidal Writer: Religious freedom is pretty much American propaganda, otherwise anyone can start a religion and otherwise illegal acts would be permitted.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2008-07-15 02:01:40 AM  
As a mod3rn per5on living in KY, I have to say that these people are the nicest, most warm, and big hearted people you will evar meet! They are not crazy retards like our eastern KY hillbillie counterparts. They just dont let modern tech run their lives.

With that said, put a farking triangle on your buggy or take a chance at having my modern buggy ramming yours at 55 mph! Whoops.
 
2008-07-15 02:05:10 AM  
Gyrfalcon: For the record, hitting a full-sized horse at around 35 mph will total your car, not to mention anyone inside your car. And the horse.

I once dated a guy who totaled his car by hitting a horse. Apparently the Amish kid in the buggy was out late and told the horse "go home" and went to sleep. Horse didn't know about stopping at intersections to look for cars, and crossed a highway where my friend was driving probably 60 or so (although he obviously slammed on the brakes). Hurt the horse enough it had to be put down, totalled the car. Luckily friend and Amish kid were unhurt.
 
2008-07-15 02:08:25 AM  
i am the infidel: A_Listless_Wanderer: If you need a sign to tell you that a horse buggy is a slow moving vehicle

Dude, have you ever driven on a country road at night? Pretty much filled up with stoners copping a buzz as they chuck their empties out the window. There are also the couples doing what couples do when they want to be away from their mother. Then there are the Amish


Yes, yes.
A sense of humor. Get one and then reread my post all the way through.
 
2008-07-15 02:10:13 AM  
Chutzpaw007: Gyrfalcon: For the record, hitting a full-sized horse at around 35 mph will total your car, not to mention anyone inside your car. And the horse.

I once dated a guy who totaled his car by hitting a horse. Apparently the Amish kid in the buggy was out late and told the horse "go home" and went to sleep.


Amish Autopilot.
 
2008-07-15 02:16:52 AM  
Danger Avoid Death: Chutzpaw007: Gyrfalcon: For the record, hitting a full-sized horse at around 35 mph will total your car, not to mention anyone inside your car. And the horse.

I once dated a guy who totaled his car by hitting a horse. Apparently the Amish kid in the buggy was out late and told the horse "go home" and went to sleep.

Amish Autopilot.


With God's Positioning System.
 
2008-07-15 02:17:56 AM  
quietude38: Believe it or not, I'm actually covering this trial for the local newspaper. I would link some stuff, but we don't have a website.

These aren't your garden-variety Amish; they're a particularly conservative sect called the Swartzentruber Amish (new window) who are extremely conservative.

Before the ACLU took over, three of them got a public defender to take the case pro bono, and he's in the midst of appealing the case up the line after the circuit court judge upheld their convictions.

They've threatened to move out of the county if the convictions stand, but I have my doubts about whether or not that'll happen, because they've got a lot of land that no one else is going to buy.


Isn't every case a public defender take pro bono?

On this case, all I have to add. Just leave them alone.
 
2008-07-15 02:25:26 AM  
Cosmic Crab: Danger Avoid Death: Chutzpaw007: Gyrfalcon: For the record, hitting a full-sized horse at around 35 mph will total your car, not to mention anyone inside your car. And the horse.

I once dated a guy who totaled his car by hitting a horse. Apparently the Amish kid in the buggy was out late and told the horse "go home" and went to sleep.

Amish Autopilot.

With God's Positioning System.


So God can be certain all his missionaries are in position.
 
2008-07-15 02:30:42 AM  
Chutzpaw007: Apparently the Amish kid in the buggy was out late and told the horse "go home" and went to sleep.

Out late?

/lifts eyebrow
 
2008-07-15 02:53:20 AM  
www.martinfrost.ws

If *I* lived in Amish country, I would TOTALLY get one of those and add spinners. And upholster it with animal fur. And tassel fringes hanging down from the top edges. And a kick ass stereo ("Amish Paradise" being a top pick there) and neon ground effect underlighting. Probably needs a DVD player in there too.

Wait till you see the hydraulics... this thing's totally pimpin.
 
2008-07-15 03:05:41 AM  
There's only one group of people in the world that I honestly can't stand, and that's the Amish.

See, I am a non-religious spiritualist/futurist/technologist/liberal/agnostic at heart (like several Farkers, I would assume), and the Amish are philosophically and morally opposed to everything I believe in.

That being said the great thing about the Amish is that you could totally take out a 2-page ad in the NYT, rent that massive TV in Times square for a day, and cover the internet in Anti-Amish rhetoric and they'd never now. Even if they did know, they are taught to turn the other cheek, so they wouldn't do anything about it. And even if they went against what they were taught and got angry enough to kill you over it, you could always just drive away in your motor vehicle of choice or shoot them.

\ It's not like they're about to call the cops.
\ Although, I did love Kingpin...
 
2008-07-15 03:10:59 AM  
real shaman: Exactly what does a sign like this do?

Reflect light. Which is helpful at night, especially with their black buggies.

You know what's also worldly? That car coming up on your arse at 60mph. Now where's that pic of the pope-mobile that says "Faith - the bullets are real..."?
 
2008-07-15 03:41:28 AM  
The Amish trying in various ways to live in the 17th century while adopting various 21st century things they find useful is kinda cute. Like, say, if Robert E. Lee after Pickett's Charge sent a message to Meade offering to call it a draw.
/cute, but pathetic...
 
2008-07-15 03:49:43 AM  
cynicalbastard: The Amish trying in various ways to live in the 17th century while adopting various 21st century things they find useful is kinda cute.

To be fair, this is America, the land where conservatives, libertarians, and liberals long for a time that never existed. At least the Amish have some sort of day-to-day basis for their life.
 
2008-07-15 04:14:49 AM  
GIS for "pimped buggy"

www.shortarmguy.com
 
2008-07-15 05:22:55 AM  
One of these dumb bastards shot my pet dog when I was little, for no reason, and then covered it up and refused to take responsibility. His various crimes were exacerbated by his isolationist culture. That was pretty much the end of my willingness to tolerate their hick superstitions. Society should not budge an inch to accommodate such stupidity. I know everyone thinks it's cute and quaint to see little people from the 1800s running around in 2008, but it's not so funny when they kill your best friend. I can't even imagine what it's like for the family members of people who've been hurt or killed in accidents with their stupid wagons.
 
2008-07-15 06:42:37 AM  
Suicidal Writer: Religious freedom is pretty much American propaganda, otherwise anyone can start a religion and otherwise illegal acts would be permitted. Religious expression is somewhat tolerated, but religious freedom only exists in the sense that you are free to obey the law except in rare obscure circumstances where public outcry is capable of being defended against.

To be fair, when the authors of the bill of rights wrote that whole religious freedom into the constitution, they were merely trying to prevent large-scale bloodshed as in the english and french and dutch and german wars of revolution ( which mostly consisted of thick-headed nobles using the faith as an excuse to kill each others' adherents). Progroms and small-scale religious persecution weren't big on their list, and certainly they wouldn't have given a rat's ass about some pot-smokers who want to be the most devout white rastafarians in all of idaho, or the california lwyer who has some twiddling complaint about his atheism.
 
2008-07-15 07:06:14 AM  
hyperspacemonkey: Is there anyone dumb enough to think a horse drawn buggy is fast?

No, but there are plenty of people dumb enough to not understand the purpose of a reflective slow-moving vehicle sign.

Under low-light conditions, a fast moving car approaching a slow moving buggy can easily mistake it for another vehicle, and without brake lights or a reflective sign to warn other drivers that it isn't going at a normal speed, one could easily smash into the back of it.

Keep in mind there are no streetlights on many of the rural roads that the Amish tend to live and work around.
 
2008-07-15 07:23:46 AM  
On top of that is the "No duh" quotient. A horse drawn buggy is slow? Really? Color me surprised!
 
2008-07-15 07:30:51 AM  
After reading the comments, I would like to replace my previous statement. Didn't think about the whole night driving thing.

Although you'd think they'd have to have red reflectors on their buggies at least.
 
2008-07-15 08:13:21 AM  
It makes no sense to allow black buggies onto the roadways without reflectors and orange warning signs.

If their worried about "worldly possessions", why not just let the state possess them. Why do they have to own them. Put lettering on the bottom, that has "Property of the Kentucky MVA" or what have you on there.

Then you can charge them a nominal tax fee when they apply for them from the state for a new buggy.
 
2008-07-15 08:33:22 AM  
real shaman: Exactly what does a sign like this do?

If one cannot recognize a horse drawn buggy until you can read a sign, you have a serious problem.


I think that (at least in my state) these signs are not do help recognize a buggy, but to notice it. Every Amish buggy I have ever seen was straight black, with no reflective portions, other than the orange 'slow moving vehicle' reflectors. At dusk/dawn these fine people are *very* hard to see. I cannot imagine how hard it would be to see a black buggy traveling 15mph on a 55 mph road after dark with no reflective surfaces.
 
2008-07-15 08:56:16 AM  
My motorcycle jacket has retroreflective patches for a reason--because I don't want to get smacked by a driver at night who has trouble judging position and speed when visual cues are lacking. (A single point like one headlight or one reflective triangle isn't really enough for that.)
i65.photobucket.com
 
2008-07-15 09:18:11 AM  
shower_in_my_socks: It's called hypocrisy. They won't use reflective signs on their buggies because they're supposedly too modern, but they're perfectly happy using our modern paved roads. Pavement is OK but reflective signs aren't? Seems like a pretty convenient place to draw the line and it amounts to a weak argument on their part.

The difference is they leave the paved roads where they are when they go home. A reflective sign on their buggy would come home with them.
 
2008-07-15 09:35:57 AM  
shower_in_my_socks: It's called hypocrisy. They won't use reflective signs on their buggies because they're supposedly too modern, but they're perfectly happy using our modern paved roads. Pavement is OK but reflective signs aren't? Seems like a pretty convenient place to draw the line and it amounts to a weak argument on their part.

Okay, you are like the fifth person to say that, so here. They don't have choice when it comes to the road, it was built on top of their old roads and the roads before those which if we keep going back were dirt or something. The county paved them eventually and now they have no choice. They can't make new roads because of fences and what-not in the way, so they have to use the ones they probably created in the first place that as been taken over. This is a case of the change that happened that they had to adapt to and they are trying not to change themselves by putting gaudy caution stickers on.

/sry, poorly worded, never a great debater
 
2008-07-15 09:37:31 AM  
Batewoman: The difference is they leave the paved roads where they are when they go home. A reflective sign on their buggy would come home with them.

Jeez, you said it better than i, and did it in two sentences. Can i call you next time i need debate appraiser?
 
2008-07-15 10:05:29 AM  
Batewoman: shower_in_my_socks: It's called hypocrisy. They won't use reflective signs on their buggies because they're supposedly too modern, but they're perfectly happy using our modern paved roads. Pavement is OK but reflective signs aren't? Seems like a pretty convenient place to draw the line and it amounts to a weak argument on their part.

The difference is they leave the paved roads where they are when they go home. A reflective sign on their buggy would come home with them.


Should not matter. The reflective sign is not just for their benefit, it is for the benefit off all the drivers on the road, that do not want to hit the buggies, and live with the possibility of killing someone simply because someone's religious conviction gets in the way of common sense.

I am willing to compromise. They can leave the reflective signs curb-side if they want, but when they travel public roads, they need to learn to share.
 
2008-07-15 10:28:35 AM  
This is a case where a conservative order of Amish don't want to be worldly and they view the SMV triangle as an evil symbol. They think reflective tape is too showy. They are misguided because it's really about their safety and the safety of cars and trucks on the road. Most Amish have decided to put this stuff on, with good results. Apparently the Amish religion is as fragmented as every other religious denomination. What I find more dangerous is the electric lights on the buggy. Looks too much like a motorized vehicle and your perception of what it's going to do or how fast it may be moving is skewed.

As far as the pave roads, the Amish would rather not have paved roads. They typically settle where there are not paved roads and try to keep them that way. But in order to go to the store or whatever they have to go into town and that generally means paved roads.

I have several Amish friends and some of them admit that some of their rules probably seem pretty silly but "that's just the way we are."
 
2008-07-15 10:29:29 AM  
I regularly drive through Amish/Mennonite country by my parents house. I find it unnerving to crest a hill at night and find an unmarked black buggy going down the road. I expect it but it is still scary. The worst is when they are along the highway at night. A few people get killed every year in buggy/car accidents. i do not want to be one of them or the driver involved. There were a bunch of kids killed a few years ago in an unmarked buggy at night since then the community has been less resistant to reflective signs and lights. I should ask my dad's Mennonite neighbor what their community think about using solar panels to charge batteries and stuff. He and his kids were very interested in my Dad's solar setup and helped install some of it.
 
2008-07-15 11:23:35 AM  
Danger Avoid Death: Suicidal Writer: i am the infidel: Dude, have you ever driven on a country road at night?

I'll tell you what is scary on real country roads (no light, except moonshine): people who want to play "let's drive without our headlights on." If they are driving in a 21st century vehicle, they can pass you at 80mph, silently and ghostly.

And then they can plow into the back of their wife's car in the driveway, killing one of their own kids and maiming the wife's boyfriend.


blogs.tampabay.com
Approves.
 
2008-07-15 11:53:13 AM  
quietude38:
These aren't your garden-variety Amish; they're a particularly conservative sect called the Swartzentruber Amish (new window) who are extremely conservative.


Is this the same group that was fighting the county health department over flush toilets in the school recently? I know they were also Swartzentruber Ordnung but I don't know if it's the same ones.
 
2008-07-15 11:58:02 AM  
quietude38:
These aren't your garden-variety Amish; they're a particularly conservative sect called the Swartzentruber Amish (new window) who are extremely conservative.


I bet it wouldn't be outrageously hard to make a clockwork flasher using a lantern and a shutter. Add a red lens and you're in business, Amish style.
 
2008-07-15 12:30:25 PM  
Suicidal Writer: Batewoman: Amish people pay income and property taxes just like everyone else, so really they are their roads and their "worldly reflective signs" just as much as they're yours although more importantly it's their right to practice their religion freely. Welcome to America.

Religious freedom is pretty much American propaganda, otherwise anyone can start a religion and otherwise illegal acts would be permitted. Religious expression is somewhat tolerated, but religious freedom only exists in the sense that you are free to obey the law except in rare obscure circumstances where public outcry is capable of being defended against.


senile-felines.com

Dobbs approved

Remember kids, only $30 for eternal salvation OR TRIPLE YOUR MONEY BACK!

subgenius.com
 
2008-07-15 01:22:47 PM  
Wouldn't it be obvious that they are slow moving?
Or, do they just want to remind people of this fact as they walk by parked Buggies?

"Ooh, honey look.. That's one of the slow moving Buggies."
 
2008-07-15 01:44:29 PM  
shower_in_my_socksIt's called hypocrisy. They won't use reflective signs on their buggies because they're supposedly too modern, but they're perfectly happy using our modern paved roads. Pavement is OK but reflective signs aren't? Seems like a pretty convenient place to draw the line and it amounts to a weak argument on their part.

THIS. If you want to shun modern society, then fine. But if you're wearing glasses, or receive treatment for cancer, or use a telephone for emergencies, then you have to also join the rest of society and deal with the repercussions of such technology. The modern world comes with unique benefits and challenges. You can't accept the benefits without accepting the challenges.
 
2008-07-15 03:08:32 PM  
Mr. Right: This is a case where a conservative order of Amish don't want to be worldly and they view the SMV triangle as an evil symbol. They think reflective tape is too showy.

They just need to get their mind right. It's plain black tape that completely rejects the worldly showiness of light from car headlights and returns it straight back to the sender!
 
2008-07-15 08:05:48 PM  
I've had this same problem with the hasidim. They come upstate for the summer, no problem. They rent bungaloes, no problem. They dress a little funny, some of them talk funny, they open up little ethnic food stores for the summer, no problem.

It's when they go out at night in those ankle length black coats and stroll along the edge of our narrow, twisty, unlit roads that I have a problem. I don't mind that they stroll along inches away from chrome plated, fuel injected high velocity all American death, complete with Bose surround sound and nav system. I mind that they force me to be part of it.
 
2008-07-15 10:59:56 PM  
I guess going to the emergency room is too worldly, too.
 
2008-07-15 11:37:05 PM  
RandyJohnson: quietude38: Believe it or not, I'm actually covering this trial for the local newspaper. I would link some stuff, but we don't have a website.

These aren't your garden-variety Amish; they're a particularly conservative sect called the Swartzentruber Amish (new window) who are extremely conservative.

Before the ACLU took over, three of them got a public defender to take the case pro bono, and he's in the midst of appealing the case up the line after the circuit court judge upheld their convictions.

They've threatened to move out of the county if the convictions stand, but I have my doubts about whether or not that'll happen, because they've got a lot of land that no one else is going to buy.

Isn't every case a public defender take pro bono?

On this case, all I have to add. Just leave them alone.


Not in this case, no. They weren't eligible for a public defender, but he took the case outside the public defender's office pro bono.
 
2008-07-15 11:52:25 PM  
Thia Amish buggy complies with the United States Department of Health, Education and Welfare requirements applicable to 1971 model year new Amish buggies, This Amish buggy is not legal for sale or use in the State of California.
 
2008-07-16 08:28:38 AM  
img165.imageshack.us
 
2008-07-16 04:10:00 PM  
Batewoman: it's their right to practice their religion freely. Welcome to America.

Not when it runs the risk of endangering other people. Welcome to civilized life.
 
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