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(The New York Times)   Obama lays out clear plan for Iraq withdrawal in NY Times op-ed   (nytimes.com) divider line 148
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2333 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Jul 2008 at 8:56 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-07-14 09:15:43 PM
I want to hear his plan on how we get our hands on all of that low sulfur crude that comes at some of the cheapest lifting costs in the world. I hope we didn't burn 4000 American Boys and Girls to walk away with nothing more than the warm fuzzy feeling of having bestowed some temporary semblance of "Democracy" on a nation full of theologically obsessed rug merchants. Anybody here watched people from this region do business, like negotiate a car wash? They're on the verge of Civil War when they are ordering food, We'll have to make it clear we would go back in if it goes south.

Pulling out is only half of it. We have to be willing to go back in, when it is time.
 
2008-07-14 09:16:35 PM
Wow, that editorial was extremely poor. Obama's going to get attacked hard for this that. He's trying to own all good sides of the Iraq War history.

He praises Bush and the surge for the amazing success it has had. Then he says we should have never had the surge. He proudly announces the Iraqi prime minister's view on timetables finally matches his views. Except for years prior, Iraqi government views have not matched his, because they needed US troops to keep the country together. He claims the Iraq War has cost us 1 trillion, when actual numbers are hundreds and of billions of dollars less than that.

What a naive and slimey editorial.
 
2008-07-14 09:17:44 PM
this that = this...

/Must learn to preview
//Oh well, I tossed in my flame, now I'm out for a couple hours.
 
2008-07-14 09:19:08 PM
helix400: this that = this...

/Must learn to preview
//Oh well, I tossed in my flame, now I'm out for a couple hours.


Thats right. Throw a molotov cocktail and leave. Typical hippy radical

/wait... What?
 
2008-07-14 09:20:30 PM
Apik0r0s: I want to hear his plan on how we get our hands on all of that low sulfur crude that comes at some of the cheapest lifting costs in the world. I hope we didn't burn 4000 American Boys and Girls to walk away with nothing more than the warm fuzzy feeling of having bestowed some temporary semblance of "Democracy" on a nation full of theologically obsessed rug merchants. Anybody here watched people from this region do business, like negotiate a car wash? They're on the verge of Civil War when they are ordering food, We'll have to make it clear we would go back in if it goes south.

Pulling out is only half of it. We have to be willing to go back in, when it is time.


So ... what do you define as a 'win' in this mess?
 
2008-07-14 09:21:50 PM
helix400: He claims the Iraq War has cost us 1 trillion, when actual numbers are hundreds and of billions of dollars less than that.

Once again, you unload a whole dump truck of bullshiat on the thread. Try honesty.
 
2008-07-14 09:22:08 PM
Mordant: Vote Republican in 2008 and support a plan.

Republican plan = Stay forever having complete comtempt for Iraqi soveriegnty.
 
2008-07-14 09:22:34 PM
helix400: He praises Bush and the surge for the amazing success it has had. Then he says we should have never had the surge. He proudly announces the Iraqi prime minister's view on timetables finally matches his views. Except for years prior, Iraqi government views have not matched his, because they needed US troops to keep the country together. He claims the Iraq War has cost us 1 trillion, when actual numbers are hundreds and of billions of dollars less than that.

His point, and the point of all us anti-surge folks, is that the surge did a good job at keeping violence down, but it didn't advance the endgame at all. It was an increase in pressure which put down violence, but the moment the pressure is let up, violence will spike again. There were no long term gains. If you look at Iraq pre-surge and post-surge, what exactly is the difference? What did we gain?
 
2008-07-14 09:24:00 PM
Hang On Voltaire: FTFA: "In the 18 months since President Bush announced the surge, our troops have performed heroically in bringing down the level of violence. New tactics have protected the Iraqi population, and the Sunni tribes have rejected Al Qaeda - greatly weakening its effectiveness."

That's great Senator considering you said before the surge: "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.'"


OMG HE ADMITTED HE WAS WRONG!!!1!1 FLIP FLOPPER!1!1!!

Seriously, isn't that a good thing? He didn't think it would work, now he thinks maybe it has, so he's giving credit where credit is due.

Oh, I forgot, he's a DemocRAT so he can't do anything right.
 
2008-07-14 09:25:03 PM
I like it
 
2008-07-14 09:26:11 PM
Was that said before or after the U.S. started paying bribes to the the Sunnis, Hang On Voltaire?
 
2008-07-14 09:26:39 PM
AbsolutTBomb

I like it

I disagree.
 
2008-07-14 09:30:28 PM
Odds this specific plan will be remembered in a week when all the Republicans/Fark IndependentsTM start bashing Obama for being all rhetoric and no plans again -

3-1
 
2008-07-14 09:32:03 PM
Operation flip flop II is the most pathetic thing I have ever witnessed.

It's great to see these tactics starting to choke to death on their own stupidity.
 
2008-07-14 09:32:40 PM
The surge has had positive effects. To say it "worked" however is a lot of spin. It failed to accomplish its goals in the given time frame. While I cheer any progress made before or after the fact, the surge unquestionably failed in its stated goals.

You can't turn in your term paper a year after the class ended and expect to get your F changed to an A (especially when it's still not complete).
 
2008-07-14 09:33:41 PM
It's like Obama doesn't even have a Czechloslovakia position.
 
2008-07-14 09:33:46 PM
The RIchest Man in Babylon: Seriously, isn't that a good thing? He didn't think it would work, now he thinks maybe it has, so he's giving credit where credit is due.

as opposed to the one who knew all along that it would work?
 
2008-07-14 09:35:20 PM
Hang On Voltaire

That's great Senator considering you said before the surge: "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.'"


Well, Rumsfeld had only been gone for a month when he Hussein Obama said that. You can't blame the man for underestimating what the Republicans could accomplish with 20,000 troops at that time.

And I am still unconvinced that the Surge is any sort of long term winner. There's a big fault running through that country...
 
2008-07-14 09:35:37 PM
Boritom: coma: Crazy as the thought may be, perhaps forcibly staying in a country we invaded to "liberate" after they ask us to leave might just be looked upon as imperial aggression into their lands.

THIS!!!!!


Your response makes me think of A Nightmare Before Christmas - when Jack is singing the "what is THIS?" song.

What. Is. THIS!!?
/But seriously, can someone sum the article up in a sentence for me? I don't want to have to actually read it.
//Like, could someone turn it into a bumper sticker slogan? That's all my brain can handle after skimming the Tucker Max - Michael Ian Black superfight thread.
 
2008-07-14 09:36:01 PM
Louder And More Dissonant: It's like Obama doesn't even have a Czechloslovakia position.

Czechloslovakia position? It's this one right?

tbn0.google.com
 
2008-07-14 09:38:55 PM
captain_napalm: The RIchest Man in Babylon: Seriously, isn't that a good thing? He didn't think it would work, now he thinks maybe it has, so he's giving credit where credit is due.

as opposed to the one who knew all along that it would work?


What?
 
2008-07-14 09:39:45 PM
Nice read. Good to know he doesn't have a one track mind.
 
2008-07-14 09:40:31 PM
rppp01a
So ... what do you define as a 'win' in this mess?


100bbl

Oh, and to keep the same from the Chicom.
 
2008-07-14 09:40:59 PM
Thrag: The surge has had positive effects. To say it "worked" however is a lot of spin. It failed to accomplish its goals in the given time frame. While I cheer any progress made before or after the fact, the surge unquestionably failed in its stated goals.

You can't turn in your term paper a year after the class ended and expect to get your F changed to an A (especially when it's still not complete).


I think the question we all need to ask is this. Are your dead Iraqis better of now than they were four years ago? Mine aren't.
 
2008-07-14 09:45:51 PM
FTA: Unlike Senator McCain, I would make it absolutely clear that we seek no presence in Iraq similar to our permanent bases in South Korea

THIS is the big difference between McCain and Obama. Right here. Next time some detractor, "independent" or otherwise, tries to tell you there's no difference on what we'll do in Iraq between McCain and Obama, this is what you ought to remember, and what you ought to remind them of.

This is actually the most important issue regarding Iraq, to me. It will determine the long-term repercussions of this war more than any other factor. It will, for most of the world and the middle east in particular, answer the question: is it really possible that the Americans are here with good intentions, or was it all a ploy to excuse the expansion of American strategic dominance all along?

If we make Iraq into another US military outpost - a permanent occupation like Korea or Japan; if we force US oil companies on Iraq with the intention of allowing them to control the entire industry in that country; if we prove much of what the insurgents say about us to be true, how can we possibly withdraw with honor?

John McCain, like the Bushies, truly is a neocon on the Iraq issue and almost every other foreign policy issue. He believes it is our place and our right to dominate the world, and that lies and prevarications to not only those he may wish to occupy, but to his own people are the rightful tools of leaders to wield against their population in the pursuit of power - in the pursuit of what he sees as a glorious American hegemony. A New American Century.

That is the neocon agenda, and it NEEDS to die here not just for the sake of our possible future "intervention" targets, but for our own long-term interests that rely upon fear as a last resort, not as a blunt instrument with which to extort what we desire.

This is really important to me. It's not something I would have expected Kerry to do. It's not something I would have ever expected Clinton to do, and it's certainly not something I would expect McCain to do. As long as Obama remains consistent on it, I have hope that we can salvage the long-term situation in Iraq and even the larger "war on terror".
 
2008-07-14 09:46:01 PM
Hang On Voltaire: That's great Senator considering you said before the surge: "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.'"

What's your point?
 
2008-07-14 09:46:33 PM
moops: Mordant: Vote Republican in 2008 and support a plan.

Republican plan = Stay forever having complete comtempt for Iraqi soveriegnty.



Republican's don't have plans anymore. They make vague statements about taxes being too high or morals being too loose, all the while tiring down their opponents or his plans.


Welcome to the new Republican party.
 
2008-07-14 09:48:27 PM
Prospero424: This is really important to me. It's not something I would have expected Kerry to do. It's not something I would have ever expected Clinton to do, and it's certainly not something I would expect McCain to do. As long as Obama remains consistent on it, I have hope that we can salvage the long-term situation in Iraq and even the larger "war on terror".

You know what would be a great question to ask McCain in a debate. Something like this:

"Senator McCain, you have said you are willing to stay in Iraq for 100 years as a peaceful military presence. You have compared your goal in Iraq to the permanent military bases in South Korea, Japan, and Europe. Senator, in light of these international bases and indefinite presence which you support, do you consider the United States an empire?"
 
2008-07-14 09:49:16 PM
LocalCynic: Hang On Voltaire: That's great Senator considering you said before the surge: "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.'"

What's your point?




I think his point was WHARGARBL.
 
2008-07-14 10:06:58 PM
DamnYankees: "Senator McCain, you have said you are willing to stay in Iraq for 100 years as a peaceful military presence. You have compared your goal in Iraq to the permanent military bases in South Korea, Japan, and Europe. Senator, in light of these international bases and indefinite presence which you support, do you consider the United States an empire?"

Meh, he'd enjoy any question that lets him play the macho man for his base. He'd just redefine the term "empire" to mean freedom and goodness and puppies and kittens and imply that anyone who doesn't want that kind of American power in the world is just a terrorist cuddler.

You know, just like Bush would do...

;)
 
2008-07-14 10:07:56 PM
If this wasn't ghost written, Obama is an excellent writer. Curious on one use of Mesopotamia, "going after any remnants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia". I can't recall someone using Mesopotamia except in reference to the ancient civilization. No biggie, just caught my eye.
 
2008-07-14 10:09:46 PM
DamnYankees: Prospero424: This is really important to me. It's not something I would have expected Kerry to do. It's not something I would have ever expected Clinton to do, and it's certainly not something I would expect McCain to do. As long as Obama remains consistent on it, I have hope that we can salvage the long-term situation in Iraq and even the larger "war on terror".

You know what would be a great question to ask McCain in a debate. Something like this:

"Senator McCain, you have said you are willing to stay in Iraq for 100 years as a peaceful military presence. You have compared your goal in Iraq to the permanent military bases in South Korea, Japan, and Europe. Senator, in light of these international bases and indefinite presence which you support, do you consider the United States an empire?"


And wouldn't it be great to live in a world where a politician would answer a question honestly? Imagine how interesting the debates, and politics in general, would be.
 
2008-07-14 10:14:55 PM
atlanta_ufo: If this wasn't ghost written, Obama is an excellent writer. Curious on one use of Mesopotamia, "going after any remnants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia". I can't recall someone using Mesopotamia except in reference to the ancient civilization. No biggie, just caught my eye.

He's just trying to be like McCain with the old-school country name references.

(Actually, Mesopotamia = Μεσοποταμία = land between two rivers; Al Qeada in Iraq = Tanzim Qaidat Al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn = Al Qaeda in the land of two rivers.)
 
2008-07-14 10:17:45 PM
atlanta_ufo: If this wasn't ghost written, Obama is an excellent writer. Curious on one use of Mesopotamia, "going after any remnants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia". I can't recall someone using Mesopotamia except in reference to the ancient civilization. No biggie, just caught my eye.

He'd just gotten 10,000 BC on Netflix.

Actually, it was probably just a reference to "Iraq and surrounding areas," if I've got my geography right.

/10,000 BC, if you haven't seen it, don't waste your time
 
2008-07-14 10:19:26 PM
Donald_McRonald: atlanta_ufo: If this wasn't ghost written, Obama is an excellent writer. Curious on one use of Mesopotamia, "going after any remnants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia". I can't recall someone using Mesopotamia except in reference to the ancient civilization. No biggie, just caught my eye.

He's just trying to be like McCain with the old-school country name references.

(Actually, Mesopotamia = Μεσοποταμία = land between two rivers; Al Qeada in Iraq = Tanzim Qaidat Al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn = Al Qaeda in the land of two rivers.)


Ah, I didn't know that about AQI. I've read too many Zecharia Sitchen books and Mesopotamia is at the hub of all his writings.
 
2008-07-14 10:19:56 PM
Mesopotamia is actually a bit more of an inclusive term than Iraq. It includes parts of neighboring countries like Syria.
 
2008-07-14 10:20:55 PM
But this is not a strategy for success - it is a strategy for staying that runs contrary to the will of the Iraqi people, the American people and the security interests of the United States. That is why, on my first day in office, I would give the military a new mission: ending this war.

When the article reads like this, there is little more that needs to be said.
 
2008-07-14 10:21:09 PM
GoRedSoxGo: Actually, it was probably just a reference to "Iraq and surrounding areas," if I've got my geography right.

Exactly.

GoRedSoxGo: /10,000 BC, if you haven't seen it, don't waste your time

Seriously. PoS.
 
2008-07-14 10:22:04 PM
bwesb: But this is not a strategy for success - it is a strategy for staying that runs contrary to the will of the Iraqi people, the American people and the security interests of the United States. That is why, on my first day in office, I would give the military a new mission: ending this war.

When the article reads like this, there is little more that needs to be said.


I cant tell if your comment supports Obama or opposed him.
 
2008-07-14 10:22:18 PM
Hang On Voltaire:
FTFA: "In the 18 months since President Bush announced the surge, our troops have performed heroically in bringing down the level of violence. New tactics have protected the Iraqi population, and the Sunni tribes have rejected Al Qaeda - greatly weakening its effectiveness."

That's great Senator considering you said before the surge: "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.'"


You mean it's possible that Obama can change his mind-- unlike the Boy King you can't stop worshiping? No matter how many times he's been wrong?
 
2008-07-14 10:23:43 PM
captain_napalm: as opposed to the one who knew all along that it would work?

It hasn't worked. At least not as advertised. Wasn't this whole surge stupidity supposed to last six months, like the last plan that was supposed to work in six months after we waited six months for that one?
 
2008-07-14 10:26:26 PM
Hang On Voltaire:
FTFA: "In the 18 months since President Bush announced the surge, our troops have performed heroically in bringing down the level of violence. New tactics have protected the Iraqi population, and the Sunni tribes have rejected Al Qaeda - greatly weakening its effectiveness."

That's great Senator considering you said before the surge: "I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.'"


Wait, isn't that what you wanted? For Americans to see the light and to acknowledge that the surge was working? I'm confused here.
 
2008-07-14 10:27:29 PM
If I had a dollar for every girl who got pregnant after she believed her boyfriend who promised her that he "had a clear plan for withdrawal" I'd be a millionaire. Don't be that girlfriend.

"Just words." - Obama
 
2008-07-14 10:28:42 PM
atlanta_ufo: If this wasn't ghost written, Obama is an excellent writer. Curious on one use of Mesopotamia, "going after any remnants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia". I can't recall someone using Mesopotamia except in reference to the ancient civilization. No biggie, just caught my eye.

It's a regional name still in use. Like Yucatan, New England, the Antilles, or more boring English regional names like the Mid-Atlantic", Pacific Northwest or Great Plains (actually in it's native language Mesopotamia is pretty boring, basically it's "the land between the rivers").
 
2008-07-14 10:32:42 PM
Thrag: It's a regional name still in use. Like Yucatan, New England, the Antilles, or more boring English regional names like the Mid-Atlantic", Pacific Northwest or Great Plains (actually in it's native language Mesopotamia is pretty boring, basically it's "the land between the rivers").

Isn't every name boring in its own language if you go back to when it was formed?
 
2008-07-14 10:34:31 PM
DamnYankees: Isn't every name boring in its own language if you go back to when it was formed?

Not Mongolia. Hehehehe.
 
2008-07-14 10:35:07 PM
DamnYankees: Isn't every name boring in its own language if you go back to when it was formed?

photo.goliathus.com
 
2008-07-14 10:35:51 PM
The original objectives for the war have already failed. There wasn't a WMD program for us to dismantle, and a majority of the Al Qaeda presence in Iraq didn't exist until we showed up. Based off of the original objectives, the war cannot be won. The idea that we would continue to wage a war that has already failed is absurd.

McCain and the other Republicans who continue to not only support the war, but claim that they would do it again if they had the chance, are grasping at political straws, continually setting the goal posts farther and farther back in a desperate attempt to make the American lives that have been lost there mean something. First it was about WMDs. FAIL. Then it was about fighting all of those legions of Al Qaeda fighters that Hussein was harboring. FAIL. Then it was about setting up a Western-style democracy. FAIL. Then it was about stopping the insurgency before it ran out of people to ethnically cleanse. FAIL. The torture pictures from Abu Ghraib were just an isolated incident concocted by bottom-rung troops on the ground, with no systematic orders from the top. FAIL.

Now it's about awarding no-bid contracts to American oil companies and setting up permanent bases from which to further provoke Iran, which, coincidentally, is EXACTLY what the war's original detractors warned us that this war was really all about from the beginning.

We need to walk away from Iraq, and then continue to switch away from oil-based energy sources so that we can walk away from the Middle East completely. Throwing a few of our "leaders" to the Hague would be a nice bonus, but of course it will never happen.
 
2008-07-14 10:36:12 PM
Prospero424: DamnYankees: Isn't every name boring in its own language if you go back to when it was formed?

Not Mongolia. Hehehehe.


What do you mean? The name comes from the Mongolian word for "brave".
 
2008-07-14 10:36:24 PM
Alien Robot: If I had a dollar for every girl who got pregnant after she believed her boyfriend who promised her that he "had a clear plan for withdrawal" I'd be a millionaire. Don't be that girlfriend.

"Just words." - Obama


Well, he's described that plan pretty well. As opposed to McCain, who says that he has no problem with his kids playing in the middle of the freeway as long as there aren't any cars there.
 
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