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(Reason Magazine)   One of the worst railroadings in history, courtesy of the War on Drugs. That's some really fine police work there, Lou   (reason.com) divider line 421
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40475 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2008 at 6:30 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-05-08 07:13:57 PM
Flying Lasagna Monster: If you point a gun at a cop, you're gonna get shot. End of story. I'm glad he got locked up. That's one less dealer (or potential dealer) off of the streets. We have to protect our kids from the scourge of drugs. Whatever it takes.

2/10. Nice try though. The ending sentence gave you away.
 
2008-05-08 07:14:36 PM
Flying Lasagna Monster: If you point a gun at a cop, you're gonna get shot. End of story. I'm glad he got locked up. That's one less dealer (or potential dealer) off of the streets. We have to protect our kids from the scourge of drugs. Whatever it takes.

This has to be a troll.
 
2008-05-08 07:14:48 PM
Flying Lasagna Monster:If you point a gun at a cop, you're gonna get shot. End of story. I'm glad he got locked up. That's one less dealer (or potential dealer) off of the streets. We have to protect our kids from the scourge of drugs. Whatever it takes.

Not bad, but a little too obvious. You should have stopped about 1/2 way through. Also tacking on a "think of the children" is just over the top.
 
2008-05-08 07:15:27 PM
rppp01a: I am ashamed to be an american. Utterly ashamed. Again.

And yes, we do have 1/4 of the worlds prisoners within our borders. Freedom and Democracy, indeed.


Don't be ashamed. Ever. Be ashamed of your fellow Americans, absolutely. But to be ashamed of America is to be ashamed of the principals of which this country was formed, not of what the country became. I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times:

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

--Thomas Jefferson

I don't condone riots and what-not.. but being in the military, my job is protect the Constitution. Unfortunately, our Constitution is being stomped by on our representatives, and those who are sworn to uphold the law. Do I therefore continue taking orders from those that contradict my beliefs/duty, or go against them, and restore that which is threatened?

/a pickle, indeed..
 
2008-05-08 07:15:34 PM
Wow....

Someone get Obama on this
 
2008-05-08 07:16:26 PM
There's a simple solution to this, although it's unpleasant for everyone involved...

Defend yourself.

If you're truly a law-abiding citizen, and somebody breaks into your house in the middle of the night, no matter what they're screaming, shoot them. farking defend yourself, your family, and your home.

It will be unfortunate but illustrative in the 1% of instances where that breaking, entering, weapon-wielding, and shouting crazy farker ultimately turns out to be a police officer trying to roll over an innocent person.

If police realize that their 'subjects' no longer are going to tuck their tails an accept being preyed upon as part of the 'war on drugs' bullshiat, they'll start saving the no-knocks for the targets they're SURE are worth the risk. Which is the idea in the first place.
 
2008-05-08 07:18:33 PM
bighairyguy: I'm surprised some do-gooder lawyer hasn't jumped up to represent him for free.

Do-gooder lawyer? Where do ya find of them?
 
2008-05-08 07:18:56 PM
MrCab: Wow....

Someone get Obama on this


cops don't like black people
 
2008-05-08 07:19:14 PM
I don't think the term 'railroading' really means what it used to.. this is now a daily occurrence.

As for the IDIOT that said If you point a gun at a cop, you're gonna get shot. if you believe everyone has a high level of ESP, YOU ARE the one that needs locked up. RTFA, no knock entry.
 
2008-05-08 07:19:25 PM
nobodycaneatfiftyeggs: Do-gooder lawyer? Where do ya find of them?

The ACLU.
 
2008-05-08 07:19:34 PM
Cops who break the law like this need to go to jail or at least be fired. It needs to be a top down thing, starting with the chief and going all the way down to the bozo who kicks in the door. If the greenest of green cops can't know right from wrong and say no, then we have the wrong police force.

I really hope we can stop the slide into a gestapo state before that becomes impossible. Maybe it already is.

To the Second Ammendment will save me from tyranny people; just how do you plan on defending yourself if you end up being raided like this? You'll be one against many, with you probably being totally unprepared and the many being very prepared, coming when they choose to.
 
2008-05-08 07:19:42 PM
Okay, folks. If you're so pissed off, what're going to do about it? Are you going to vote for a Sheriff who won't investigate drugs? Will you vote for a mayor who who tacitly [sic] approves of drug use?

Will you raise your taxes to raise the wage of the police so that the intelligent, thoughtful, and compassionate men you seem to want in your police forces actually apply? I routinely vote in favor of police levies for that very reason. Until you do so, all you'll get are schoolyard bullies and strongmen incapable of any other occupation.

And I'm glad you've finally realized that Justice is entirely subjective. Since it's run by humans, it won't get any better then human. But, the only thing worse then imperfect Justice is Anarchy, so...
 
2008-05-08 07:20:14 PM
sp86: Darwinism at its finest.

Not really. Most drug users never die becuase of drugs. Deaths due to illegal drug use are fairly rare. If they weren't, we'd have lots of lawyers, accountants and others dropping dead all the time.
 
2008-05-08 07:20:54 PM
Befuddled: To the Second Ammendment will save me from tyranny people; just how do you plan on defending yourself if you end up being raided like this? You'll

My guns aren't "broken"
 
2008-05-08 07:21:30 PM
This story sounds a little too one-sided to be true. I don't think the guy should have been shot multiple times, but I have a hard time buying his "totally innocent" claim...especially when you think about the "broken" gun and "jewelry" scales and baggies.
 
2008-05-08 07:21:59 PM
RoxtarRyan: To avoid such things as this, I recommend the Ultimate Lock (new window).

-Takes up to 8,000lbs of pressure
-Renders raids useless unless you drive a truck through the door
-Can't be kicked in


I saw something on Future Weapons that would blast a human size hole through concrete or cinder block. It was fairly inexpensive and all it used was a small amount of explosives and water. I am too lazy to look it up right now.

My point is... if these guys want to gain entry to your house there is not a deadbolt in the world that will stop them.

Why not do what we have done for hundreds of years and rely on the Constitution to protect us from unreasonable search and seizure? Of course it would mean not giving the government a free pass for things like this.
 
2008-05-08 07:22:10 PM
FTA

The police obtained a no-knock warrant for Ingle's home about three weeks prior to the raid...


Judge, we need this warrant... immediately...the house has...hmmm...drugs...."crack cocaine"...scribble scribble..."METHAMPHETAMINE", ya that's the ticket, methamphetamine
and who ever lives there is a terrorist bad guy druggie and ...dangerous, yup whoever lives there must be dangerous...sign here... we know what we're doing is right
 
2008-05-08 07:22:13 PM
WhyteRaven74: sp86: Darwinism at its finest.

Not really. Most drug users never die becuase of drugs. Deaths due to illegal drug use are fairly rare. If they weren't, we'd have lots of lawyers, accountants and others dropping dead all the time.


Social Darwinism guy, more weed for the smart ones.

Which paradoxically makes them the dumb ones ...

In turn leaving more weed for the next smart ones.

The circle of life. Or something like that.
 
2008-05-08 07:22:41 PM
HeWhoHasNoName: There's a simple solution to this, although it's unpleasant for everyone involved...

Defend yourself.

If you're truly a law-abiding citizen, and somebody breaks into your house in the middle of the night, no matter what they're screaming, shoot them. farking defend yourself, your family, and your home.

It will be unfortunate but illustrative in the 1% of instances where that breaking, entering, weapon-wielding, and shouting crazy farker ultimately turns out to be a police officer trying to roll over an innocent person.

If police realize that their 'subjects' no longer are going to tuck their tails an accept being preyed upon as part of the 'war on drugs' bullshiat, they'll start saving the no-knocks for the targets they're SURE are worth the risk. Which is the idea in the first place.


Not really. They'll just use it as an excuse for more raids, with bigger and more powerful guns, body armor, etc.
 
2008-05-08 07:22:44 PM
Arklop: This story sounds a little too one-sided to be true. I don't think the guy should have been shot multiple times, but I have a hard time buying his "totally innocent" claim...especially when you think about the "broken" gun and "jewelry" scales and baggies.

Well, as far as we know, that's all the "evidence" there is. This evidence does not a drug dealer make.
 
2008-05-08 07:23:05 PM
Kali-Yuga: To anyone involved in law enforcement in any way that is reading this, I sincerely hope you die on the job.

/not a troll


They will probably die while protecting you from some pipe swinging crackhead, leaving behind a family wondering why. And all you have to do for it is pay a few bucks in taxes. Just remember to stop by the grave once in a while & say thank you.
 
2008-05-08 07:23:08 PM
I didn't read the thread, haven't even finished TFA yet...

If this guy had been working on the car's brakes instead of the stereo (brake fluid), and had camp-stove fuel for weekend camping trips and maybe some cold medicine, he would have been (in Illinois at least) charged with having precursors to meth manufacturing.
 
2008-05-08 07:24:07 PM
RoxtarRyan: I don't condone riots and what-not.. but being in the military, my job is protect the Constitution. Unfortunately, our Constitution is being stomped by on our representatives, and those who are sworn to uphold the law. Do I therefore continue taking orders from those that contradict my beliefs/duty, or go against them, and restore that which is threatened?

I would think that the best option would be some kind of non-violent protest. Probably something more serious, like civil disobedience.

Personally, I was always under the impression that Americans were tough, non-nonsense-taking muthafarkers, but honestly, in the last years it appears someone has spliced sheep DNA into the American public. I don't get it.

Your government should be afraid of YOU, not the other way around. You're doing it wrong.
 
2008-05-08 07:24:10 PM
sp86: Organized crimes will be reduced, actual affect on criminal infractions may vary.

I'd love for you to argue any increase in criminal activity based on legalization of most drugs.

Remember, it is not a valid argument to say "most people who haven't tried drugs will try them (and freak out, do stupid crap, become addicts, etc)"... because no, they won't. Most of the people with a disposition to try drugs (or even abuse them) have already done so. The worst people would do is try pot.

Legalization will create a non black market atmosphere (definition of "organized" crime can vary... tweakers aren't organized, but often deal with people who are tied to some small-market to large-market groups). It will lower prices, it will reduce the chance of spreading disease via IV needles, and take away the stigma and hiding necessary in the current legal situation. If drugs are legal (obviously, it wouldn't be legal to drive high, and you can be fired for doing them at work, etc), then there's going to be less of a stigma associated with their purchase, and people are going to typically obtain them through honest means. And addicts, instead if spiraling out of control, COULD GET HELP and not lose any future opportunity to obtain a decent job.

Go ahead, keep some drugs illegal. But in most cases, this entire nation would be better off without the drug war.
 
2008-05-08 07:24:18 PM
I can't wait until people feel compelled to use surveilance against one of these corrupt bastards. Hopefully then, there will be a flood of proof on how cops constantly abuse their power.

You know you're living in a nice place when the cops are just another faction among all the gangs.
 
2008-05-08 07:24:58 PM
RoxtarRyan: To avoid such things as this, I recommend the Ultimate Lock (new window).

I work for a lock company, so I'm getting a kick out of your reply. That's a very nice lock, but it's not going to stop anyone coming through the windows. It might be the shiatty photography, but I can't see a key cylinder on the inside, which would mean it's not really a deadbolt, nor would it prevent anyone already inside the house opening the door.
 
2008-05-08 07:25:03 PM
Arklop: This story sounds a little too one-sided to be true. I don't think the guy should have been shot multiple times, but I have a hard time buying his "totally innocent" claim...especially when you think about the "broken" gun and "jewelry" scales and baggies.

1 - Reason magazine, and the author in particular, are well regarded in this arena of reporting. They aren't liars, and while certainly biased, don't report untrue things that they know to be untrue.

2 - There were ZERO drugs found in the raid. ZERO. Don'tcha think if the guy were dealing, they'd find drugs along with the uncarefully hidden paraphernalia?

3 - They had a no-knock warrant, a type of warrant the Supreme Court has ruled that "police must show case-specific evidence of exigent circumstances in order to be issued a no-knock warrant." The warrant in this case had no such evidence. If he were a blatant drug dealer, wouldn't this be pretty easy to supply to a judge?
 
2008-05-08 07:25:11 PM
Howser: Kali-Yuga: To anyone involved in law enforcement in any way that is reading this, I sincerely hope you die on the job.

/not a troll

They will probably die while protecting you from some pipe swinging crackhead, leaving behind a family wondering why. And all you have to do for it is pay a few bucks in taxes. Just remember to stop by the grave once in a while & say thank you.


Cops generally don't die protecting members of the public. They generally cower outside until it's over, then they go in (see Columbine, etc.)
 
2008-05-08 07:25:18 PM
from the website (not me)
Link (Pops)


"This is Tiffney Forrester, the sister of Tracy Ingle. Thank you to all of you for seeing the outrage that has occured. My brother is not perfect, as none of us are, but he is a good man with a kind heart. He has never in his life been accused of anything to do with drugs or violence.
Arkansas is still a "good Ol boy" state with a horribly corrupt Judicial system. The only way Tracy can win is with Public Outrage. Please feel free to send his story to any person or organization you feel might be able to help.

Donations, cards, letters cand be send to:
The November Coalition/ November.Org
Tracy Ingle Family c/o Tiffney Forrester
or
mysouth­er­nb­re­eze[nospam-﹫-backwards]li­amto­h*com
or directly at:
4024 Franklin Road
Pittsburgh, PA 15214

All correspondence will be answered and we are so very grateful for your support.
Thank you,
Tiffney Forrester"
 
2008-05-08 07:25:32 PM
poot_rootbeer: Forgive me if I don't take a blogger's coverage of a criminal suspect's side of the story as gospel.

However, if it turns out that the facts as presented are accurate, god damn everyone on that police force.


1.) He could defend himself and get off if the charges are this bogus, why does he need a lawyer?

2.) Upon doing so, he could sue the balls off the PD and be set for life.

3.) Author is sensationalist. Anyone who had their "leg nearly severed" would not be walking two miles on crutches.

/would love to pull the records on this case after the trial and see what the evidence is. Baggies and a scale are not enough to convict without the drugs.
//that said, why did he have a gun and a police scanner? You don't think his sister would lie for him?

///shenanigans all around
 
2008-05-08 07:25:56 PM
With all the good crack cocaine does for the world, why are these cops so zealous?
 
2008-05-08 07:26:04 PM
He didn't point a gun at a cop.

If you enter my home uninvited, you're an intruder until you identify yourself as a cop.

Even then, I thought you'd said "mop".
 
2008-05-08 07:26:19 PM
If the officers who shot him were truly afraid for their lives, there were have way more than 4 shots.
 
2008-05-08 07:27:04 PM
Howser: They will probably die while protecting you from some pipe swinging crackhead, leaving behind a family wondering why. And all you have to do for it is pay a few bucks in taxes. Just remember to stop by the grave once in a while & say thank you.

I know how to defend myself just fine thanks, without having to rely on some asshole cop for my protection.

Do an informal survey, ask some people when the last time a cop actually helped them in any way. Now ask those same people when the last time some pig on a power trip harassed them in any way.
 
2008-05-08 07:27:06 PM
Shaggy_C, whenever you arrive, this is exactly the kind of shiat I was talking about a few days ago.
 
2008-05-08 07:27:44 PM
Steigen: My guns aren't "broken"

Do you have them all the time? Do you ever sleep or leave your house? Do you have body armor? Do you have rounds that can defeat body armor? Do you have night vision? Can you shoot like you are in the Matrix, hitting a half dozen targets while dodging bullets from those targets? You might get one cop, maybe two before you get dead.
 
2008-05-08 07:28:13 PM
Since the police department here in New Orleans is understaffed and underfunded, cops here do this kind of thing here routinely. In fact, its worse.

When cops here get an anonymous tip about drug activity, they don't have the time or energy to bother with any investigation or police work. No, they act on the tip by simply breaking into your house, they drag you outside, and they threaten to tear the walls out of the house until they find what they are looking for... unless you'll sign a form consenting to a search of the house.

Afterwhich, of course, you are completely and totally at the mercy of the system, and therefore duly farked.

Welcome to the modern police state, America. Brought to you courtesy of decades of unfettered Law&Order machismo anti-drug legislation.
 
2008-05-08 07:28:33 PM
Oh and the main reason marijuana was made illegal, and one of the main reasons cocaine was made illegal? Blatant racism. There were copious news stories at the time that said little but "OMG it makes the negores uppity!". The head of the AMA testified to Congress there was no medical reason to make marijuana illegal. And naturally was soundly ignored by Congress and criticized in the press.
 
2008-05-08 07:28:57 PM
Befuddled: Do you have them all the time? Do you ever sleep or leave your house? Do you have body armor? Do you have rounds that can defeat body armor? Do you have night vision?

yes.

Befuddled: You might get one cop, maybe two before you get dead.

works for me.
 
2008-05-08 07:29:06 PM
modelcitizen: poot_rootbeer: Forgive me if I don't take a blogger's coverage of a criminal suspect's side of the story as gospel.

However, if it turns out that the facts as presented are accurate, god damn everyone on that police force.

1.) He could defend himself and get off if the charges are this bogus, why does he need a lawyer?

2.) Upon doing so, he could sue the balls off the PD and be set for life.

3.) Author is sensationalist. Anyone who had their "leg nearly severed" would not be walking two miles on crutches.

/would love to pull the records on this case after the trial and see what the evidence is. Baggies and a scale are not enough to convict without the drugs.
//that said, why did he have a gun and a police scanner? You don't think his sister would lie for him?

///shenanigans all around


Why would he have a broken gun and a broken police scanner?
I think he might of used the broken gun as a hammer, and to kill flies, and he used the police scanner as a paper weight.
 
2008-05-08 07:29:20 PM
puffy999: [Snip]

I didn't say they'd increase, but legalization is not the magic bullet you smelly hippies make it out to be.
 
2008-05-08 07:30:03 PM
Ron Paul Revere: nobodycaneatfiftyeggs: Do-gooder lawyer? Where do ya find of them?

The ACLU Movies.
 
2008-05-08 07:30:35 PM
Questionable Warrant: Not acceptable.

Lighting the suspect up after he draws on you: Acceptable.
(His need for self-defense intersects the same need by the police. Ignoring larger, policy-scale arguments, this situation was inevitable.)

Covering up the mistakes after the fact: NOT COOL.

The way I see it, the asshat who drew up the warrant should be forced to cover this guy's medical and legal expenses. But the lack of transparency here is the most disturbing to me. You correct errors by knowing about them, not by ignoring them.
 
2008-05-08 07:30:49 PM
The war on drugs was a crock of BS cooked up by Nixon anyways.
Linkie-pops anyone?
P&T BS!: War on Drugs (1/3)
P&T BS!: War on Drugs (2/3)
P&T BS!: War on Drugs (3/3)

//Doesn't do drugs, not even aspirin unless prescribed. Just a fan of The constitution, liberties and the ability to call America a "free nation". :-\
 
2008-05-08 07:31:02 PM
modelcitizen: that said, why did he have a gun and a police scanner? You don't think his sister would lie for him?

My grandmother has a police scanner. She's never spent time in jail (save visits to people), doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs, and doesn't have a problem with the police.

I guess she should be in prison, because she has a scanner, a gun, probably a scale, and some baggies.

modelcitizen: 1.) He could defend himself and get off if the charges are this bogus, why does he need a lawyer?

Fancy, that... often, judges won't take someone too seriously if they're defending themselves from something other than a traffic ticket (and even then, they often won't...).
 
2008-05-08 07:31:05 PM
modelcitizen: why did he have a gun and a police scanner?

Lots of people have guns, lots of people have police scanners. The posession of these two items demonstrates absolutely nothing nefarious.
 
2008-05-08 07:31:13 PM
If this story is true, the way the story was written, then there is something seriously wrong with the police department. But I have a feeling that there's a lot of facts that will come to light eventually that may paint a different picture. I wouldn't be surprised if we never hear more about this story due to "jumping to conclusions" on the part of the reporter. We shall see, I suppose.
 
2008-05-08 07:31:22 PM
Link (new window)

Ryan Frederick made the mistake of growing Japanese Maples indoors for his gardening hobby. Japanese Maples, you see, look a lot like marijuana plants. In early January 2008 someone broke into his garage. Three days later a police tactical team, acting on a tip from an unnamed informant (almost certainly the prowler), raided his house around 9PM at night. Neighbors who were on their front porch across the street say they didn't hear the police declare their identity before starting to kick in his front door. Afraid the robbers were back, waking from a deep sleep (he works nights) to the ruckus of his dogs barking and his door being bashed in, Ryan Frederick fired twice through the door killing Detective Jarrod Shivers, then surrendered to police after calling 911 and being informed that the men outside were law enforcement. Police claim they announced themselves before taking the door down and that Frederick knew he was firing on cops.

A bunch of Japanese Maples and a few ounces of pot were found in Ryan Frederick's residence. He has been charged with first degree murder, and is being held without bond.
 
2008-05-08 07:32:02 PM
WhyteRaven74: Oh and the main reason marijuana was made illegal, and one of the main reasons cocaine was made illegal? Blatant racism. There were copious news stories at the time that said little but "OMG it makes the negores uppity!". The head of the AMA testified to Congress there was no medical reason to make marijuana illegal. And naturally was soundly ignored by Congress and criticized in the press.

William Randolph Hearst and Yellow journalism. Hemp would have really cut into all his forestry holdings for newsprint. That and he hated Mexicans.
 
2008-05-08 07:32:10 PM
sp86: puffy999: [Snip]

I didn't say they'd increase, but legalization is not the magic bullet you smelly hippies make it out to be.


Who said it was? Things would improve in this country, socially AND financially AND legally. But nobody's going to say "everything would be super."
After all, people who make up arguments and twist the words of others still exist.
 
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