markie_farkie: shiat. Can you imagine what the ticket would cost for blowing through the red-light camera on that?

About the cost of your funeral?

So to improve safety the overworked air traffic controllers now need to turn on a light switch while to signal the pilots what they are already being told over the radio. This makes perfect sense.

BigDumbGuy: So to improve safety the overworked air traffic controllers now need to turn on a light switch while to signal the pilots what they are already being told over the radio. This makes perfect sense.

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy.

hiltinuts2: BigDumbGuy: So to improve safety the overworked air traffic controllers now need to turn on a light switch while to signal the pilots what they are already being told over the radio. This makes perfect sense.

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy.

I just hope that someone will think of the children.

Tr0mBoNe: Hire more Air Traffic Controllers. It's cheaper and easier.

try to.

there is a massive shortage, and even huge sign-on bonuses arent helping much.

"The runway safety system announced Monday involves lighting systems to be installed at 21 airports over the next three years. The lights change color to signal when a runway is safe to enter or cross, according to a description posted on the FAA's Web site."

Hasn't this been the status quo for rail lines for more than a century now, and automated?

NikolaiFarkoff: Sh*t it's yellow GO GO GO

Win

NikolaiFarkoff: I think the redundancy is great. Remember, these lights are for the taxiing airplanes, not the ones landing and taking off. Preventing the stupid ground collisions should be a high priority, since those are much more avoidable than in-air accidents.

Absolutely. These are key to any good surface management systems.
While not as high-tech as ADS-B, it's certainly a frickin' start.



/Delta 396 you are cleared for runway 23-L, DO NOT DELAY THE ROLLOUT!

/GIS for "airplane oops"

As an Air Traffic Controller, I think this is a terribly stupid idea. They can't use some colours, half the foreign pilots won't know what the hell it means (they can barely understand directions as is), it's more workload for the controllers (ie, me) and, it adds yet more visual clutter to an already alarming amount of it during airport night operations.

Pilots are generally smart. They have to read back Hold Shorts in taxi clearances at the moment, the runway is no go unless you have permission, and good pilots make a check to ensure there is no inbound traffic before entering.

Better late than never.

At controlled aiports (airports with control towers), you need CLEARANCE to enter or cross a runway. If you need to re-iterate to a pilot the fact that he doesn't have clearance by putting up traffic lights at the taxiway intersections, that pilot should not be flying a commercial airliner. He shouldn't be allowed to drive a riding lawn mower for that matter.

Sure, give 'em traffic lights. Give 'em a big breast to suck on, too. Why not?

Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads.

The pilots mistakenly traveled down a runway too short for takeoff and the aircraft crashed, killing 49 of the 50 people aboard.

Wow imagine being the one who survived. I would go buy a lotto ticket immediately.

hiltinuts2

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy.

you can say that again

kjwulff: Give 'em a big breast to suck on, too.

You know what, I like this plan better.

I'm with tiiger, but from the pilot point of view. If everyone would remember to LOOK down the runway before they taxi onto it we wouldn't have these problems.

eyefarkno: I'm studying for my private pilot's license and the section on runway lighting is confusing as hell. A friend who is a commercial pilot told me that getting around an unfamiliar airport at night can be bewildering as it is.

Having said all that, I'd have to agree with those who say redundancy is a good thing but all things in moderation.

Good for you. I hope you go all the way with your flight instruction. It'll change your life.

Student Pilot's Best Friend: Ask for "progressive taxi instructions" and the controller will give you "turn left at the next taxiway", etc. all the way to your parking spot. Don't worry - on the radio you can't hear the other pilots laughing at you, and turning the wrong way into a taxiing Lear Jet is WAY more embarrassing.

/loved flying, but haven't for 11 years
//kids are time-consuming and expensive

Just as long as I don't get stuck behind the old lady pilot with her left blinker on.

IXI Jim IXI: Just as long as I don't get stuck behind the old lady pilot with her left blinker on.

Cadillac doesn't make airplanes.

big_league_chewbacca: hiltinuts2

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy.

you can say that again

What you did there, I see what you did.

Brake check!

Seriously, traffic lights is pretty simple logic. It has been set up for trains for some time now. For the critical parts of airplane operations (take off and landing), isn't the geometry more 2d than 3d?

NeuroticMan: I'm with tiiger, but from the pilot point of view. If everyone would remember to LOOK down the runway before they taxi onto it we wouldn't have these problems.

Good pilots are rarely involved in ATC Operating Irregularities. It's always the sloppy pilots, the foreign pilots, or the hotshot/newbie pilots.

Here's another issue to consider, I've worked a runway with 3 entry points for departures, and had a/c lining up in each. Most runways have at least 6 entrances, that's six independent switches for these 'stoplights' that an ATC has to manage. That's six mistakes waiting to happen.

Reducing ATC and pilot workload will do more to help avoid these incidents than any of this 'worried response solutions' will. To the people who are talking about redundancy: That's not helpful in this case. It increases ATC workload, and will lead to more errors, not less.

larrimo: big_league_chewbacca: hiltinuts2

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy.

you can say that again

What you did there, I see what you did.

Ahhhhh. Well-played.

I remember being taxied around the runways in a passenger bus from terminal to terminal in LAX... and we get to a sign that reads "Yield to airplanes". I'm thinking "WTF?" and then a farking jet carts by before us... scared the shiat out of me because the bus driver had a "should I make a run for it?" moment. Dude, it's a farking Boeing, do _not_ make a run for it. Or at least wait until I get off.

˙noʎ uo ƃuıʇunoɔ llɐ ǝɹ,ǝʍ 'ʞɔnl pooƃ ɥʇoq noʎ llǝʇ ɐuuɐʍ ʇsnɾ I

tiiger: NeuroticMan: I'm with tiiger, but from the pilot point of view. If everyone would remember to LOOK down the runway before they taxi onto it we wouldn't have these problems.

Good pilots are rarely involved in ATC Operating Irregularities. It's always the sloppy pilots, the foreign pilots, or the hotshot/newbie pilots.

Here's another issue to consider, I've worked a runway with 3 entry points for departures, and had a/c lining up in each. Most runways have at least 6 entrances, that's six independent switches for these 'stoplights' that an ATC has to manage. That's six mistakes waiting to happen.

Reducing ATC and pilot workload will do more to help avoid these incidents than any of this 'worried response solutions' will. To the people who are talking about redundancy: That's not helpful in this case. It increases ATC workload, and will lead to more errors, not less.

This. Ronald Reagan, love him or hate him, said it best: the scariest words you'll evar hear are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help..."

Didn't the Jetsons (and more recently Futurama) already introduce this idea?

Ronald Reagan, love him or hate him, said it best: the scariest words you'll evar hear are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help..."

This was right before he used his stature as head of the government to force the striking air traffic controllers to STFU & GBTW, right?

hiltinuts2: BigDumbGuy: So to improve safety the overworked air traffic controllers now need to turn on a light switch while to signal the pilots what they are already being told over the radio. This makes perfect sense.

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy.

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy, when lives are on the line.

TheGreyPiper: hiltinuts2: BigDumbGuy: So to improve safety the overworked air traffic controllers now need to turn on a light switch while to signal the pilots what they are already being told over the radio. This makes perfect sense.

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy.

When lives are on the line, there is nothing wrong with redundancy, when lives are on the line.

There is nothing wrong with redundancy, when lives are on the line, when lives are on the line.

tiiger: As an Air Traffic Controller, I think this is a terribly stupid idea. They can't use some colours, half the foreign pilots won't know what the hell it means (they can barely understand directions as is), it's more workload for the controllers (ie, me) and, it adds yet more visual clutter to an already alarming amount of it during airport night operations.

Pilots are generally smart. They have to read back Hold Shorts in taxi clearances at the moment, the runway is no go unless you have permission, and good pilots make a check to ensure there is no inbound traffic before entering.

My guess is you're a controller at a smaller field, or doing terminal/enroute work. Yes, I agree pilots are generally smart, however why do we still have runway incursions even though they are required to read back clearances?

I'm personally doing the planning work for these Runway Status Lights at O'Hare. O'Hare is one of the airports that needs these at the moment. As I sit here looking at the airport diagram for O'Hare, I see at least 8 hot spots on the map.

Anyways, these lights won't add any workload for the controller. It is an automated system using sensors to detect aircraft on the runway and in-pavement lighting along lead in centerlines and runway thresholds to warn pilots against aircraft on a runway. There is no reason not to have them.

Could be worse. In Gisborne, New Zealand, there are lights to control the crossing of a railway line across the runway.

I'm from the Department of Redundancy Department, and I grant this thread our seal of approval seal from the Department of Redundancy Department.

Last month, when flying into Salt Lake with my family, we had a scary incident occur. The plane was just about to land, maybe 5-10 feet off the ground, when the plane suddenly pulled up. We kept elevating for about 5 minutes, away from the airport, and nothing was said. The stewardesses were all calm, so I didn't figure we were being hi-jacked. I was thinking possibly landing gear failure. Finally the captain comes on and tells us that he had to abort because a plane was on the runway preparing for takeoff. I don't know how close it was, but I'm guessing the 5 minutes of silence was due to him changing his shorts and cursing out somebody. It was long 5 minutes of not knowing.

Maybe use these instead...

sarcastrophe: I'm from the Department of Redundancy Department, and I grant this thread our seal of approval seal from the Department of Redundancy Department.

Please, no more redundant posts please.

costermonger: poot_rootbeer: This was right before he used his stature as head of the government to force the striking air traffic controllers to STFU & GBTW, right?

I thought it was more of a STFU & GTFO.

vento: Question to them: Do you think the only real answer is better airport runway / taxiway design?

I'm gonna break ranks here and suggest that anything that might prevent a runway incursion when I'm the guy who's supposed to be on that runway is going to get a chance on principle alone. As much as people believe that "good pilots" don't screw up, I can't personally evaluate the pilots flying around me, so I want things as idiot proof as possible. I strive to be as prepared and aware as I can, but that doesn't protect me from the other guys out there.

Airport taxiway design could certainly make a difference, but amount of money necessary to implement changes on a widespread basis would be astronomical.

Right, enough of this serious talk. Please help in making this a very silly thread.
Yours,
The Hon. Vice Admiral N. D. Gumby (Mrs)