Sweaty Jerry: Always thought it was a damn shame that the Germans abandoned the use of the various gothic scripts - where's your teutonic edge?

Well, things got confused when you sent an order for twelve trainloads of coal to Romania, and, being unable to decipher your notes, they sent you a folk dance ensemble.

The_Pole_Of_Justice: Who wants to point out the GIGANTIC, GAPING HOLE in Kar98's argument? Anyone?

What, you mean the freaking point you missed entirely? The one I was trying to make here? About you can't farking read it if you can't write it and vice versa?

I write cursive when I use my fountain pens.
They're made for each other.

/writing can be sensual in technique as well as in words.

Kar98: Sweaty Jerry: Always thought it was a damn shame that the Germans abandoned the use of the various gothic scripts - where's your teutonic edge?

Well, things got confused when you sent an order for twelve trainloads of coal to Romania, and, being unable to decipher your notes, they sent you a folk dance ensemble.



Ah, okay. And then you've gotta set up camps where you can concentrate the undesired immigrants at until the orders get sorted out and it just becomes a huge hassle.

I've actually got a couple of German books printed in gothic script somewhere around here - stuff inherited from my Austrian grandfather. My grasp on German isn't all that great in the first place though...

thelordofcheese: CygnusDarius:
/My older brother's a system engineer with a major in AI intelligence and writes in cursive
//So he's getting a kick out of your replies

AI intelligence?

Now he works in the Department of Redundancy Department.

Not_This_Again: I used cursive for everything in college,for exams and taking notes. My friends would bust my chops over it, but it was much more natural and quicker so I didn't care.

/graduated 3 weeks ago.

I used cursive for everything, too. But then, so did everyone else in my classes.

/graduated 7 years ago

Kar98: The_Pole_Of_Justice: Who wants to point out the GIGANTIC, GAPING HOLE in Kar98's argument? Anyone?

What, you mean the freaking point you missed entirely? The one I was trying to make here? About you can't farking read it if you can't write it and vice versa?

WHAT??!?!

WHAT.

THE.

HELL.

Are you genuinely suggesting that you can only recognize a character if you can write it?

The entire nation of Japan would like a word with you.

Before you draw yet another bizarre conclusion, I'm not advocating what's happening in Japan. But your assertion that "you can't farking read it if you can't write it and vice versa" is utter fiction.

Sorry I misunderstood you, although in my defense what I thought you were saying was less dumb than what you actually said.

/I give up

taurusowner: Honestly, it's not as if people stopped learning how to write by hand at all. Like if there was a global EMP like in Escape from LA and no computers worked anywhere. People can still write in print. Cursive was only designed to be faster than printing, and printing became the back-up. Now typing is the faster way, and printing is still the back-up. Cursive is obsolete. As long as there is still a way to write by hand, ie printing, who cares.

This.

I can write cursive just fine. But I never write with it b/c anything I need to write fast and long I use a computer for. In high school and at the U, I used a sort of shorthand/chemistry symbols which were faster than cursive. Nobody really uses shorthand anymore either, do they?

The_Pole_Of_Justice: Are you genuinely suggesting that you can only recognize a character if you can write it?

The entire nation of Japan would like a word with you.


"So many Japanese are forgetting how to write kanji characters that cultural experts believe the country may eventually scrap the use of Chinese pictograms in favour of the 46 simplified hiragana characters."

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Have a good night.

Kar98: The_Pole_Of_Justice: Are you genuinely suggesting that you can only recognize a character if you can write it?

The entire nation of Japan would like a word with you.


"So many Japanese are forgetting how to write kanji characters that cultural experts believe the country may eventually scrap the use of Chinese pictograms in favour of the 46 simplified hiragana characters."


I live in Japan. So many people complain that they forget how to write kanji. However, not using kanji can result in misunderstanding what is written. Although that doesn't happen with speech. So then....kanji not required for speech, hiragana can be fully understood...why am I learning kanji? I like kanji!

Cursive writing is a way to show people around you that you respect them.

Jeff_from_MD

Soon, you sucky students are gonna wonder why we have to memorize multiplication tables I bet.

http://www.themathlab.com/writings/short%20stories/feeling.htm

That's what I get for reading most of Asimov's short stories. He's frequently a subtly glib, scathing bastard.

grapefruitgal: This story is exactly the reason I have my students learn to read cursive before I teach them how to write it.

/third-grade teacher

You still waste time teaching it???

Seriously?? Is it mandated in your school district?

Learning cursive truly was a waste of time even when my generation was in elementary school. Time better spent on actual education than learning an ancient skill.

/I'm 26

RCL: grapefruitgal: This story is exactly the reason I have my students learn to read cursive before I teach them how to write it.

/third-grade teacher

You still waste time teaching it???

Seriously?? Is it mandated in your school district?

Learning cursive truly was a waste of time even when my generation was in elementary school. Time better spent on actual education than learning an ancient skill.

/I'm 26

Yeah, you say that as if kids actually will bother learning something else.

Toshiro Mifune's Letter Opener: IN ALL FAIRNESS, PERHAPS THEY SHOULD START LEARNING HOW TO WRITE IN COMIC SANS STYLE

I had a chemistry professor that typed everything - the class syllabus, handouts, worksheets for the lab, online notes, even exams in comic sans font.

In my opinion, anything typed in comic sans is instantly labeled as non-professional. It annoyed me all semester.

Aulus:....second grade, 1956......my middle school students....

Nice, thoughtful post, Aulus. I did some quick-and-dirty math (without a calculator, or even paper and pencil) and figured you are approaching your 60th birthday. In an age when half of new K-12 teachers leave the field within about seven years, bravo to you for hanging in there all these years!

On a related note: I am always interested to ask longtime K-12 teachers "what has changed?--the parents, the culture, the kids work ethic, society, blah blah........." I've been a college teacher long enough to see definite changes, but I'd enjoy the perspective of someone in your position. Can you enlighten us? (no need to use the words "snowflake" or "crotchfruit")

myerlyn: I still write in cursive, my printing is awful. My cursive is almost legible.

I'm an exact opposite of that. My dad's cursive is beautiful. I'm embarassed by mine...

PC LOAD LETTER: I thought the content of the writing did that.

You are a poop head.

You are a poop head.

You are a poop head.

You are a poop head.

Hm...

I stopped using cursive right after grade 6 (1991). That's basically when my teacher's stopped caring. In fact, they preferred typed reports b/c it was so much easier for them to mark.

Since then I pretty much just print my notes (much clearer, and just as fast as my cursive), and everything else is typed.

Kar98: HappyLittleTree: Also, using math as an example has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever read on Fark. Ever.

How so? By your logic, why should anybody have to learn how add or multiply when there are computers everywhere? Man, they had me learn multiplication tables until I was freaking sick of them.

Oh geez...now I realize that the girl at the junkyard wasn't actually kidding the other day when she was utterly amazed that I was able to add 8.25% tax to my $10 purchase faster than she did on her calculator.

Or, come to think of it, the state safety inspector when he was mumbling that I had to come back later because he was all out of date stickers for my inspection sticker, since they mistakenly sent him twice the number of nines, but no sixes.

Even better, people that can't count back change when the power to the register goes out.

humanshrapnel
/Cos, you know, QWERTY ain't going anywhere folks.

Really? Are you so certain about that? You know QWERTY was invented in the mid to late 1800s as a way of preventing the typebars from jamming. When is the last time you saw someone using a manual typewriter? So QWERTY is obviously outdated and lived beyond its usefulness. There are better ways of laying out a keyboard (Dvorak is one). QWERTY will eventually go away and most likely a similar discussion will occur on FARK's successor.

I'm surprised no one has brought up the whole serif/sans serif arguement, let alone the cursive ones. Anyone remember the days of 0 and O screwing up computers? or l and 1?

Stupid noobs.

Society is doomed.

I know hell, damn, and crap...

Frehar: MorePeasPlease: Do they still teach Latin in grade school?
Just wonderin'.

But you'd sound so cool saying, "Yes, I read it in the original Latin."

But you really haven't lived, until you've read it in the original Klingon.

he just hasn't seen enough shoops in his time

MorePeasPlease: Do they still teach Latin in grade school?
Just wonderin'.

I wish they had for me...we had the option of Spanish or French in Jr. High, and German, Spanish, or French in High School. I didn't get any Latin until grad school, although it was offered as an undergrad.

Why can't they read it? Even if they weren't taught to write it, a good chunk of the lettering isn't that hard to pick out.

My brother wasn't taught to write it, but he can read it.

Maybe it's exposure to it from everyone else in my family, or he's smarter than I give him credit for

Speaking of hieroglyphics, since it was so much more difficult for me to read their freaking short-handed "cursive" form, I'd like it all cursed from existance.

My cursive is impossible to read, but I have bad handwriting in general. Possibly because I leave out the extra sections of letters to write faster. It is actually must faster for to print and/or use my modified cursive than to write regular cursive. It's easier to read print because each letter is formed separately, so it doesn't run altogether. Cursive is only useful for signatures and art.

Note to self: Do not post on fark when half-asleep.

ham-tomato: French Rage: Wow, it's like a follow-up to last week's 60 Minutes report on the Millenials, another chance for someone in the media to diss today's young adults.

Well, you do suck.


I know, but it's unfair to automatically assume the rest of my generation does.

Learning cursive is important. I hated writing it, but knew that it was an essential skill, like arithmetic. The teachers used to send notes home in cursive, knowing that the kids (second grade) couldn't read it. Glorious was the day when I could determine the good notes from the bad!

Also, as a dyslexic, it gave me another option for generating a letter form, should I get stuck on a particular letter. It certainly looked weird at times, but writing cursive does encourage one to think more carefully about what to write. Especially if one is penalized for misspellings or has to write in pen.

One of my great sadistic pleasures is to give my students my fountain pen and watch the confusion.

Oh, and speaking of Klingon, if you don't learn cursive, you degenerate into primitive society where Yangs and Khoms are locked in mortal combat.

E Plebnista!

Fizzy_Pop: Toshiro Mifune's Letter Opener: IN ALL FAIRNESS, PERHAPS THEY SHOULD START LEARNING HOW TO WRITE IN COMIC SANS STYLE

I had a chemistry professor that typed everything - the class syllabus, handouts, worksheets for the lab, online notes, even exams in comic sans font.

In my opinion, anything typed in comic sans is instantly labeled as non-professional. It annoyed me all semester.

Yes, but it gives the illusion that the thing you are reading is pleasant and easy to comprehend. Perhaps even fun.

It's all very non-threatening...

...until you get to the content of your exam.

Then it mocks you.

RCL
You still waste time teaching it???
Seriously?? Is it mandated in your school district?
Learning cursive truly was a waste of time even when my generation was in elementary school. Time better spent on actual education than learning an ancient skill.

/I'm 26

From the Sunshine State Standards:

Language Arts: 3
Communication

Penmanship: The student engages in the writing process and writes to communicate ideas and experiences. (LA.3.5.1)

The student will:
1. demonstrate beginning cursive writing skills. (LA.3.5.1.1)

Yes, it's a mandated part of third-grade curriculum. Also the kids love it. I hold the promise of learning cursive over their heads usually until January. It's the perfect motivational tool for even the laziest students.

/I'm not that much older than you. I still see its value.

Sline:
I do this too sometimes. I also sometimes write in IPA to amuse or write secret messages to myself. What the hell.

That's pretty damn hardcore. I use the futhark for the same thing, but that doesn't require me to remember obscure representations of phonemes.

The_Pole_Of_Justice:
Form based indicators age. Were books better when they were typeset by hand? Were typeset books a sign of declining standards, because people just weren't spending the time to copy them by hand? Were the hand written copies inferior to their carved-in-stone predecessors?

I genuinely believe that standards decline not because people want to get sloppy, but because busybodies are so eager to define them by useless, cosmetic properties that have outlived their usefulness.

Don't mistake the air of sophistication with sophistication itself. You're defending familiarity, not integrity.

This reminded me that a great deal of texts written by court poets in the 16th century were written in manuscript form and intentionally copied and distributed in manuscript form as a means of distinction. Just seeing the manuscript and having access to it became a mark of status.

On the other hand, there's some medieval hand (I can't remember the specific name for it as my paleography seminar was two and a half years ago and very much the shotgun approach, just that it was a civil hand for use in the law court, I believe) that assumed the minims (the downstroke lines in m or n, say) without writing them fully, as a form of shorthand. So the push towards speed over clarity has been there as well.

HappyLittleTree: Also, the fact that you are writing in a form dictated by a writing style makes it as uncreative as is humanly possible. The reason writing is creative is because you are continually manipulating words to further express yourself. By giving them a fixed style to learn, it works in the complete opposite way than what you are arguing. It's just like making kids memorize formulas and tables instead of them having a real understand of it. Learn about writing styles, create your own, but don't think forcing kids to write in predetermined style gives you creativity.

Wait, wait...are you talking about penmanship, writing for the conveyance of information, or writing as a creative endeavor? If it's the first, creativity doesn't come into it--it's a matter of clarity and being able to make yourself understood to the reader regardless of what hand you prefer.

If you're talking about writing as the conveyance of information, then I disagree as well. We are trained to look for certain things in certain locations--the thesis of an argument at a certain point. Sure, I can put my thesis at the end, but why would I make you read 20 pages to find out at the end what the hell I was really talking about? It makes a lot more sense to tell you at the beginning so you understand the point I'm trying to make and read accordingly.

If you're talking about writing as a creative endeavor, I would posit that while free-form writing can be useful, structure is as well. Look at poetry, for example. There is no inherent benefit to an unstructured over a structured form, and often there is more skill in being able to play with the established form as well as the content of your words. If anything, I would argue learning an established form provides you with an extra tool, and that just because you're writing a sonnet, for example, does not mean you are limited to the traditional content of the sonnet--and that you can use the turn at the end to interesting effect by playing against expectation.

The_Pole_Of_Justice:

THIS JUST ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT. There is nothing cursive can do that can't be done with other means that will age better and have more practical future applications. If you equate communication standards with cursive writing, you're not helping cursive, you're hindering communication standards. IT'S DYING. LET IT DIE.


I'm not sure I buy that volitile storage media age better than non-volitile ones. How many of us have had Windows bork and lost everything? If you give me that, and we're going into the non-volitile world, then as other people pointed out cursive does have benefits as being a faster means to get the information down on paper.

I'm not saying that typing isn't more useful on a day-to-day basis, but I'm not sure this portion of your argument is as strong as you think it is.

I think not learning cursive is silly.

The average Joe Sixpack out there only needs to know enough math to know that if a dozen eggs cost $1.00 and if some meat costs $3.50 they pay $4.50 in total, or if six cans of beer costs $12 that comes to $2 a can. Yet we teach them algebra, and they probably forget it. I need to know algebra so I can manipulate field equations.

There are plenty of uses for cursive writing. When I write things for MY reference, I use cursive. I have a tablet PC (HP tc4200), and I derive a lot of equations by writing on the screen. I also write in cursive between the steps, explaining why I am doing something. Typing would be the most inefficient way to do this.

So I think learn some cursive. If you eventually forget it since you don't use it, fine. You can forget it along with algebra, but schools shouldn't be catering to the absolute lowest common denominator; people who need the skill should not be disadvantaged.

kenny's mom: Aulus:....second grade, 1956......my middle school students....

Nice, thoughtful post, Aulus. I did some quick-and-dirty math (without a calculator, or even paper and pencil) and figured you are approaching your 60th birthday. In an age when half of new K-12 teachers leave the field within about seven years, bravo to you for hanging in there all these years!

On a related note: I am always interested to ask longtime K-12 teachers "what has changed?--the parents, the culture, the kids work ethic, society, blah blah........." I've been a college teacher long enough to see definite changes, but I'd enjoy the perspective of someone in your position. Can you enlighten us? (no need to use the words "snowflake" or "crotchfruit")

Could you do the same thing for me, except for college students? I'm just starting the doctoral portion of my graduate work and while I'm amazed at how the incoming freshman seem different than I was at 18, I'm wondering how much of that is me and how much is them.

altinos:

Is that the upper and lower case of a particular futhark font, or two different futharks?

I'm having to WRITE a 10 page report right now, and I TRIED it in cursive but, it was so bad I can't read it.
As a matter of fact my block is not THAT much better but it IS legible if you just "let it flow".

My Signature proves that I had an ambition to be a pilot,or even a dr it is that bad, hell it looks NOTHING like my name.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
(Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

My cursive is Ling'amon'!

Kar98: So you're just gonna stand there and drool because you can't read those?

So your point is what? That we should all learn how to write every letter in 100 different fonts so that we can read them in case anyone decides to use them for some inane reason?


Kar98: So is reading and writing. Whatcha gonna do if a letter looks different than the way you print it?

Um, and whatcha gonna do if a letter looks different than the way it does in cursive?
WTF are you trying to say? Most fonts are readable because the letters DO resemble what they look like in print enough so that they can be read, and if it isn't readable that way, it is a stupid font and no one should use it. If someone fails to convey a message because they chose to write in an obscure, illegible font that no one knows how to read, it is the writers fault for using it, not the reader's fault for not memorizing every style of lettering as a child.

That's right, if you write someone a letter using Sütterlin you should not expect them to be able to read it. If they can't, it is your damn fault for writing using obscure, illegible, useless fonts.


Kar98: We learned how to write with pens and learned it without dripping. You hold your hand right, and exert just the right amount of pressure, and the pen doesn't drip. Well, eventually and in theory. Then, in later grades, we were allowed to use ballpoint pens.

I see, and exactly how has learning to use a quill-type pen helped you?
Ballpoint pens are pretty much ubiquitous. If we had to learn every skill that our ancestors had to know before learning to use modern technology, we would waste our formative years learning useless things instead of learning what is used NOW so that we can build on it.


Kar98: Bottom line is, first you LEARN the basics, then you can become creative.

Well, the basics to me seems to be printed letters. Everyone should learn those.
Cursive is a style of writing that was meant to be used with quill pens to minimize ink blotting. It is not the basics. And since we don't use quill pens anymore, we don't need cursive anymore.


Kar98: How so? By your logic, why should anybody have to learn how add or multiply when there are computers everywhere? Man, they had me learn multiplication tables until I was freaking sick of them.

Still an inept example.
Inside-out knowledge of simple mathematical concepts is required to build upon in order to comprehend more complex concepts like algebraic arithmetic and calculus, and mathematics in general is a fundamental method of describing how everything in the world works.
Learning to write in cursive isn't required to understand any higher level concepts, it is an isolated skill that once had a use and does no longer. It isn't even fundamentally related to the skill of reading or writing, since it is perfectly possible to be highly proficient at both of those without knowing a whit of cursive. It is not, however, possible to know how to do calculus without knowing how to multiply.

So yeah, math is a lame analogy.

Kar98: The_Pole_Of_Justice: Who wants to point out the GIGANTIC, GAPING HOLE in Kar98's argument? Anyone?

What, you mean the freaking point you missed entirely? The one I was trying to make here? About you can't farking read it if you can't write it and vice versa?

Oh so that was your point. See, I thought he meant the point about how most of those fonts are perfectly legible because they resemble printed letters, and so thus don't illustrate that argument at all.

So it appears that you can read what you don't know how to write precisely. Although I suppose perhaps you were just contrasting the other fonts with your "Sütterlin", or whatever, showing how there are a few styles that are illegible unless you know the writing style. Okay, sure, I'll give you that point.

However, the more salient point is that people shouldn't be writing using those fonts in the first place. If you write something using a font that is illegible without having learned it first, and are subsequently misunderstood or fail to convey the information, it is your fault. You may as well have written it in a different language. If you write an article in a U.S. newspaper in French and nobody understands you, you don't get to blame everyone else for not having learned French. That's idiotic.

Graffitti FTW!

Since Palm Pilots went the way of the oxen cart, my handwriting makes no sense whatsoever.