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(Wall Street Journal)   Senate Armed Services Committee questions Pentagon lawyers over interrogation techniques used at Gitmo. If only there were some method by which these lawyers could be forced to tell the truth   (online.wsj.com) divider line 129
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1837 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jun 2008 at 9:17 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-06-18 11:54:49 AM  
listen, jackasses: nobody wants to coddle actual terrorists. nobody. but alleged terrorists should have the same rights as you or i. it's the american thing to do. and if you oppose that, you're a farking scumbag traitor as far as i'm concerned and should go live in saudi arabia or china or someplace that doesn't give a shiat about human rights.
 
2008-06-18 11:55:50 AM  
The Icelander: Subby fails. Torture doesn't produce the truth. It produces whatever the torturer wants to hear to make it stop.

What if the "torturer" wants to hear truth?
 
2008-06-18 11:57:27 AM  
Shaggy_C: Republicans support the troops!

(Just not troops from countries where they allow FAGS to live.)


webpages.charter.net
 
2008-06-18 11:58:23 AM  
MasterThief: The Icelander: Subby fails. Torture doesn't produce the truth. It produces whatever the torturer wants to hear to make it stop.

What if the "torturer" wants to hear truth?


our own military says that torture doesn't work for precisely this reason. do you think "24" is real and our own military is not?
 
2008-06-18 12:16:51 PM  
What if the "torturer" wants to hear truth?

The argument is that the "torturer" comes into the toture with preconcieved ideas as to what information the victim has and if the victim doesn't relate the "information" as the "torturer" knows it, the torture will continue.
 
2008-06-18 12:21:18 PM  
tothekor: ...to support our troops in a war for our very survival.

*Inigo Montoya pic*

Do you really, honestly believe that radical Islam in its current incarnation could destroy the United States?
 
2008-06-18 12:38:23 PM  
Do you really, honestly believe that radical Islam in its current incarnation could destroy the United States?

I believe that terrorism in any form, if left unchecked, has the potential to bring down governments, including and especially big bulky governments like the United States. It's pretty much been proven time and time again. I see many similarities to what is going on in today's world to what happened during the fall of Rome. Replace Rome with the United States and add more advanced technology and you can see history repeating itself.
 
2008-06-18 12:42:07 PM  
tothekor: Replace Rome with the United States and add more advanced technology and you can see history repeating itself.

Well, considering the Republicans were suggesting military service as a path to citizenship for immigrants and the parallel to Rome using subjugated people in its army, I'd say we're about due for a good sacking.
 
2008-06-18 01:03:35 PM  
OccamsWhiskers: I understand there are pretty reliable ways to compel people to say anything, but it is apparently not at all reliable in constraining that to the truth.

But then, "the ends justify the means" isn't really what we hope to embrace, is it? The evidence that they don't makes it even sadder.


I'm still trying to see a downside to torturing all the lawyers... Anybody?
/getting them to speak the truth? They're LAWYERS, for Pete's sake!
 
2008-06-18 01:08:53 PM  
tothekor
I see many similarities to what is going on in today's world to what happened during the fall of Rome.

Dare I ask... what similarities might those be?
 
2008-06-18 01:14:06 PM  
Fapinator: I really don't think President Bush will ever be called to account for his actions, as much as I would like that to happen. In January he'll leave office. Then maybe he'll go around giving talks to conservative groups (for a pretty penny), or perhaps he'll just retire to Crawford and draw his memoirs in a pretty crayon coloring book.


This. You idiots elected him, and the rest of us hope you end up on a no-fly list and a few years a Gitmo for being so stupid.
 
2008-06-18 01:15:53 PM  
tothekor: I believe that terrorism in any form, if left unchecked, has the potential to bring down governments, including and especially big bulky governments like the United States.

Well, considering that, according to almost every definition of terrorism, that the United States military is in fact THE biggest terrorist organization in the world, that's funny.

When you drop 5000-lb bombs on a civilian target, knowing that there will be civilian casualties, but doing it anyway to prove a point to your enemy, you are commiting a terrorist act.

And yet you have the gall to call any form of resistance (even legitimate) against a foreign occupying force (yours) to be terrorism, and the perps can be shipped off to prisons, with no charge and tortured or killed without any records.

I'm sure it induces, hmmm, terror in the hearts and minds of their families, knowing that the USA has taken their dad or brother or son and is probably in the process of humiliating and destroying him.
 
2008-06-18 01:21:54 PM  
mrexcess: tothekor: I see many similarities to what is going on in today's world to what happened during the fall of Rome.

Dare I ask... what similarities might those be?


- The Roman government was filled corruption, similar to the types of things we see in our government now. Bribery, overspending, excessive overindulgences, etc.

- The Roman people had developed over time a sense of entitlement and selfishness. Not unlike us Americans.

- There were "barbarians" fighting on the fringes of the empire. These "barbarians" used tactics similar to terrorist tactics in Iraq today.

- Rome's attempts to enforce their ideas and culture on those they controlled was fuel for the "barbarian" fire.

- Rome's rulers used the ampitheater and gladiatorial games to distract the public away from the problems it wasn't solving. Similar to how T.V. and film have distracted the American public away from what our government is doing.

I'm sure there are more examples but off the top of my head these are what came to mind.
 
2008-06-18 01:48:13 PM  
tothekor: I believe that terrorism in any form, if left unchecked, has the potential to bring down governments, including and especially big bulky governments like the United States. It's pretty much been proven time and time again.

Where? When?

I see many similarities to what is going on in today's world to what happened during the fall of Rome. Replace Rome with the United States and add more advanced technology and you can see history repeating itself.

Rome was brought down by terrorists? Who knew?

Yes, I think your "war for survival" comment was a bit hyperbolic.
 
2008-06-18 02:18:13 PM  
tothekor: mrexcess: tothekor: I see many similarities to what is going on in today's world to what happened during the fall of Rome.

Dare I ask... what similarities might those be?

- The Roman government was filled corruption, similar to the types of things we see in our government now. Bribery, overspending, excessive overindulgences, etc.

- The Roman people had developed over time a sense of entitlement and selfishness. Not unlike us Americans.

- There were "barbarians" fighting on the fringes of the empire. These "barbarians" used tactics similar to terrorist tactics in Iraq today.

- Rome's attempts to enforce their ideas and culture on those they controlled was fuel for the "barbarian" fire.

- Rome's rulers used the ampitheater and gladiatorial games to distract the public away from the problems it wasn't solving. Similar to how T.V. and film have distracted the American public away from what our government is doing.

I'm sure there are more examples but off the top of my head these are what came to mind.


Simpler than that: google Lex Gabinia and then Compare and contrast to the Patriot Act.


It was a law granting Pompey Dictatorial powers (one of the first Rome ever passed) so that he could deal witht he threat of Pirates harrying the shores of the empire. It was passed after a small band of Pirates shocked the Roman people by carrying put a daring raid in which they kdnapped a senator and sacked an inalnd city. A frightened and Angry roman populace responded by basically tossing out their entire system of laws and giving Pompey nearly unlimited power in exchange for him keeping them safe.

Satayana's Curse is happening yet again.
 
2008-06-18 02:22:43 PM  
tothekor
The Roman government was filled corruption, similar to the types of things we see in our government now. Bribery, overspending, excessive overindulgences, etc.

The Roman government was basically *always* filled with corruption, though.

The Roman people had developed over time a sense of entitlement and selfishness. Not unlike us Americans.

Developed over time? Romans always felt entitled, as near as I can tell. Part of being a good Roman was knowing that you were better than everyone else!

If anything, most historians I've seen have cited the LOSS of that sense of pride/entitlement as one of the factors contributing to Rome's fall. The novelty of Rome war off for Romans, people didn't take the same interest when the cracks in the system began to show themselves, if they took notice at all. Most probably didn't because, by that point, the empire was so huge that nobody had a clear idea of the "big picture".

There were "barbarians" fighting on the fringes of the empire. These "barbarians" used tactics similar to terrorist tactics in Iraq today.

I have to say, I question the degree to which the tactics of Rome's enemies resemble the tactics of modern guerrilla, insurgent, and terrorist groups. Could you go into more detail as to the tactics to which you're referring?

Rome's attempts to enforce their ideas and culture on those they controlled was fuel for the "barbarian" fire.

But that was nothing new or exclusive to the fall of Rome, they *always* did that, and generally were pretty successful at it. Right?

Rome's rulers used the ampitheater and gladiatorial games to distract the public away from the problems it wasn't solving. Similar to how T.V. and film have distracted the American public away from what our government is doing.

That one's pretty astute (if cliche at this point), but "bread and circuses" was a popular tool even during the golden age of the Roman empire.

Although I don't necessarily buy the premise that it's intended to support, I would add one comparison of my own to the list: we're losing our sense of honor in the same way that Romans did. In any society, honor's value appears to drop as other forms of wealth increase... what you're willing to do in order to protect what you have changes, the more stuff you have to protect. "Selling out" sums it up, I suppose.
 
2008-06-18 02:25:00 PM  
Magorn: tothekor: mrexcess: tothekor: I see many similarities to what is going on in today's world to what happened during the fall of Rome.

Dare I ask... what similarities might those be?

- The Roman government was filled corruption, similar to the types of things we see in our government now. Bribery, overspending, excessive overindulgences, etc.

- The Roman people had developed over time a sense of entitlement and selfishness. Not unlike us Americans.

- There were "barbarians" fighting on the fringes of the empire. These "barbarians" used tactics similar to terrorist tactics in Iraq today.

- Rome's attempts to enforce their ideas and culture on those they controlled was fuel for the "barbarian" fire.

- Rome's rulers used the ampitheater and gladiatorial games to distract the public away from the problems it wasn't solving. Similar to how T.V. and film have distracted the American public away from what our government is doing.

I'm sure there are more examples but off the top of my head these are what came to mind.

Simpler than that: google Lex Gabinia and then Compare and contrast to the Patriot Act.


It was a law granting Pompey Dictatorial powers (one of the first Rome ever passed) so that he could deal witht he threat of Pirates harrying the shores of the empire. It was passed after a small band of Pirates shocked the Roman people by carrying put a daring raid in which they kdnapped a senator and sacked an inalnd city. A frightened and Angry roman populace responded by basically tossing out their entire system of laws and giving Pompey nearly unlimited power in exchange for him keeping them safe.

Satayana's Curse is happening yet again.


So if Pompey is Bush then Julius is Obama? Then who is Vorenus and Pulo?? Richardson is Brutus? Barbara Bush must be that evil biatch Livia.
 
2008-06-18 02:46:13 PM  
Occam's Chainsaw: Do you really, honestly believe that radical Islam in its current incarnation could destroy the United States?

About as much as I believe that this country's salvation lies in radical Christianity.
 
2008-06-18 03:52:39 PM  
Theaetetus: So, you're saying, as long as we're slightly better than the most inhuman terrorists the world has known because my flimsy political beliefs don't allow me to understand just how barbaric terrorists are, we're just ducky?

Theaetetus: Atreyou40, we should just kill them instead of taking them prisoner. No flag waving, no explanation or justification. Since "stressing them out" is so horrible, we should just kill them. The only effective weapon that the enemy has to use against us is moral obfuscation, and because the country is filled with people who have no backbone, a lack of convicaiton and an unfortunately justifiable contempt for our executive branch of government, we should spare our fighting men and women the addition post-traumatic stress of this crap by giving them a more solid line and a less smudgy one. Take no prisoners.

Magorn: Exactly how many "Al-qadea decpatiating someone " videos exist? 1? 2? Actually here are just a few ritual decapitations committed by poor, suffering, Al-Heroes that actually made the evening news:

Eugene Armstrong
Nick Berg
Kenneth Bigley
Jack Hensley
Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr.
Georgi Lazov
Daniel Pearl
Fabrizio Quattrocchi
Kim Sun-il

And though she was not decapitated, Margaret Hassan. I could pull up dozens more videos of poor nameless Indonesian truck drivers with their throats cut half-way through, so they're breathing through a terrorist tracheotomy - FREE MEDICAL PROCEDURE WOO-HOO - listening to them stand around and laugh, before they filled the guys neck with dirt, to suffocate him as they finished sawing his head off with a dull pocket knife. Yeah, that video exists. So do countless roadside and home invasion videos depicting execution by firearms, grenades, firing-squads, you name it, these freedom fighters are creative! But go on, as long as you can prove Bush is evil and our focused waterboarding in the attempt to acquire info is only "slightly" worse than what these people do to not just Americans, but everybody. Ooooh and I know this doesn't count as torture, but these are also the same people who strap explosives to retarded people and detonate them in crowded public places, but hey, at least they're not stressing them out. At least they're not waterboarading them. THAT would be cruel and inhumane. Decapitations, senseless murder of the innocent? Well, that's just a modern way of protest, so good on them!


Random Reality Check: Actually the number of "murders" committed at Abu Ghraib has been identified at 38. none of victims were ever identified as terrorist.

Oh, that report was compiled by an officer with an impeccable reputation.

Since I know you are "concerned" with the facts, here is the Taguba report. (new window)


First of all, I'm sure they weren't terrorists, they never are. Why I'm sure they were just herding their goats when *POOF* there they were in Abu Ghraib, being subjected to a triple Lindy and a Sgt. Chubby. That would've killed me too I guess. I'm sure all of those guys were sitting cross-legged on the floor of their cells, extolling the peaceful virtues of their religion when in came the Bush SS who beat them to death with a flaming copy of the Bill of rights. Yeah, I'm sure that in their dying breaths, they reached out with one last Daisy of Peace which they had to see stomped by the Stormtroopers as they passed from this life to the next. Imagine how stressful that must have been on the Poor, Peaceful 38.

I think it's fabulous that all of you apologists exist out there. God Bono knows that peace on earth depends on the endless, yet purpose inspired nagging and hand-wringing over the actions of the government and military of the most free and open society on the planet. (Used to be most educated, motivated, and productive society on the planet, but 40 years of the politics of shame and failed policies by all of our legislative "professionals" have changed that). Ah well, this isn't really a thread about how bad the other guys are. They're "the resistance" after all. This is a thread about how morally bankrupt we are and all the evil that our society perpetrates on the world, so keep up the good fight comrades, I'll be vigorously exercising my second-ammendment privileges while they still exist. MOTHERLAND!!!
 
2008-06-18 04:05:42 PM  
Atreyou40: Why I'm sure they were just herding their goats when *POOF* there they were in Abu Ghraib, being subjected to a triple Lindy and a Sgt. Chubby.

That's exactly what was determined for quite a number of prisoners who had been held for YEARS at Gitmo. "Oops, sorry. You had nothing to do with hostilities against us after all. Our bad. We're sending you home now, no hard feelings for losing five years of your life, ok?"
 
2008-06-18 05:57:05 PM  
Atreyou40
First of all, I'm sure they weren't terrorists, they never are.

Untrue, but then, it is also untrue that they always are.

But let me ask you this... let's say they are terrorists. Let's say you have Osama in custody yourself. Do you think it's right to torture him?

being subjected to a triple Lindy and a Sgt. Chubby

Among the substantiated abuse reports are one out of Bagram involving a man who died after being beaten so severely on one leg that it was, in the words of the Air Force coroner that examined them, "pulpified".

I trust you selected those two examples because they were the most severe ones you knew about, and not because you have an inherent desire to minimize this pattern of officially-sanctioned war crimes.
 
2008-06-18 06:00:39 PM  
The least you can do is to educate yourself about the atrocities that you so casually dismiss.
 
2008-06-18 10:21:07 PM  
Random Reality Check: Atreyou40: I can't wait to see all the decapitation videos we know exist of American soldiers standing in front of American flags, expressing their contempt for Muslims, airing a laundry list of grievances and then slowly sawing their heads off.

I can't WAIT. I'll bet those evil soldiers sawed off lots of heads.

Actually the number of "murders" committed at Abu Ghraib has been identified at 38. none of victims were ever identified as terrorist.

Oh, that report was compiled by an officer with an impeccable reputation.

Since I know you are "concerned" with the facts, here is the Taguba report. (new window)


Cue the crying baby sound.
 
2008-06-18 10:22:43 PM  
mrexcess: The least you can do is to educate yourself about the atrocities that you so casually dismiss.

Same as above. Why don't you go crying over something that matters.
 
2008-06-18 10:28:45 PM  
chtorran: But torture is such a perfect method of obtaining reliable information.

I mean, nobody would ever LIE to get the torture to stop. Right?


Worked with Kaleed Sheik Mohammed
 
2008-06-18 10:33:37 PM  
HotWingConspiracy: ExJerseyGirl: ManofPeas: Wait, sooooo the military captures terrorists and tries to interrogate them, aaaannnnnnd Democrats step in to stop it by interrogating the military in show trials?Democrats support the troops!(Just not our troops.)Idiot or troll? Hard to tell.Both. He has a stock of protest pictures that he spams over and over. Brace yourself.
Okay, but is he wrong?
 
2008-06-18 11:31:36 PM  
Marcus Aurelius
FTW after only one comment.
Well played sir, well played.
 
2008-06-18 11:57:35 PM  
FlashHarry: listen, jackasses: nobody wants to coddle actual terrorists. nobody. but alleged terrorists should have the same rights as you or i. it's the american thing to do. and if you oppose that, you're a farking scumbag traitor as far as i'm concerned and should go live in saudi arabia or china or someplace that doesn't give a shiat about human rights.

Oh god! THIS!

/lights cigarette since it was so good.
 
2008-06-19 12:58:51 PM  
limboslam
Why don't you go crying over something that matters.

So you're saying that officially sanctioned war crimes don't matter?
 
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