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(AP)   CBS News employee who was held hostage for two months is glad that he wasn't being "mortarboarded" in Guantanamo. He didn't seem to be worried about being "gowned" or "diplomaed" in Gitmo   (hosted.ap.org) divider line 224
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8283 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 May 2008 at 7:00 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-05-01 10:33:20 AM
HAMMERTOE: But naked in the cold? Get a dose of your own reality. You're talking about the equator here. A globally warmed equator, no less.

Ummm... Abu Ghraib is about the same latitude as Arkansas, and it gets a helluva lot colder there in winter than in Little Rock.

But then again, if you think that Arkansas is near the equator, I can't stop you.
 
2008-05-01 10:38:59 AM
homerjaythompson: How many detainees have died in US custody?

As I stated earlier, not many. Considering the media frenzy regarding "torture" of these "innocents", the media orgy sure to result from the death of one of them would be audible on Jupiter. I've not heard of any.
 
2008-05-01 10:40:11 AM
Antimatter: .....Not to mention, their is a world of difference between fighting a criminal organization and a Nation. Think of it as this: If a member of the bloods murdered a bunch of forign nationals from say, Russia, would russia be allowed to Torture and bomb american targets? Could they kidnap americans suspected of being affliated with the bloods, send them to a thrid world nation, impreison and torture them for months, then quietly execute them?
Because thats the situation we are in here. AQ is not a nation, it's a semi organized gang that tries to interfer with politics. Thats it.


Interesting concept. Too bad you didn't think it through. The correct CONTEXT might be something like this:

The Los Angeles South Street Crips gun down seveal russian tourists in borad daylight on the streets of LA. They kidnap several more, torture and then kill them, posting their heads on walls around LA.

Local, State and Federal authorities - through a combination of fear, apathy, and being on Crip payrolls - DO NOTHING (that's the correct context). The Feds, in fact, tell the Russian government to shove it.

In a case like that - yeah, the Russians WOULD have the right to interfere in all the ways you mention. No one else is doing anything about it! And if I were a simple citizen in the middle of that kind of chaos, it is evewn money that I would welcome their interference.
 
2008-05-01 10:41:01 AM
Ok...uh, not to make huge assumptions or fight on one's behalf, but, I'm gonna interject my interpretation here for HAMMERTOE since he hasn't been back for over an hour...

I think he meant Gitmo was in the equatorial region. Not Baghdad. Contextually speaking, that's what I read from it. So...I'm just saying...for those of you who seem confused/mildly annoyed about this(THX 1138, Magorn, Pantload, et al).

Original for context:

HAMMERTOE: Alphax: I suppose you'd rather be raped by soldiers, left naked in the cold, and subjected to electrical shocks, all on the theory that you might get out alive someday.

Sorry, but you lost me at naked in the cold. You nearly lost me at raped by soldiers, but in this day of don't ask/ don't tell, who knows? But naked in the cold? Get a dose of your own reality. You're talking about the equator here. A globally warmed equator, no less. Where does cold enter the equation?
 
2008-05-01 10:41:24 AM
I was referring to Gitmo, not AG, as the journalist was. I am well aware that Iraq isn't equatorial.

Context, people.
 
2008-05-01 10:42:02 AM
Cerebral Ballsy 2008-05-01 10:23:40 AM
bookman: Lot's of people missing a very simple conceptual point (once again proving that liberals are context-challenged): people who are not US citizens are not covered by the rights guaranteed in the Constitution. It's NOT a hard concept to follow!

Now if you want to EXTEND those same rights to everyone in the whole damned world, then be prepared for endless war as we - like Napolean's France - attempt to extend the priciples of revolution to the entire world.

Wait wait wait.. what about people who are not citiznes of the US.. are they still covered by the geneva Convention? Because THAT'S THE ISSUE.

Once again - context. The Geneva Convention addresses treatment of enemy SOLDIERS. Like in dudes/dudettes wearing uniforms, who are members of a formal military organization, have recognized rank, etc. By no stretch of the imagination (unless one is context-challenged) can the people in gitmo be considered to be soldiers.

I don't think that the Constitution applies only to citizens of the United States.....It applies to anyone in the U.S., regardless of their status. I thought that was the whole point of shipping the terrorist type dudes off to Gitmo where they wouldn't be on U.S. soil.....
 
2008-05-01 10:43:08 AM
HAMMERTOE: 2008-05-01 10:38:59 AM

Oh, snap. I fail. Welcome back, HAMMERTOE...sorry to step into your conversation.

/the shame
 
2008-05-01 10:43:10 AM
hellolove

My bad, im just a caveman so you electronic picture scare and confuse me.
 
2008-05-01 10:43:17 AM
Thx, hellolove. I had some work to do.
 
2008-05-01 10:43:22 AM
bookman: people who are not US citizens are not covered by the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

That's a good one. Got anything else to pull out of your ass? Other than rights which are specifically spelled out as citizen-specific rights, like the right to vote, collect social security, etc, the Constitution applies to ALL people under the jurisdiction of the USA. There is no "second-tier" of parallel but lesser laws which applies to non-citizens.

Or do you believe that during Prohibition only Americans were banned from drinking alcohol, and any non-American in the country was well within their rights to drink, since the law wouldn't have applied to them?
 
2008-05-01 10:46:13 AM
Even if that means your family or friends get caught in the crossfire?

What if they picked up one of your family, as they were friends with one of those gang members, even losely, and were 'suspected' of being more than just friends, even if the evidence were derived by tortureing one of the gang members.

Is it still a 'welcomed' action then?

And lets swap out the bloods for something that was a little more powerful, like the mafia or even the old school klan. Would it still be okay?
 
2008-05-01 10:46:30 AM
Stupidest headline ever.
 
2008-05-01 10:46:37 AM
THX 1138: Or do you believe that during Prohibition only Americans were banned from drinking alcohol, and any non-American in the country was well within their rights to drink, since the law wouldn't have applied to them?

Dom you believe that prohibition forced all the French wineries to close?
 
2008-05-01 10:48:41 AM
HAMMERTOE: THX 1138: Or do you believe that during Prohibition only Americans were banned from drinking alcohol, and any non-American in the country was well within their rights to drink, since the law wouldn't have applied to them?

Dom you believe that prohibition forced all the French wineries to close?

Thats French Territory, not US soil or bases. This torture is being done on our bases, thats a world of difference.

and what about those people who were American citizens but were abducted and tortured or imprisoned?
 
2008-05-01 10:49:32 AM
I did that to myself in the shower to see just what the hell everyone is yelling about...It is torture. It makes you feel like you cant breath. your mind makes it damn near impossible to breath. easily the worst experience of my life. i couldnt do it for a minute straight. and a Guan they do it for what? five minutes?
 
2008-05-01 10:52:37 AM
HAMMERTOE: Dom you believe that prohibition forced all the French wineries to close?

Read my post again. Actually, you don't need to. I'll reprint the part that you ignored here, in bold:

Other than rights which are specifically spelled out as citizen-specific rights, like the right to vote, collect social security, etc, the Constitution applies to ALL people under the jurisdiction of the USA. There is no "second-tier" of parallel but lesser laws which applies to non-citizens.

So unless French wineries were under the jurisdiction of American law, your response had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
 
2008-05-01 10:54:00 AM
KangTheMad: I did that to myself in the shower to see just what the hell everyone is yelling about...It is torture. It makes you feel like you cant breath. your mind makes it damn near impossible to breath. easily the worst experience of my life. i couldnt do it for a minute straight. and a Guan they do it for what? five minutes?

Ok. Fair enough. Now cut off your head, and tell us which one is worse.
 
2008-05-01 10:56:03 AM
Antimatter: and what about those people who were American citizens but were abducted and tortured or imprisoned?

Who exactly are you talking about?

Padilla saw his day in court, it was f'ed up and I don;t agree but he got his day.

As for people caught out of the US, once you take up arms agianst the US in a foreign country your citizenship is forfeit. fark em.
 
2008-05-01 10:56:09 AM
HAMMERTOE: KangTheMad: I did that to myself in the shower to see just what the hell everyone is yelling about...It is torture. It makes you feel like you cant breath. your mind makes it damn near impossible to breath. easily the worst experience of my life. i couldnt do it for a minute straight. and a Guan they do it for what? five minutes?

Ok. Fair enough. Now cut off your head, and tell us which one is worse.


SNAP!

/i LOL'd
 
2008-05-01 10:56:51 AM
craig328: Dude spends 2 months as a captive, has little to eat over the final 2 weeks, at one point thinks he's being driven out into the desert to be executed...and yet the first thing that falls out of his yap is politics...and his comment is chock full of dumbass to boot.

I interpret that comment to say that he expected to be waterboarded in retaliation. Which isn't such a stretch, seeing as the administration's rationale for NOT refraining from waterboarding, is that the people they do it to 'don't follow procedures' when it comes to the Geneva Convention, and that 'since they don't follow it, we don't have to either, neener, neener, neener'.
 
2008-05-01 10:57:09 AM
liam76: once you take up arms agianst the US in a foreign country your citizenship is forfeit.

Huh? Which law says that?
 
2008-05-01 10:58:00 AM
on the whole i would prefer....PUNCHING YOU IN THE EAR! *takes a hard right hook* BAM!
 
2008-05-01 10:58:33 AM
liam76: Antimatter: and what about those people who were American citizens but were abducted and tortured or imprisoned?

Who exactly are you talking about?

Padilla saw his day in court, it was f'ed up and I don;t agree but he got his day.

As for people caught out of the US, once you take up arms agianst the US in a foreign country your citizenship is forfeit. fark em.



Yes, after he was illegaly detained in military court, and had god knows what done to him to get the evidence.

and he's just one of the ones we were allowed to know about. there are probabaly dozens if not hundreds more floating around in rendition or other illegal prisons or detainments.

and thats not counting on the ones were were just killed outright by the cia and the like.
 
2008-05-01 10:59:32 AM
THX 1138: Which law says that?

Treason covers it.
 
2008-05-01 11:00:47 AM
KangTheMad: on the whole i would prefer....PUNCHING YOU IN THE EAR! *takes a hard right hook* BAM!

i also LOL'd at this.

/damn, i need to leave this thread.
 
2008-05-01 11:04:37 AM
THX 1138: Other than rights which are specifically spelled out as citizen-specific rights, like the right to vote, collect social security, etc, the Constitution applies to ALL people under the jurisdiction of the USA. There is no "second-tier" of parallel but lesser laws which applies to non-citizens.

Point taken. Where do members of enemy militias fall "under the jurisdiction of the USA"?. I think the parallel laws that usually apply in that case are called the "Geneva Convention", which coincidentally, this enemy doesn't adhere to. Not that it really applies, as has already been pointed out. These are criminals, in another country. The "punishment" we are meting out is far less than the law of their own country provides for, and far less savage than the treatment our people receive at their hands.

Granted, our methods are rough, but then, you don't wear a tutu when playing football.
 
2008-05-01 11:06:41 AM
KangTheMad: on the whole i would prefer....PUNCHING YOU IN THE EAR! *takes a hard right hook* BAM!

/ducks; performs "monkey steals the peach"/
 
2008-05-01 11:09:09 AM
Yes, I fight dirty.
 
2008-05-01 11:09:29 AM
Antimatter: Yes, after he was illegaly detained in military court, and had god knows what done to him to get the evidence.

and he's just one of the ones we were allowed to know about. there are probabaly dozens if not hundreds more floating around in rendition or other illegal prisons or detainments.

and thats not counting on the ones were were just killed outright by the cia and the like.


Wait, so you are basing your argument on immaginary people who are getting kidnapped all the time in the US? Grow up.

THX 1138: Huh? Which law says that?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001481----000-.html

Now it only refers to serving in military of foreign state, but if it went to court I am sure anyone in al-queda (or any other anti-us terrorist group) would lose
 
2008-05-01 11:09:54 AM
ElwoodPDowd: "I was pleased I wasn't being mortarboarded[sic] in Guantanamo or being held for six and a half years like an Al-Jazeera cameraman, for instance," he said.

This guy has some really twisted priorities. "Well, I was just held captive, but I'll go ahead and do some America bashing while I'm in the limelight."

Daniel Pearl wasn't held at Guantanimo either, you asshat. Do you think he is grateful?


Well said sir.
 
2008-05-01 11:10:02 AM
nopokerface: THX 1138: Which law says that?

Treason covers it.
In some ways, yes, in others, no. Really depends on if they can get the two witness thing, and the nature of the support, if any.

And these people aren't being tried for treason, but terrorism, probabaly because the methods used to extract info from them wouldn't fly in civil court. thats why the congress had to try to make some new third court system thats not anywhere in the constatution, and redefine several terms to excuse the behavior of heir bush and co.
 
2008-05-01 11:10:38 AM
*morphs into "Iron Balls Miginty"*

*you perform steve martin impersonation*

SHOOT THE CANS!!!!

I strap you to something that the spaceballs crew would refer to as "MR. Sexual Torture Device"
 
2008-05-01 11:11:28 AM
liam76: THX 1138: Huh? Which law says that?

(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality-
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or

3 A would make a good argument, but 2 is case closed if they joined a terrorist group that was anti US.
 
2008-05-01 11:11:51 AM
Motherboarded?

ASUS or ABIT? *SLAP*

ASUS or ABIT??? *SLAP*

ASUS or ABIT!!!??? *slap*

truly a terrible torture method.
 
2008-05-01 11:12:42 AM
Ha! Kang, you just made my fave farker list. I love this place!
 
2008-05-01 11:13:09 AM
KangTheMad: *morphs into "Iron Balls Miginty"*

*you perform steve martin impersonation*

SHOOT THE CANS!!!!

I strap you to something that the spaceballs crew would refer to as "MR. Sexual Torture Device"


Whoa, I didn't realize how prophetic my previous post about BDSM would be.

/you guys rock...i LOL'd again. Fark is on a roll today.
 
2008-05-01 11:14:07 AM
Well, I do like being a defective shooter...But i wasnt born a poor black child.

BUT I LIKE MY THERMOS!!! Kang's got the preciouuusssss!!!!
 
2008-05-01 11:18:31 AM
So let me be clear on this - John Walker Lindh is no longer an American citizen?
 
2008-05-01 11:19:23 AM
Antimatter: In some ways, yes, in others, no. Really depends on if they can get the two witness thing, and the nature of the support, if any.

That was in reference to an American citizen taking up arms against the US that someone posted. Not the Gitmo stuff.
 
2008-05-01 11:19:48 AM
hellolove: Ok...uh, not to make huge assumptions or fight on one's behalf, but, I'm gonna interject my interpretation here for HAMMERTOE since he hasn't been back for over an hour...

I think he meant Gitmo was in the equatorial region. Not Baghdad. Contextually speaking, that's what I read from it. So...I'm just saying...for those of you who seem confused/mildly annoyed about this(THX 1138, Magorn, Pantload, et al).

Original for context:

HAMMERTOE: Alphax: I suppose you'd rather be raped by soldiers, left naked in the cold, and subjected to electrical shocks, all on the theory that you might get out alive someday.

Sorry, but you lost me at naked in the cold. You nearly lost me at raped by soldiers, but in this day of don't ask/ don't tell, who knows? But naked in the cold? Get a dose of your own reality. You're talking about the equator here. A globally warmed equator, no less. Where does cold enter the equation?


Okay, which lends him more credibility on the warm part, but not on the geography. Gitmo's still about 22 North latitude, which, IIRC is close to the Tropics,and yes it is failrly warm (not getting much colder than 50F (new window))fairly warm (thanks to the ocean currents) but it is perfectly possible to freeze to death in weather much warmer than that, especially when the CIA is practicig a torture technique called forced hypothermia, where they immobilize you and then wrap you in wet blankets and turn on the AC. Supposedly a few hours of this causes your brain to stop functioning properly and you are allegedly more susecptible to questioning.


However he STILL fails geography the equator runs through the bottom half of South America.
 
2008-05-01 11:21:01 AM
THX 1138: So let me be clear on this - John Walker Lindh is no longer an American citizen?

Not only is he a citizen, he is free. Thanks, judge. They claimed he never actually took up arms against the US, he was just a misguided idealistic kid. Hmmmm, that sounds familiar.
 
F42
2008-05-01 11:31:06 AM
Magorn: the equator runs through the bottom half of South America.

:-|
 
2008-05-01 11:34:11 AM
F42: Magorn: the equator runs through the bottom half of South America.

:-|


No shiat. Faily McFailerson aka Magorn.
 
2008-05-01 11:35:08 AM
zekebullseye: All that Hezbollah propaganda must have sunk in by the sound of him. Seriously, people have a tendency to form a connection with their captors. His was to form an anti-American bias.

Stockholm (sp?) Syndrome.
 
2008-05-01 11:37:07 AM
Magorn: ...the equator runs through the bottom half of South America.

Google maps says, "FAIL!"
 
2008-05-01 11:38:51 AM
someonelse: HAMMERTOE: 1) Divide the number of Al Quaida dead as a result of waterboarding by the number of Americans who have survived decapitation.

2) Take the result and shove it up your misguided liberal ass!

Since there's no remotely reliable way to quantify your absurdly misguided initial statement
, my ass remains free of foreign objects.


How do you think? It's impossible to die of waterboarding barring a heart attack or some freak accident. Beheadings, however, are nearly 99.9% effective in causing death.
 
2008-05-01 11:42:13 AM
loki see loki do: Alphax: Screw you, I'd rather die than go through what's happened at Abu Graib and other places.

You rather die than have a butch broad grin and point at your nads?
You'd rather die than be waterboarded?
You'd rather die than be scared?

Are you farking nuts?


No, not just die, but have your beheading be broadcast to the entire world. That way your mom and dad can watch as a group of militants slice your head off with a pocket knife.

But hey, at least they wouldn't be insensitive to your culture or religion.
 
2008-05-01 11:42:14 AM
Magorn: However he STILL fails geography the equator runs through the bottom half of South America.

Methinks many people are failing geography today...

/last time I checked, Cuba/Carribean are in the tropics...which is otherwise known as the "equatorial region". I'm no cartographer, but, I'm just saying.
 
2008-05-01 11:53:28 AM
hellolove: Methinks many people are failing geography today...

/last time I checked, Cuba/Carribean are in the tropics...which is otherwise known as the "equatorial region". I'm no cartographer, but, I'm just saying.


Since I was piqued by this conversation, I looked it up, and wikipedia provides a handy graphic (new window). Cuba looks to be in the tropics by a nose.

In terms of the whole torture bit. The punishments meted out to detainees at Abu Grahib and Gitmo, for the most part, are far less than the torture and decapitation that is a hallmark of Al Qaeda and other militant factions. Most of our adversaries do forfeit many of the protections provided by the Geneva Convention, because they are non-uniform, irregular forces that hide among civilians (not that I blame them; if they stood up in a uniform they wouldn't last long).

However, it still irks me that we've gotten close even in limited instances. I'm not talking about "naked human pyramid," but the driving people insane and deaths which were, at best, due to serious negligence.

I miss the moral high ground... the middle ground isn't nearly as satisfying.
 
2008-05-01 11:55:25 AM
Magorn: hellolove:


However he STILL fails geography the equator runs through the bottom half of South America.


You mean Northern Half. Please tell me that was a typo.
 
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