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(CBS2Chicago.com)   Old and [not] busted: Blaming the oil corporations for the high cost of gas. New hotness: Discovering your state and local governments are soaking you for 20% of that cost   (cbs2chicago.com) divider line 250
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11300 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 May 2008 at 4:04 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-05-22 05:54:37 PM
Ikam: liberalish: Ouch. Good thing I take the train (yeah, yeah, I get that it adds to everything else).

Me too. That $75 a month 'el' pass is starting to look sweeter and sweeter isn't it?


I just use the chicago card. $20 = $22 (10% bonus) and the fares are $1.75 instead of $2

12.5 rides for the price of 10. I fig i use 40 or so rides a month, cost about $66-70.

/just me having fun with math, move on
 
2008-05-22 05:57:58 PM
Forget, the Government, Big ols and the A-rabs...

These are the speculators who are driving the price up...

img60.imageshack.us

Day traders. Make tons of money shuffling paper around, contributing nothing.

Do the world a favor. If you personally know any of these scum, please KICK 'EM IN THE BALLS. HARD.
 
2008-05-22 05:59:38 PM
That is not a new hotness. Where the fark have you been? Also, lets start another template, this template is old and busted.
 
2008-05-22 06:03:13 PM
Sakhalin Island -- Shell vs. Moscow
Bolivian nationalization
Venezualan nationalisation


The governments aren't oblivious. In many cases, they've taken advantage of the situation to renegotiate the deals -- and the companies simply have to pray that the deals are altered no further. Of course, in some countries they've been more assertive over such things for many years -- Saudi Arabia, for instance.



After all, there's not much a foreign company can do about it -- lodge protests and attempt to sue, but that's not likely to be very effective in the producer's own legal system. Assets *might* be frozen as compensation, but... in the meantime, other companies are accepting the renegotiations and gaining market share. e.g. Exxon-Mobil might be the only one fighting PDVSA.

 
2008-05-22 06:07:09 PM
So if we are determined to continue to index our transportation needs to a commodity that can only be obtained by dealing with nations who own the commodity, and hate our f*cking guts, it's the duty of the American companies to purchase and distribute this commodity to get ratf*uck rich off of their fellow citizens?

Your house of cards economy.

I needn't show it to you.
 
2008-05-22 06:08:32 PM
Day_Old_Dutchie:

Day traders. Make tons of money shuffling paper around, contributing nothing.

Do the world a favor. If you personally know any of these scum, please KICK 'EM IN THE BALLS. HARD.


if all these people are doing is driving prices higher, why not open a futures account and buy in front of them? after all, as you state the facts, they only drive prices higher, so you are guaranteed to make money if you buy in front of them!
 
2008-05-22 06:09:44 PM
bunner: JDerek: You beat me to this. So, Remove all Republicans, by your logic, if I give my kid an allowance, and he blows it all on drugs and alcohol, rather than punish him, I should double his allowance?

No, you should up your tax contribution in order to fund committees that will investigate the effects of alcohol sales to minors and fight the war on drugs.

This committee will meet in Oahu.

At the Hilton.


Done. But only if they meet about the war on drugs and come to the realization that it's a complete and utter waste of taxpayers' money.
 
2008-05-22 06:10:10 PM
Put that in your Hummer and smoke it.
 
2008-05-22 06:10:10 PM
Day_Old_Dutchie: Day traders. Make tons of money shuffling paper around, contributing nothing.

And doing massive amounts of blow.

/used to work at a coffee shop across the street from the Merc
 
2008-05-22 06:10:13 PM
JDerek: You beat me to this. So, Remove all Republicans, by your logic, if I give my kid an allowance, and he blows it all on drugs and alcohol, rather than punish him, I should double his allowance?

If he's starving and needs a home, you should focus on those problems first and not waste time yelling and screaming about you would rather *he* spend *his* money.
 
2008-05-22 06:11:23 PM
bunner: You don't understand how things work.

The free market always adjusts.

Redistribution of wealth is communism.

Greed is good.

The invisible hand of the market.

Companies need a profit motive.

High taxation (on anybody but working shmoes) is bad so these taxes are justifiable.

/If you print these on a card and get some kneepads, you can probably blow most of corporate America and the bottomless bureaucaracy in one day.



Summon:
home.new.rr.com
 
2008-05-22 06:14:20 PM
Lawnchair: Speaking of fuel taxes, I predict that before plug-in vehicles make up even 1% of the US fleet, states and the Feds will be forced to find a way to charge the drivers for road use in lieu of fuel taxes. The smug end-run around taxation will end, pronto.

Oregon been thinking about it for years now.
(new window)
 
2008-05-22 06:14:39 PM
Ikam:

/used to work at a coffee shop across the street from the Merc

yea, lots of crude and rbob traded at the cme. thanks for playing.

/don't give up your coffee shop job.
 
2008-05-22 06:16:24 PM
Remove all Republicans: JDerek: You beat me to this. So, Remove all Republicans, by your logic, if I give my kid an allowance, and he blows it all on drugs and alcohol, rather than punish him, I should double his allowance?

If he's starving and needs a home, you should focus on those problems first and not waste time yelling and screaming about you would rather *he* spend *his* money.


That's not the point. If he's living in my house, and I'm giving him an allowance for doing nothing, I can tell him how to spend his money. It's the same thing we're dealing with now. I think taxpayers certainly have a right to be upset if their government is grossly misappropriating funds, rather than just saying, "Well you farked up what we already gave you, but here's some more."
 
2008-05-22 06:19:02 PM
pbjosh: SO: any argument about how much a refiner is making should, to be even close to accurate, needs to include the actions of the Futures Market.

And any solution should result in kicking the people in the Futures Market squarely in the gonads.
 
2008-05-22 06:19:40 PM
JDerek: So, Remove all Republicans, by your logic, if I give my kid an allowance, and he blows it all on drugs and alcohol, rather than punish him, I should double his allowance?

And that child could become president some day...
 
2008-05-22 06:20:34 PM
Doesn't the fact that our dollar is tanking play in to the rising price of oil/gas as well? It takes more dollars to buy it when the printing presses keep running.
 
2008-05-22 06:29:19 PM
OMGH4X:

Doesn't the fact that our dollar is tanking play in to the rising price of oil/gas as well? It takes more dollars to buy it when the printing presses keep running.

bingo! we have a winner!

look at the price of crude priced in dollars and then look at a chart of the price of crude in euros and then yen. the price of crude denominated in dollars has risen much higher then the price of crude in euros.

so, if you think about it, the douchebags in congress that were grandstanding yesterday in front of the cameras whining at the oil company execs are responsible for taking more out of your pocket for each gallon of gas than are the oil company execs.

just think, if our elected douchebags would quit spending our money in an irresponsible manner and then allow the 92% of federal lands that is restricted for oil and gas development to be evaluated for potential production and possibly produced not only would your energy bill go down, but you food bill would decline because we wouldn't have to be wasting so much corn and soybeans on ethanol production.

oh, and here is one, take the royalties from the added production from federal lands and instead of offer it to the douchebags in congress to waste on general porkbarrel projects, dedicate it to developing alternatives such as cellulose ethanol. wow! that's almost a start on an energy policy!
 
2008-05-22 06:29:49 PM

OMGH4X --
Only partly; if the weakness of the dollar were the dominant factor, you would expect energy costs to be more in synch with 'core' inflation instead of growing faster.


There's more demand, it's getting harder to find more reserves, what's left is often more expensive to exploit, and the suppliers are more willing to take advantage of their power. i.e. Bolivia and Venezuela breaking previous deals that were much more favorable to companies from imperialist colonialist running-dogs.

 
2008-05-22 06:30:31 PM
rhino33: i don't know an exact percentage increase, as i'm sure it changes based on contracts, different refineries etc., but refineries generally buy the oil from the oil companies at the market prices, so yes, their costs have gone up.

Sounds good on paper, until somebody points out that the really big refiners, like Exxon, produce their own oil. Ergo, they buy it from themselves -- yes, there's actually a purchase involved, as absurd as that sounds.
 
2008-05-22 06:32:18 PM
nerfball: Day_Old_Dutchie:

Day traders. Make tons of money shuffling paper around, contributing nothing.

Do the world a favor. If you personally know any of these scum, please KICK 'EM IN THE BALLS. HARD.

if all these people are doing is driving prices higher, why not open a futures account and buy in front of them? after all, as you state the facts, they only drive prices higher, so you are guaranteed to make money if you buy in front of them!



Well said.

About to jump in some long options calls on EXXON myself soon.
 
2008-05-22 06:33:56 PM
Here's what we need.

Achieving Energy Victory
and
The webpage promoting the idea

Basically, we pass a law saying that all new cars must be Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV); able to run on gasoline or alcohols. The FFV cars cost $100 more than a regular car. And converting a current car can apparently be done for $400 or so. Then once there's enough of those cars then there'll be demand for alternate fuels. The author suggests methanol since it's cheap and can be made cheaply from anything with carbon in it...lawn scraps, farm residues, garbage, (and I think even sewage).

The unltimate goal is to break the monoply of oil based fuels, and therefore those OPEC bastards; who like take our gas money and fund terrorists. It would be nice to eventually tell those goat farkers in the middle east to go drink thier oil.
 
2008-05-22 06:35:33 PM
wmoonfox:

Sounds good on paper, until somebody points out that the really big refiners, like Exxon, produce their own oil. Ergo, they buy it from themselves -- yes, there's actually a purchase involved, as absurd as that sounds.


fyi -
in terms of reserves, exxon is the 14th largest oil company in the world. in 2007, exxon accounted for 3% of the world's oil production. the company refined 2 million barrels of oil a day and purchased 90% of then from other producers.
 
2008-05-22 06:36:40 PM
I would also like to board the 'subby is an ignorant douche' train.
 
2008-05-22 06:39:55 PM
Tax is theft, and so is private property.
 
2008-05-22 06:48:29 PM
And A Bit Else: Like, it's got bling and saves on gas fool! These high gas prices are crimping my style.

Forget the tinfoil, what's up with his chain?
 
2008-05-22 06:49:11 PM
nerfball: wmoonfox:

Sounds good on paper, until somebody points out that the really big refiners, like Exxon, produce their own oil. Ergo, they buy it from themselves -- yes, there's actually a purchase involved, as absurd as that sounds.


fyi -
in terms of reserves, exxon is the 14th largest oil company in the world. in 2007, exxon accounted for 3% of the world's oil production. the company refined 2 million barrels of oil a day and purchased 90% of then from other producers.


I don't have information on their relative standing in the world market, but I do know that their production of crude alone last year was ~2.5 million barrels per day. They did not purchase 90% of that number from other suppliers; it is the sum total of their global production.
 
2008-05-22 06:51:56 PM
IXI Jim IXI: And any solution should result in kicking the people in the Futures Market squarely in the gonads.

Not a bad idea. But, no.

We should be blaming the should be kicking in the gonads brokers instead of blaming the refiners. Or, well, we should be blaming a free market. Of course, we should also blame those who make the free market more volatile then it needs to be.

So, scare mongers in the press, political idiots we elected, or in general, ourselves for making such a big deal of it.

If we didn't, the perceived value of oil would not be so much, and it would drop back down to a value closer to cost. Right now the value of the futures market has everything to do with guessing at a value for the oil. And worrying about BS like Peak Oil.

Same thing happens with wheat, coffee and soybeans. If we hear that Columbia has a really bad year in coffee production, then the price can go up on the guess that there will be less in 6 months. The guess at the demand means an increase of the price companies like Starbucks is willing to pay.

BUT: There might be more coffee in other places, so Starbucks may buy from others. Caught in the middle are the brokers who bought at a certain price, and are trying to sell to make a profit.

They might make a profit, they might fall flat on their face. It is guess work.

If we, in general the populous, wander around talking like Peak Soybean is here, and reduced production is happening, plus global beaning is happening, then some dumb idiot it going to pay just a little more then the next to get his soybeans, just on the hopes that your Tofu manufacturer is going to be willing to pay just a bit more when the supply runs down, and the demand goes up.

Futures market pricing is guess work, faith, and percieved value. Not real value, not cost, not direct supply/demand.

BUT: it happens to often be more stable in the long run then direct supply demand because people are buying on guess work from as far out at 18 months, flattening the curve of day to day supply demand that would potentially just gas up by as much as several dollars one day, then down several dollars the next.

And that is just scratching the surface! :)
 
2008-05-22 06:56:04 PM
chi_tino: SSP: So I can blame oil companies for soaking me for 80 percent of the high cost? It's not a mystery Subby, how do you think roads and bridges get built or repaired?

So after reading the article, can you explain to us how, when gas prices double, there are twice as many roads and bridges being built? The beef is a tax system in Illinois/Chicago that bases gas taxes on a PERCENTAGE, whereas most other states base their taxes on a PER GALLON basis.

RTFA, mmkay?



Thank you,
Finally someone on fark had a brain cell or two working.

The whole problem here is the percentage based model. This is why the oil companies are getting rich.

There is a 55 cent price differential between NE and MO right now, on gas that is purchased from the same source.

If you must tax a comodity, make it a flat tax. The roads and bridges do not cost more just because the demand goes up.
 
2008-05-22 06:56:49 PM
Thorak: Ditto: So where is that extra $.60/gallon going? I've paid for at least a new bus or two over the last few years.

You do know there's a war on, right?

Hell, it's not even close to keeping up at the rate it's at. Expect taxes to rise sharply in the next decade.


That might explain the Feds cut, but I think that would be documented somewhere. Did the Fed cut back on what they provided the State and now the State is having to use it's extra gas revenue to cover the difference?
 
2008-05-22 06:57:48 PM
pbjosh: Of course, we should also blame those who make the free market more volatile then it needs to be.

I wish someone would hunt down and beat that bastard months ago who put oil over $100 just to prove to his kids he could do it. If anything, it'd be a symbolic victory.

And, with hockey season over for my Bruins, I could use the violence ;)
 
2008-05-22 06:57:57 PM
wombatsrus: Perhaps only for purchases from oil companies that are behaving themselves and do not have excessive profits.

Oh. My. God. America, land of the touchy-feely nimrods, who through the magic of voting are able to erase the concept of "freedom."
 
2008-05-22 06:59:27 PM
Hahaha, only 20%? You guys have it easy.
 
2008-05-22 07:05:15 PM
Something occurred to me, recently. I'm inclined to believe, at some point, Americans will be unable to afford the gas for their SUVs and enormous trucks. Then, they'll finally start buying smaller and/or alternative energy vehicles. With any luck, it will finally eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.

I'm beginning to believe that, if and when this happens, conservatives will start praising Bush as one of the best and most environmentally conscious presidents, and the one who did the most for global warming. Why? Because increasing the price of gas to make alternatives more cost-effective and weaning us off of oil was his plan, all along.

Anyone care to place any bets?
 
2008-05-22 07:10:22 PM
Dadoo: I'm beginning to believe that, if and when this happens, conservatives will start praising Bush as one of the best and most environmentally conscious presidents, and the one who did the most for global warming. Why? Because increasing the price of gas to make alternatives more cost-effective and weaning us off of oil was his plan, all along.

Anyone care to place any bets?


Worked for Reagan.
 
2008-05-22 07:11:56 PM
bunner: Dadoo: I'm beginning to believe that, if and when this happens, conservatives will start praising Bush as one of the best and most environmentally conscious presidents, and the one who did the most for global warming. Why? Because increasing the price of gas to make alternatives more cost-effective and weaning us off of oil was his plan, all along.

Anyone care to place any bets?

Worked for Reagan.


And apparently Gore too,did you read his book? He WANTS gas to be this expensive.
 
2008-05-22 07:13:51 PM
Dadoo: With any luck, it will finally eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.

And what happens when American no longer consumes heavily-taxed gas? The government cries "budget deficit" and raises taxes elsewhere to make up the difference.

To all those who advocate higher gas taxes, realize the government is going to find an alternative means of shaking you down once the gas tax dries up.

Some states (Oregon?) are already experimenting with alternatives: GPS tracking in cars, taxing you by the mile.

Sounds good, until you realize the guy in the Prius gets taxed the same amount as the guy in the SUV. Think the heavier vehicle that chews up the road faster should pay more? The government doesn't care: They just want money. How much money? The answer, always, is "more."
 
2008-05-22 07:18:02 PM
Triaxis: And apparently Gore too,did you read his book? He WANTS gas to be this expensive.

yeah.. *sigh* I want gas to be next to useless.

As far as I'm concerned, the primary roadblock to good, old American know-how and brilliant engineering being put to the market is a whole lot of pricks who like things just the way they are, so long as it buys them a new Maybach, a 60' Hatteras and a 27 room villa.

Why don't we invite these pricks to go set up shop someplace else, index their products to whatever shiatty currency is working in the nation that will kiss their ass, and just start doing things locally, again? Seems to have worked for the Vice President, who moved his whole combine to Dubai. What a coont.
 
2008-05-22 07:19:14 PM
Il Douchey: To EARN their profit, oil companies must license, find, extract, refine, transport and sell the oil. And, they can't force anybody to buy it. To get their oil revenue, gov't does nothing but issue a tax -and nobody can refuse to pay it.

THIS!
 
2008-05-22 07:20:50 PM
Exxon pays a higher dollar amount in federal taxes than their annual US revenue, and for each gallon of gasoline you buy you pay more in taxes than Exxon makes in profit.

Only very dumb people complain about oil company profits. Their profits are quite small, actually.
 
2008-05-22 07:22:41 PM
smitty1276: Exxon pays a higher dollar amount in federal taxes than their annual US revenue, and for each gallon of gasoline you buy you pay more in taxes than Exxon makes in profit.

Only very dumb people complain about oil company profits. Their profits are quite small, actually.


Got numbers?

I'd truly like to see those.
 
2008-05-22 07:23:24 PM
Sgian Dubh: Discovering? If you're too ignorant to have known that since you first started driving, you don't need to be driving.

I think what many people might be startled to discover is NOT that there is a gas tax, but, rather, how much more the government makes on gas than the oil companies who actually produce it.
 
2008-05-22 07:25:30 PM
I bet the oil companies would love to be making 20% on a gallon of gas.

Obama weighs in as 'present' to collect the 20% on this issue.
 
2008-05-22 07:26:23 PM
bunner: smitty1276: Exxon pays a higher dollar amount in federal taxes than their annual US revenue, and for each gallon of gasoline you buy you pay more in taxes than Exxon makes in profit.

Only very dumb people complain about oil company profits. Their profits are quite small, actually.

Got numbers?

I'd truly like to see those.


They're out there. You can probably find them quicker than I can find time to find them. :-)

Here's a good starting point, though.
 
2008-05-22 07:31:08 PM
since when is this a new hotness?
and its higher than 20% for most of CA
 
2008-05-22 07:33:55 PM
I appreciate the article but from what I could gather, it's just a breakdown on who is sucking what particular tap on the gravy train and big oil ain't exactly going hungry.

Seems like the only people getting screwed are, as usual, local businesses who dispense it and thusly, local economies.
 
2008-05-22 07:34:42 PM
smitty1276: Only very dumb people complain about oil company profits. Their profits are quite small, actually.

I know, it's only the the most profitable quarter ever (new window), hell even the "most profitable year on record for any company in U.S. history" (new window). It's a good thing profits are on the small side.

JDerek: I think taxpayers certainly have a right to be upset if their government is grossly misappropriating funds, rather than just saying, "Well you farked up what we already gave you, but here's some more."

That assumes that there is misappropriation and corruption in government. I'd say government is probably better than the private sector. Have you met government workers? They aren't paid squat and it's clear that they aren't stealing the money. Besides, the government can always get more and with government doing so many important functions all the time, it's crucial that we keep it working first and foremost and then later see if we can improve it.
 
2008-05-22 07:37:51 PM
Remove all Republicans: Have you met government workers? They aren't paid squat and it's clear that they aren't stealing the money because their bosses funnel huge amounts of it back to corporations, first. Besides, the government can always get more and with government doing so many important functions all the time, it's crucial that we keep it working demand accountability or let it starve, first and foremost and then later see if we can improve it.
 
2008-05-22 07:38:13 PM
evil rhinobird: Basically, we pass a law saying that all new cars must be Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV); able to run on gasoline or alcohols. The FFV cars cost $100 more than a regular car. And converting a current car can apparently be done for $400 or so. Then once there's enough of those cars then there'll be demand for alternate fuels. The author suggests methanol since it's cheap and can be made cheaply from anything with carbon in it...lawn scraps, farm residues, garbage, (and I think even sewage).

Not far enough. Pass a law saying all new cars must be zero-emission hybrids and we'll eliminate our need for gas completely. Before people start biatching about the prices, car companies make plenty of money so just limit the prices they can sell them for and it'll work. Once everything works on biofuels, the world will be a much better place to live.
 
2008-05-22 07:41:16 PM
bunner: it's crucial that we keep it working demand accountability

Keep on sitting on the side "demanding accountability." The rest of us are just trying to keep the thing running. More accountability is just an improvement and will come over time.

Look what happened during Katrina. That's what happens when the government isn't around. People starve to death and die without government help. Focus on the problem at hand, getting things done, rather than the later problem of potential lapses in judgment that may have been done.
 
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