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(Guardian)   Sixty-eight per cent of Italians want gypsies expelled. You know who else hated gypsies?   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 340
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7019 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 May 2008 at 11:21 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-05-17 01:08:43 PM  
MeanJean: Oh yes, just as this is the quintessential example of African-American culture.

African-American? You mean like someone from Egypt or white South Africans?

EPIC EPIC FAIL.
 
2008-05-17 01:09:12 PM  
When I studied in Firenze, I foolishly fed a gypsy woman one night by il Duomo.

After that she would keep an eye out for me and follow me around.

They are a real pain. Keep a hand on your wallet when they're around.
 
2008-05-17 01:09:21 PM  
devioustrevor: From what I understand of the EU the fact that both Italy and Romania are members of the EU means that Romanians living in Italy can't be considered illegal.

20 years ago, that's what we were told, in order to bump up ratings for the idea of the Union, and hopefully this will be realized, but we're still far from it:

latest figures, from 2006, indicate that there were nearly 4 million foreign residents in Italy, according to ISTAT, Italy's state statistical institute. And press reports say more and more illegal immigrants have arrived in Italy since the European Union expanded in 2007 to include Bulgaria and Romania.

The plan's main target is Romania. It's not part of the Schengen scheme


Schengen Agreement. Lots of rules and regulations.
 
2008-05-17 01:09:29 PM  
Mouser



Obviously the solution is to give the Gypsies their own homeland so that they don't have to wander around Europe facing persecution from all sides. Maybe we can find some uninhabited spot in Central Asia to move them all to?


Nope. They don't want to. If they had their own homeland, who would they steal from? You have to understand, these are not people who are forced to steal because they have no other opportunities. Stealing is their culture the way eating cheese if part of french culture. It is how they define themselves and who they are.

 
2008-05-17 01:10:19 PM  
Obdicut: bikkurikun: hate for gypsies blacks hasn't got much to do with ethnicity, it has to do with the fact that many of the motherfarkers are thieves.

Do you agree with that statement as well


Yes, because that is simply how it works. Mind you I am not saying that I hate gypsies or blacks, but this is sadly how it is, and it is interesting point of discussion. I don't think there are many people who hate blacks just because they are black, but there are a lot people who distrust black people because of the high-criminality rates in the black community. Is that bad or understandable?

I don't hate gypsies, but I sure as hell distrust them. Many gypsies steal and are untrustworthy, you can try to be politically correct about it, but it is a plain and simple fact for anyone who has had encounters with them, like you can read in many of the anecdotes above. Just like it is fact that in the U.S. there are relatively a lot problems with criminality and drugs in black communities, as in Western Europe with second-generation Arabic and North-African immigrants.

As a result, if people encounter someone from those communities/cultures/whatever, they are initially distrustful, it is up to the other to prove that they are o.k. That is sad on many levels, but also logical and the harsh reality.

Now, if you hate blacks/gypsies/moroccans/ just because what they are, you are going to far, like in the article, but in all of these cases, seeing the problems with and in these groups, I would say a little prejudice is justified and logical and has not much to do with racism. Again sad for the "good ones" that they have to prove themselves, but that's life.

To give an example, while living in Amsterdam I have been robbed by Moroccan youth gangs twice. If encounter a group of Moroccan youths at night now,my hand goes to the pocket where I keep my knife just to be sure. I distrust them and I am not giving them the benefit of the doubt.Is that prejudice or simply a logical reaction stemming from the knowledge that there are a lot Moroccan youth gangs roaming the streets?

But at the same time I am not a racist, if they prove themselves to be o.k., I am cool with it.

Another example, my father owns a company, where frequently he would have trouble with workers of certain group stealing. He now thinks twice before hiring people from that group, and applicants from that group have to be really convincing in order to get a job. Again, is that racism, prejudice, or a logical reaction to past experiences? To me it is no more than logical, but also sad as you create a vicious circle where people become disillusioned because they can't get jobs and head into drugs and crime.

Again, it is sad that they have to prove themselves because of bad actions by others, but don't blame me for being prejudiced. That blame lies with all people who by their action cause others to prejudiced against their racial, (sub)cultural, or geographical group, whether it is black crackheads, stealing gypsies, white trash meth-addicts, stupid racist rednecks or moroccan thugs.

Sometimes prejudice is based on false information,envy, hate-mongering and propaganda (jews in WWII, gays), but sometimes prejudice is based on real problems in certain communities, and there the answer lies not in pigheadedly staying politically correct and pointing fingers at the prejudiced, but rather in trying to take care of the problems that cause the prejudice to arise in the first place: criminal behaviour in certain groups.
 
2008-05-17 01:10:31 PM  
the voices in your head: I'm going to cremate a million Jews and one clown.

Amateur. Cremate a million Jews and use the ashes and a bit of glue to make a clown statue.

/you can ALWAYS bump it up a notch
//or was that down?
 
2008-05-17 01:12:15 PM  
fat4eyes: It's nice to see that people are keeping up thousand-year-old prejudices.

Has the behavior of the group that is the target of the prejudice changed? "Prejudice" isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it is valid.
 
2008-05-17 01:12:22 PM  
Wow. This thread is absolutely full of assholes.

Marginalization and poor economic opportunities create a criminal class. In the US, it is often hispanic and black communities which are in these circumstances, and people feel (and this often ends up being true) they have to commit crimes to survive. Does this mean that black people and hispanic people are more apt to commit crimes, so it's okay typecast all black or hispanic people as criminals? No. It means that poor, ostracized people are more likely to commit crimes.

The Roma are a historically oppressed community with little to no job opportunities in modern markets. Of course children are brought up thinking there is no other way for them to get by, because there is no other way for them to get by. Is it fair to be careful around them? Yes, as it's a good idea not to wander through an inner city neighborhood at night by yourself. Does that make it fair to stereotype an entire race of people? Hell no. The amount of ignorance in this thread is depressing.
 
2008-05-17 01:15:06 PM  
They don't hate gypsies for the usual reasons like race, skin colour, creed, ethnic background, whatever. They hate them because of what they do. This prejudice is not a racial one, it's not just based on stereotypes or propaganda; but on personal experience. Gypsies moving into town are generally a disturbance. They take over an area, and leave it in the same condition you see in the photo from the article. They are beggers. A lot of them are criminals. A lot of them are scumbags. They will steal, pickpocket or generally exploit you. Not all of them I imagine, but a hell of a lot.

I'm not a racist. I don't care where a person is from, what they look like, or what they believe in. I try not to hold prejudiced opinions of any particular group. But I have never come across a member of the travelling community (new PC rules mean we're not allowed to say gypsies anymore) that did not in some way fit in with the stereotype. Eveyday at least 4 gypsies beg me for money (I'm a student, they're probably richer than I am). I have been on their sites, and they're a mess. When I was is Rome some gypsies tried to rob me. I managed to run away.

I went to school with some travellers (the Irish kind, not the Roma ones), and those that actually attended showed up maybe a total of half a dozen times in the whole year. Not to mention only the male children were sent to school. Some of them applied for a grant from the school to buy uniforms because apparently they couldn't afford them. When their cheque (check) came through, they left and went to another school pulling the same scam. They did this for nearly every school in the county, and never actually attended, much less actually used the government's money to buy a uniform.

On top of that, some gypsies used to squat in the house next to mine. They removed whatever furniture was in the house and burned it out the back. One of the neighbours had to call the council to have them removed. When the house found a legitimate new owner, the cost of renovating what had been a perfect, if abandoned building was enormous.

My other next door neighbours are a nice, quiet, respectable Romanian family. I was talking to them and even they hate the Roma people. Come to think of it, I have never seen a decent, upstanding member of their society. Does it make me a racist when every single experience I (or anyone I know) has ever had with these people has been a negative one? And I've had a fair share. You can hardly blame the Italinans for feeling this way.
 
2008-05-17 01:15:12 PM  
Lest anyone think I'm a baby-stealing pickpocket, my line came to America 300+ years ago and has since been "homogenized." Plus, being a parent myself, I have to question the sanity of anyone who would steal a kid. They're a pain in the ass.

Oh, and I thought the original homeland was in India, not Romania.
 
2008-05-17 01:15:35 PM  
tallasse


Bullshiat. Stealing is their culture. There are Roma in lots and lots of cultures, with widely differing economic opportunities. In each one, they steal for a living. It is their culture, their identity.

 
2008-05-17 01:15:35 PM  
On a more serious note - Gypsy/Romani culture is parasitic. I can hate the culture without hating individuals of the ethnic group who have disowned it.

Now, if you show me how to tell them apart from the average Gypsy with ease, I'll let the prejudice go. In the mean time, it's a generalization that's useful and the few innocents at a disadvantage are regrettable collateral damage.

I apply the same kind of thinking to youth who dress like inner city 'gangstas'. Though around here, you can at least limit that to their clothing and not the race/ethnicity.
 
2008-05-17 01:16:20 PM  
tallasse
Wow. This thread is absolutely full of assholes.

Marginalization and poor economic opportunities create a criminal class. In the US, it is often hispanic and black communities which are in these circumstances, and people feel (and this often ends up being true) they have to commit crimes to survive. Does this mean that black people and hispanic people are more apt to commit crimes, so it's okay typecast all black or hispanic people as criminals? No. It means that poor, ostracized people are more likely to commit crimes.

The Roma are a historically oppressed community with little to no job opportunities in modern markets. Of course children are brought up thinking there is no other way for them to get by, because there is no other way for them to get by. Is it fair to be careful around them? Yes, as it's a good idea not to wander through an inner city neighborhood at night by yourself. Does that make it fair to stereotype an entire race of people? Hell no. The amount of ignorance in this thread is depressing.


Stop being so reasonable and intelligent. This is Fark, for crying out loud.
 
2008-05-17 01:16:22 PM  
 
2008-05-17 01:18:31 PM  
sweetmelissa31: Do you hate me because I'm Jewish? That's it, isn't it? G-d you people make me sick.

I'm Jewish. Which makes me more ashamed of you.
 
2008-05-17 01:21:06 PM  
Unsung_Hero
On a more serious note - Gypsy/Romani culture is parasitic. I can hate the culture without hating individuals of the ethnic group who have disowned it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22jewish+culture%22+parasitic&hl=en&safe=off&sta rt=0&sa=N

You were saying?
 
2008-05-17 01:22:19 PM  
Obdicut:
I'm Jewish. Which makes me more ashamed of you.


Then you must know that minorities can't be racist.
 
2008-05-17 01:22:24 PM  
fat4eyes: It's nice to see that people are keeping up thousand-year-old prejudices

I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of naive people who think that one day all the different creeds, cultures, and races of the world will one day sit around, hold hands, and sing "kumbaya" together.

It aint gonna happen. It just aint. The sooner people start to realize this, the sooner we can work towards reasonable compromises and find a way to tolerate each other.
 
2008-05-17 01:23:00 PM  
bikkurikun: while living in Amsterdam I have been robbed by Moroccan youth gangs twice. If encounter a group of Moroccan youths at night now,my hand goes to the pocket where I keep my knife just to be sure.

5 times, 5 years in Brussels (see above). I don't carry a knife but I will go out of my way to avoid them like the plague. Carrying a knife here might get you in trouble more than those youth will ever get into, especially since there's always at least four of them.

tallasse: Wow. This thread is absolutely full of assholes. Marginalization and poor economic opportunities create a criminal class.

We've heard that one, it's getting old, see above; they get all the opportunities they want, and more. Some cultures just grew up as pirates and often learned it on the streets. Face it.
 
2008-05-17 01:23:37 PM  
bikkurikun: That blame lies with all people who by their action cause others to prejudiced against their racial, (sub)cultural, or geographical group, whether it is black crackheads, stealing gypsies, white trash meth-addicts, stupid racist rednecks or moroccan thugs.

So you assume any white person is a meth addict until they prove otherwise, right?
 
2008-05-17 01:25:16 PM  
sweetmelissa31: Then you must know that minorities can't be racist.

I don't know if you're trying to be funny, or ironic, or disassociate yourself from your previous statement.

But when you're in a hole, stop digging.

The exact same arguments here used against the gypsies were used against the Jews, for thousands of years. That people cannot see that it's the exact same thing happening again is beyond sad.
 
2008-05-17 01:25:42 PM  
Hey Bikkurikun, if your dad got robbed by some white people he employed do you think he would he stop hiring white people?
 
2008-05-17 01:27:17 PM  
I was pick-pocketed in Rome. Not sure if it was a gypsy or just some glue-sniffing kid. Whoever it was, I still want to stomp his guts out, but I definitely don't want to murder a race of people.

Regardless, I did see one gypsy girl begging on the street, about 9 or 10 maybe. Later I saw her mother applying something to her face; I can only assume to make her look more pathetic. My eyes met with the girl while her mother was doing this and I could tell that she was embarrassed. I felt very sorry for her in that instance. It's a messed up world out there, let me tell you.

Also, I'll agree that Europeans are a whole lot more racist than Americans. In Germany, they look down on the Turks who work there, even though they speak German and seemed quite good at their jobs. They always seemed more polite than the Germans.
 
2008-05-17 01:27:46 PM  
Obdicut: bikkurikun: That blame lies with all people who by their action cause others to prejudiced against their racial, (sub)cultural, or geographical group, whether it is black crackheads, stealing gypsies, white trash meth-addicts, stupid racist rednecks or moroccan thugs.

So you assume any white person is a meth addict until they prove otherwise, right?


If they have a mullet and bad teeth, yes I do.
 
2008-05-17 01:27:52 PM  
tallasse: Wow. This thread is absolutely full of assholes.

Marginalization and poor economic opportunities create a criminal class. In the US, it is often hispanic and black communities which are in these circumstances, and people feel (and this often ends up being true) they have to commit crimes to survive. Does this mean that black people and hispanic people are more apt to commit crimes, so it's okay typecast all black or hispanic people as criminals? No. It means that poor, ostracized people are more likely to commit crimes.

The Roma are a historically oppressed community with little to no job opportunities in modern markets. Of course children are brought up thinking there is no other way for them to get by, because there is no other way for them to get by. Is it fair to be careful around them? Yes, as it's a good idea not to wander through an inner city neighborhood at night by yourself. Does that make it fair to stereotype an entire race of people? Hell no. The amount of ignorance in this thread is depressing.


Nice sermon...so what are you doing about it?
 
2008-05-17 01:27:55 PM  
obdicut

Then lets give the Roma their own homeland. They wouldn't take it, because there would be nobody to steal from. That is why you don't see them asking for a homeland. Although i suppose they might take it, ask for billions in aid, and then when the check clears move back to europe to rob people some more. The Roma advocate stealing. it is what they teach their children to do.
 
2008-05-17 01:28:28 PM  
Nimue: Hey Bikkurikun, if your dad got robbed by some white people he employed do you think he would he stop hiring white people?

Look up the statistics for who's in prison in Europe.
 
2008-05-17 01:29:30 PM  
I think it's telling that there has been not one positive anecdote in this thread regarding the Roma people.
 
2008-05-17 01:29:33 PM  
jst3p: fat4eyes: It's nice to see that people are keeping up thousand-year-old prejudices.

Has the behavior of the group that is the target of the prejudice changed? "Prejudice" isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it is valid.


Tell that to the people who are wrongly included in the group because of whatever criterion without actually exhibiting the bad behavior associated with the group. Prejudice always seems acceptable as long as you're not wrongly targeted by it.
 
2008-05-17 01:29:37 PM  
tallasse: In the US, it is often hispanic and black communities which are in these circumstances, and people feel (and this often ends up being true) they have to commit crimes to survive.

Bullshiat. No one in the US has to steal to survive, it is just easier sometimes.
 
2008-05-17 01:30:41 PM  
Obdicut

i194.photobucket.com
 
2008-05-17 01:31:23 PM  
fat4eyes: jst3p: fat4eyes: It's nice to see that people are keeping up thousand-year-old prejudices.

Has the behavior of the group that is the target of the prejudice changed? "Prejudice" isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it is valid.

Tell that to the people who are wrongly included in the group because of whatever criterion without actually exhibiting the bad behavior associated with the group. Prejudice always seems acceptable as long as you're not wrongly targeted by it.


As a Christian who is more liberal and not at all in favor of laws based on my beliefs, I understand. Getting lumped in with the larger group sucks but it is part of reality. It will never change. Complaining about it is like complaining about gravity.
 
2008-05-17 01:32:22 PM  
MeanJean: Unsung_Hero
On a more serious note - Gypsy/Romani culture is parasitic. I can hate the culture without hating individuals of the ethnic group who have disowned it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22jewish+culture%22+parasitic&hl=en&safe=off&st a rt=0&sa=N

You were saying?


I didn't follow your link, but I would actually say that some of the reason for historical treatment of Jews is their treatment of the rest of the world. Many Jewish cultures (and there's definitely more than one) don't tolerate any meaningful integration or interaction with surrounding cultures. Any time that happens, there will be mistrust and hatred from the outsiders. We're all primates, after all.

Having said that, I've met plenty of Jews who integrate perfectly well into their communities without losing their own culture. The Roma, not so much.

In addition, Jews are known for setting up shop and working hard to 'win the game' according the local rules even when those rules are specifically written to put them at a disadvantage. The Roma are known for passing through and abusing the hell out of the rules. Very different situations.
 
2008-05-17 01:32:24 PM  
Not to jump on the bandwagon or anything, but I was the victim of an attempted pickpocketing in Spain by a Gypsy. I only avoided it because my friend told me how it happened to him 6 months earlier.

I really don't want to discriminate against Gypsies, but the local police can make it very clear that criminal behavior is not acceptable by cracking down extremely hard on any ethnic group.
 
2008-05-17 01:32:38 PM  
Seriously, send the farking gypsies to israel......

the gypsies will drive away the jews with their tears, then the palestinians can bomb the hell out of the gypsies...


everybody wins
 
2008-05-17 01:34:14 PM  
The thing I find most fascinating about the gypsies is their affinity for writing and performing smoking, alpha channel music.

I think most european gypsy haters will agree that the music is simply some of the best.
 
2008-05-17 01:35:07 PM  
When I was in Poland, my (Polish) boyfriend was very good at keeping the Roma away from us / me. One day, we got separated on the street in Warsaw, and immediately I was surrounded by Roma women and children. A German woman and her son cursed them in Polish, and they scattered. If you've never been surrounded by people who were intent upon mugging you in broad daylight, it's a surreal experience that I don't recommend.

One simply does not see Roma men during the day. They stay hidden to maximize the begging that the women and children are doing. After all, no one is going to give an able bodied man a handout, but crying women and children usually can get money. They pinch or slap their babies to make them cry loudly when they see tourists coming.
 
2008-05-17 01:38:43 PM  
http://www.cbc.ca/newsinreview/dec97/gypsies/gypsy.html

A nomadic lifestyle is usually the main image of the Roma that most people have, despite the fact that most Roma live in permanent housing as other Europeans do.

You can all go straight to hell.
 
2008-05-17 01:38:48 PM  
Nicotinus: Blue

Hell, that was my first thought as well! Which means I watched Angel waaaaaaaay too much.
 
2008-05-17 01:40:11 PM  
OK, I can confidently state that I am not in any way a racist, nor do I look down on anyone for their culture and/ or beliefs.

That being said, I have had dealings,(as a LEO), with the Rom, and I was left with a bad taste in my mouth.

As to the assertion that criminal behavior is part of their culture, I agree. One of the nastiest beating deaths I have ever seen was administered by Rom men on a Rom who had "gone straight."

He was deemed a disgrace to his people. I heard this from several Rom, who stated that it was a "good thing to have happened."
 
2008-05-17 01:41:56 PM  
jonnypeh: the Romanians probably hate them the most. giving them a bad name and so on.

Yes, yes we do. And we're getting a kick out of the rest of the gypsy-infested world now that you made us treat our gypsies nice and let them have Visas and shiat.

Enjoy your fail and AIDS, gypsy-lovers.
 
2008-05-17 01:42:44 PM  
How about 'culturecide'?

Find a gypsy teaching their kid to steal? Take the kid away and send them to a foster home. Put the parent in jail.

Find a gypsy binding a kid's foot, or slapping/pinching a baby to make them cry for the begging benefits? Take the kid away and send them to a foster home. Put the parent in jail.

The longer the kid's in a foster home (hopefully one of the nice ones where they're not abusing the kids...) the longer they're exposed to a different culture from the inside, and the more likely they'll learn there are options.

The longer the parent is in jail, the less time they have to breed kids to raise in an unacceptable culture.

It's a bloody awful thing to do, but it might work.
 
2008-05-17 01:44:25 PM  
MeanJean: You can all go straight to hell.

That you for this lesson in tolerance. I shall put this into practice the next time I see a gypsy, and send him straight to hell.
 
2008-05-17 01:45:54 PM  
Unsung_Hero: How about 'culturecide'?

Find a gypsy teaching their kid to steal? Take the kid away and send them to a foster home. Put the parent in jail.

Find a gypsy binding a kid's foot, or slapping/pinching a baby to make them cry for the begging benefits? Take the kid away and send them to a foster home. Put the parent in jail.

The longer the kid's in a foster home (hopefully one of the nice ones where they're not abusing the kids...) the longer they're exposed to a different culture from the inside, and the more likely they'll learn there are options.

The longer the parent is in jail, the less time they have to breed kids to raise in an unacceptable culture.

It's a bloody awful thing to do, but it might work.


Sounds an awful lot like what the BIA attempted in the Rez.

Didn't work out as planned.
 
2008-05-17 01:45:59 PM  
Unsung_Hero: Find a gypsy teaching their kid to steal?

Unsung_Hero: Find a gypsy binding a kid's foot

Where are all these "gypsy hunters" going to come from?
 
2008-05-17 01:46:53 PM  
MeanJean: http://www.cbc.ca/newsinreview/dec97/gypsies/gypsy.html

The CBC puts out PC propaganda. It's about as left wing as I can tolerate without throwing up.

Now, if you want to change my mind, show me a thorough study of the Roma in Europe. % 'known to the police', % nomadic, % with regular employment, % on government assistance, etc.
 
2008-05-17 01:47:09 PM  
z_gringo: Unsung_Hero: Find a gypsy teaching their kid to steal?

Unsung_Hero: Find a gypsy binding a kid's foot

Where are all these "gypsy hunters" going to come from?


Reality TV.
 
2008-05-17 01:48:59 PM  
z_gringo: Unsung_Hero: Find a gypsy teaching their kid to steal?

Unsung_Hero: Find a gypsy binding a kid's foot

Where are all these "gypsy hunters" going to come from?


I figure it's regular police work using existing laws. I know in my part of the world we have laws against 'contributing to the delinquency of a minor' and we have a governmental body that will take custody of children if the parents are found to be unfit.
 
2008-05-17 01:52:11 PM  
space_cadet_28: There are gypsies in the US too. Rented out a house and they had several families in there and they maliciously trashed the place.
Why can't we all get along?



One of my housemate's uncles got kidnapped by gypsies when he was a little kid in Massachusetts. His family all got their guns and went to the gypsy house and held a few of them at gunpoint until they gave the kid back.

/welcome to america gyppos
 
2008-05-17 01:53:52 PM  
Wait, I read the stories about gypsies kidnapping children but what for? Why would they want the children?
 
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